Don’t give up on Jeremy Lin

They say that playoff basketball exposes all of a team’s weaknesses.  After Sunday night, I realized that that statement couldn’t be any more true.

The Rockets’ greatest flaw all season had been their lack of interior depth.  Outside of Omer Asik, they really couldn’t count on anyone with any size to give them anything consistently.  And while Jeremy Lin’s shooting has vastly improved over the course of the season, his overall play at the point guard position has been shaky.  It’s been no secret, even dating back to the days of Linsanity, that Lin’s game isn’t particularly refined.

The Rockets will enter tomorrow’s Game 2 with adjustments needed to be made.  Greg Smith, who did little of anything–aside from clogging the lane–will likely see a drastic cut in minutes.  There are those who hope that Lin’s minutes also are reduced.

Lin, on Sunday, was atrocious.  He missed most of his shots, he forced bad passes.  Since he couldn’t blow past his man, he couldn’t do much of anything.  On the other hand, his backup, Patrick Beverley, was the sole bright spot for the team.  But to bench Lin now–as some have proposed–would be foolish.

There’s no harm in benching Smith because it’s unclear whether he fits into the team’s long term plans.  He’s battling for the spot with Donatas Motiejunas and Terrence Jones; Josh Smith, in the summer, might also be an option.

But Lin, presumably, is ‘the man’ at point, locked in for another two years.  If he’s going to be around, if he’s intended as part of the core, he needs to be on the court for the thrashing.  No matter how bad he plays, Lin won’t learn from sitting on the bench.

He needs to understand the flaws in his game by having them exposed, as they were on Sunday.  He needs to see why a point guard must have nuance in his arsenal and must be able to play at different speeds.  He needs to see why he must learn to drive left and why he must learn to be effective even when unable to get a first step on his man.  He needs to see just how far he still needs to go in the area of skill development.

One of my biggest complaints with Kevin McHale this season was his handling of Lin.  If the latter was having a poor game, McHale almost always would bench him in the 4th quarter.  Given that Lin is the only other player than Harden who can get his own shot, the practice was downright short-sighted.  Most good coaches, like Gregg Popovich, take their lumps early in the year, sacrificing some in the present for player development.  If they know they’ll need a guy later, they’ll build him towards that.  McHale didn’t do that.  Predictably, now, when the Rockets have needed Lin, like late in the Laker game, he hasn’t had the confidence to step up.  Lin just deferred to Harden, just like the other players, because he hadn’t been in that position too many times.  He couldn’t learn because he was sitting on the bench.

Hopefully the Rockets won’t make that similar mistake with Lin’s overall playing time.  Beverley needs to play more, but that should come at the expense of the young ‘bigs.’  Lin needs to play now because if he is to be a part of the team’s future, he needs to take the lumps with his teammates.

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Total comments: 764
  • thejohnnygold says 8 months ago

    I'm locking this thread. Nothing good is happening here.

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    It was a joke because both of you are taking stuff too seriously. I'm not a PETA member, but if I decided to take stuff personally using your words that's what I could do. I figured you mentioned that story and your father was speaking about a metaphor, but you didn't say that. Sometimes it's best to not try to pin everything in a negative light.

    but if I decided to take stuff personally using your words that's what I could do?.........do what? get laughed out of Peta's offices :lol:the story was a metaphor....you assumed right. perhaps you have not been reading the exchanges between Buckko and me. in order for reasonable conversation to take place common respect is in order. the mods should have checked this problem long ago. however maybe they chose to let us work thru it. in any case I will not be disrespected and take it laying down. I'm sure you feel the same way. one point to remember in the future is when trying to be a peacemaker you must understand that jokes will probably offend one of the two parties. usually when I embark upon this mission I make a peace statement not offensive to either side. I understand that emotion are already involved and choosing to favor either side will result in bad feelings on the other....just my advise.......take it for what it's worth. I have no problem with you....however you got in the way of me telling Buckko a peace of my mind. it made us get out of whack. I have no problem with you because you understand what proper protocol is. I wish for us to continue to have intelligent conversation without the side stuff, but until me and Buckko reach common ground we have problems to work through. now we may have reach that point today only time will tell

  • timetodienow1234567 says 8 months ago Never watched it. Is it any good?
  • Losthief says 8 months ago

    wow....wierd convo now...anyways...eurbasket starts this week so theres that :D.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 8 months ago It was a joke because both of you are taking stuff too seriously. I'm not a PETA member, but if I decided to take stuff personally using your words that's what I could do. I figured you mentioned that story and your father was speaking about a metaphor, but you didn't say that. Sometimes it's best to not try to pin everything in a negative light.
  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    There are some things normal people keep quiet. Family stories about animal abuse are one of them. Lets get back to basketball. We're veering too far off track. If you two want to keep up your argument email each other.

    animal abuse? I didn't know you were a peta member, however I didn't say I did that I said my father told me a story.....big difference. are you saying I'm not normal? here we are having a conversation about labels and you toss this in. I'm not offended just making a point. the same point I'm making to Buckko.......leave the labels out of it. it's to risky assuming how they will be taken

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    @ Buckko

    my point being.......it doesn't matter what context you use a label in they hurt. just as you have a problem with labels being placed on you so does everyone else. nothing useful can come of the situation once that line has been crossed. now we have common ground. lets see if we can build on it and get past the past

  • timetodienow1234567 says 8 months ago There are some things normal people keep quiet. Family stories about animal abuse are one of them. Lets get back to basketball. We're veering too far off track. If you two want to keep up your argument email each other.
  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    I didn't assume that's what you meant. I just don't want you labeling me as such.

    you mean kinda like you triedlabelingme as crazy or insane?

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    I did not call you a racist. I'm simply making fun of your point that you assumed that's what I meant and responded as such

    I didn't assume that's what you meant. I just don't want you labeling me as such.

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    No, when you refer to a Jlin fan its usually meant as a stupid stereotype and now you're calling me racist through an analogy about animal abuse. Interesting tale.

    I did not call you a racist. I'm simply making fun of your point that you assumed that's what I meant and responded as such

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    So you're saying he's a dog?

    Nope, but the same principal applies to humans and almost anything else.

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    Jermery Lin obsessed Asian? wow......where did that come from. do you believe Lin has only Asian fans? sure he is popular among them, but they are not alone in being fans of his. race has nothing to do with it.....NOTHING. however this reminds me of a story once told to me by my father. he said throw a rock at a pack of dogs and you will know the one you hit because he will yell

    No, when you refer to a Jlin fan its usually meant as a stupid stereotype and now you're calling me racist through an analogy about animal abuse. Interesting tale.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 8 months ago So you're saying he's a dog?
  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    When you refer to a Jlin fan, its usually meant to say you are a Jeremy lin obsessed asian. I am not and I disagree with people who say he's a superstar being held back as I also disagree with people who want to crucify him based off of opinions and being biased. I'm a stats fan.

    Jermery Lin obsessed Asian? wow......where did that come from. do you believe Lin has only Asian fans? sure he is popular among them, but they are not alone in being fans of his. race has nothing to do with it.....NOTHING. however this reminds me of a story once told to me by my father. he said throw a rock at a pack of dogs and you will know the one you hit because he will yell

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    if you like the kid is that not a fan? sure you can be a fan of all those players as I am a fan of most of them. I'mjust not a fanof Lin. then too we weren't discussing the others however we were discussing Lin. I made the reference based on our past conversations about him. I don't get it.....when I talk down about him you come to his defense. now you take it one step further at the mere mention of his name you will defend against accusation that haven't even been made?

    When you refer to a Jlin fan, its usually meant to say you are a Jeremy lin obsessed asian. I am not and I disagree with people who say he's a superstar being held back as I also disagree with people who want to crucify him based off of opinions and being biased. I'm a stats fan.

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    maybe if we had a baseball team worth something it wouldn't be so bad, but the Lastros don't impress me

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    Yeah I agree, that's a good idea. Like how much can you get from a rookie/d-league player with a sample of 5-6 games? Their minutes and positions are even mixed, and some players get to play in only a few games. Canaan didn't get to play at all did he? If summer league was extended to maybe one more month in July we might've gotten a glimpse of his transition to the NBA, make them have something for us to watch

    They wouldn't want to risk injury or overwork your players. But I wouldn't mind to see summer league games focus on players not on our roster like our rookies in Cannan, Covington, Young, and Herinez

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    They need to make summer league an actual season. June July and August. You would e able to evaluate your talent better and give people something to be excited about. It would also help the parity issue with rookies getting lots of experience learning the system and that should help teams like the Bobcats, Magic, Suns, etc...

    I'm not really for summer league being much more than it is now, but agree with you something needs to be done to close the gap on football season and basketball season. this dead time of the year is murder

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    I like the kid for his character and work ethic and I see it would be better for the rockets to keep him than trade him. So apparently that makes me a Jlin fan, should you also call me a Paul George Fan, Harden fan, Parker fan, Duncan Fan, Irving fan, D12, Asik, and Parsons fan...?

    if you like the kid is that not a fan? sure you can be a fan of all those players as I am a fan of most of them. I'mjust not a fanof Lin. then too we weren't discussing the others however we were discussing Lin. I made the reference based on our past conversations about him. I don't get it.....when I talk down about him you come to his defense. now you take it one step further at the mere mention of his name you will defend against accusation that haven't even been made?

  • CC. says 8 months ago

    They need to make summer league an actual season. June July and August. You would e able to evaluate your talent better and give people something to be excited about. It would also help the parity issue with rookies getting lots of experience learning the system and that should help teams like the Bobcats, Magic, Suns, etc...

    Yeah I agree, that's a good idea. Like how much can you get from a rookie/d-league player with a sample of 5-6 games? Their minutes and positions are even mixed, and some players get to play in only a few games. Canaan didn't get to play at all did he? If summer league was extended to maybe one more month in July we might've gotten a glimpse of his transition to the NBA, make them have something for us to watch

  • timetodienow1234567 says 8 months ago They need to make summer league an actual season. June July and August. You would e able to evaluate your talent better and give people something to be excited about. It would also help the parity issue with rookies getting lots of experience learning the system and that should help teams like the Bobcats, Magic, Suns, etc...
  • CC. says 8 months ago

    And the wheel in the sky keeps on turning...

    It's going to be a long two months, why couldn't the preseason at least be in September....

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    This is what happens to Rockets fans in the month of August. We start arguing on who's a fan of what, lol. :P

    And the wheel in the sky keeps on turning...

  • CC. says 8 months ago

    This is what happens to Rockets fans in the month of August. We start arguing on who's a fan of what, lol. :P

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    I didn't say you weren't a Rockets fan. as a matter of fact I didn't make a reference between the two at all. if you feel I did then maybe it's because you see very little difference between to two? from everything I have read from you has been pro Lin that's the reason for the statement.

    I like the kid for his character and work ethic and I see it would be better for the rockets to keep him than trade him. So apparently that makes me a Jlin fan, should you also call me a Paul George Fan, Harden fan, Parker fan, Duncan Fan, Irving fan, D12, Asik, and Parsons fan...?

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    I am not a Jlin fan and I do not appreciate you labeling me so. I am a rockets fan and want whats best for the rockets, something you have been shortsighted on.

    I didn't say you weren't a Rockets fan. as a matter of fact I didn't make a reference between the two at all. if you feel I did then maybe it's because you see very little difference between to two? from everything I have read from you has been pro Lin that's the reason for the statement.

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    @JG...........if you considered your last statement a joke then maybe it's best that we don't try to joke with each other as in we don't have the same sense of humor because I wasn't laughing when I read it. as for dishing it out without the ability to take it....we view each other the same way in this area so best not to hatch that egg. as for bullying....out of line and I'll leave it at that if you want to discuss that in greater detail send me an e-mail and I explorethe issue with you. as for B/R did you not read my response? I don't respect all their stuff, but was pointing to the stats used...nothing more nothing less. the combatant statement I will also explore with you in a side bar if you wish because I meant it. I don't want to get into it here with you so it's best I stop and continue via private means before this becomes ugly and I know neither of us want that

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    true. however if my dream comes true the way you love Lin you may require intervention :lol:I got my phone book out and looked up a couple of crisis hotlines.........let me know if you need them :lol:

    I am not a Jlin fan and I do not appreciate you labeling me so. I am a rockets fan and want whats best for the rockets, something you have been shortsighted on.

  • thejohnnygold says 8 months ago

    1. my only point was food for thought like I said under the link not the opinion of the writer but his points raised during the article.

    2. funny you mention double standard then put a similar trade to mine on LMA for bosh even after you tried to discount the possibility of such trade happening based on the assets used....I know your excuse will be it was fantasy.....but none of these trades have happened so they are all fantasy

    3. lastly if your going to mention double standard, but also be unable to see where you yourself have done this. the reason I called you out on the Bosh trade is I was showing you that you do the same thing. just like you remember the conversations we have had.....I do to. it's easy to see the speck in someone else's eye, but harder to see the plank in your own sometimes. not only good advice for you, but me and everyone else included. I still don't believe B/R is a good source for news.......too opinionated....sometimes without facts to back those opinions. however this article did offer facts that had creditability. every since the Josh Smith thread we no longer laugh like we use to......we have become combatants. I would rather that not be the case. but you appear unable to let that go and are now using what was said there in all conversations. just remember that's a two way street and a slippery slope.

    Not sure how to respond here. I'll say this--you dish it out on a regular basis and get awfully defensive if somebody points out any fault of your own. I was unaware that we are "combatants" now. I have already addressed the Bosh trade--it is not a double standard as the reason I didn't like the LMA trade was fit and the reason I like the Bosh trade is fit. It's a singular standard. Your confusion lies in every time I try to point out that Jeremy Lin cannot simultaneously exist as a terrible player and a player any team will happily take in a trade--which is your double standard on him. Like the previous times I have said this--I expect you to not process this most crucial aspect of the whole discussion.

    Please spare me the verbal bullying and histrionics. If you do not enjoy our discussion then I will oblige you and no longer engage any of your points.

    Oh, and for the record I was joking with you--something I thought was apparent when I used the emoticons denoting as much. Obviously I hit a nerve. Funny that you lament the fact we no longer laugh together as that is what I was attempting to do.

    By the way, here is the quote from when you let me know how you feel about Bleacher Report articles--which is the reason I felt compelled to JOKE with you in the first place--my mistake:

    QUOTE: "furthermore......you quoted bleacher report? if you believe everything you read on bleacher report then I know why you can't seem to absorb the fact that j-smith is not a star." And here is the link to the post.

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    You can dream RBF.

    true. however if my dream comes true the way you love Lin you may require intervention :lol:I got my phone book out and looked up a couple of crisis hotlines.........let me know if you need them :lol:

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    RBF, that's twice now you've had to resort to Bleacher Report to support one of your opinions (at least that I've seen). If you recall, you railed on me for using one BR article (in a group with 4-5 other links) to support a josh smith opinion. Reconcile your double standard, please. :P :lol:

    1. my only point was food for thought like I said under the link not the opinion of the writer but his points raised during the article.

    2. funny you mention double standard then put a similar trade to mine on LMA for bosh even after you tried to discount the possibility of such trade happening based on the assets used....I know your excuse will be it was fantasy.....but none of these trades have happened so they are all fantasy

    3. lastly if your going to mention double standard, but also be unable to see where you yourself have done this. the reason I called you out on the Bosh trade is I was showing you that you do the same thing. just like you remember the conversations we have had.....I do to. it's easy to see the speck in someone else's eye, but harder to see the plank in your own sometimes. not only good advice for you, but me and everyone else included. I still don't believe B/R is a good source for news.......too opinionated....sometimes without facts to back those opinions. however this article did offer facts that had creditability. every since the Josh Smith thread we no longer laugh like we use to......we have become combatants. I would rather that not be the case. but you appear unable to let that go and are now using what was said there in all conversations. just remember that's a two way street and a slippery slope.

  • Richards says 8 months ago

    I think people will be surprised at Lin's improvement.

    I am not sure about this. But Lin's doubters set the bar pretty low for him. So he is in very good position to beat that.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 8 months ago I think people will be surprised at Lin's improvement.
  • thejohnnygold says 8 months ago

    RBF, that's twice now you've had to resort to Bleacher Report to support one of your opinions (at least that I've seen). If you recall, you railed on me for using one BR article (in a group with 4-5 other links) to support a josh smith opinion. Reconcile your double standard, please. :P :lol:

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    I'm glad to see that the people most outspoken about Lin don't represent the majority:

    Jeremy_Lin.jpg

    Most people see he has talents, he is a hard worker, and he has good character. Those are all good signs that he will improve and that's what the large majority think.

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    you're going to be sick when Beverly take Lin's job :lol:what then?.....you got a 6th man role lined up? :lol:

    You can dream RBF.

  • 2016Champions says 8 months ago

    I'm glad to see that the people most outspoken about Lin don't represent the majority:

    Jeremy_Lin.jpg

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    He says Beverley's stats are barley better, but yet again Beverley join mid-season to play limited minutes against 2nd units and you can't compared that to starter minutes against starters. I do believe people over hype lin, but I believe just as many people tear him before even giving him a chance to improve.

    you're going to be sick when Beverly take Lin's job :lol:what then?.....you got a 6th man role lined up? :lol:

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    here's an article on Lin

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1726740-whos-the-most-over-and-underrated-houston-rockets-player

    food for thought

    He says Beverley's stats are barley better, but yet again Beverley join mid-season to play limited minutes against 2nd units and you can't compared that to starter minutes against starters. I do believe people over hype lin, but I believe just as many people tear him before even giving him a chance to improve.

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    here's an article on Lin

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1726740-whos-the-most-over-and-underrated-houston-rockets-player

    food for thought

  • timetodienow1234567 says 8 months ago

    Comedy takes effort. I crash and burn sometimes, but never that bad.

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    You want a surplus of good PGs. By the end of the year the rookie will be the best PG and starting for the Rockets.

    You need to work on your jokes a bit.

  • Losthief says 8 months ago

    You want a surplus of good PGs. By the end of the year the rookie will be the best PG and starting for the Rockets.

    new is always better eh?

  • timetodienow1234567 says 8 months ago

    You want a surplus of good PGs. By the end of the year the rookie will be the best PG and starting for the Rockets.

    Here's an article detailing how your statement is viewed by most people.

    http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

  • Steven says 8 months ago


    You always want a surplus of PGs, they are a cheap and common commodity, but also one of the more injury prone positions due too small size. While we have a lot of PFs so we can find a quality player out of the bunch and its always good to have bigs since they are the rarest commodity.


    You want a surplus of good PGs. By the end of the year the rookie will be the best PG and starting for the Rockets.
  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    scary stuff really makes more sense now why we have 4 pgs on the roster...bet you morey has some stats on which positions are injury prone more...We got alot of PF's and alot of PG's maybe theres something too that.

    You always want a surplus of PGs, they are a cheap and common commodity, but also one of the more injury prone positions due too small size. While we have a lot of PFs so we can find a quality player out of the bunch and its always good to have bigs since they are the rarest commodity.

  • Losthief says 8 months ago

    I probably didn't even get them all. Those were just off the top of my head

    scary stuff really makes more sense now why we have 4 pgs on the roster...bet you morey has some stats on which positions are injury prone more...We got alot of PF's and alot of PG's maybe theres something too that.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 8 months ago I probably didn't even get them all. Those were just off the top of my head
  • Losthief says 8 months ago

    I see curry's career as way too similar potentially to grant hill's. I just hope he doesn't try to play through a bad injury a la grant hill in Detroit and never come back that same. But man...thats a big list of star pg with injury problems/history, you could throw deron (ankles) and paul (knees) in there too.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 8 months ago

    Good repsonse RBF. I agree with everything you said. I think it's because these point guards go full speed and cut more than other positions. I also think that these combo type point guards are more naturally gifted so they don't build up the muscles in their legs like they should until they sustain that first injury and by then it's almost too late.

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    On health....

    A lot of young point guards are struggling with health issues today.

    John Wall

    Kyrie Irving

    Steph Curry

    Jeremy Lin

    Derrick Rose

    Rajon Rondo

    Russell Westbrook

    It seems kind of crazy that they're all injury prone. Chris Paul was too, earlier in his career before he learned to change speeds. It stands to reason that trying to build a team around a point guard doesn't seem too smart given the obvious injury concerns. Also, top tier point guards generally don't win championships. Magic Johnson was probably the last top tier point guard who won a ring in his prime.

    you know I never really thought of it in that context. I guess in today's game their is a lot of pressure for PGs who can finish at the rim. a byproduct of that is higher injury rate among their ranks. I always tended to look at injury as apersonalthing. I.E. say player either can or can not stay healthy.I wonder if there is a stat to see which position has the most injuries and the nature of those injuries? while Westbrook was healthy up until this past season most of these players have had knee injuries with the exception of Curry. speaking of Curry me and a friend were discussing him and that brace he wears on his ankles. I don't know how he can even flex with the brace on ........that thing is tied down like an army boot with small steel plates on each side. I have noticed though that it cut down on his drives to the cup. he is a hell of a shooter, but his ankles are like kyptonite to superman. I agree with the logic that building around a PG is not the preferred method, but when a team is in the lottery it's more important to get a star talent and worry about his position later. this probably causes most teams that build that way to get caught in that position.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 8 months ago

    On health....

    A lot of young point guards are struggling with health issues today.

    John Wall

    Kyrie Irving

    Steph Curry

    Jeremy Lin

    Derrick Rose

    Rajon Rondo

    Russell Westbrook

    It seems kind of crazy that they're all injury prone. Chris Paul was too, earlier in his career before he learned to change speeds. It stands to reason that trying to build a team around a point guard doesn't seem too smart given the obvious injury concerns. Also, top tier point guards generally don't win championships. Magic Johnson was probably the last top tier point guard who won a ring in his prime.

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    Me personally i think lins fine and being paid an ok amount at 8 mil a year for his lvl of play combined with potential by beeing so new to nba. However, his helath issues, from new york to houston make me worried, his stongest skill is his speed and aggression and his excellent foul shooting. but that style leads to collisions and potential injuries and hes already proven to me hes not injury proof. He kinda of reminds me of corey maggette, effective enough offensively but prone to miss 20% of the season.

    Hopefully he shows me something new with his style change staying effective, or a newfound ability to stay healthly and not limited physically as his polished skills cant make up when hes nit 100% physically

    you know what?................we haven't given much discussion time to his Health issues, but it is a worthy subject

  • Losthief says 8 months ago Me personally i think lins fine and being paid an ok amount at 8 mil a year for his lvl of play combined with potential by beeing so new to nba. However, his helath issues, from new york to houston make me worried, his stongest skill is his speed and aggression and his excellent foul shooting. but that style leads to collisions and potential injuries and hes already proven to me hes not injury proof. He kinda of reminds me of corey maggette, effective enough offensively but prone to miss 20% of the season.

    Hopefully he shows me something new with his style change staying effective, or a newfound ability to stay healthly and not limited physically as his polished skills cant make up when hes nit 100% physically
  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    I agree with RBF for the most part. I disagree that fans who love Lin automatically have a problem with you. I love Jeremy Lin and am really happy he's a Rocket. I think his strengths make up for his weaknesses. But I also recognize that other people don't like him, or more likely don't have much against him personally, but think he's overpaid, underachieving, or both. While I don't think those characterizations are completely accurate, I'll agree that they're being made from people who love the Rockets just as much as me and that those opinions are just as valid as mine.

    Disliking Jeremy Lin does not mean we've got problems, even though I love the kid.

    your view is refreshing................it's good to know that some Lin fans while disagreeing understand where I'm coming from

  • Drew in Abilene says 8 months ago

    we don't have to give it up.........just all the people who love Lin accept that there are fans who don't like Lin or think the sun rises and sets on him. we could argue his stats or skill all day long, but until Lin lovers accept there are ROCKETS FANS who don't accept that line of thinking howeverthat doesn't make us any less of Rocket fans then it will always lead to threads like this. I don't have a problem with fans who love Lin, but they have a problem with me because I don't like him. fact is if Lin was playing at a high level this wouldn't even be a discussion, but if you want to discuss him rationally you must be willing to accept not all people will see the situation through your eyes

    I agree with RBF for the most part. I disagree that fans who love Lin automatically have a problem with you. I love Jeremy Lin and am really happy he's a Rocket. I think his strengths make up for his weaknesses. But I also recognize that other people don't like him, or more likely don't have much against him personally, but think he's overpaid, underachieving, or both. While I don't think those characterizations are completely accurate, I'll agree that they're being made from people who love the Rockets just as much as me and that those opinions are just as valid as mine.

    Disliking Jeremy Lin does not mean we've got problems, even though I love the kid.

  • Steven says 8 months ago

    RBF, the only issue I have with you is that you try to paint everyone who likes Lin for this team as a Lin Only Fan. It ticks me off. I'm a Rockets fan. SMH.

    Well true Rockets fans understand Lin sucks.

    I have been the one who has just said "Lin sucks." To me the playoffs proved everything. The Rockets were a better team when Lin was in a suit then in a uniform. The Rockets were winning and had momentum when he was out, he got jealous (my opinion) and rushed himself back at the detriment of his team. If he would have set himself out the last two games, I honestly believe the Rockets would have beat the Thunder in the series. Him, plus the inclusion of Greg Smith in the lineup cost the Rockets a chance to play the Spurs in the WCF. So basically the Rockets are paying Lin $20M over the next two years, when the team plays better with him on the bench.

    And yes the first line was sarcasm.
  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    RBF, the only issue I have with you is that you try to paint everyone who likes Lin for this team as a Lin Only Fan. It ticks me off. I'm a Rockets fan. SMH.

    Agreed, but he won't stop.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 8 months ago RBF, the only issue I have with you is that you try to paint everyone who likes Lin for this team as a Lin Only Fan. It ticks me off. I'm a Rockets fan. SMH.
  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    1. lin can not dribble with both hands. no ability to drive left. makes him easier to guard

    2. far to often lin is able to get to the paint but doesn't know what to do with the ball

    3.lin leaves his feet to make passes....this is fatal....this must be stopped

    4.lin has trouble staying in front of small quick guard......and the nba is loaded with them. some believe his defense is ok.......I don't

    5.lin is a streak shooter....more oftencold than hot

    will that get you started? :lol:I'm prepared to defend each point. you see I don't have rose colored glasses on when it comes to lin. I watched him very closely this year and while he did marginally improve linsanity was a fluke. excuses are like buttholes.... everybody got one. fact is for the 20 mil he will be paid over the next 2 years his skills come up way way short of his paycheck

    since you refuse to read hear is part of my assessment......there is more where that came from. Notice the date it was made

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    You're deflecting the discussion. For further proof, I wrote it in a detailed analysis in this thread. Go back and read over it.

    I see you still want to give excuses instead of reading..........if you really spent time in this thread you would see I have given a complete breakdown of Lin's faults, best assets and outlook for the future. the proof is in the pudding.

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    Guys just give it up. I kinda want to make a new topic how lin will be beneficial to the team but that too would probably crash and burn in a flame war.

    we don't have to give it up.........just all the people who love Lin accept that there are fans who don't like Lin or think the sun rises and sets on him. we could argue his stats or skill all day long, but until Lin lovers accept there are ROCKETS FANS who don't accept that line of thinking howeverthat doesn't make us any less of Rocket fans then it will always lead to threads like this. I don't have a problem with fans who love Lin, but they have a problem with me because I don't like him. fact is if Lin was playing at a high level this wouldn't even be a discussion, but if you want to discuss him rationally you must be willing to accept not all people will see the situation through your eyes

  • quatin says 8 months ago

    either I deflecting the discussion or your to lazy to read one of the two

    You're deflecting the discussion. For further proof, I wrote it in a detailed analysis in this thread. Go back and read over it.

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    Guys just give it up. I kinda want to make a new topic how lin will be beneficial to the team but that too would probably crash and burn in a flame war.

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    Well, it would be easier to have you repeat it than search through 35 pages of Lin discussion.... :P

    WHY......so we can pull out every Lin fan from the Rockets fan base......like last time. what are you doing trying to call in reinforcements :lol:

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    There is very little substantiated facts or reasoning in this 35 page long thread from you. I'm not going to go through it, because it's not there. You're deflecting the discussion again.

    either I deflecting the discussion or your to lazy to read one of the two

  • quatin says 8 months ago

    perhaps you should go back and read this thread more carefully. every idea about Lin has been responded to. every fault, insight, good and bad aspect of Lin's game has been discussed or did you not notice this thread is 35 pages long?

    There is very little substantiated facts or reasoning in this 35 page long thread from you. I'm not going to go through it, because it's not there. You're deflecting the discussion again.

  • thejohnnygold says 8 months ago

    Well, it would be easier to have you repeat it than search through 35 pages of Lin discussion.... :P

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    Everyone can have an opinion. The problem is whenever anyone tries to discuss anything about Lin. You come in with unsubstantiated statements like "Lin sucks" or "I believe Lin isn't worth his contract". When we try to get any facts or reasoning behind it, you pull the "it's my opinion card" instead of trying to defend it.

    It gets old. It becomes obsessive when you post in every Lin thread, on every page with these statements. You're not starting any analytical discussions with these posts, just flame wars.

    perhaps you should go back and read this thread more carefully. every idea about Lin has been responded to. every fault, insight, good and bad aspect of Lin's game has been discussed or did you not notice this thread is 35 pages long?

  • quatin says 8 months ago

    if there is any obsession it's with the Rockets......I love my team. you see I'm not one of the fair weather fans who get pissed and change squads. I been pulling for the Rockets from the time they hit this town. however when I'm in a Lin thread discussing him I will give my honest opinion of him. same can be said for all other players or transactions carried out by the Rockets

    Everyone can have an opinion. The problem is whenever anyone tries to discuss anything about Lin. You come in with unsubstantiated statements like "Lin sucks" or "I believe Lin isn't worth his contract". When we try to get any facts or reasoning behind it, you pull the "it's my opinion card" instead of trying to defend it.

    It gets old. It becomes obsessive when you post in every Lin thread, on every page with these statements. You're not starting any analytical discussions with these posts, just flame wars.

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    "Either way, you've got a better chance of reversing the Earth's rotation than RBF's opinion on JLin."

    Amen to that, Johnnygold...I've been traveling for work, away from this board for almost two months. I come back to find RBF still whaling away at JLin! It's clearly an obsession: not healthy, RBF! Let it go, for your own sake.

    if there is any obsession it's with the Rockets......I love my team. you see I'm not one of the fair weather fans who get pissed and change squads. I been pulling for the Rockets from the time they hit this town. however when I'm in a Lin thread discussing him I will give my honest opinion of him. same can be said for all other players or transactions carried out by the Rockets

  • Steven says 8 months ago That's because the Rockets are stuck with a below average PG.
  • kevingan says 8 months ago

    "Either way, you've got a better chance of reversing the Earth's rotation than RBF's opinion on JLin."

    Amen to that, Johnnygold...I've been traveling for work, away from this board for almost two months. I come back to find RBF still whaling away at JLin! It's clearly an obsession: not healthy, RBF! Let it go, for your own sake.

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    Take solace in this: once the season starts and Lin's play speaks for itself we'll see how hard he back-pedals or if he just stubbornly refuses to acknowledge that Lin is playing well. :P

    Worst case scenario: He's right and Lin's "fatal flaws" (as he calls them--but won't actually name them) make him an inferior PG and we may never hear the end of it. :(

    Either way, you've got a better chance of reversing the Earth's rotation than RBF's opinion on JLin.

    So true brother.

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    Take solace in this: once the season starts and Lin's play speaks for itself we'll see how hard he back-pedals or if he just stubbornly refuses to acknowledge that Lin is playing well. :P

    Worst case scenario: He's right and Lin's "fatal flaws" (as he calls them--but won't actually name them) make him an inferior PG and we may never hear the end of it. :(

    Either way, you've got a better chance of reversing the Earth's rotation than RBF's opinion on JLin.

    totally agree on that last part :lol:also we have discussed Lin's flaws several times all you have to do in wander back about ten pages ago in this tread to see. I have my assessment of him contained within this tread

  • thejohnnygold says 8 months ago

    Take solace in this: once the season starts and Lin's play speaks for itself we'll see how hard he back-pedals or if he just stubbornly refuses to acknowledge that Lin is playing well. :P

    Worst case scenario: He's right and Lin's "fatal flaws" (as he calls them--but won't actually name them) make him an inferior PG and we may never hear the end of it. :(

    Either way, you've got a better chance of reversing the Earth's rotation than RBF's opinion on JLin.

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    Lol.

    He never makes a logical comeback, just that lin sucks and it doesn't matter if you are using facts, you're just crying. Roll my eyes.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 8 months ago Lol.
  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    Have you had that injury before? I have but I was a linemen so I didn't have to run up and down a basketball court. You can make the same conclusion how the strain calf affected Tony Parker in the finals. That's not an excuse, injuries are not excuses. They just happen and you can't stop them. Want to blame Westbrook for his knee?

    I already told you I don't want to hear the crying. so I really have no response

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    I told you...............any time some one brings up a fact it only leads to Lin fans making excuses. that's why I don't waste my time doing it. there are many points I could make, but I don't want to hear the crying :lol:

    Have you had that injury before? I have but I was a linemen so I didn't have to run up and down a basketball court. You can make the same conclusion how the strain calf affected Tony Parker in the finals. That's not an excuse, injuries are not excuses. They just happen and you can't stop them. Want to blame Westbrook for his knee?

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    He was also dealing with a bad chest bone bruise and those last for weeks and hurt like hell. To get it on your chest would make breathing and do anything painful and very difficult and I can't blame him for that. Then people argue Beverley did fantastic, well Beverley was playing against a rookie PG in reggie Jackson because Westbrook was out by the 2nd game.

    I told you...............any time some one brings up a fact it only leads to Lin fans making excuses. that's why I don't waste my time doing it. there are many points I could make, but I don't want to hear the crying :lol:

  • Buckko says 8 months ago


    Buddy, not sure what you meant. Who is troll? Who take a bite? Or are we all in it together. Don't take this as an offense. Just be perspective. :)

    lot of people are very biased with any facts to back it up and just want to troll.
  • Richards says 8 months ago

    Lin brings in money to the organization. The exact amount is debatable, but $8 million is not an unreasonable assumption. Les had his reasons for bringing him in. It's business like you said. However, we've stopped discussing facts along time ago on this thread. The last few pages are just trolling and flaming.

    Buddy, not sure what you meant. Who is troll? Who take a bite? Or are we all in it together. Don't take this as an offense. Just be perspective. :)

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    Lin brings in money to the organization. The exact amount is debatable, but $8 million is not an unreasonable assumption. Les had his reasons for bringing him in. It's business like you said. However, we've stopped discussing facts along time ago on this thread. The last few pages are just trolling and flaming.

    Go figure, intellectual conversation tends not to last long.

  • quatin says 8 months ago

    I made this point before and I will do it again. Most fans who think Lin = garbage is money to productions ratio. Parsons had similar PPG and PER but he was paid less and nobody has any issue with it.

    Lin didn't compliment well with Harden last season. He played and produced better while Harden was out or on the bench.

    I thing I agree with LOF is he will be better coming season. Why? He played well with Tyson Chandler in NY and should be better with Howard.

    Lin brings in money to the organization. The exact amount is debatable, but $8 million is not an unreasonable assumption. Les had his reasons for bringing him in. It's business like you said. However, we've stopped discussing facts along time ago on this thread. The last few pages are just trolling and flaming.

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    Some didn't know that owner want Lin at any cost because he wants to keep Asia fan base after Yao left. Business man know what he is doing but casual fans don't know and don't care. I bet owner may still believe what he is paying to Lin worth it even for last year production.

    Ok, that was really obvious. Who wouldn't want to be the most popular team in china. I am no Jlin fan, I'm a rocket fan and I saw how Jlin improve during the season and I saw his statistics and that's why I support lin. With the support of facts and numbers, keeping Jlin makes the rockets a better team as long as he keeps improving like he has been.

  • Richards says 8 months ago

    If lin averages 15&8 or 9 would you be happy. This is not an exaggeration lin will become a more efficient scorer as he averaged 17 points and 40% from the 3 in the last 3 months of the season and with Howard and all the open shooters along with his excellent passing and floor vision his assists will skyrocket. Would he be worth his contract then?

    Some didn't know that owner want Lin at any cost because he wants to keep Asia fan base after Yao left. Business man know what he is doing but casual fans don't know and don't care. I bet owner may still believe what he is paying to Lin worth it even for last year production.

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    Fact. When he played against OKC the Rockets lost, when he didn't they won.

    He was also dealing with a bad chest bone bruise and those last for weeks and hurt like hell. To get it on your chest would make breathing and do anything painful and very difficult and I can't blame him for that. Then people argue Beverley did fantastic, well Beverley was playing against a rookie PG in reggie Jackson because Westbrook was out by the 2nd game.

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    I made this point before and I will do it again. Most fans who think Lin = garbage is money to productions ratio. Parsons had similar PPG and PER but he was paid less and nobody has any issue with it.

    Lin didn't compliment well with Harden last season. He played and produced better while Harden was out or on the bench.

    I thing I agree with LOF is he will be better coming season. Why? He played well with Tyson Chandler in NY and should be better with Howard.

    If lin averages 15&8 or 9 would you be happy. This is not an exaggeration lin will become a more efficient scorer as he averaged 17 points and 40% from the 3 in the last 3 months of the season and with Howard and all the open shooters along with his excellent passing and floor vision his assists will skyrocket. Would he be worth his contract then?

  • Steven says 8 months ago


    you have no facts nor statistics to back it up. You are just biased.


    Fact. When he played against OKC the Rockets lost, when he didn't they won.
  • Richards says 8 months ago

    I made this point before and I will do it again. Most fans who think Lin = garbage is money to productions ratio. Parsons had similar PPG and PER but he was paid less and nobody has any issue with it.

    Lin didn't compliment well with Harden last season. He played and produced better while Harden was out or on the bench.

    I thing I agree with LOF is he will be better coming season. Why? He played well with Tyson Chandler in NY and should be better with Howard.

  • Buckko says 8 months ago


    I could bring up all kinds of facts.......but what's the use.....because you're bias too......you would only try to justify his short coming by giving him excuses

    If you had some facts worth argueing with, you would've said by now, but all you have said is biased opinions without facts to back them up.
  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    you have no facts nor statistics to back it up. You are just biased.

    I could bring up all kinds of facts.......but what's the use.....because you're bias too......you would only try to justify his short coming by giving him excuses

  • Buckko says 8 months ago


    I don't need another year to know what I see................Lin is not that good of a player

    you have no facts nor statistics to back it up. You are just biased.
  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    You still don't have any idea what he's worth, give him a year than you can crucify him or I can say I told you so.

    I don't need another year to know what I see................Lin is not that good of a player

  • Buckko says 8 months ago


    I know, but I don't think there will be full agreement on any fronts until he is traded

    You still don't have any idea what he's worth, give him a year than you can crucify him or I can say I told you so.
  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    I strongly disagree in general after thoroughly agreed during early part of last season but slowly changed to disagreement and I agree to agreed in playoff but I have to disagree to agreed....... duh sentence is like topic itself, can't end it.... :)

    I know, but I don't think there will be full agreement on any frontsuntil he is traded

  • Richards says 8 months ago

    Back to topic, Lin still sucks.

    I strongly disagree in general after thoroughly agreed during early part of last season but slowly changed to disagreement and I agree to agreed in playoff but I have to disagree to agreed....... duh sentence is like topic itself, can't end it.... :)

  • Buckko says 8 months ago

    People are biased.

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    Back to topic, Lin still sucks.

    I know, but I thought we covered that :lol:

  • Steven says 8 months ago Back to topic, Lin still sucks.
  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    All of those movies aren't scary to me. The only movie that scared me growing up was IT. I watched it when I was 5 and I was scared taking a shower for a while. I heard they're doing a remake and I hope it's going to be as good as the original.

    I don't if you will remember this.......but there was a movie made for TV called the trilogy of terror where a little African warrior doll was chasing this woman around in a lock apartment. I was also young when I saw this and it scared me, but generally the scary movies they make now are pieces of crap. I'm not interested in how many different ways you can kill a person........what happen to the suspense?

  • timetodienow1234567 says 8 months ago

    All of those movies aren't scary to me. The only movie that scared me growing up was IT. I watched it when I was 5 and I was scared taking a shower for a while. I heard they're doing a remake and I hope it's going to be as good as the original.

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    Jason wasn't the killer until the third movie.

    I know the first one was his mom, but I thought he started his spree in #2

  • Steven says 8 months ago And T-Mac leads the league in Hockey assists.
  • 2016Champions says 8 months ago

    .@JLin7 passes led 2very high eFG

  • Steven says 8 months ago


    this thread has more lives than Jason in Friday the 13th :lol: every time it looks dead with an axe in the skull under the ocean it magically come back to life :lol:


    Jason wasn't the killer until the third movie.
  • Richards says 8 months ago

    this thread has more lives than Jason in Friday the 13th :lol:every time it looks dead with an axe in the skull under the ocean it magically come back to life :lol:

    Yeah. This thread is like either eternal life or zombie or in coma. All sorts of drama with twist and turns.

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    this thread has more lives than Jason in Friday the 13th :lol:every time it looks dead with an axe in the skull under the ocean it magically come back to life :lol:

  • quatin says 8 months ago

    Can't question his motor. One thing I like about this guy is, there's footage of him training and improving his weaknesses. Solid proof behind believing Lin will improve next season.

  • 2016Champions says 8 months ago

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iai8VT6h5o8

  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    I don't think brooks signing has any effect on Lin, brooks is a solid backup but no reason to trade away a starter to get him more minutes. Canaan will be in the dleague, Lin starts bev backs him up and brooks gets spot minutes. I do think Lin will be traded before his contract is up, but the front office isn't gonna be like oh we got brooks now we have to dump Lin!

    there is no rush, but I don't think Canaan will spend as much time in the d league as you do. the kid can play and like parsons was at his point in leaving college a much more mature player. all signs point to Lin being the odd man out not so much for his playing ability as his contract

  • Cooper says 8 months ago I don't think brooks signing has any effect on Lin, brooks is a solid backup but no reason to trade away a starter to get him more minutes. Canaan will be in the dleague, Lin starts bev backs him up and brooks gets spot minutes. I do think Lin will be traded before his contract is up, but the front office isn't gonna be like oh we got brooks now we have to dump Lin!
  • rockets best fan says 8 months ago

    The Rockets can probably carry 4 PG's on their roster this season especially since Lin can move over and play some 2 if necessary. Eventually, Lin will probably be traded unless he turns heads this fall. I seriously, seriously doubt the Rockets trade Lin before the season though. Sorry RBF, just my take on it. And by having 4 PG's on the roster, the Rockets will have more flexibility were they to trade Lin, say at the February 2014 Trade Deadline as they wouldn't have to receive a PG in return.

    true the Rockets can carry 4 PG's, but unlikely. Lin will not get minutes at 2 guard. he can not shoot well enough. a trade may not happen before the season, but expect it shortly there after. He will be traded. from the Rockets perspective his production can be replaced at a cheaper cost. those who like him refuse to accept that fact. Morey doesn't have Lin colored glasses on when it comes the managing the bottom line. he didn't bring Canaan here to ride the pine. remember before last season.....we had 2 quality PG's and by the time the season started both were gone and Lin was here. the signing of Brooks is a clear sign a move is going to be made to clear the logjam at that position. I understand we disagree on Lin, neither of our opinions have any bearing on what the rockets may do. so in trying to look at it from a completely logical standpoint minus emotion............it's not logical for the rockets to carry 4 point guards when they have only carried 3 in all other years. they are going to make a move to clear that logjam..........based on the fact Lin makes the most among them and there isn't that much difference in abilities, signs point to him being moved

  • rocketrick says 8 months ago

    A-Brooks is back
    http://www.hoopsworld.com/aaron-brooks-returning-to-rockets
    wonder what that means for Lin in light of we now have 4 PG's

    The Rockets can probably carry 4 PG's on their roster this season especially since Lin can move over and play some 2 if necessary. Eventually, Lin will probably be traded unless he turns heads this fall. I seriously, seriously doubt the Rockets trade Lin before the season though. Sorry RBF, just my take on it. And by having 4 PG's on the roster, the Rockets will have more flexibility were they to trade Lin, say at the February 2014 Trade Deadline as they wouldn't have to receive a PG in return.
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    Means Lin is gonna be traded before the start of the season. #Celebration

    agreed.................agreed on the hash tag to

  • Steven says 9 months ago


    I have a feeling it means Canaan is spending the year in the NBADL, and we're going to have the same 3 PGs we finished the last season with.


    Means Lin is gonna be traded before the start of the season. #Celebration
  • BenQueens says 9 months ago

    I have a feeling it means Canaan is spending the year in the NBADL, and we're going to have the same 3 PGs we finished the last season with.

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    A-Brooks is back

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/aaron-brooks-returning-to-rockets

    wonder what that means for Lin in light of we now have 4 PG's

  • bboley24 says 9 months ago

    I sure hope someone says that about me when I go off on Rahat for some erroneous comment.

    Then again most of the time I feel like Ice T on Law and Order on this message board...

    "So you're telling me that if some pervert does that to a little girl that it's considered child abuse?"

    "Yes Ice T, this is the special victims unit."

  • Steven says 9 months ago


    LOL... I supposed I missed those 25 pages or so. Did anyone get suspended or banned? I missed it.


    That person is once again a contributor to our world renowned blog and message board.
  • bboley24 says 9 months ago

    LOL... I supposed I missed those 25 pages or so. Did anyone get suspended or banned? I missed it.

  • Steven says 9 months ago


    I decided to check in on this thread and read the last 2 pages.. I thought this was a thread geared towards not giving up on him?


    We've decided that its a waste of time to not give up on him. We've come to realize he was in the bottom half of the league and fourth best on his own team.
  • bboley24 says 9 months ago

    I decided to check in on this thread and read the last 2 pages.. I thought this was a thread geared towards not giving up on him?

  • feelingsupersonic says 9 months ago Hater is the kind of word in discussion that makes me feel embarrassed for the people that use it. I have been an advocate to move Lin's contract since the latter parts of the season and I in no way hate Lin. In fact i believe Lin does have NBA talent which could blossom as a productive starter in the right situation though I still believe he is sixth man material. In actuality to me hating any professional athlete is just pretty rediculous. If anything I am astounded at the fans of Lin, how could so many people follow such an average player.

    Let's try to keep a higher level of conversation gentlemen.
  • Rockets fan newton says 9 months ago

    guys let me explain how stupid what Utah has been doing since the trade deadline is
    1. held on to both Jefferson and Milsap in a failed playoff attempt when they could have traded both and gotten draft picks and possibly some young talent from a contender looking to add players like these two for a deeper playoff run
    2. fail to get anything from sign and trade on either Milsap or Jefferson......so they basically lost both players for nothing
    3. had loads of cap space, but instead of trying to acquire some talent to help their team they decided to take on the burden of 24 million dollars in dead contracts from another team to help that team become better even though that team plays in their conference while they basically pay 24 million dollars for 2 first rounders that will land in the 20's and 2 second rounder that will probably land in the 50's


    I call that dumb.......who ever is the GM he should be fired...........ask yourself.......if Morey did this would you be happy?

    Nope..lol most ppl wanted him fired 2 years ago for keeping us in the hunt for the playoffs and still add young assist and a ton of pics for much worse players then Jefferson and Milsap..we're those hater at now..I'm sure all the haters of Lin will disappear as well when he does good..lol other then u RBF..give forgetting we differ on that one topic
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    Some teams are trying to win and collecting assets for nothing is not collusion. They had to get to the floor anyways and were going to have to spend that money regardless. This way they still have cap flexibility for next year to get a good free agent and re-sign their own guys.

    They have to spend the money anyways. Might as well get the picks to do so.

    guys let me explain how stupid what Utah has been doing since the trade deadlineis

    1. held on to both Jefferson and Milsap in a failed playoff attempt when they could have traded both and gotten draft picks and possibly some young talent from a contender looking to add players like these two for a deeper playoff run

    2. fail to get anything from sign and trade on either Milsap or Jefferson......so they basically lost both players for nothing

    3. had loads of cap space, but instead of trying to acquire some talent to help their team they decided to take on the burden of 24 million dollars in dead contracts from another team to help that team become better even though that team plays in their conferencewhile they basically pay 24 million dollars for 2 first rounders that will land in the 20's and 2 second rounder that will probably land in the 50's

    I call that dumb.......who ever is the GM he should be fired...........ask yourself.......if Morey did this would you be happy?

  • Steven says 9 months ago


    they did get 4 picks 2 first 2 second. however Utah also accepted 24 mil in dead contracts. 11 mil Jefferson 9 mil Biedrin 4 mil Rush..........Utah should have gotten more than that considering golden state's picks won't be worth very much (what a pick somewhere in the 20's) what Utah did for golden state you won't find many teams willing to do. 1st round draft picks are nice, but would you pay 10 mil apiece for them? even if they were in the 20's? if that's not one team doing another team a favor I don't know what is


    They have to spend the money anyways. Might as well get the picks to do so.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 9 months ago

    they did get 4 picks 2 first 2 second. however Utah also accepted 24 mil in dead contracts. 11 mil Jefferson 9 mil Biedrin 4 mil Rush..........Utah should have gotten more than that considering golden state's picks won't be worth very much (what a pick somewhere in the 20's) what Utah did for golden state you won't find many teams willing to do. 1st round draft picks are nice, but would you pay 10 mil apiece for them? even if they were in the 20's? if that's not one team doing another team a favor I don't know what is


    Some teams are trying to win and collecting assets for nothing is not collusion. They had to get to the floor anyways and were going to have to spend that money regardless. This way they still have cap flexibility for next year to get a good free agent and re-sign their own guys.
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    The Jazz got 2 1sts, 2 2nds, and Brandon Rush. All for accepting expiring contracts. They realize that at best they're 3 years away from a championship and Iggy is declining, Curry has shot ankles, Bogut's a free agent next year..... They didn't help create a superteam, or if they did, it's not going to matter in a few years when they are contenders.

    they did get 4 picks 2 first 2 second. however Utah also accepted 24 mil in dead contracts. 11 mil Jefferson 9 mil Biedrin 4 mil Rush..........Utah should have gotten more than that considering golden state's picks won't be worth very much (what a pick somewhere in the 20's) what Utah did for golden state you won't find many teams willing to do. 1st round draft picks are nice, but would you pay 10 mil apiece for them? even if they were in the 20's? if that's not one team doing another team a favor I don't know what is

  • timetodienow1234567 says 9 months ago

    I thought the same thing until Utah helped golden state get Iggy. as for Portland......3 first rounders and asik ain't nothing to sneeze at. that's nice haul for a player who wants out anyway

    The Jazz got 2 1sts, 2 2nds, and Brandon Rush. All for accepting expiring contracts. They realize that at best they're 3 years away from a championship and Iggy is declining, Curry has shot ankles, Bogut's a free agent next year..... They didn't help create a superteam, or if they did, it's not going to matter in a few years when they are contenders.

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    As much as I like the trade, I doubt many teams will want to be a part of bolstering a super team, especially within their conference. Portland and Memphis are hurt by creating another big three to compete with, even if they gain pieces. And Portland would probably want more than that for LMA.

    I thought the same thing until Utah helped golden state get Iggy. as for Portland......3 first rounders and asik ain't nothing to sneeze at. that's nice haul for a player who wants out anyway

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    Detroit is set this season with their PG's. They just signed Chauncey Billups and Will Bynum earlier this month. Brandon Knight is still a work in progress at PG but likely too undersized to be a long term solution at SG. Then there's the $8.5 million backup PG Rodney Stuckey who has no outside shot.

    while Detroit does have PG's on the roster they can't be too excited about any of them. Lin does offer the chance for them to add a PG who can grow with their young core. he may even help them challenge for a playoff spot in the weak east

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    That's pretty close. Is the first round pick in the 2014 draft? If so, Utah probably doesn't bite. Detroit has two pg's on the final years of their contracts...Rockets probably have to take one of those in return assuming they want Lin (and are willing to part with a first rounder as well).

    I can see why Houston and Portland do these deals for sure....not sure about the trade partners though. The other thing to consider is how much of Portland's interest in Asik is centered around pairing him with Aldridge?

    Here, what do you think of this TRADE? Memphis could use some extra scoring punch and floor spacing at the SG position and has extra PF's. Throw in whatever picks are necessary to make Portland happy....

    while I do believe the deal may have to be sweetened for Utah, they could get some lottery protection on their sent pick and maybe another second rounder from us. I been reading some articles from Portland newspapers and it appears that there is an under tow of belief that LMA wants out of Portland and will be moved before the start of this season.

    as for the trade you proposed.........I like it, but Memphis is the X factor. their owner is cheap and may not want to absorb the extra money on Lin without us tossing in some draft picks.

  • Drew in Abilene says 9 months ago

    As much as I like the trade, I doubt many teams will want to be a part of bolstering a super team, especially within their conference. Portland and Memphis are hurt by creating another big three to compete with, even if they gain pieces. And Portland would probably want more than that for LMA.

  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    well, all right then...back to the drawing board...

  • rocketrick says 9 months ago

    That's why I said at SG...he has proven he can create his own offense and offense for others....would work well in my opinion alongside Conley, Randolph, Gasol, etc.

    Maybe although Lin would be somewhat undersized as a SG. I don't think too many people would agree Lin is more of a SG than a PG. And I'm not sure that Memphis is even bringing back Austin Daye, I think he might be a free agent. I don't see his 2013-14 salary listed.
  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    That's why I said at SG...he has proven he can create his own offense and offense for others....would work well in my opinion alongside Conley, Randolph, Gasol, etc.

  • rocketrick says 9 months ago

    That's pretty close. Is the first round pick in the 2014 draft? If so, Utah probably doesn't bite. Detroit has two pg's on the final years of their contracts...Rockets probably have to take one of those in return assuming they want Lin (and are willing to part with a first rounder as well).

    I can see why Houston and Portland do these deals for sure....not sure about the trade partners though. The other thing to consider is how much of Portland's interest in Asik is centered around pairing him with Aldridge?

    Here, what do you think of this TRADE? Memphis could use some extra scoring punch and floor spacing at the SG position and has extra PF's. Throw in whatever picks are necessary to make Portland happy....

    That seems very, very unlikely to me. Why would Memphis want an $8.5 million backup PG as I sure don't see Lin overtaking Mike Conley for the starting job???
  • rocketrick says 9 months ago

    true, but they may still bite.........if not replace them with Detroit and redo same trade

    Detroit is set this season with their PG's. They just signed Chauncey Billups and Will Bynum earlier this month. Brandon Knight is still a work in progress at PG but likely too undersized to be a long term solution at SG. Then there's the $8.5 million backup PG Rodney Stuckey who has no outside shot.
  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    That's pretty close. Is the first round pick in the 2014 draft? If so, Utah probably doesn't bite. Detroit has two pg's on the final years of their contracts...Rockets probably have to take one of those in return assuming they want Lin (and are willing to part with a first rounder as well).

    I can see why Houston and Portland do these deals for sure....not sure about the trade partners though. The other thing to consider is how much of Portland's interest in Asik is centered around pairing him with Aldridge?

    Here, what do you think of this TRADE? Memphis could use some extra scoring punch and floor spacing at the SG position and has extra PF's. Throw in whatever picks are necessary to make Portland happy....

  • rocketrick says 9 months ago

    @ JG
    here's another trade.............based on some rumors I read today............3 team trade. gave it a little more thought this time
    Portland sends LMA to Houston
    Houston sends Lin to Utah plus 1 second rounderand 2 first rounders plus asik to Portland
    Utah sends 1st rounder to Portland
    Utah gets the PG they need
    Houston get LMA
    Portland gets 3 1st rounders and asik

    that's a win for everybody

    Unless the Rockets can finagle another lottery pick in another trade, I don't see Portland being all that excited about 2 Rockets first round picks that will likely come towards the end of the first round.

    Although the thought process of a 3-team trade is probably on target. That is likely what will have to happen eventually. And I believe Utah still needs some PG depth unless they plan on bringing Mo Williams back on a more team favorable contract.
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    Utah drafted Trey Burke. He is their PG. plus they wanna lose this year to be in the Wiggins lotto.

    true, but they may still bite.........if not replace them with Detroit and redo same trade

  • Steven says 9 months ago Utah drafted Trey Burke. He is their PG. plus they wanna lose this year to be in the Wiggins lotto.
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    @ JG

    here's another trade.............based on some rumors I read today............3 team trade. gave it a little more thought this time

    Portland sends LMA to Houston

    Houston sends Lin to Utah plus 1 second rounderand 2 first rounders plus asik to Portland

    Utah sends 1st rounder to Portland

    Utah gets the PG they need

    Houston get LMA

    Portland gets 3 1st rounders and asik

    that's a win for everybody

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    That's it, RBF....I'm getting you a Goran Dragic jersey...what size are you? :lol:

    99300.png

    :lol: :lol: :lol:

  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    That's it, RBF....I'm getting you a Goran Dragic jersey...what size are you? :lol:

    99300.png

  • feelingsupersonic says 9 months ago I agree with rocketrick. At this point and considering the market and what stage of the game we are in it now makes most sense to stay with Lin. I don't believe any of our point guards are impressive enough to man the position as their own I do believe a platoon of 3 is probably going to be necessary. Hopefully the rookie can come in and help because Lin and Beverley need a backup that can help them out from time to time. It's a big plus that Harden can take over ball handling and playmaking duties for long stretches.
  • rocketrick says 9 months ago

    no I'm not digging for reasons. he is what he is. I have said it before and I will say it again. if Lin remains here it's not the end of the team. if we survived with Kenny smith at point guard during our championship runs then Lin certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility. however if the chance to upgrade that position arises we should jump on it like a hungry bear on asalmon. Lin is a temporary solution, however we should continue to look for a more permanent solution.

    The Rockets survived with Kenny Smith at PG primarily because the Rockets also had some young kid on the bench, Cassell, that always seemed to play good when Kenny was having a bad game and vice-versa, plus Scotty Brooks was there from time to time. That would probably be the ideal situation for the Rockets going forward, having Lin playing solid minutes but then having a reliable backup ready to step in and fill the void in a Sam I Am manner. Not sure who would fill the role of Scotty, though. That dude was tenacious!
  • 2016Champions says 9 months ago

    Facts don't matter

    Apparently. Oh well, I guess everyone's entitled to an opinion no matter how unreasonable they are.

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    Facts don't matter

    excuses either :lol:

  • Steven says 9 months ago


    Pretty sure I said regular season, not playoffs. Regardless, what happened in the playoffs wasn't a slump, it was an injury--big difference.


    I quoted you. Only says season. Not regular or playoffs. Since the Rockets made the playoffs, wouldn't that be on the mind of all the fans? You know when for the second year in a row, Lin missed games. Then the Rockets win and he plays again and they lose.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 9 months ago Facts don't matter
  • 2016Champions says 9 months ago

    Pretty sure I said regular season, not playoffs. Regardless, what happened in the playoffs wasn't a slump, it was an injury--big difference.

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    How does finishing the season strong make a leap less likely?

    you call his playoff showing strong? true he faired a little better the second half, but I'm still unimpressed

  • Steven says 9 months ago


    How does finishing the season strong make a leap less likely?


    How do you finish strong not playing games in the playoffs?
  • Steven says 9 months ago


    @RBF The term more commonly used is "sophmore slump" and there's actually a term called "sophmore leap" too. I don't really see any reason why the latter is impossible for Jeremy Lin.


    It's impossible because he is Jeremy Lin.
  • 2016Champions says 9 months ago

    neitheris impossible......but leap.......less likely (IMO)

    How does finishing the season strong make a leap less likely?

  • timetodienow1234567 says 9 months ago

    neitheris impossible......but leap.......less likely (IMO)

    We disagree RBF, but you're not out there saying all Lin will ever be is a third string PG and that NOTHING you see will change your mind. You just have a different opinion and I respect that.

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    It feels like your digging for reasons or him to be bad vs proof that he is bad..like I sad if that's the way u feel bout Lin..that no matter what he does he won't be good enough to be on this team then we are wasting time..you more ten allowed to your opinion but if you can't be moved from it no matter what..then this isn't a discussion

    no I'm not digging for reasons. he is what he is. I have said it before and I will say it again. if Lin remains here it's not the end of the team. if we survived with Kenny smith at point guard during our championship runs then Lin certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility. however if the chance to upgrade that position arises we should jump on it like a hungry bear on asalmon. Lin is a temporary solution, however we should continue to look for a more permanent solution.

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    @RBF The term more commonly used is "sophmore slump" and there's actually a term called "sophmore leap" too. I don't really see any reason why the latter is impossible for Jeremy Lin.

    neitheris impossible......but leap.......less likely (IMO)

  • 2016Champions says 9 months ago

    @RBF The term more commonly used is "sophmore slump" and there's actually a term called "sophmore leap" too. I don't really see any reason why the latter is impossible for Jeremy Lin.

  • Rockets fan newton says 9 months ago


    ever heard of a second year slump? many players shine in rookie years then decline during their second season. I don't doubt Lin's drive or heart his skill is what I'm worried about


    It feels like your digging for reasons or him to be bad vs proof that he is bad..like I sad if that's the way u feel bout Lin..that no matter what he does he won't be good enough to be on this team then we are wasting time..you more ten allowed to your opinion but if you can't be moved from it no matter what..then this isn't a discussion
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    Second year slump? Lin is going into his forth year.

    second year full time starter

  • 2016Champions says 9 months ago

    Second year slump? Lin is going into his forth year.

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    I agree to a point..do you honestly believe that Lin's quality of play won't improve after his first full season in the Nba?? You talk bout the man like its his 10 season and has no plans of trying to improve..he dropped his turnovers per game by half the second half of the season..so we can fully expect he can average 2 a game a still like he did the second half of the year with Dwight on the team..the only thing I can give you is def..there is no reason givin his abilities that he should get blown by on def..if i don't see a significant upgrade in that area I will be disappointed..however there isn't a basis for a argument on the off side..he improved a great deal once he understood his role on the team..and he has had the whole summer to work on improving on the same role..I just don't see how you can still logically argue that Lin will be bad on the off side of the ball..the last 3 months of the season proves that wrong..not to mention he is working daily to improve on what were need from him next year..and I find it sad that there is nothing Lin could do to change your opinion..if he could average 20-10 and you still dont respect him we truly are wasting our time talking to you guys

    ever heard of asecond year slump? many players shine in rookie years then decline during their second season. I don't doubt Lin's drive or heart his skill is what I'm worried about

  • Rockets fan newton says 9 months ago


    I'm not so concerned with his average as I am his quality of play. he could average 20/ 10 and if his play doesn't improve I still won't like it. he could average 10/ 6 but handle the team much better and cut the turnovers and I would be happy. stats are not as important as quality of play


    I agree to a point..do you honestly believe that Lin's quality of play won't improve after his first full season in the Nba?? You talk bout the man like its his 10 season and has no plans of trying to improve..he dropped his turnovers per game by half the second half of the season..so we can fully expect he can average 2 a game a still like he did the second half of the year with Dwight on the team..the only thing I can give you is def..there is no reason givin his abilities that he should get blown by on def..if i don't see a significant upgrade in that area I will be disappointed..however there isn't a basis for a argument on the off side..he improved a great deal once he understood his role on the team..and he has had the whole summer to work on improving on the same role..I just don't see how you can still logically argue that Lin will be bad on the off side of the ball..the last 3 months of the season proves that wrong..not to mention he is working daily to improve on what were need from him next year..and I find it sad that there is nothing Lin could do to change your opinion..if he could average 20-10 and you still dont respect him we truly are wasting our time talking to you guys
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    True, Lin turns the ball over but not as much as Harden. Not sure why you're picking on Lin here? Other than the obvious, you won't be happy until Lin is gone. What if the Rockets win it all next season with Lin as the starting PG? What then?

    if the rockets win it all with lin.......not impossible (IMO) it has no bearing to me. hispersonal play will still concern me if not improved

  • rocketrick says 9 months ago

    I'm not so concerned with his average as I am his quality of play. he could average 20/ 10 and if his play doesn't improve I still won't like it. he could average 10/ 6 but handle the team much better and cut the turnovers and I would be happy. stats are not as important as quality of play

    True, Lin turns the ball over but not as much as Harden. Not sure why you're picking on Lin here? Other than the obvious, you won't be happy until Lin is gone. What if the Rockets win it all next season with Lin as the starting PG? What then?
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    Those that keep saying Harden handled most of the PG duties last year are exaggerating the facts. True, when the ball was in the front court, the Rockets did want the ball in Harden's hands as they felt he was the best playmaker on the team, which he is. However, bringing the ball up the court and leading fast breaks, that is also a primary PG duty which I don't see Harden handling much of. Nor would we want to see Harden handling this (plus popping popcorn, etc.) as this drains a player over the length of a game. Plus if Harden was the primary PG for the Rockets, that would mean he is guarding the opponent's PG which again, makes no sense. Which is why at best I would say Lin and Harden are "sharing" PG duties. Harden didn't have the ball in his hands every single possession either. Any good team realizes they have to mix things up during the game whenever possible.

    I tend to agree with this point of view.

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    Ok atleast your it saying he will be worse then last year like some of the ppl on the blog..and that is average for point gaurds in the Nba..he is 5 points a game away from D Will who had 18-7 last year who makes 20 mil a year..I just don't know what I guys expect from Lin..what's goin to be good enough for you..there are only like 10 Pg that average more then 15/7 which we all know he can do ez..and almost all if them make a lot more money..so my last question and I am for real done..I only talked bout it again cause I respect your opinion a lot and I still can't believe we are so different on Lin when we completely agree on everything else..what does Lin have to average next year for you to admit you were wrong about him RBF?? 15/8??

    I'm not so concerned with his average as I am his quality of play. he could average 20/ 10 and if his play doesn't improve I still won't like it. he could average 10/ 6 but handle the team much better and cut the turnovers and I would be happy. stats are not as important as quality of play

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    RBF, you're cracking me up. :lol: Nice try, but you aren't going to trip me up here. My estimation of Lin is not at issue here. Yours is. I don't want to trade him. You do. Thus, it is your valuation of him that is relevant not mine. Using my valuation as an argument for trading him makes zero sense. You are hurting your own argument.

    Go back to my point that Phoenix won't trade Dragic (their best asset) for a (your valuation) PG who is not good enough to play "PG, SG, or 6th man" (your words). If you were Phoenix why would you trade Dragic (a player you could trade for far more value (since he is so good according to you) for a no good guard and two second round picks. Are you just presuming their GM is not smart enough to do better? You can dance around it all you want, but there is not a single good reason for that trade other than you like it. Do you really think Phoenix can't get a better return on Dragic than Lin and two second rounders? We both know that's not true.

    I've learned plenty about Morey. Further, I've learned enough in life to not need to be told that by you. You can repeat it time and again like you invented it--that doesn't give it any more credence than the last twenty times. In this case, I believe him because it's for the team's best interest--and that's what Morey does.

    John Wall was a joke. You haven't been able to produce another example besides Dragic because they don't exist....and the Dragic one doesn't either. I know you don't want to, but you are going to have to do better or give this one up.

    I have no Lin-colored glasses on. I know a thing or two about basketball and, like it or not, Lin will be a solid contributor for us. I have held steady that I am not against a trade--there just aren't good ones--and if you think Phoenix, or Houston, makes that trade you are the one wearing the tinted glasses. That trade is a lose-lose. :lol:

    wrong your estimation is at question here along with mine. you are the one who believes he's good not me. I have explained to you why the deal is good for phoenix or did you miss that part? I think while Lin's value is diminished he does still hold some. it would be is our best interest to move him before that said value declines any further. also Dragic is not phoenix's best asset Gortat is and even he may be moved before the trade dead line if not before the season. if you think the trade is a lose/ lose then you do have Lin colored glasses on because if you believe Houston will be getting a lesser player then you must have forgotten how he played when he was here. superior to anything Lin has shown us thus far. saying your willing to deal Lin is your way of covering up you're a Lin advocate? the argument nothing out there to shoot for has no merit to me things change in the NBA all the time just because you haven't heard trade rumors on a player doesn't mean his team is unwilling to move him. until the trade calls are made no use in throwing in the towel. that would be the same thing I argued here in the Howard situation. never know until you ask. next I don't feel obligated to provide you with deals to shoot down. I was simply giving you my opinion. whether you disagree ornot doesn't change how I feel. if we disagree big deal....you have a right to like Lin. however to suggest we are stuck with him is a little premature don't you think. as for Morey......I keep repeating he is the GM because maybe you forgot that. you say you haven't then turn around and say harden and howard will decide who will be here and who won't. if you don't believe it then stop making statemenst to the contrary and I promise I won't bring it up again :lol:

  • rocketrick says 9 months ago

    wrong I didn't miss your point I understood your meaning. I just disagree. I think Harden handled most of the point guard duties because he had to. Lin's play was sounpredictable till it dictated Harden doing that. I do agree that our PG must be a good shooter, but he must also be a good PG. when Harden played with Westbrook and Durrant he didn't handle as much as here because that duty was unnecessary there. here because of Lin'sunreliability harden must cover the short fall.

    Those that keep saying Harden handled most of the PG duties last year are exaggerating the facts. True, when the ball was in the front court, the Rockets did want the ball in Harden's hands as they felt he was the best playmaker on the team, which he is. However, bringing the ball up the court and leading fast breaks, that is also a primary PG duty which I don't see Harden handling much of. Nor would we want to see Harden handling this (plus popping popcorn, etc.) as this drains a player over the length of a game. Plus if Harden was the primary PG for the Rockets, that would mean he is guarding the opponent's PG which again, makes no sense. Which is why at best I would say Lin and Harden are "sharing" PG duties. Harden didn't have the ball in his hands every single possession either. Any good team realizes they have to mix things up during the game whenever possible.
  • Rockets fan newton says 9 months ago


    Lin will average 13/7.............he will basically be the same player he was last year. maybe a marginal bump in cutting the turnovers down, but that's about it. I don't see his shooting percentage going up because he struggles to much with confidence to expect a huge bump especially from 3pt land. having Howard in the fold will help him, but you can't get blood from a turnip. I still believe he will be moved if not before the season then shortly there after


    Ok atleast your it saying he will be worse then last year like some of the ppl on the blog..and that is average for point gaurds in the Nba..he is 5 points a game away from D Will who had 18-7 last year who makes 20 mil a year..I just don't know what I guys expect from Lin..what's goin to be good enough for you..there are only like 10 Pg that average more then 15/7 which we all know he can do ez..and almost all if them make a lot more money..so my last question and I am for real done..I only talked bout it again cause I respect your opinion a lot and I still can't believe we are so different on Lin when we completely agree on everything else..what does Lin have to average next year for you to admit you were wrong about him RBF?? 15/8??
  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    RBF, you're cracking me up. :lol: Nice try, but you aren't going to trip me up here. My estimation of Lin is not at issue here. Yours is. I don't want to trade him. You do. Thus, it is your valuation of him that is relevant not mine. Using my valuation as an argument for trading him makes zero sense. You are hurting your own argument.

    Go back to my point that Phoenix won't trade Dragic (their best asset) for a (your valuation) PG who is not good enough to play "PG, SG, or 6th man" (your words). If you were Phoenix why would you trade Dragic (a player you could trade for far more value (since he is so good according to you) for a no good guard and two second round picks. Are you just presuming their GM is not smart enough to do better? You can dance around it all you want, but there is not a single good reason for that trade other than you like it. Do you really think Phoenix can't get a better return on Dragic than Lin and two second rounders? We both know that's not true.

    I've learned plenty about Morey. Further, I've learned enough in life to not need to be told that by you. You can repeat it time and again like you invented it--that doesn't give it any more credence than the last twenty times. In this case, I believe him because it's for the team's best interest--and that's what Morey does.

    John Wall was a joke. You haven't been able to produce another example besides Dragic because they don't exist....and the Dragic one doesn't either. I know you don't want to, but you are going to have to do better or give this one up.

    I have no Lin-colored glasses on. I know a thing or two about basketball and, like it or not, Lin will be a solid contributor for us. I have held steady that I am not against a trade--there just aren't good ones--and if you think Phoenix, or Houston, makes that trade you are the one wearing the tinted glasses. That trade is a lose-lose. :lol:

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    I think it's pretty clear themat Lin will be on the team when the season starts bro..although u are very correct in saying that it wouldn't surprise anyone if Lin and Asik get traded because Morey doesn't mess around with upgrading the team..@Gold..bro just leave it alone with the trade talk with RBF..he doesn't see the simple fact that if he was right Lin would have been traded..he has said that if Morey believes that there is a trade that will upgrade the team then Morey will do it..then says that there are plenty of trades out there that will upgrade the team at PG..if both of those were true then Lin wouldn't be on the team..we are going in circles..and getting a lil personal in our depates..we have all made our points on Lin..lol this is like a 1k long thread..lets just see who is right..and for all your talk about how bad Lin is for this team you still havnt said what you think he will average on the team RBF..it is looking like he is going to stay..go on record and say how good Lin will be on Houston's team next year RBF!!!!!!

    Lin will average 13/7.............he will basically be the same player he was last year. maybe a marginal bump in cutting the turnovers down, but that's about it. I don't see his shooting percentage going up because he struggles to much with confidence to expect a huge bump especially from 3pt land. having Howard in the fold will help him, but you can't get blood from a turnip. I still believe he will be moved if not before the season then shortly there after

  • Rockets fan newton says 9 months ago I think it's pretty clear themat Lin will be on the team when the season starts bro..although u are very correct in saying that it wouldn't surprise anyone if Lin and Asik get traded because Morey doesn't mess around with upgrading the team..@Gold..bro just leave it alone with the trade talk with RBF..he doesn't see the simple fact that if he was right Lin would have been traded..he has said that if Morey believes that there is a trade that will upgrade the team then Morey will do it..then says that there are plenty of trades out there that will upgrade the team at PG..if both of those were true then Lin wouldn't be on the team..we are going in circles..and getting a lil personal in our depates..we have all made our points on Lin..lol this is like a 1k long thread..lets just see who is right..and for all your talk about how bad Lin is for this team you still havnt said what you think he will average on the team RBF..it is looking like he is going to stay..go on record and say how good Lin will be on Houston's team next year RBF!!!!!!
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    Once again, I find your logic faulty. The trade has to be good for both sides. BOTH SIDES. The Rockets don't want Dragic's salary either. It's only one extra year, and if he is losing playing time to Bledsoe and still on a lousy Phoenix team I think he exercises his player option and walks a year early so that means his contract is cheaper than Lin's, for the same length of time, and he is a "better" player. I disagree that Phoenix will trade for Lin (who apparently is way worse than Dragic and costs more) for a couple of second round picks. This trade does not make sense for either side. Plus, as TTDN pointed out again, we do not need a PG. We need a combo/sg to play alongside Harden.

    As far as chemistry goes. No one is saying the team will fall apart, but to discount the synergy that comes from playing with people you genuinely like is short-sighted. I'm sure we have all had work environments like this--on both sides of the coin--and it makes a huge difference when you have to spend a lot of time with these people on a daily basis.

    Going back to Phoenix, if Dragic is so good why wouldn't they trade for a different asset as they have already gotten their PG of the future. To trade for Lin and 2 second rounders (for their best trade chip) seems like a complete waste. This trade just doesn't add up at all.

    Have you read the article that was recently posted where Morey states both Howard and Harden have said they want Lin and Asik to stay? I think in this case he is going to stick to his word.

    I have tried to find a viable trade to put forth and I couldn't do it...Anything that nets us an actual upgrade just costs too much to do to make it appealing to the other team. I mean, what do you want? You think Washington is going to give us John Wall? Nope. Unless a team is tanking (ahem, Philadelphia) we aren't getting a PG upgrade for cheap.

    you may think you find my logic faulty, but I beg to differ. phoenix has moved in a different direction with the acquisition of Bledsoe. they will move Dragic because by the time they are relevant again he won't be able to help them so why not pick up a couple assets? Dragic makes 7.5 mil per compared to 8.3 for Lin(though we both know he will make 20 mil over the next 2 years) so the cap hit is close enough and it gives phoenix a couple trade chips so how is that not good for both teams? if you believe Lin is so good then why will phoenix not want him.......he's younger than Dragic and from your comments he is on par with Dragic. so which is it. is Lin on par with Dragic or not.....if he is why would phoenix not do that deal? I think your like for Lin has clouded your objective judgment of him. he is not a good PG, SG or 6th man. he is below average in any and all departments. I would trade him if we only got a snickers in return :lol:his talent is to easily replaced.......he's no star, no locker room chemistry guru. he is what he is... a below average limited skilled PG. don't try to make him more than he is.

    as for believing Morey....................have you learned nothing from him? this is the same man who said there would be no moves before the trade dead line then turned around and made not1but 2 trades. a statement like this is to easy to get out of......all he would have to say is we found something that we felt made the team better and all is forgotten. Morey is keen to never give his position away so I never write down what he says in ink because it's subject to change........I trust him, but that doesn't mean I believe everything that comes out of his mouth

    as for john wall I'm not impressed yet.....some talent there no doubt, but stays hurt to much and has limits in his game that wouldn't be a good fit with us

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    I think you missed my point RBF. In this system, Harden, not Lin, is our point guard. And that's what the coaches wanted last year. Lin is relegated to a SG role in our system. Getting a pure point would be idiotic unless harden would be willing to slide over to SG(which I have doubts over). I think you believe Harden is a SG and Lin's PG skills were lacking. I disagree. I think Lin's SG skills were lacking and that's what he's working on over the offseason. We saw Lin's PG skills on display when Harden was on the bench. His PG skills are pretty good, but in our system, they're redundant so he's working on things like 3 point shooting and other areas where a SG needs to excel. Getting Dragic would not help our system since his best assets(being a good PG) would be wasted as they are with Lin. Getting a George Hill type or someone along those lines would probably be the best for our team.

    wrong I didn't miss your point I understood your meaning. I just disagree. I think Harden handled most of the point guard duties because he had to. Lin's play was sounpredictable till it dictated Harden doing that. I do agree that our PG must be a good shooter, but he must also be a good PG. when Harden played with Westbrook and Durrant he didn't handle as much as here because that duty was unnecessary there. here because of Lin'sunreliability harden must cover the short fall.

  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    I disagree

    1.it will not take a PF draft pick and Lin to get Dragic............Lin and a couple of second rounders should get it done......why you ask? because phoenix will be looking to get out from under the committed money for Dragic with Bledsoe on board........Lin is good for them because he has a shorter contract, and they can pickup a couple of assets along the way

    2.I don't believe Lin has an off guard's game. first harden will absorb almost all the minutes at that position, but even then there are others I would much prefer to see catching Harden's backup minutes than Lin. face it either Lin becomes a good enough PG or is moved to find one.

    3.everyone acts like the team will breakout in fights if Lin is not there to keep the locker room friendly.............BULLSH*T. the rockets had a good locker room before Lin and will have one after Lin.....just because you subtract one member of the super friends doesn't make the rest go to war. I think Lin has a good locker room presence. but lets not blow it out of the bounds of reason. we will still have a good locker room environment without Lin.

    4.as for the loss of Lin destroying our chemistry..............what chemistry? anytime you add a player of Howard's caliber it changes everything as for as chemistry. new chemistry will have to be found regardless of whether Lin is here or not....so Lin helping chemistry has no creditability to me

    5.since Morey came out and said Lin and Asik are going to be here some seem to have relaxed in the confidence that this will happen...........if I have learned nothing else about Morey it's that younever write down what he says in ink. because it's subject to change. the good GM's never show their hand before the end game......and Morey is one of the best.

    Once again, I find your logic faulty. The trade has to be good for both sides. BOTH SIDES. The Rockets don't want Dragic's salary either. It's only one extra year, and if he is losing playing time to Bledsoe and still on a lousy Phoenix team I think he exercises his player option and walks a year early so that means his contract is cheaper than Lin's, for the same length of time, and he is a "better" player. I disagree that Phoenix will trade for Lin (who apparently is way worse than Dragic and costs more) for a couple of second round picks. This trade does not make sense for either side. Plus, as TTDN pointed out again, we do not need a PG. We need a combo/sg to play alongside Harden.

    As far as chemistry goes. No one is saying the team will fall apart, but to discount the synergy that comes from playing with people you genuinely like is short-sighted. I'm sure we have all had work environments like this--on both sides of the coin--and it makes a huge difference when you have to spend a lot of time with these people on a daily basis.

    Going back to Phoenix, if Dragic is so good why wouldn't they trade for a different asset as they have already gotten their PG of the future. To trade for Lin and 2 second rounders (for their best trade chip) seems like a complete waste. This trade just doesn't add up at all.

    Have you read the article that was recently posted where Morey states both Howard and Harden have said they want Lin and Asik to stay? I think in this case he is going to stick to his word.

    I have tried to find a viable trade to put forth and I couldn't do it...Anything that nets us an actual upgrade just costs too much to do to make it appealing to the other team. I mean, what do you want? You think Washington is going to give us John Wall? Nope. Unless a team is tanking (ahem, Philadelphia) we aren't getting a PG upgrade for cheap.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 9 months ago

    I think you missed my point RBF. In this system, Harden, not Lin, is our point guard. And that's what the coaches wanted last year. Lin is relegated to a SG role in our system. Getting a pure point would be idiotic unless harden would be willing to slide over to SG(which I have doubts over). I think you believe Harden is a SG and Lin's PG skills were lacking. I disagree. I think Lin's SG skills were lacking and that's what he's working on over the offseason. We saw Lin's PG skills on display when Harden was on the bench. His PG skills are pretty good, but in our system, they're redundant so he's working on things like 3 point shooting and other areas where a SG needs to excel. Getting Dragic would not help our system since his best assets(being a good PG) would be wasted as they are with Lin. Getting a George Hill type or someone along those lines would probably be the best for our team.

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    Agree with TTDN that Lin is more of an off-guard, combo/SG something or another.

    Remember that part of the context with the Dragic thing is the trade necessary to acquire him. If Dragic is so much better then Phoenix would want extra assets to sweeten the deal (even with Bledsoe on board). What are you willing to throw in (that Phoenix wants) to get that deal done? This trade would require a PF, a draft pick, and Lin (at least) and there is also the risk of destroying our excellent chemistry (as Lin seems to be at the heart of that along with Parsons). All to add a player who posts nearly identical numbers and will still be our 4th or 5th option. It just doesn't add up to me.

    It's not just about finding a better PG (that's easy), but also finding a trade that makes sense for both sides. I still haven't seen that put forth.

    I disagree

    1.it will not take a PF draft pick and Lin to get Dragic............Lin and a couple of second rounders should get it done......why you ask? because phoenix will be looking to get out from under the committed money for Dragic with Bledsoe on board........Lin is good for them because he has a shorter contract, and they can pickup a couple of assets along the way

    2.I don't believe Lin has an off guard's game. first harden will absorb almost all the minutes at that position, but even then there are others I would much prefer to see catching Harden's backup minutes than Lin. face it either Lin becomes a good enough PG or is moved to find one.

    3.everyone acts like the team will breakout in fights if Lin is not there to keep the locker room friendly.............BULLSH*T. the rockets had a good locker room before Lin and will have one after Lin.....just because you subtract one member of the super friends doesn't make the rest go to war. I think Lin has a good locker room presence. but lets not blow it out of the bounds of reason. we will still have a good locker room environment without Lin.

    4.as for the loss of Lin destroying our chemistry..............what chemistry? anytime you add a player of Howard's caliber it changes everything as for as chemistry. new chemistry will have to be found regardless of whether Lin is here or not....so Lin helping chemistry has no creditability to me

    5.since Morey came out and said Lin and Asik are going to be here some seem to have relaxed in the confidence that this will happen...........if I have learned nothing else about Morey it's that younever write down what he says in ink. because it's subject to change. the good GM's never show their hand before the end game......and Morey is one of the best.

  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    I agree. anything at this point is purely speculation. however (IMO) Lin has not displayed the necessary tools that will be needed from the PG position on this team. some of you guys think his shooting will improve...........I believe marginally at best. some think we can't upgrade because there are no good replacements........I disagree. I tossed Dragic's name out there and was shocked some actually consider Lin on par with Dragic. I suppose it's a matter of opinion, but Dragic is twice the player Lin is even if their stats are similar. there are about 15 PG's in the league....maybe 20 that I would rather have than Lin.

    Agree with TTDN that Lin is more of an off-guard, combo/SG something or another.

    Remember that part of the context with the Dragic thing is the trade necessary to acquire him. If Dragic is so much better then Phoenix would want extra assets to sweeten the deal (even with Bledsoe on board). What are you willing to throw in (that Phoenix wants) to get that deal done? This trade would require a PF, a draft pick, and Lin (at least) and there is also the risk of destroying our excellent chemistry (as Lin seems to be at the heart of that along with Parsons). All to add a player who posts nearly identical numbers and will still be our 4th or 5th option. It just doesn't add up to me.

    It's not just about finding a better PG (that's easy), but also finding a trade that makes sense for both sides. I still haven't seen that put forth.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 9 months ago

    I respect your opinion RBF. You don't try to pass opinions as fact as some on this forum do. I disagree. Lin is getting better shooting the ball as can be seen with the increase in production from the beginning of the season to the end of the season. I think that improvement will continue since I believe he is working on his shot. Handles are harder to improve, and I'm not sure how much better he can get, but as a SG, he doesn't need any better handles. I still postulate that Harden is our PG and Lin is our SG. As long as Lin can shoot the spot up 3 at a 38-42% clip, he will excel in this offense. Now that brings up the fact that his defense is still suspect(though not as much as Harden's defense, IMO). I think he will improve with Howard being an upgrade over Asik and a year of experience under his belt. I think he will be fine as our off guard and as long as Mchale is successful at putting an offensive system into place, this team is a contender with Lin at SG.

    But of course, this is all my opinion and I don't try to present them as facts.

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    Nobody has crystal ball. Lin could be better, worse, or the same next season. You can PREDICT the future but that doesn't mean FACT or TRUTH.

    I agree. anything at this point is purely speculation. however (IMO) Lin has not displayed the necessary tools that will be needed from the PG position on this team. some of you guys think his shooting will improve...........I believe marginally at best. some think we can't upgrade because there are no good replacements........I disagree. I tossed Dragic's name out there and was shocked some actually consider Lin on par with Dragic. I suppose it's a matter of opinion, but Dragic is twice the player Lin is even if their stats are similar. there are about 15 PG's in the league....maybe 20 that I would rather have than Lin.

  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    My best guess for Lin next season is we see his points go down, his assists go up, and his efficiency improve a bit. I'm fine with that.

    I think there are plenty of players in the league that we could substitute for Lin and get, more or less, the same production--and probably for cheaper. The problem goes back to his contract--who trades their PG for Lin straight up? Probably nobody. What assets do we have to include in order to get this PG? Probably too many. I'd rather move forward with Lin. If he stays at the same level then we're still fine...if he gets better then it's a win for us...I don't see his level of play decreasing.

    I get that people think we can do better (when viewed in a vacuum) but I have yet to see a legitimate alternative put forth that makes sense for both sides.

    As I've said before, I'm not against upgrading the position--I just don't see a viable option.

  • webattorney says 9 months ago

    Lol ok..and a average Pg isn't horrible on this team..if want to argue the 8.3 mil cap hit that Lin has that's fine..I have said plenty of times that he is over paid..but dont call us Linsantics cause we don't dog our own player..we believe that a Kid has a shot to improve(or atleast duplicate) the same sec half numbers with Dwight at center..that's Logical sir..I still find it shocking that Fans say that he is going to be much worse then he ever has been..there isn't one person I have heard anywere that says Lin will average 10-7 next year..you "fans" are alone in that believe..well I shouldn't assume all of you agree with Steven..please be brave enough to say what you think he will average next year..I have said 17-9 plenty of times..I'm still waiting to RBF as well..not to compare ur argument with these name calling ppl

    Agree with you. 95% chance that Lin will average anywhere between 13/6 ~ 15/8. Now, that's not bad and is at least an average stats, especially with someone like Harden on the team. If Lin is primary ball-handling PG, I guarantee you that he will average AT LEAST 15/8, period. Again, that's at least decent. I agree with you that it's unfair to cut down a player for being at this time an "average" PG on what was an average team last year. No one foresaw that Rockets would get Harden when Lin came to Rockets. One thing I know for sure, Lin is definitely a better passer than Harden overall, and he loves to make other players look good.

  • Richards says 9 months ago

    Nobody has crystal ball. Lin could be better, worse, or the same next season. You can PREDICT the future but that doesn't mean FACT or TRUTH.

  • Rockets fan newton says 9 months ago And this is what ppl are talking bout with just saying things without proof..were is your point to suggest that Lin will do worse then he did last year..his per and points were higher..you can not assume a point and call ppl names that disagree with you without proof sir..atleast I have last year as my argument..he got better..he averaged 16-7 the sec half of the year..what's your proof in your debate?
  • Rockets fan newton says 9 months ago


    Yup. All the Linsantics will be shown that he average at best.


    Lol ok..and a average Pg isn't horrible on this team..if want to argue the 8.3 mil cap hit that Lin has that's fine..I have said plenty of times that he is over paid..but dont call us Linsantics cause we don't dog our own player..we believe that a Kid has a shot to improve(or atleast duplicate) the same sec half numbers with Dwight at center..that's Logical sir..I still find it shocking that Fans say that he is going to be much worse then he ever has been..there isn't one person I have heard anywere that says Lin will average 10-7 next year..you "fans" are alone in that believe..well I shouldn't assume all of you agree with Steven..please be brave enough to say what you think he will average next year..I have said 17-9 plenty of times..I'm still waiting to RBF as well..not to compare ur argument with these name calling ppl
  • Steven says 9 months ago

    Why did you say that? We all knew that his last season play was no more than average.
    We are trying to be positive on good kid. No need to say negative here.

    Because as a fan, I have the right to be truthful. Why sugarcoat anything? Lin will be an average PG at best, held up by the rest of his teammates in order to make the playoffs. He won't dominate the ball, which he has to do in order to be even remotely decent. His numbers with someone else who needs the ball (Harden/Melo) are average at best. I get that he is a good kid, and overcame the fact 300+ D1 college coaches thought he wasn't worthy of a scholarship, in order to make the NBA. It doesn't grant he asylum on the fact he is an average at best PG.
  • vonsteve says 9 months ago

    Lin is still new to being an active member of the league. Hopefully, he's been working hard to improve his stroke in the offseason. Ballhandling too, but that's a harder skill to improve. That said, I do like the idea of him as a 6th man (playing with Asik). I think a Lin/Asik second unit would be very effective.

  • Richards says 9 months ago

    Yup. All the Linsantics will be shown that he average at best.

    Why did you say that? We all knew that his last season play was no more than average.

    We are trying to be positive on good kid. No need to say negative here.

  • Steven says 9 months ago

    Amen Bro!!!!!
    Can't wait..Lin is going to be prove A LOT of ppl wrong when the season starts

    Yup. All the Linsantics will be shown that he average at best.
  • Rockets fan newton says 9 months ago

    Lin was brought in to be face of the franchise but became Harden's side kick and Rockets didn't invite him to pitch Howard. Now he became no more than 4th option behind Harden/Howard/Parsons.

    He is smart, motivated, and hard working kid. Those type of players never go away easily even if they were beaten up badly. He could come out swinging coming season.

    Amen Bro!!!!!
    Can't wait..Lin is going to be prove A LOT of ppl wrong when the season starts
  • Richards says 9 months ago

    Lin was brought in to be face of the franchise but became Harden's side kick and Rockets didn't invite him to pitch Howard. Now he became no more than 4th option behind Harden/Howard/Parsons.

    He is smart, motivated, and hard working kid. Those type of players never go away easily even if they were beaten up badly. He could come out swinging coming season.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 9 months ago Maybe he's working hard on improving his game....Or maybe he's doing it for a reason and trying to give Dwight the spotlight he wants. Or maybe Morey told him he's going to be traded and until the situation plays itself out, there's no upside to speaking publicly.

    There's a multitude of possibilities so I'm not going to speculate.
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    I am becoming concerned about Lin's silence since the Dwight Howard acquisition. And the silence is deafening. I just hope it's nothing more than being too busy with his workouts or something.

    I hopeit means he has one foot on a roller skate and the other foot on a banana peel. :lol:just about to slide clean out of the picture

  • Hockey the Harden Way says 9 months ago

    I am becoming concerned about Lin's silence since the Dwight Howard acquisition. And the silence is deafening. I just hope it's nothing more than being too busy with his workouts or something.

  • webattorney says 9 months ago

    They have the same assist to turnover ratio so I'm not sure how you can claim one is superior there. Further, the fg% favors Dragic by 2 percentage points and Lin has a slight edge in 3fg%. Last year was Dragic's first as a starter and his numbers dipped...it is easier to succeed against another team's bench players. He's a fine shooter--this just comes down to personal preference. Claiming your opinions as facts just doesn't bear any weight as the actual facts show it's simply not true. For the record, I have watched Dragic...I remember watching him when he was Nash's back-up in Phoenix. I feel the same about them taking "clutch" shots.

    Also, you are neglecting the better defense Lin provides...every measure I can find says the same--Lin's D is superior. Pair that with a draw on offensive production and I think Lin wins! B)

    For good measure, here are Dragic and Lin's "Clutch Stats" from 82games.com

    YIsoPO1.jpg

    FWIW, I wouldn't trade Lin with Dragic, until I saw Lin play during this season, because I feel Dragic is close to his ceiling, while Lin has a more upside.

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    Getting away from this a bit....I still would love if the Rox mixed it up and put Harden and Garcia/Anderson together to start games and then let Lin&Bev come in and dominate the second units. Garcia and Anderson are perfect off the ball compliments to Harden and as 4th/5th options on offense don't need to do much more than space the floor and keep defenders honest.

    With Lin/Bev on the second unit you get a decided talent advantage over most teams. I mean, am I supposed to believe that Lin can't out-perform the likes of JJ Barea, DJ Augustin, Pablo Prigioni, and a slew of other guys I can't name?

    Meanwhile, in this league that has such strong PG play why not start putting guys like Francisco Garcia, James Anderson, etc. on them...they are nearly as quick, but have excellent size advantages....it can't be any worse, right?

    Anderson is starting to discourage me on his potential. I still have not seen the player I saw with the spurs. I really don't know if he will make the team this year.

  • redfaithful says 9 months ago

    If Lin embraces the 6th man role, it makes perfect sense to me. And you end each game with the group that fits, which means a lot of different combinations in different nights.

  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    Getting away from this a bit....I still would love if the Rox mixed it up and put Harden and Garcia/Anderson together to start games and then let Lin&Bev come in and dominate the second units. Garcia and Anderson are perfect off the ball compliments to Harden and as 4th/5th options on offense don't need to do much more than space the floor and keep defenders honest.

    With Lin/Bev on the second unit you get a decided talent advantage over most teams. I mean, am I supposed to believe that Lin can't out-perform the likes of JJ Barea, DJ Augustin, Pablo Prigioni, and a slew of other guys I can't name?

    Meanwhile, in this league that has such strong PG play why not start putting guys like Francisco Garcia, James Anderson, etc. on them...they are nearly as quick, but have excellent size advantages....it can't be any worse, right?

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    DEFENSE? DEFENSE? neither of these two play very good defense so that's a moot point. however I guess you are right in that it comes down to preference because when I look at the two the difference is huge to.me. given a choice between the two I take Dragic 8 times a week. he is a better smarter (basketball IQ) morepolished player.

    @thenit

    I agree on your point that Lin is most effective in a chaos kind of way and that may carry some weight in how he is viewed

  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    thetwo areas where Dragic is superior to Lin is shooting and assist to turnover ratio. I don't agree Lin has alot of room left to grow........he will always be turnover prone. we need a PG who can protect the basketball and shoot spot up 3's. I won't reopen the past debates on Lin but he will never be the player Dragic is right now. Dragic is a big shot taker and maker.....I will never be comfortable with Lin in that role. as for the stats comparing the two.....they may be similar, but they can't tell you the difference between the two players you have to watch them play. if you had a crunch time shot that needed to be made........who would you rather take that shot between Lin and Dragic? I pick Dragic

    They have the same assist to turnover ratio so I'm not sure how you can claim one is superior there. Further, the fg% favors Dragic by 2 percentage points and Lin has a slight edge in 3fg%. Last year was Dragic's first as a starter and his numbers dipped...it is easier to succeed against another team's bench players. He's a fine shooter--this just comes down to personal preference. Claiming your opinions as facts just doesn't bear any weight as the actual facts show it's simply not true. For the record, I have watched Dragic...I remember watching him when he was Nash's back-up in Phoenix. I feel the same about them taking "clutch" shots.

    Also, you are neglecting the better defense Lin provides...every measure I can find says the same--Lin's D is superior. Pair that with a draw on offensive production and I think Lin wins! B)

    For good measure, here are Dragic and Lin's "Clutch Stats" from 82games.com

    YIsoPO1.jpg

  • thenit says 9 months ago

    Their turnover rate is about the same, and the same with 3point shooting as well as assists.

    I would agree that Lin's turnovers just looks bad because he is reckless at times and take high risk passes as well as jumping up for a pass and get stuck in the air with no options. I agree with Johnnys sentiment that it really isn't much difference. I can't recall Dragic ever hit a lot of winners or taking over the 4th Quarter more than what Lin has done. Both are inexperienced on that field and at crunch time neither of them would have the ball in their hands unless the play called for Harden collapses and its a desperation heave.

    Maybe its just that Dragic plays a more polish game and Lin kind of is at his best when he plays in somewhat chaos situation as Westbrook does albeit he doesn't do it as well as Russ. Dragic looks more seasoned and polished but he also has played PG most of his life in comparison to Lin who only played about 1.5 year now.

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    OK RBF, I used their per 36 numbers since Dragic split time pretty evenly with Lowry that year.

    Dragic ('11-'12) - 16 pts, 7 asts, 3.5 rebs, 46.2% fg and 33.7% 3fg with 3.2 to's ($7.5M and age 27)

    Lin ('12-'13) - 15 pts, 7 asts, 3.4 rebs, 44.1% and 33.9% 3fg with 3.2 to's ($8.3M and age 24)

    *and this is with a 21.8 usg% for Dragic vs. 20.8 usg% for Lin which is roughly a 5% advantage for Dragic.

    I will add that those stats for Dragic were often against second units and he is older and more seasoned than Lin. For a complimentary player (as any pg not named CP3 will be on this team) it seems like splitting hairs over $800,000 dollars. Further, Dragic being 3 years older means he has probably gotten pretty close to his ceiling whereas Lin has room to improve still.

    I think this is a matter of personal preference than anything basketball related. Lin has plenty of leadership qualities and the trump card of being a great team chemistry guy that guys like Harden and Parsons really like. Keeping them happy has value too.

    I'll concede that Dragic would do well here too, but to imply that he is some kind of upgrade at the position is a stretch to me--head to head I just don't see enough difference to warrant a trade.

    Got another alternative?

    thetwo areas where Dragic is superior to Lin is shooting and assist to turnover ratio. I don't agree Lin has alot of room left to grow........he will always be turnover prone. we need a PG who can protect the basketball and shoot spot up 3's. I won't reopen the past debates on Lin but he will never be the player Dragic is right now. Dragic is a big shot taker and maker.....I will never be comfortable with Lin in that role. as for the stats comparing the two.....they may be similar, but they can't tell you the difference between the two players you have to watch them play. if you had a crunch time shot that needed to be made........who would you rather take that shot between Lin and Dragic? I pick Dragic

  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    OK RBF, I used their per 36 numbers since Dragic split time pretty evenly with Lowry that year.

    Dragic ('11-'12) - 16 pts, 7 asts, 3.5 rebs, 46.2% fg and 33.7% 3fg with 3.2 to's ($7.5M and age 27)

    Lin ('12-'13) - 15 pts, 7 asts, 3.4 rebs, 44.1% and 33.9% 3fg with 3.2 to's ($8.3M and age 24)

    *and this is with a 21.8 usg% for Dragic vs. 20.8 usg% for Lin which is roughly a 5% advantage for Dragic.

    I will add that those stats for Dragic were often against second units and he is older and more seasoned than Lin. For a complimentary player (as any pg not named CP3 will be on this team) it seems like splitting hairs over $800,000 dollars. Further, Dragic being 3 years older means he has probably gotten pretty close to his ceiling whereas Lin has room to improve still.

    I think this is a matter of personal preference than anything basketball related. Lin has plenty of leadership qualities and the trump card of being a great team chemistry guy that guys like Harden and Parsons really like. Keeping them happy has value too.

    I'll concede that Dragic would do well here too, but to imply that he is some kind of upgrade at the position is a stretch to me--head to head I just don't see enough difference to warrant a trade.

    Got another alternative?

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    RBF, you should take a whirl over at mysynergysports.com and do a side by side with Lin and Dragic...I think you will be surprised to see that overall, Lin and Dragic are equals on offense....and Lin is actually better on defense. Maybe Dragic's numbers would improve in our system....maybe not...either way trading for Dragic makes us worse due to the chemistry factor.

    Got anybody else that could realistically be traded for?

    that might be true (their stats are comparable) however Dragic knows how to run a team better and is a better overall shooter. I would surmise that a lot of the drop off in dragic's game is due to the personel around him. a better comparison would be to match Lin's numbers this year to dragic's last year. Dragic is the better player and makes less money.

  • webattorney says 9 months ago

    Red94, I agree with everything you said. I don't know what it is, but I feel that some aspects of his game is raw; it may be due to his Ivy League style of play. Even with Mac's inconsistent handling of Lin, I think Lin's play during last season has been inconsistent than it should have been.

  • Cooper says 9 months ago Mildly realisticly Could go chalmers, Allen or miller and Anthony for asik. Maybe asik to dallas for crowder/ledo pick. Lin to Detroit for tony Mitchell and a protected first.
  • thenit says 9 months ago

    I don't know, maybe because they were all drafted in the top ten? Maybe because the three, actually got a Division 1 scholarship? Maybe because one took his team to the national championship game, one is a 6'6" pass first PG, and the third was second in the NCAA in scoring? And yes I would trade Jeremy Lin for any of the three no questions asked.

    Just because you get a scholarship doesn't mean you have a future in the NBA and if you don't get one that you have no chance. The odds is in your favor since you have better coaches and perceived as more talented than your peers. But none of them has proven to be a NBA player yet. And we are suppose to be in a win now mode. And if we were rebuilding I would make that trade, but we aren't and we aren't going to gamble on possible upside. And they were drafted top 10 in a verypoor talent pool. The way you talk about Lin is like you trade him for a bag of peanuts. Proclaiming that Cannaan might surpass Lin during the season.

    There are so many examples of busts in the drafts that you can't have a perfect record on drafting players, and I would take that gamble if were rebuilding but not at this moment. That's my point we are not upgrading. And there isn't any viable upgrades via trades at PG. Where the other team and Rockets would make a viable trade.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 9 months ago Lol. The point would be to get a proven PG to make a run. Trading for a rookie takes us backwards.
  • Steven says 9 months ago

    I don't care how much you dislike or love a player, but how can you compare rookies to players that already in the league without knowing how they will perform at nba level ? Once they have played half a season or so it would be justified to have a somewhat comparison. Especially a 2nd rounder from a mid size conference, you don't really know what he can do at a higher level. I'm all in for potential but its hard to start saying rookies are better than x player when they haven't competed on the NBA stage unless you are once an elite talent like James Wiggins, Melo, KD etc.

    And there is better odds on pigs flying that GSW would trade Curry for Asik and Lin.

    I don't know, maybe because they were all drafted in the top ten? Maybe because the three, actually got a Division 1 scholarship? Maybe because one took his team to the national championship game, one is a 6'6" pass first PG, and the third was second in the NCAA in scoring? And yes I would trade Jeremy Lin for any of the three no questions asked.
  • thenit says 9 months ago

    RBF, you should take a whirl over at mysynergysports.com and do a side by side with Lin and Dragic...I think you will be surprised to see that overall, Lin and Dragic are equals on offense....and Lin is actually better on defense. Maybe Dragic's numbers would improve in our system....maybe not...either way trading for Dragic makes us worse due to the chemistry factor.

    Got anybody else that could realistically be traded for?

    Agree on this, if Lin had the same usage rate as dragic, and vice versa the numbers would reflect that. Dragic would dip and Lin would increase.

    Lin is not a superstar or even close to an elite player, but there was a huge difference when he ran the team without harden for a few games compared to with, and when he was with the knicks before melo and stat came back his usage rate was much higher therefore his numbers was inflated due to that. Once the stars came back lin was averaging I believe something like 15 and 7 which I think would be his numbers next season maybe 16-8 something in that range. Which is fine. If you have 2 elite players and Parsons, Lin don't have to be great he has to be serviceable like Chalmers and hit his open 3s. With his production he is overpaid capwise but there isn't a lot of viable upgrades available unless we give up our young talent depth.

  • thenit says 9 months ago

    I think I had him around 16 but I didn't include rookies. Trey Burke, MCW, McCollum are probably better as well. Canaan might take his job during the season, that's why the Rockets are looking to move him. My preference is to the GSW with Asik for Steph Curry.

    I don't care how much you dislike or love a player, but how can you compare rookies to players that already in the league without knowing how they will perform at nba level ? Once they have played half a season or so it would be justified to have a somewhat comparison. Especially a 2nd rounder from a mid size conference, you don't really know what he can do at a higher level. I'm all in for potential but its hard to start saying rookies are better than x player when they haven't competed on the NBA stage unless you are once an elite talent like James Wiggins, Melo, KDetc.

    And there is better odds on pigs flying that GSW would trade Curry for Asik and Lin.

  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    RBF, you should take a whirl over at mysynergysports.com and do a side by side with Lin and Dragic...I think you will be surprised to see that overall, Lin and Dragic are equals on offense....and Lin is actually better on defense. Maybe Dragic's numbers would improve in our system....maybe not...either way trading for Dragic makes us worse due to the chemistry factor.

    Got anybody else that could realistically be traded for?

  • Steven says 9 months ago I think I had him around 16 but I didn't include rookies. Trey Burke, MCW, McCollum are probably better as well. Canaan might take his job during the season, that's why the Rockets are looking to move him. My preference is to the GSW with Asik for Steph Curry.
  • Drew in Abilene says 9 months ago

    It seems like most people who responded to my question ranked him somewhere between 15-25 in the league. Several argued that while there were certainly better players, some of them wouldn't fit as well with the Houston lineup as Lin does.

    I guess my thought is that while it would be nice to have a top ten player at every position, that hope seems impossible. While I'm certainly a Lin fan and apologist, I can definitely see how many are unhappy with his production to pay ratio. If he were compensated closer to what his production merits, it would free up some cash to throw at other players.

    With that in mind, my thought would be that Lin isn't Houston's biggest problem for the near future. I think figuring out who will play power forward and rounding out the bench are more important than finding an upgrade at point guard. Sure he's overpaid some, but he's not terrible. Sure he's has flashes of great play, but he's not phenomenal. He's somewhere in the middle, and for a team with Harden and Howard, it seems like a decent point guard who can hit open threes and run the pick-and-roll effectively will be fine. He's shown he can be strong at the p-n-r, and I get the feeling he's been working on his three point stroke all summer.

    Finally, something not so much stats or salary related. From everything I've seen/read about Lin, he seems like a genuinely good guy. I think a strong, positive locker room influence is going to be really important in the coming few years. I'm really hopeful that Howard has turned a corner, and that he's more mature now than he has been in the past. I also think that the Rockets' team culture of fun will keep him happier. But I also think a guy like Lin has the chance to really keep Howard from getting sulky or selfish. Obviously that's just speculation, and I could be dead wrong, but I think if that were the case, it would be worth some extra dollars to keep Lin around.

    Just my two cents, but thanks for being open-minded enough to listen to my ideas, and agree/disagree in a classy way. It's one of the things I really like about this forum.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 9 months ago LOL.
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    The Suns aren't that stupid.

    maybe........they just got Bledsoe. it appears he is the PG of their future. or how about this asik and lin for gortat and dragic plus their # 1 2015

  • Steven says 9 months ago


    how about Lin and 2 # two's for dragic?


    The Suns aren't that stupid.
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    I'm with you Drew. I get that, in a vacuum, it is easy to say that Lin is not nearly as good as many of the other PGs in the league.

    However, once you eliminate the PGs who are already entrenched on a team and factor in the "right fit" at the right price I don't see better options laying around. I believe the trade Lin talk will quiet down once the season gets going and (hopefully) he shows the necessary improvement in his shooting and turnovers. It would be great if his cap hit was only $5M per year, but that contract was done before Harden and Howard--at the time it made sense. If he is still around when that contract expires I think he will re-sign at a more cap-friendly level and everyone will be happy. The other option is to let him walk and lure a different PG to the team. Trading him for an upgrade just doesn't seem viable to me without off-loading too much depth/talent at other positions as well.

    how about Lin and 2 # two's for dragic?

  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    I'm for sure biased, so I'll ask a question then let others discuss for a while, but I'm interested in a couple of things regarding NBA point guards. Out of all the NBA PGs, where do you think Jeremy Lin actually ranks? Who would you consider better than him? I know there are probably a whole lot of guys on that list for many posters here, but I'm just trying to better understand why so many people want to ship him out, and who they think would be an upgrade.

    I'm with you Drew. I get that, in a vacuum, it is easy to say that Lin is not nearly as good as many of the other PGs in the league.

    However, once you eliminate the PGs who are already entrenched on a team and factor in the "right fit" at the right price I don't see better options laying around. I believe the trade Lin talk will quiet down once the season gets going and (hopefully) he shows the necessary improvement in his shooting and turnovers. It would be great if his cap hit was only $5M per year, but that contract was done before Harden and Howard--at the time it made sense. If he is still around when that contract expires I think he will re-sign at a more cap-friendly level and everyone will be happy. The other option is to let him walk and lure a different PG to the team. Trading him for an upgrade just doesn't seem viable to me without off-loading too much depth/talent at other positions as well.

  • Richards says 9 months ago

    Please don't go after Rondo. Yes. He is one of the best PG. But with him, Harden, and Howard, they all wants ball play through them. Not a ideal solution for Rockets. Lin's unselfish play made Harden better in numbers. Lin is a serviceable PG. Can't tweak too much unless we found a really good fit. I prefer to address at PF before PG. Still, D-Mo and TJ should be given a chance before make any move.

  • thenit says 9 months ago

    Fans almost always overvalue their teams own players as is the case with Lin.

    I would agree with this but I also think we are too in love with Harden, Bev and Parsons. Especially Harden has a lot of weaknesses, turnovers, lack of defence, 40% of the nights he is shooting well below average, maybe ego (TBD with Howard) etc.

    He is still elite but people are saying that he is better than when T-Mac peaked and he is close to Kobe etc.

    In terms of Lin, I would rank him in hte bottom half of the starting PGs probably around 20-25.

    In regars about Rondo, he is one of the top pg if he has the ball but as a fit to Houston he must be the worst possible fit of all players, selfish negeative leader, can't shoot, needs the ball which negates Harden skillset.

    Best fit would be a Fisher type of PG. A spot up shooter who doesnt need the ball in his hand.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 9 months ago

    He's an average starting point guard. I'd rank him somewhere between 14-18. That might be overvaluing him, but I don't think so. I can see both sides of the argument. But that is true that fans overvalue their own players. But that's also the case with Harden, Parsons, and Asik, and even coach Mchale. So I'm not sure why you would bring that up when talking about Lin. Every logical fan knows they're a little biased.

  • feelingsupersonic says 9 months ago Fans almost always overvalue their teams own players as is the case with Lin.
  • ale11 says 9 months ago

    We all said millions of times that Lin needed to improve his outside shooting in order to fit better with Harden's ball hog. Rondo has NO outside shooting, that's why he wouldn't fit this team, adding to being a ball hogger himself at times and an allegedly negative leader.

    Of course he is the better PG and probably always will be, but Lin fits us better, hands down.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 9 months ago

    Obviously Rondo's a better player right now. That's not even debatable. But I still believe that Rondo would be too ball dominant for either Harden or Howard to like. It would kill the team's chemistry before it had a chance to come together.

    I agree that it might be better for this team for Harden to go back to playing SG, but I don't think it's something he'd willingly do. He's in the vein of Kobe/AI/Wade/Westbrook/Rose/etc... ball dominant guards who love to ISO. Luckily he's not too in love with his jumpshot and doesn't take a lot of long 2s, so he won't be as efficient as those guys have been.

  • feelingsupersonic says 9 months ago It's not even close. Rondo is light years more talented than Lin and would even be better for this team but the change might be too seismic at this exact moment. Harden and Howard need a season to mesh and gain each others trust.
  • Steven says 9 months ago


    Rondo is NOT an upgrade over Lin on this team. He improves the defense but would be a no show on offense without the ball in his hands.


    He didn't say on this team, he said who is BETTER. I stated who I believe is better.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 9 months ago Rondo is NOT an upgrade over Lin on this team. He improves the defense but would be a no show on offense without the ball in his hands.
  • Steven says 9 months ago

    I'm for sure biased, so I'll ask a question then let others discuss for a while, but I'm interested in a couple of things regarding NBA point guards. Out of all the NBA PGs, where do you think Jeremy Lin actually ranks? Who would you consider better than him? I know there are probably a whole lot of guys on that list for many posters here, but I'm just trying to better understand why so many people want to ship him out, and who they think would be an upgrade.

    Going West to East (no incoming rookies)
    Lillard, Curry, CP3, =Dragic, Lawson, Parker, Westbrook, Conley, Rubio, Holliday, Rondo, D-Will, Rose, Irving, Jennings, Wall.
  • Drew in Abilene says 9 months ago

    I'm for sure biased, so I'll ask a question then let others discuss for a while, but I'm interested in a couple of things regarding NBA point guards. Out of all the NBA PGs, where do you think Jeremy Lin actually ranks? Who would you consider better than him? I know there are probably a whole lot of guys on that list for many posters here, but I'm just trying to better understand why so many people want to ship him out, and who they think would be an upgrade.

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    All signs point to keeping him as being the best choice now. I believe he will improve from last year but may not get an increase in playing time insuring that we never here the end of it from Lin devotees. It almost pains me to have so much discussion about an average player.

    I would like to acknowledge he is a great team guy which you cannot put a price on.

    I mostly agree. unless we can get another quality starting PG it won't hurt to take a look at him early in the season to see if he has improved, but Morey still has 3months before the season. he may pull the rabbit out of the hat again. I'm through underestimating the man's ability.

  • Steven says 9 months ago


    No one can sign until Wednesday, but he has officially rejected calls ever since Doc agreed to move. It's a done deal.


    Doc one ring McHale three who wins?
  • quatin says 9 months ago

    No one can sign until Wednesday, but he has officially rejected calls ever since Doc agreed to move. It's a done deal.

  • Steven says 9 months ago

    Did he sign or did he agree to a deal? Huge difference.

  • 2016Champions says 9 months ago

    I say we make a run at CP3 now that we have Howard in tow. Make him change his mind and come to Houston as well.

    Cp3 re-signed with the Clippers 5 days ago (July 1st):http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/clippers/2013/07/01/chris-paul-resigns-with-los-angeles-clippers/2479499/

  • Steven says 9 months ago I say we make a run at CP3 now that we have Howard in tow. Make him change his mind and come to Houston as well.
  • Drew in Abilene says 9 months ago

    I'm cool with him not increasing in playing time, or even decreasing as Beverley improves. Hopefully that will decrease the chance of an injury derailing our season by having two quality point guards, neither of which are overplayed.

  • feelingsupersonic says 9 months ago All signs point to keeping him as being the best choice now. I believe he will improve from last year but may not get an increase in playing time insuring that we never here the end of it from Lin devotees. It almost pains me to have so much discussion about an average player.

    I would like to acknowledge he is a great team guy which you cannot put a price on.
  • Drew in Abilene says 9 months ago

    So, reports are saying that the Rockets are not looking to move Lin. Calderon is locked into a four year deal with Dallas, and he would have been expensive and not necessarily an upgrade over Lin. At this point, I think rolling with Lin is our best option for the time being. He improved his shooting stroke over the course of last season, and I think we should give him a shot at continuing to get better with the core of Harden, Howard, and Parsons. As Huq wrote in his latest blog post, even with his deficiencies, he is still a weapon, and Houston will need a plethora of weapons for long playoff runs.

    Besides his upside, Lin's trade value isn't exactly sky-high right now. I doubt it will get much lower next season, and has the potential to go up. Why send him out now for less, when the Rockets can see if he meshes well this coming season, then send him out as an expiring deal later if necessary?

  • Steven says 9 months ago

    The Royce part was a joke, of course....

    I'm ok with Brooks.

    I know that Detroit offered Josh Smith a deal....does the 3 day timeline go into effect on the 10th?

    No timeline for UFA.
  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    The Royce part was a joke, of course....

    I'm ok with Brooks.

    I know that Detroit offered Josh Smith a deal....does the 3 day timeline go into effect on the 10th?

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    That's fair. I've never really gotten to see him play much. I see highlights on sportscenter and his stat sheet--that's it. I do think his price tag is a big deterrent. Unless he takes a considerable pay cut it doesn't make sense....this is why I think Lin+Asik are getting packaged together to Atlanta for Josh Smith. That makes sense. Atlanta wants a defensive Center and I think Lin still holds value--his numbers in the four games playing without Harden this year were solid and I think he can lead an offense--especially one with two quality bigs like Horford and Asik. This gives Atlanta the ability to shop one of their other pg's and try to get a SG or SF to fill out the roster...maybe they'll take Royce White off our hands :o !

    I was with you all the way to the Royce comment :lol:to put Royce in a deal to Atlanta we are probably going to have to toss in a 1st rounder. our cap space is going to be limited after we sign both Howard and trade for j-smith. I say bring brooks back.

  • thenit says 9 months ago

    If I would rank pgs Calderon is in my top 10 but he is a worst fit than Lin for us. Because he can't beat his man and he is even worst than Lin playing as an off guard. It's the same as Rondo, but the difference is Calderon can hit jumpers but he is so reluctant to a fault.

  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    That's fair. I've never really gotten to see him play much. I see highlights on sportscenter and his stat sheet--that's it. I do think his price tag is a big deterrent. Unless he takes a considerable pay cut it doesn't make sense....this is why I think Lin+Asik are getting packaged together to Atlanta for Josh Smith. That makes sense. Atlanta wants a defensive Center and I think Lin still holds value--his numbers in the four games playing without Harden this year were solid and I think he can lead an offense--especially one with two quality bigs like Horford and Asik. This gives Atlanta the ability to shop one of their other pg's and try to get a SG or SF to fill out the roster...maybe they'll take Royce White off our hands :o !

  • thenit says 9 months ago

    Whether you like Lin or not, replacing him with Calderon is the second worst option after rondo. Calderon will command about the same money possibly more. Also Calderon like Rondo is a ball dominant pointguard and doesn't play well off the ball. Living in Toronto the past 5 years I have watched a lot of him. He is not a nice fit next to Harden. I rather us keep Lin, and if we have to trade him, I rather just stick with Bev and try to sign a veteran for a lot less than what Calderon will command.

    Calderon 3point shooting is good, but he is a very reluctant shooter, here in Toronto people hated him that he wasn't more selfish and always tries to set people up. And to me its, that you can't teach an old dog to sit so Calderon won't change his game enough to fit in Houston

  • rocketrick says 9 months ago

    Lin detractors would be happy with him being traded for just aboutanybody just to get their way.

    Calderon turns 32 in September. He made over $11 million last year. Not sure why people think he would be a better fit for the Rockets, especially considering Lin's contract is for only 2 more years (valuable as a trade piece down the road when teams desire an expiring contract in that last season).

    It would seem wise to have some roster stability going into next season especially since about half the team had to be waived to make the necessary run for D12.

    I would venture a guess that if D12 signs, Asik is the guy most likely to be headed out of Houston as the position he plays currently has few consequential players in the leaguein addition to the fact teams simply value Asik much higher than Lin resulting in much better return.

    If Morey expects a starting PG in return for trading Lin, well,I just don't see that happening.

    In any event, I'd be very surprised if the Rockets trade either Lin or Asik until the outcome of the D12 Sweepstakes is determined.

  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    What's with Calderon--I didn't see his name mentioned anywhere? I'm not a fan of this at all.

    I am conflicted at what appears to be the Rockets' plan--Sign Dwight, trade lin+asik for Josh Smith in a sign and trade and hopefully re-sign francisco garcia (or something like him) and a vet PG to back up Beverley.

    New Houston roster:

    Bev, Harden, Parsons, JSmith, Howard. Yeah, I can live with that. I hate to see Lin and Asik go as I liked rooting for them, but that roster is ridiculous....a little light on depth, but if we're healthy come playoff time watch out!

  • feelingsupersonic says 9 months ago

    I'm sorry, when you posted your issues with timetodie's post publicly on this thread, I thought it was public. I guess I was wrong.

    I'll just leave this forum altogether.

    Best of luck to the Rockets.

    Please check you personal messages.

  • manmythlegend says 9 months ago

    If you have a problem with a fellow forum member manmyth I suggest you avoid what you posted above and always point out any problems through a message. Also the message I wrote is concerning timetodie and no one else so I expect you to immediately leave this discussion. Thank you.

    I'm sorry, when you posted your issues with timetodie's post publicly on this thread, I thought it was public. I guess I was wrong.

    I'll just leave this forum altogether.

    Best of luck to the Rockets.

  • feelingsupersonic says 9 months ago If you have a problem with a fellow forum member manmyth I suggest you avoid what you posted above and always point out any problems through a message. Also the message I wrote is concerning timetodie and no one else so I expect you to immediately leave this discussion. Thank you.
  • manmythlegend says 9 months ago

    thenit/manmythlegend/2016/thwjohnnygold/Richards

    JG I will get to your comments in a second, but first the others. I told you guys I don't hate lin. I have explain why lin is coming up short of earning his contract. if you all are ok with average play hurray for you. I am not. I know very well how lin's money is broke down 2016. you haven't shed any light of the subject that wasn't already there. manmythlegend every one of those PG's you list except nash, udrih and harris are better than lin. and even harris and udrih are debatable.so why should he be making money on par with them? lin is not a top 15 or 20 pg. he doesn't deserve to be paid like one. I told you everybody has excuses so I don't want to hear them because they have no credibility in my book. I'm trying not to bash the kid, but fact is I didn't even talk about the turnovers and lack of tuffness lin has. this player has to many shortcoming to be even considered average. if you want to have a love fest with him go right ahead. but I won't be slipping on any rose colored glasses when I look at him. in addition all of you who think I will be crying in my frosted flakes because lin is here for the long haul....need to get a grip on reality. the rockets don't sendany checks to my house. my bills will be paid and I will continue to eat well whether lin is hear or not. if your world is so small that your favorite sports teams roster affects your quality of life you need to expand you horizon because your focus has become so shallow that you are in danger of slipping into la la land :lol:

    ok JG your turn :lol: at least you put up a reasonable response discussing the facts. the others are talking maybe out of the other end :lol:lin may very well resolve some of the issues I listed. however I am not as optimistic about his ability to overcome these faults as you are. can we survive with lin on the roster.....sure... especially if we sign D-12 which I am confident we will. however is that money being well spent? not in my opinion. we have better options to spend the 16.6 mil that will count against our cap over the next 2 years. worse case we ride lin's contract out and let him walk is not a major disaster. lin is capable enough to hang on to superman's cape for the ride. I told all of you I don't hate the man, but don't pitch him to me like he is the next coming of nash. call him out for what he is.....a slightly below average point guard. there is a reason bev is slowly eating into lin's minutes. right now he is a better player. can that change?..........maybe, but the odds are against it (IMO)

    These type of comments serve no purpose and should never be posted in this forum. Check your messages promptly.

    In general feelingsupersonic, I agree with this sentiment. I just hope it applies to everyone; RBF made a similar dismissive remark directed towards me and others (In Bold above, and which he later retracted) earlier in this thread which didn't seem to register on any of the moderator's Richter scale. I felt then and still do that it was inappropriate and disrespectful.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 9 months ago Lol sorry it was a joke and taken as such. I apologize good sir.
  • feelingsupersonic says 9 months ago

    Lol. You remind me of my little sister when she was 5.



    These type of comments serve no purpose and should never be posted in this forum. Check your messages promptly.
  • Steven says 9 months ago


    But the Rockets already have the smooth shooting, 30-footer bombing Canaan on the roster. He ready.


    Better safe then sorry.
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    I stand partially corrected. But if the Rox can land Calderon for Lin, then this would counter your stance that Lin had no trade value.

    Lin ending up in Detroit would be a good place for him. Lots of young bigs to work with and he would have a lot more usage. The Rox making a move for Calderon would signal a win-immediately mentality. I'm sure you'd be bench pressing your car with all of your excitement over this potential scenario.

    Calderon is a free agent. I doubt the rockets will do a sign and trade to get him, but it's possible

    Lol. You remind me of my little sister when she was 5.

    she showed special abilities at a young age too huh! :lol:

  • manmythlegend says 9 months ago

    Just say No to Calderon. Llull is the PG needed on the roster.


    But the Rockets already have the smooth shooting, 30-footer bombing Canaan on the roster. He ready.
  • Steven says 9 months ago Just say No to Calderon. Llull is the PG needed on the roster.
  • manmythlegend says 9 months ago

    for all those who thought it was out of the question when I suggested the rockets trade Lin
    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/ken-berger/22588779/sources-confident-rockets-make-asik-lin-available-in-trades


    I stand partially corrected. But if the Rox can land Calderon for Lin, then this would counter your stance that Lin had no trade value.

    Lin ending up in Detroit would be a good place for him. Lots of young bigs to work with and he would have a lot more usage. The Rox making a move for Calderon would signal a win-immediately mentality. I'm sure you'd be bench pressing your car with all of your excitement over this potential scenario.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 9 months ago Lol. You remind me of my little sister when she was 5.
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    for all those who thought it was out of the question when I suggested the rockets trade Lin

    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/ken-berger/22588779/sources-confident-rockets-make-asik-lin-available-in-trades

  • Ostrow says 9 months ago

    The decade or century?

    Huh?

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    Why would D12 want to come to Houston if he knows Beverley and one of D-Mo or T-Jones is in our opening day starting line-up????

    Harden an Parsons

  • rocketrick says 9 months ago Why would D12 want to come to Houston if he knows Beverley and one of D-Mo or T-Jones is in our opening day starting line-up????
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    If Morey feels the same way, I'm sure that we'll see you and other Lin detractors on this site get your wish. I have a pretty good hunch, though, that the Rockets want to give Lin another look after this off season. Especially since there really isn't anybody sitting there in the wings ready to take his spot. If this were Lowry/Brooks or Lowry/Gokie, then for sure I think Morey would try to make a move. Beverley is not close to being ready to be an everyday starting PG in the NBA. If the Rockets trot out Beverley and Motiejunas in their opening day startinglineup, I don't see much hope for 2013-14.

    I disagree on Beverly. I think he is better than Lin right now. he isn't quite as good offensively, but far superior defensively. I don't think you will see d-mo as the starter.........more likely t-jones

  • rocketrick says 9 months ago

    If Morey feels the same way, I'm sure that we'll see you and other Lin detractors on this site get your wish. I have a pretty good hunch, though, that the Rockets want to give Lin another look after this off season. Especially since there really isn't anybody sitting there in the wings ready to take his spot. If this were Lowry/Brooks or Lowry/Gokie, then for sure I think Morey would try to make a move. Beverley is not close to being ready to be an everyday starting PG in the NBA. If the Rockets trot out Beverley and Motiejunas in their opening day startinglineup, I don't see much hope for 2013-14.

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    @rocketrick

    I disagree that Lin is moveable at any point. now is probably his peak in value. the rockets would be wise to move him now. 8.3 can be better spent

  • rocketrick says 9 months ago

    I don't think anyone on this forum questions Lin's work ethic. the guy is a hard working good locker room presence. my problem with him has nothing to do with any of these areas. J-Lin has limited skills. his ceiling is not as high as I was hoping for.......I didn't expect Linsanity, but I was expecting to see far more than what I saw. I believe there is some merit to the argument that he simply is not a good fit next to Harden and would prosper better next to someone else. however Harden is here to stay. Lin either learns how to play next to him or must be dealt. second is the contract......while I won'tre-hatch that conversation, it does show me that Lin needs to be moved now before his value becomes lower. 8.3 mil is a lot to pay for the production he put out last year(and that's just the cap hit). the 5 mil next year combined with 15 mil the following year is 20 mil total for 2 years. I disagree with those who say lets see what he does, we can always move him later. we won't be able to move him in the final year of his deal becausewhile he will only be a 8.3 mil cap hit he will still make 15 mil.....any team absorbing his contract would have to foot the larger bill even though it won't show on the cap. I just don't think teams will be willing to do that.......even if we move him at the deadline any team will feel as though the cheap part of his contract has been used up and now they are getting stuck with the bill. he must be dealt this summer or sometime before training camp if we are to move him and actually get something for him. if there is no improvement in his early season playhis value will fall though the floor. even though his contract only last for2 more years why waituntil then to use that space on more productive pieces for this team?

    We've discussed the part about Lin's contract and 3rd year previously and I'm disappointed that keeps coming up. If that day was to ever come, Leslie Alexander would agree to include cash along with Jeremy Lin's remaining contract. Let's say he is traded at the Trade Deadline, February 2015 (final year of contract and most valuable time to be moved in my opinion as the receiving team will have an expiring contract), then Lin's salary for the 3rd year would have already been more than halfway paid for leaving around $6 to $6.5 million so Mr. Alexander would also agree to pay a portion of the remaining contract (perhaps another $2 or $3 million cash added to the deal).

    Saying Lin's contract isan albatross and would make him next to impossible to move is just simply ridiculous.

    For the record, I believe Lin will come back with a chip on his shoulder and with a much improved outside shot and will find a way to become a more valuable player for the Rockets this upcoming season. Too many people, in my opinion, have already given up on him. If I'm wrong, so be it, but it sure won't cause him to be untradeable in any sense of the word.

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    Setting the bar pretty high there, aren't ya? ;)

    not if you listen to some of the Lin advocates. they think he is the greatest thing since slice bread

  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    Setting the bar pretty high there, aren't ya? ;)

  • thenit says 9 months ago

    no............I wouldsettle for 45%, but I don't believe he is capable

    I'm not going to rehash the contract situation but I think we get more in year 3trade due to the expiring contract.

    But honestly ur expectations of Lin are ridiculous. Only 3 players hit the 45% mark the past season. If he can shot 37-40% that's still very good. In terms of other skills we already know our differing expectations and opinions on lins skill and that's fine.
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    So if, and only if, he shoots 78% from 3-point land, THEN you'll be impressed?

    no............I wouldsettle for 45%, but I don't believe he is capable

  • Steven says 9 months ago


    They aren't from the year. I know the gym. He's out in Palo Alto at his high school. Putting up 1000 shots really isn't that difficult with those machines. I'm sure it wasn't straight, but you can get a shot up every 10 seconds (if you are slow) on those things.


    The decade or century?
  • Ostrow says 9 months ago

    That's what he has made in the last year. It doesn't have a timer on it.

    They aren't from the year. I know the gym. He's out in Palo Alto at his high school. Putting up 1000 shots really isn't that difficult with those machines. I'm sure it wasn't straight, but you can get a shot up every 10 seconds (if you are slow) on those things.

  • manmythlegend says 9 months ago

    if he puts that up everyday then I'llbe impressed. the machine shows he hit 783 out of 999. if he couldshoot those kind ofpercentages in a game then I'll be impressed.

    So if, and only if, he shoots 78% from 3-point land, THEN you'll be impressed?

  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    yea thats a cool machine, good to see that he is already working out hard despite only being elimnated a few weeks ago added with an injury. putting up 1000 shots is tough but necessary work. I hope he comes back with a chip on his shoulder becasue he got a lot to prove.

    if he puts that up everyday then I'llbe impressed. the machine shows he hit 783 out of 999. if he couldshoot those kind ofpercentages in a game then I'll be impressed.I don't think anyone on this forum questions Lin's work ethic. the guy is a hard working good locker room presence. my problem with him has nothing to do with any of these areas. J-Lin has limited skills. his ceiling is not as high as I was hoping for.......I didn't expect Linsanity, but I was expecting to see far more than what I saw. I believe there is some merit to the argument that he simply is not a good fit next to Harden and would prosper better next to someone else. however Harden is here to stay. Lin either learns how to play next to him or must be dealt. second is the contract......while I won'tre-hatch that conversation, it does show me that Lin needs to be moved now before his value becomes lower. 8.3 mil is a lot to pay for the production he put out last year(and that's just the cap hit). the 5 mil next year combined with 15 mil the following year is 20 mil total for 2 years. I disagree with those who say lets see what he does, we can always move him later. we won't be able to move him in the final year of his deal becausewhile he will only be a 8.3 mil cap hit he will still make 15 mil.....any team absorbing his contract would have to foot the larger bill even though it won't show on the cap. I just don't think teams will be willing to do that.......even if we move him at the deadline any team will feel as though the cheap part of his contract has been used up and now they are getting stuck with the bill. he must be dealt this summer or sometime before training camp if we are to move him and actually get something for him. if there is no improvement in his early season playhis value will fall though the floor. even though his contract only last for2 more years why waituntil then to use that space on more productive pieces for this team?

  • Steven says 9 months ago That's what he has made in the last year. It doesn't have a timer on it.
  • thenit says 9 months ago

    yea thats a cool machine, good to see that he is already working out hard despite only being elimnated a few weeks ago added with an injury. putting up 1000 shots is tough but necessary work. I hope he comes back with a chip on his shoulder becasue he got a lot to prove.

  • thejohnnygold says 9 months ago

    I want one of these machines. Also, good job Jeremy.

    http://instagram.com/p/a-Pg4YuP1T/#

  • Cooper says 9 months ago We aren't over the cap and are no were near the tax penalty range. Even with Howard we are not close to it. The 8mill cap space is 8 mill cap space there isn't any 4 to 1 spending for other players or whatever.
  • rockets best fan says 9 months ago

    @quatin

    lin ain't bringing in no 50 mil. he probably ain't even bringing in 10 extra. lin doesn't have the #1 jersey. people aren't fighting over his bobblehead :lol:I agree he does have some outside income, but 50 mil......lets not blow this out of the bounds of reason. as for the point of cap vs outside income, we will always disagree on this point so there's no use in continuing to beat this dead horse

  • quatin says 9 months ago

    If this were baseball--with no salary constraints then you would be right--somewhat. However...

    In the NBA there is a salary cap and regardless of how much money your team/owner of said team makes this cap remains the same for each team. The cap allows for roughly $5M per player if distributed evenly ($58.5M/12). Since that doesn't happen, GM's must be very judicious in how they allocate the resource of cap space (which is a different resource than money). This is important. In order to give your team the best chance at winning, a GM must manage this cap space with great prejudice. While most everyone likes Jeremy Lin as a person, not everyone thinks he is the answer at PG and that his $8.3M salary (which is still an $8.3M cap hit even if he makes Les Alexander $1 billion dollars off the court.) is a squandered resource. Lin eats up 14.2% of the salary cap (as it is currently listed)...conversely, Patrick Beverley uses a paltry 1.3% of the total cap. Is Jeremy Lin 14 times better than Beverley? Probably not. Is Jeremy Lin worth 14 times more than Patrick Beverley--that is debatable.

    Team profits do not alter the salary cap--league-wide profits will raise and lower the cap. While some owners are willing to spend more and venture into the penalty, the new CBA has instituted stiff and severe penalties for teams that go above the apron. The penalties grow exponentially (if I'm not mistaken) and go from bad to worse to bankruptcy fast. Thus, even if Lin made $50M dollars on the side for Les, if his salary is causing us to go into the tax in order to stay competitive then eventually he will cost more than he brings in.

    I'm sorry, but if you refuse to prioritize the salary cap when looking at player salaries, total team salaries, and fielding a competitive, championship-caliber squad then you are turning a blind eye to the reality of the modern NBA.

    It's no longer just about what the owner can afford and is willing to spend. Beyond the tax penalties, being over the salary cap also constrains your ability to sign, trade, and manage your players--there are more available options to teams that manage their cap well--those who don't get penalized. (I don't have specifics on this so if anyone wants to add them feel free or just go to CBAFAQ.com)


    +1 on what 2016 said. You can't compare 2nd round draft picks to FA signings. 2nd round draft picks tend to be busts more often than not, so you have to low ball their salaries hoping to get enough value out of one to cover all the money you spend on the other failures. What's a more fair comparison is comparing two starting PGs. Hence my post about Dragic and Lin.

    I'm not ignoring the cap space, but I'm also not going to ignore the team income. You can prioritize one over the other, but I still think it has to be a balance of the two. Given the evidence that 27 out of 30 teams are over the cap space and I think half of them are in the upper brackets of being over the cap space, I think it's fair to say that the cap is not a "must stop" number.

    I agree that at the highest levels of the tax penalty, no one is worth their salary. However, we are not over the cap. We are not subjugated to the repeat offender penalty even if we do go over the cap. Going into next year, we would only pay 1.25/1.75x to 1 for being over. So in this specific instance for the Rockets going into 2014, I allude to my Dragic and Lin comparison. The comment that "we could spend $8million" better is flawed logic in this instance. If we had to pay 4x to 1, then $8million can be over shadowed by the tax penalty, but we are won't be in that tax bracket.

    PS. If Lin did bring in $50 million, then he will never cost the team at his current salary, even at the most extreme penalty of the being over the cap. I did the math earlier in this thread.
  • BenQueens says 10 months ago

    How is Lin a free player? Besides jerseys sold in Compact, all the other money is split amongst the teams. He didn't help the Rockets get their cable deal done like he did with NY. He didn't help them reach the second round allowing Les to sell more tickets at the playoff inflated prices. And the $8M could have been spent better, Goran Dorgic.

    Gogi? If Lin's 3 years at $8M and change aren't worth it, but Dragic's 4 years at $7.5M are... I don't know, we're slicing things pretty thin. Their production is extremely similar. Don't get me wrong, I loved Dragic- but I also think Lin is producing at more-or-less his salary-cap hit. It seems like wanting to trade Lin for salary reasons means you want that level of production at more that a $700k annual discount. If you're like SS, and think we can get that level out of Beverley for a *lot* less money, that's one thing... but Gogi wasn't coming cheap (of course, I think we would have re-signed him if the Harden deal had been done first, but that's another story).
  • Steven says 10 months ago


    The way people compare other contracts to 2nd round draft pick contracts seems like flawed logic to me. By that standard we should just trade all our starters for a 2nd round draft pick...


    Just Lin and White
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    The way people compare other contracts to 2nd round draft pick contracts seems like flawed logic to me. By that standard we should just trade all our starters for a 2nd round draft pick...

    if this is a reference to Beverly and lin .....then yes we should trade our starter and let the backup play :lol:not so much at the other positions

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    The way people compare other contracts to 2nd round draft pick contracts seems like flawed logic to me. By that standard we should just trade all our starters for a 2nd round draft pick...

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    You're being difficult or just have blinders on that all you focus on is $8million and cap space. It doesn't matter how many times I re-iterate why that is not the case all you say is, "no/I don't believe it" without offering any substantial proof otherwise. Whether you take the high or low estimate, Lin is still an essentially free player. You can't dictate out, "we can spend $8 million better elsewhere", because that's not the whole truth.

    If this were baseball--with no salary constraints then you would be right--somewhat. However...

    In the NBA there is a salary cap and regardless of how much money your team/owner of said team makes this cap remains the same for each team. The cap allows for roughly $5M per player if distributed evenly ($58.5M/12). Since that doesn't happen, GM's must be very judicious in how they allocate the resource of cap space (which is a different resource than money). This is important. In order to give your team the best chance at winning, a GM must manage this cap space with great prejudice. While most everyone likes Jeremy Lin as a person, not everyone thinks he is the answer at PG and that his $8.3M salary (which is still an $8.3M cap hit even if he makes Les Alexander $1 billion dollars off the court.) is a squandered resource. Lin eats up 14.2% of the salary cap (as it is currently listed)...conversely, Patrick Beverley uses a paltry 1.3% of the total cap. Is Jeremy Lin 14 times better than Beverley? Probably not. Is Jeremy Lin worth 14 times more than Patrick Beverley--that is debatable.

    Team profits do not alter the salary cap--league-wide profits will raise and lower the cap. While some owners are willing to spend more and venture into the penalty, the new CBA has instituted stiff and severe penalties for teams that go above the apron. The penalties grow exponentially (if I'm not mistaken) and go from bad to worse to bankruptcy fast. Thus, even if Lin made $50M dollars on the side for Les, if his salary is causing us to go into the tax in order to stay competitive then eventually he will cost more than he brings in.

    I'm sorry, but if you refuse to prioritize the salary cap when looking at player salaries, total team salaries, and fielding a competitive, championship-caliber squad then you are turning a blind eye to the reality of the modern NBA.

    It's no longer just about what the owner can afford and is willing to spend. Beyond the tax penalties, being over the salary cap also constrains your ability to sign, trade, and manage your players--there are more available options to teams that manage their cap well--those who don't get penalized. (I don't have specifics on this so if anyone wants to add them feel free or just go to CBAFAQ.com)

  • Steven says 10 months ago


    You're being difficult or just have blinders on that all you focus on is $8million and cap space. It doesn't matter how many times I re-iterate why that is not the case all you say is, "no/I don't believe it" without offering any substantial proof otherwise. Whether you take the high or low estimate, Lin is still an essentially free player. You can't dictate out, "we can spend $8 million better elsewhere", because that's not the whole truth.


    How is Lin a free player? Besides jerseys sold in Compact, all the other money is split amongst the teams. He didn't help the Rockets get their cable deal done like he did with NY. He didn't help them reach the second round allowing Les to sell more tickets at the playoff inflated prices. And the $8M could have been spent better, Goran Dorgic.
  • quatin says 10 months ago

    REALLY? difficult just for the sake of being difficult? it could be that or it could be that even after repeating my point a thousand times you still have not absorbed my point.

    You're being difficult or just have blinders on that all you focus on is $8million and cap space. It doesn't matter how many times I re-iterate why that is not the case all you say is, "no/I don't believe it" without offering any substantial proof otherwise. Whether you take the high or low estimate, Lin is still an essentially free player. You can't dictate out, "we can spend $8 million better elsewhere", because that's not the whole truth.

  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago I am pretty sure Beverley would have no problem setting picks on shooting guards, call me crazy.

    Moving Lin is not really about Lin, it's about his contract. Lin is fine, he will be a solid NBA player. He is just the odd man out. It's that simple.
  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago

    I agree Beverley would not rack up assists as a starting point guard for the Rockets but can he do other things that lead to points, yes. He will probably keep the ball moving as well as push the ball up court both of which lead to baskets. Beverley might force turnovers that lead to fast breaks as well. Also Beverley could be used to set picks that will be effective, he is not afraid of that kind of contact. Most importantly for the right price Beverley keeps the seat warm for the point guard of the future, he doesn't seem like the kind of guy that will be effected or cause an uproar when he is supplanted in the starting lineup.

    I don't see Beverley (listed at a generous 180#) setting many effective picks. In general I don't think you want the smallest guy on the floor setting picks often, unless you want him on the DL.

    This excerpt was from an ESPN.com article last year which went over the entire Lin-Knicks-Rockets saga in great detail:http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8179196/nba-jeremy-lin-six-degrees-separation-houston-rockets

    "We think he's a very good player [and> still surprisingly underrated," Rockets general manager Daryl Morey told TrueHoop TV on Wednesday. "I think there's a feeling that he was a flash in the pan. Obviously we don't agree. I think it's fair to say that it would be hard for anyone to sustain what he did, but he really doesn't have to. He just needs to be the quality player we think he is. I think his intelligence, his work ethic, his character and his underrated athleticism give him a real shot to be a very good player going forward.

    "To expect him to sustain what he did, especially that one run, would be unfair to anyone to expect that," Morey continued. "Few have ever attained that level. We don't need that. What we need is a quality point guard that we feel what we're getting. We feel he's a guy we can build around with our other young players that have been playing well and we're excited about. We like the future."

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I think RBF is being difficult just for the sake of being difficult. There's no way he doesn't understand the correlation between the cap and team profitability.

    If we acquire Howard outright and not give up anyone to stay in the cap, we would have to pay Lin $8-$14 million (assuming he makes up his own salary). If we trade out Lin for Dragic, we would have to pay Dragic the equivalent of $22 million. You can't tell me, the Rockets wouldn't be better off with an average PG and $8-$14 million to fill in the other holes as opposed to acquiring an above average PG.

    REALLY? difficult just for the sake of being difficult? it could be that or it could be that even after repeating my point a thousand times you still have not absorbed my point.

  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago I agree Beverley would not rack up assists as a starting point guard for the Rockets but can he do other things that lead to points, yes. He will probably keep the ball moving as well as push the ball up court both of which lead to baskets. Beverley might force turnovers that lead to fast breaks as well. Also Beverley could be used to set picks that will be effective, he is not afraid of that kind of contact. Most importantly for the right price Beverley keeps the seat warm for the point guard of the future, he doesn't seem like the kind of guy that will be effected or cause an uproar when he is supplanted in the starting lineup.
  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    So, are Lin and Dragic both playing for the Rockets in this scenario? You lost me somewhere.

  • quatin says 10 months ago

    Yes, what FSS said and then this question: where are those numbers from? $8-$14M? $22M?

    I will say that in our situation James Harden as a combo guard (who plays pg a lot in our system) and Beverley could platoon that position effectively for us--the $8-$14M (not sure about these numbers) could then be spent on solid back-ups/role players/ paul millsap/OJ Mayo/nice track suits--whatever you want. It's not my preference, but I would understand why the Rockets did it and I think we would be ok.

    I assumed Dragic and Lin to make the same salary to make the math easier, so I gave a range. If we are $8 million over cap, it's $8million x1.75 = $14 million. Assuming Lin pays his own salary, we pay only taxes. Dragic is making $8 million so add that to the $14 million tax to make $22 million.

    I don't agree with Harden playing combo guard as a game plan, I figured we just defaulted to that when we're in panic mode. A summer of training together should get some team chemistry and game plans to avoid that in the future.

    If you think long term Harden should be playing combo guard then I can see how moving Lin would make sense, since I don't see Beverly being much more than a back up PG.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    Beverley is a nice player. But he's still an unknown commodity, and he is an undersized combo guard who's strongest suits are energy, offensive rebounding and pesky defense. I've made this point before that in the last two playoff games against OKC, Beverley took 22 shots while dishing out 1 assist. I'm not sure that's what you want out of your point guard, even if he will share responsibilities with Harden.

    I agree with this sentiment. I think he can do ok. I've tried to find his euro stats (unsuccessfully) to see how he fared over there. I think the advantage comes if we can bring in another strong combo guard to play alongside them and let Beverley spend time beside each one as the other gets rest. Bev will assume the role of perimeter defender/spot up shooter (which he seems to do well).

  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago

    Yes, what FSS said and then this question: where are those numbers from? $8-$14M? $22M?

    I will say that in our situation James Harden as a combo guard (who plays pg a lot in our system) and Beverley could platoon that position effectively for us--the $8-$14M (not sure about these numbers) could then be spent on solid back-ups/role players/ paul millsap/OJ Mayo/nice track suits--whatever you want. It's not my preference, but I would understand why the Rockets did it and I think we would be ok.

    Beverley is a nice player. But he's still an unknown commodity, and he is an undersized combo guard who's strongest suits are energy, offensive rebounding and pesky defense. I've made this point before that in the last two playoff games against OKC, Beverley took 22 shots while dishing out 1 assist. I'm not sure that's what you want out of your point guard, even if he will share responsibilities with Harden.

  • quatin says 10 months ago

    The idea is that the Rockets would be fine with Beverley as the starter and moving Lin and his contract.

    But what would you do with the money left over for Lin's contract? if we trade Lin out and acquired Howard, we would have Howard, Jones, Harden, Beverly and Parsons. I see Beverly as a downgrade, so our most glaring holes is now PF and PG. If we can fit the likes of Josh Smith or Chris Paul, then by all means, move Lin. However, my point is it makes no sense to move him unless it is for great talent.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    I think RBF is being difficult just for the sake of being difficult. There's no way he doesn't understand the correlation between the cap and team profitability.

    If we acquire Howard outright and not give up anyone to stay in the cap, we would have to pay Lin $8-$14 million (assuming he makes up his own salary). If we trade out Lin for Dragic, we would have to pay Dragic the equivalent of $22 million. You can't tell me, the Rockets wouldn't be better off with an average PG and $8-$14 million to fill in the other holes as opposed to acquiring an above average PG.

    Yes, what FSS said and then this question: where are those numbers from? $8-$14M? $22M?

    I will say that in our situation James Harden as a combo guard (who plays pg a lot in our system) and Beverley could platoon that position effectively for us--the $8-$14M (not sure about these numbers) could then be spent on solid back-ups/role players/ paul millsap/OJ Mayo/nice track suits--whatever you want. It's not my preference, but I would understand why the Rockets did it and I think we would be ok.

  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago

    I think RBF is being difficult just for the sake of being difficult. There's no way he doesn't understand the correlation between the cap and team profitability.

    If we acquire Howard outright and not give up anyone to stay in the cap, we would have to pay Lin $8-$14 million (assuming he makes up his own salary). If we trade out Lin for Dragic, we would have to pay Dragic the equivalent of $22 million. You can't tell me, the Rockets wouldn't be better off with an average PG and $8-$14 million to fill in the other holes as opposed to acquiring an above average PG.

    The idea is that the Rockets would be fine with Beverley as the starter and moving Lin and his contract.
  • quatin says 10 months ago

    You guys are debating profitability vs. cap management. I would suggest getting on the same page or letting it go; otherwise, this will never get resolved. Yes, Lin's marketability helps the bottom line for Alexander (how much we don't know, but we can all agree it is some); however, his $8.3M salary counts against the cap the same and that is relevant when trying to build the best possible team. Bearing in mind that RBF doesn't fancy Lin as a very good PG it makes sense that he views that $8.3M salary as a waste of valuable cap space. While an owner may be willing to venture into the luxury tax if it looks like a championship is possible, the penalties are incredibly steep and, as businessmen, they didn't get to the point where they could buy an NBA franchise by throwing money away just because they can. The tax matters--no matter how much money Lin makes.

    I think RBF is being difficult just for the sake of being difficult. There's no way he doesn't understand the correlation between the cap and team profitability.

    If we acquire Howard outright and not give up anyone to stay in the cap, we would have to pay Lin $8-$14 million (assuming he makes up his own salary). If we trade out Lin for Dragic, we would have to pay Dragic the equivalent of $22 million. You can't tell me, the Rockets wouldn't be better off with an average PG and $8-$14 million to fill in the other holes as opposed to acquiring an above average PG.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P5ThOzelPw

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iF69Khfg0q8

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    No problem--maybe I should freelance as a mediator :lol:

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    You guys are debating profitability vs. cap management. I would suggest getting on the same page or letting it go; otherwise, this will never get resolved. Yes, Lin's marketability helps the bottom line for Alexander (how much we don't know, but we can all agree it is some); however, his $8.3M salary counts against the cap the same and that is relevant when trying to build the best possible team. Bearing in mind that RBF doesn't fancy Lin as a very good PG it makes sense that he views that $8.3M salary as a waste of valuable cap space. While an owner may be willing to venture into the luxury tax if it looks like a championship is possible, the penalties are incredibly steep and, as businessmen, they didn't get to the point where they could buy an NBA franchise by throwing money away just because they can. The tax matters--no matter how much money Lin makes.

    that's the point I have been trying to make all along.......thanks JG. I know you feel differently about lin, but at least you get my point

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    You guys are debating profitability vs. cap management. I would suggest getting on the same page or letting it go; otherwise, this will never get resolved. Yes, Lin's marketability helps the bottom line for Alexander (how much we don't know, but we can all agree it is some); however, his $8.3M salary counts against the cap the same and that is relevant when trying to build the best possible team. Bearing in mind that RBF doesn't fancy Lin as a very good PG it makes sense that he views that $8.3M salary as a waste of valuable cap space. While an owner may be willing to venture into the luxury tax if it looks like a championship is possible, the penalties are incredibly steep and, as businessmen, they didn't get to the point where they could buy an NBA franchise by throwing money away just because they can. The tax matters--no matter how much money Lin makes.

  • quatin says 10 months ago

    i'm talking about the cap because that is the number that effects our ability to bring in other players to help this team.we don't pay a penalty for being over the cap......we pay a penalty for being over the tax threshold. we can be above the cap and below the tax threshold and won't have to pay a dime in penalty. I disagree that the net income of the team will determine team salary. the salary cap and tax threshold will determine team salary.

    I don't know if you think money grows on tress, but net income determines what the team salary is. Why does the Lakers have $100 million in salaries then? They're over the cap and a repeat offender.The cap is at $58 million and only 3 teams are under the cap. Explain that with your logic of "salary cap and tax threshold".

    The real reason is, how much a team makes determines how much money they can pay to players. Large market ball clubs like the Lakers can afford to pay more salary and tax money, because they have a higher income.

    Here is a link to the post (earlier in this thread) It has a link to the Forbes article as well.



    Also, this link is informative.

    I can agree with you that all the numbers are just speculation. The real numbers might be vastly different. Even if we come down to your number of Lin paying his own salary, that still makes him a free player. We're not facing a huge tax bill, even if we acquire Howard, it would take a couple of years before we get hit with something large. Lin's play right now is just average, but he's not costing us games. Unless the likes of CP3 comes along, it wouldn't make sense to trade him, especially since we have glaring holes elsewhere.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    As one of the articles I posted mentioned, Les started a separate entity--Rocket Capital. By keeping that away from the Rockets' organization any profits are kept away from the prying eyes of David Stern--Les is no dummy. If there is big money, it's there. So, while Les may or may not benefit from Lin's marketability the Rockets themselves do not. I just checked and it does not seem to be a publicly traded company--so no financials available. Just did a little more research...Alexander has partnered with Red McCombs (Mega Car Salesman) and is making huge in-roads in China since 2008 with cars. I'm sure Lin's face is on stuff over there, but so is Harden's...and probably Parsons...actually, since Lin is signed for two years with Volvo he probably has a no compete clause (at least regarding cars) which means he wouldn't be any part of that branch of Rockets Capital....

    032012aisatodayjlin_512x288.jpg

    Once again, I'm not saying he isn't making an impact, but read these articles carefully--they are using bloated figures to sensationalize the truth.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    It's all just speculation, no one knows the real numbers except for Leslie Alexander and some of the people he employs.

    true no one knows the real numbers, but I bet they aren't as huge as some seem to think

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    It's all just speculation, no one knows the real numbers except for Leslie Alexander and some of the people he employs.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    @ the johnnygold

    I totally agree Lin's off court value is being blown way out of context. it's not like when Yao was here. Lin does have some following in china, but Yao was a national hero.......big difference. I bet every kid as a Yao jersey....not so much Lin. also like you pointed out this is considered league profits and must be split with other teams. however getting that idea through to some of the Lin advocates is near impossible.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    Just for good measure, here is a grantland piece that once again supports the notion that Lin's value is inflated.

    I could just as easily argue that Chandler Parsons' steely-blue eyes made the Rocket's $30M last season. Clearly female viewership was up. This resulted in more women joining their hubbies at the game. Further, female television viewership went up resulting in new advertising and sponsorship opportunities to the elusive female 25-45 age demographic--a very lucrative demographic. Further, his in-roads to the SEC (from playing at Florida)--where there is little competition for basketball fans (Atlanta, Orlando, and Miami--none of which are worth rooting for)--means the feel-good Houston Rockets with pretty-boy-hometown-hero Chandler Parsons will expand the Rockets' overall market value into the Southeastern US. Parsons' decision to switch to high-powered-super-agent Dan Fegan reflects this new-found marketability.....

    I could go on, but this is exactly what the Lin articles are. Contrived speculation and overall junk. I may be a layman, but as a life-long business man/salesman I'm an expert at identifying BS. BS identified.

    If Jeremy Lin truly was a "golden goose" then every small-market team would be lining up to get him on the roster. The bottom line is Jeremy Lin will make more money for himself in marketing (through endorsements) than the Rockets will overall. For evidence of this, look no further than Jeremy's own mouth.

  • Steven says 10 months ago


    I don't disagree with anything you said, but I think you're downplaying the fact Lin has widened the door Yao once opened. Or perhaps I should say that door was already open, then Yao came and widened it, then Lin came and took the thing off its hinges. The Rockets and Harden are benefiting from how wide that door has opened.

    All Money made in China is split between all 30 teams. The only money the Rockets get to keep to themselves are sponsorships in the arena and such. There is no greater benefit for the Rockets today, inspite of the fact that Yao Ming only wore the Rockets version of the Chinese National team jersey. All players have benefited from the fact Yao Ming played in the NBA. It opened the door to China, bringing in much needed revenues.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I don't disagree with anything you said, but I think you're downplaying the fact Lin has widened the door Yao once opened. Or perhaps I should say that door was already open, then Yao came and widened it, then Lin came and took the thing off its hinges. The Rockets and Harden are benefiting from how wide that door has opened.

    widened the door? :blink:you're kidding right? :huh:off it's hinges? :wacko:for once I'm speechless :mellow:

  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago Lin is barely peaking through the door. As he slides into the middle of NBA players he will lose value in the marketing world. He had an amazing 15 minutes, good for him.
  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Downplay it all you want. Everyone has a right to an opinion.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    I don't disagree with anything you said, but I think you're downplaying the fact Lin has widened the door Yao once opened. Or perhaps I should say that door was already open, then Yao came and widened it, then Lin came and took the thing off its hinges. The Rockets and Harden are benefiting from how wide that door has opened.

    "...off its hinges..."? Where is the evidence of that? Yao opened it and it has remained open. This point was discussed before we got Jeremy Lin in reference to Dwight Howard and his ability to expand his "brand" to China playing in Houston.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I don't disagree with anything you said, but I think you're downplaying the fact Lin has widened the door Yao once opened. Or perhaps I should say that door was already open, then Yao came and widened it, then Lin came and took the thing off its hinges. The Rockets and Harden are benefiting from how wide that door has opened.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    Perhaps this will help shed some light since my words garnered no respect:

    "That marketing value of Lin, however, is not as clear-cut. The Atlantic, in a caution to both the Knicks and Rockets, noted that the Rockets'
    last Asian star, Yao Ming, only improved his team's net worth in the short-term. And Bloomberg Businessweek reported that due to league revenue-sharing, Lin's boost from merchandise sales likely benefited the Knicks less than his role as an impetus for Time Warner Cable (TWC) to back down in its dispute over rights to air the team's games did.

    So did the Knicks really just lose a marketing golden goose? Sports marketing experts say not really.Given that the NBA pools most merchandising and national television revenues, no one player has the impact one might think.

    "In fact, the trend in modern sports is to guard against these small, uncontrolled and unpredictable shifts," explains Bob Boland, sports
    management chair at New York University, in an email. Critical revenue streams for teams come from multi-year deals that move more slowly, such as through in-stadia advertising or media rights. That trend insulates the Knicks from fallout -- with the possible exception of fan outrage.

    Houston, however, has a more immediate marketing upside in acquiring Lin. As with the Knicks, the team won't directly benefit as Lin draws
    larger away crowds to games or sells jerseys to fans worldwide. But he could provide a greater boost for in-stadium sales and attendance in his
    new home arena, as the Rockets had one of the worst attendance rates in the league last season."

    Here's the LINK. Again, this was written before Harden was traded. While I agree that Lin puts some butts in the seats--Harden does too and I would say more than Lin.

    One must also consider that most of those "profits" in NY were gains made by the MSG stock and were a spike associated with the newness of the Linsanity craze. That was inevitably going to dip back down. Since the Rockets don't even have that to worry about let's move on to Lin's play and relevance. Lin didn't maintain his high level of play and fell back to the middle of the pack. As an average NBA player he is not nearly as marketable. There just isn't anything but wild, and often erroneous, speculation about this $50M dollars he is lining Alexander's pockets with.

    Like I originally said a while back--I'm sure he is making some money for Les, but it is not enough to justify a $25-$35M luxury tax as a non-issue as was originally put forth.

    On a personal note--this should not matter. Winning is the financial panacea. Lin's presence on the team should be looked at in these terms and these terms alone.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Aren't you a layman too?

    not all layman are incompetent.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Aren't you a layman too?

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago


    Posted Today, 01:01 PM




    Quote

    1.
    If Linasanity can improve occupation rate from current 85% to 90%, that
    is about $58,000 extra per game, or $5 million extra in regular season
    (assume average $65/ticket).


    2.
    Knicks boosted by 70% last season due to Linasanity. Let us assume
    thatRockets only boost ticket price by 20% next season. That is $20.1
    million for regular season.


    3. If Rockets enter playoff, that 5 minimum game income is extra $10 million.


    4. Courtside ad: 1.2 million.


    5.Broadcast income unkown.


    6. Jercy and other item sales, neglected.


    So Linsanity's contribution to Rockets bottom line is some where from $20 million to $36 million.



    For all I know, a mere layman wrote that, but it sounds accurate to me.







    Edited by 2016Champions, Today, 01:03 PM.

    --> I just found where you got this from...it was posted in the comments section after the actual article by a Lin fanatic named Wally. Seriously? Does this have one ounce of credibility? It was written in July of 2012 before Harden was traded. He made up those numbers. He's a layman :o not an expert, but if you want to believe him you go right ahead. Wow.


  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Meh, I'm buying it.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    OK, so this is how this works.

    Occupancy is dependent on tons of factors and winning and James Harden are bigger factors than Lin regarding occupancy--there are no actual numbers reflecting Jeremy Lin's increase in ticket sales--only speculation.

    A boost in ticket price? See above. Ticket prices regularly increase regardless. How much of that alleged $20.1M can we really say Lin would account for? Very little.

    I would venture to say that most people here attribute our playoff berth more to Harden and Asik then Lin...so that doesn't count.

    The other link I posted above has actual numbers for the courtside ads--according to their numbers Lin's asssumed influence on that is described here:

    "Estimates from sponsorship experts IEG are that the Rockets earned
    somewhere between $800,000 to $1.25 million in deals from all their
    China-related sponsorships. That’s not negligible, as it’s about 5%-10%
    of the average NBA team’s annual sponsorship income, but it’s less than a
    percentage point of the Rockets’ estimated $150 million a year revenue.
    IEG said that the Rockets’ overall sponsorship revenue wasn’t notably
    higher than other NBA teams during Yao’s time with the team.

    Jersey sales are split evenly amongst all the teams by the league--no advantage there and no direct income.
    This is not to say that the Rockets can't and won't parlay Lin's face into money (the article goes on to discuss Alexander's Rocket Capital venture), but it is indirect and has little to do with the above. The Forbes article is a good example of "sensationalism" in journalism. They write the eye-catching title, fill the article with a few facts and a lot of speculation, and draw conclusions based off of this. Ultimately, it's just not very accurate or useful.
    Further, just because 5-10% of sponsorships come from China (and are therefore attributed to Lin even if they were in place before he got here) does not mean those spots would not have been sold to someone else had the Chinese not purchased them. It presupposes something it cannot know.
    People can claim Lin is a money machine all they want--I'm not buying it. He makes some, but let's keep the numbers reasonable instead of trying to give Lin credit for everything.
  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    1. If Linasanity can improve occupation rate from current 85% to 90%, that is about $58,000 extra per game, or $5 million extra in regular season (assume average $65/ticket).

    2. Knicks boosted by 70% last season due to Linasanity. Let us assume thatRockets only boost ticket price by 20% next season. That is $20.1 million for regular season.

    3. If Rockets enter playoff, that 5 minimum game income is extra $10 million.

    4. Courtside ad: 1.2 million.

    5.Broadcast income unkown.

    6. Jercy and other item sales, neglected.

    So Linsanity's contribution to Rockets bottom line is some where from $20 million to $36 million.

    For all I know, a mere layman wrote that, but it sounds accurate to me.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    Can you link me to your dissection? I'm curious to see it. The article only mentioned endorsements, merchandise sales and TV contracts. I didn't see the MSG stock analysis. NY might have a bigger market that's publicly traded, but Houston also has it's upsides. We have a streamlined path to marketing in China due to Yao.


    The entire reason of staying under the salary cap is to not pay tax penalties. That's why I'm talking about the penalty tax. Why are you talking about the cap? I'm baffled to think that you don't understand the reason of why a team wants to stay under the cap, when you keep bringing it up. It matters entirely what Lin brings in, because the net income of the franchise will determine team salary. The only reason any team cares about the cap is to avoid tax penalties.

    Here is a link to the post (earlier in this thread) It has a link to the Forbes article as well.

    Also, this link is informative.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Can you link me to your dissection? I'm curious to see it. The article only mentioned endorsements, merchandise sales and TV contracts. I didn't see the MSG stock analysis. NY might have a bigger market that's publicly traded, but Houston also has it's upsides. We have a streamlined path to marketing in China due to Yao.


    The entire reason of staying under the salary cap is to not pay tax penalties. That's why I'm talking about the penalty tax. Why are you talking about the cap? I'm baffled to think that you don't understand the reason of why a team wants to stay under the cap, when you keep bringing it up. It matters entirely what Lin brings in, because the net income of the franchise will determine team salary. The only reason any team cares about the cap is to avoid tax penalties.

    i'm talking about the cap because that is the number that effects our ability to bring in other players to help this team.we don't pay a penalty for being over the cap......we pay a penalty for being over the tax threshold. we can be above the cap and below the tax threshold and won't have to pay a dime in penalty. I disagree that the net income of the team will determine team salary. the salary cap and tax threshold will determine team salary.

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    In regard to the revolving door, it seems like Morey himself is trigger happy..... It also is the reason why I don't want McHale gone outright, because it seems like he has to constantly spend time getting new players familiar with the system..... It could be why the system appeared broken.... Maybe McHale with another season with these core players will surprise us.

    I think the Rockets should focus on building on the Harden/Asik/Parsons foundation, acquiring role players who can do the dirty work, wing defense, rebounding, energy off the bench, etc. ... I think going after another superstar player might disrupt the chemistry, especially if it's Howard.... Remember, just about all Laker fans and pundits were jubilant after acquiring Howard (and Steve Nash), proclaiming their team to be the one who will dethrone the Miami Heat..... Yet the team sputtered, a coach was replaced, and it took some insane play down the stretch by Kobe to avoid the Lottery.... (But Kobe ultimatly got hurt.... He really overextended himself, and it cost him and the team. And Nash was incompatible on the Lakers like Lin with the Rox.) Howard is a bust that Laker fans now want out of town even worse than Rox fans with Lin....

    And in the case of CP3, we might create friction regarding who finishes off games, since both Harden and Paul are ball dominant in those situations. This team could ultimately end up like the Knicks: Too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

    The Rox problem is not the inability to acquire stars... Morey is expert at that. The Rox problem is the inability to acquire role players to complement these stars. And fit the McHale system.

    Nice post except for the part that Morey can't seem to find those elusive role players. Personally, I think Morey has far exceeded my expectations in that regard.

    However, it takes more than role players to win the NBA Finals.

    Although I'm not totally in agreement that D12 is the missing piece, I'm willing to throw my chips on the table and whatever happens, happens in regards to D12 in a Rockets uniform.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    @Hockey the Harden Way

    totally disagree.............totally :lol:a second star is exactly what this team needs. we have plenty of players who can fill roles.....we need the 2nd stud to pull the wagon. sounds like you're a little upset with Morey.........disagree there too. the man is one of the top GMs in the league. we are in the position we are because Morey foresaw how the rules of the new CBA would affect the league and positioned us to be able to take advantage of it. I call that being on top of your job. if the rockets get a chance to sign D-12 they have to take advantage of that. championship contenders are not built without risk. change is the name of the game until we acquire the final foundation star. Morey hasguided us this far.......I trust him to navigate the remaining course.

  • Hockey the Harden Way says 10 months ago

    I would bet that hearing Rockets fans discuss Lin's ancillary revenue probably drives Leslie Alexander crazy! I've always let it go, but thought if worthwhile to at least state my position.

    I believe that Leslie Alexander's and Daryl Morey's number one goal and number one priority is to win NBA titles. I mean, how many more press conferences and interviews do both have to have stating their goals over and over and over again before some of that sinks through to the fanbase? Or perhaps a certain portion of the fanbase either doesn't listen or just mistakes someone else's (other fans) statements as fact.

    Whether a player does or does not provide ancillary income is beside the point. Other than it helps cushion some of the luxury taxes I have no doubt Leslie Alexander will be willing to absorb sometime down the road.

    It sounds like a portion of the Rockets fanbase don't mind a continuous revolving door when it comes to the players on the roster.

    Please list any and all NBA franchises ever in history who continuously had a revolving door policy when it comes to key rotation players and was able to win championships? I know the answer, a big fat 0.

    In regard to the revolving door, it seems like Morey himself is trigger happy..... It also is the reason why I don't want McHale gone outright, because it seems like he has to constantly spend time getting new players familiar with the system..... It could be why the system appeared broken.... Maybe McHale with another season with these core players will surprise us.

    I think the Rockets should focus on building on the Harden/Asik/Parsons foundation, acquiring role players who can do the dirty work, wing defense, rebounding, energy off the bench, etc. ... I think going after another superstar player might disrupt the chemistry, especially if it's Howard.... Remember, just about all Laker fans and pundits were jubilant after acquiring Howard (and Steve Nash), proclaiming their team to be the one who will dethrone the Miami Heat..... Yet the team sputtered, a coach was replaced, and it took some insane play down the stretch by Kobe to avoid the Lottery.... (But Kobe ultimatly got hurt.... He really overextended himself, and it cost him and the team. And Nash was incompatible on the Lakers like Lin with the Rox.) Howard is a bust that Laker fans now want out of town even worse than Rox fans with Lin....

    And in the case of CP3, we might create friction regarding who finishes off games, since both Harden and Paul are ball dominant in those situations. This team could ultimately end up like the Knicks: Too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

    The Rox problem is not the inability to acquire stars... Morey is expert at that. The Rox problem is the inability to acquire role players to complement these stars. And fit the McHale system. (I think the "layups and threes" strategy really complicates matters. I'm kind of miffed that Morey went after an incompatible player like Lin in the first place. Thomas Robinson is another such player. Morey seems somewhat oblivious in regard to finding role players that best fit the team's system.) If we continue this "stars first" approach, some of them will end up short-changed in favor of other stars, and we'll have a "Kyle Lowry situation" all over again.

    We need to sustain the current nucleus, and acquire role players who could truly better this team. And more importantly, stop the revolving door you were alluding to.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Since when does Carmelo Anthony know how to share the basketball? The main reason, in my opinion, he will never win a ring (unless and until he pulls a Tracy McGrady, which is still to be determined).

    Carmelo is a ball hog.....no argument there. this has nothing to do with my point. Lin doesn't play well when he can't control the ball simple as that

  • quatin says 10 months ago

    I took the time when this was first posted to go through, read the article, and successfully refute the majority of it as inflated numbers for the sake of journalism. That article started at $150M (potentially) and went on to dissect it into it's parts--both real and speculated--that ultimately ended with a big ? for the Rockets as their organization is set up differently than the Knicks. Basically, all Lin brings directly to the table is potential in-arena advertising and private television contracts (CSN :angry: )--this is probably the main reason why the deal never got done.

    Bottom line, the shift financially for the Rockets is minimal and largely negligible in the grand scheme of things. Lin might cover his own salary, but that's about it. He's not bringing in $50M just because he's on the roster--that fallacy is due to the MSG stock receiving a boon from Lin...the Toyota center will receive no such effect as they are not publicly traded.

    Sorry to rain on your parade--I wanted it to be true--but it's just not. :(

    Can you link me to your dissection? I'm curious to see it. The article only mentioned endorsements, merchandise sales and TV contracts. I didn't see the MSG stock analysis. NY might have a bigger market that's publicly traded, but Houston also has it's upsides. We have a streamlined path to marketing in China due to Yao.


    why are you discussing tax penalties for Lin's salary? Lin isn't
    sending the rockets into tax territory. I guess what you are referring
    to would be his impact on the cap. Lin is a 8.3 mil cap hit in each
    ofthe next 2 years....not 8mil. it doesn't matter how much extra income
    he brings in it won't reduce that cap hit. that's what the rockets must
    work with



    as for projecting players..........any of it is speculation until the
    games are played, but that's what forums are for to discuss opinions
    and speculation about your favorite team. what's asinine about that?
    asinine seems to be the word for the day. anyone who can't support their
    side of the debate seems to want to call the others asinine. before you
    throw words around use more thought. I'm sure you can do better like a
    few facts to support your side instead of trying to degrade others for
    not sharing your views

    The entire reason of staying under the salary cap is to not pay tax penalties. That's why I'm talking about the penalty tax. Why are you talking about the cap? I'm baffled to think that you don't understand the reason of why a team wants to stay under the cap, when you keep bringing it up. It matters entirely what Lin brings in, because the net income of the franchise will determine team salary. The only reason any team cares about the cap is to avoid tax penalties.

  • Cooper says 10 months ago You could say the heat do as well.
  • Cooper says 10 months ago The spurs win with different role players.
  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    lin does not play well when he has to share the basketball....no doubt about that

    Since when does Carmelo Anthony know how to share the basketball? The main reason, in my opinion, he will never win a ring (unless and until he pulls a Tracy McGrady, which is still to be determined).
  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    I think the fans are more polarizing than the player himself...... (I'm talking about LOFs and LOHs..... ) I do think there is a lot of resentment regarding Lin getting a so much attention for how much he has achieved. I won't go any further.

    I love Lin the person..... I'm still undecided on Lin the player, only because he seemed a lot more effective with the Knicks than with the Rockets. I do think Lin's problem with the Rockets is that his skill set and the Rockets current offensive system are not compatible.

    I also think there is this strange friction in this particular organization between Lin bringing in $$$ for non-performance reasons and Lin's fundamental incompatibility with the Rockets' offensive system. It's a predicament which will go down to whether Lin's ancillary revenue draw or becoming a title contender is more important for the Rockets organization.

    I would bet that hearing Rockets fans discuss Lin's ancillary revenue probably drives Leslie Alexander crazy! I've always let it go, but thought if worthwhile to at least state my position.

    I believe that Leslie Alexander's and Daryl Morey's number one goal and number one priority is to win NBA titles. I mean, how many more press conferences and interviews do both have to have stating their goals over and over and over again before some of that sinks through to the fanbase? Or perhaps a certain portion of the fanbase either doesn't listen or just mistakes someone else's (other fans) statements as fact.

    Whether a player does or does not provide ancillary income is beside the point. Other than it helps cushion some of the luxury taxes I have no doubt Leslie Alexander will be willing to absorb sometime down the road.

    It sounds like a portion of the Rockets fanbase don't mind a continuous revolving door when it comes to the players on the roster.

    Please list any and all NBA franchises ever in history who continuously had a revolving door policy when it comes to key rotation players and was able to win championships? I know the answer, a big fat 0.
  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I view Asik like a car. We could sell him right now and get a great return....or we could drive him for a couple of great years and let him go before he breaks down....you see, we will get value out of him--playing value.

    Wouldn't you rather sell the car that will leave you in 2 years, than sell the car that will stick around?

  • Hockey the Harden Way says 10 months ago

    well it appears this Lin thread may be finally dying. after 21 pages I think we can all say the man is truly a polarizing player. some look at him and see star.....some look and see a serviceable player.....while some see garbage. whatever your point of view you would have to admit he will continue to be polarizing. I'm sure thedebate here changed very few people's mind, but interesting points have been advanced by all sides. the debate got testy a few times, but for the most part was both constructive and revealing.

    I think the fans are more polarizing than the player himself...... (I'm talking about LOFs and LOHs..... ) I do think there is a lot of resentment regarding Lin getting a so much attention for how much he has achieved. I won't go any further.

    I love Lin the person..... I'm still undecided on Lin the player, only because he seemed a lot more effective with the Knicks than with the Rockets. I do think Lin's problem with the Rockets is that his skill set and the Rockets current offensive system are not compatible.

    I also think there is this strange friction in this particular organization between Lin bringing in $$$ for non-performance reasons and Lin's fundamental incompatibility with the Rockets' offensive system. It's a predicament which will go down to whether Lin's ancillary revenue draw or becoming a title contender is more important for the Rockets organization.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I view Asik like a car. We could sell him right now and get a great return....or we could drive him for a couple of great years and let him go before he breaks down....you see, we will get value out of him--playing value.

    totally agree

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    I view Asik like a car. We could sell him right now and get a great return....or we could drive him for a couple of great years and let him go before he breaks down....you see, we will get value out of him--playing value.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    If I'm to perpetuate the hypothetical analogy I used on another thread yesterday:

    Jeremy Lin is like a $1 baseball card that could be worth $10 next year. What's the point of selling it for $1... because you're worried it will go down to 50 cents? Look at the risk vs reward. You're gambling 50 cents at a good chance to win $10. And after looking at the numbers Lin averaged the last 33 games of the season, and the numbers he put up before his surgery, you would be a fool to not think there's a good chance.

    Asik is like a $20 baseball card who is unlikely to be worth much more than that. The numbers we saw him put up this season might be close to the best numbers he will ever put up. And if you consider the fact he will be an expiring contract next year, it's smarter to cash in on that $20 before the price drops. And if it drops, it could drop alot more than just 50 cents.

    didn't we already go through this yesterday. if you're going to keep repeating your same thoughts this is going to be a really long thread :lol:it's almost like you are trying to use JEDI mind tricks or something :lol:.......like maybe if you say it enough times we will start repeating it :lol:problem is young jedi you have not perfected your skill :lol:

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    If I'm to perpetuate the analogy I used on another thread yesterday:

    Jeremy Lin is like a $1 baseball card that could be worth $10 next year. What's the point of selling it for $1... because you're worried it will go down to 50 cents? Look at the risk vs reward. You're gambling 50 cents at a good chance to win $10. And after looking at the numbers Lin averaged the last 33 games of the season, and the numbers he put up before his surgery, you would be a fool to not think there's a good chance.

    Asik is like a $20 baseball card who is unlikely to be worth much more than that. The numbers we saw him put up this season might be close to the best numbers he will ever put up. And if you consider the fact he will be an expiring contract next year, it's smarter to cash in on that $20 before the price drops. And if it drops, it could drop alot more than just 50 cents. In fact, there's a good chance he will walk via FA in 2015 if he doesn't want to play behind Dwight meaning we lose all $20.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    When someone mentioned that Linsanity was a "fluke", I knew there was no further reason to try and have a reasonable conversation with that person.............It's OK to not like Lin, I get that. But calling what Lin did in NY a "fluke", well, I can't think of any words to describe my feeling about that................

    I can think of a word to help you.............. reality :lol:

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    What are you talking about? Jeremy Lin is better than Lebron James and Kevin Durant and should have been league MVP! Kevin McHale hates anyone named "Jeremy" because he used to get bullied by a kid named "Jeremy" back in Minnesota and that's why he made him play in a way that didn't enhance his skills. Otherwise, he would have posted 30 pts., 12 assists, and 10 rebounds this season. It's only because Lin is such a good person that he allowed James Harden to take the lead role on the team. After his basketball career ends he will go on to be President of the United States, Pope of the Catholic Church, and an astronaut--not all at the same time. :rolleyes:

    Pope, president and astronaut? I would have been fine with president and astronaut, but Pope :lol:

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    lin does not play well when he has to share the basketball....no doubt about that

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago Lin's numbers began to change dramatically when some dude named Carmelo Anthony returned to the lineup.
  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I can't remember how many games that Linsanity period was, like 15 games? It's one thing to call 15 games a fluke, but it's another thing to call all the games post this season's All-Star break a fluke (33 games). If there isn't a bias behind that then there really is no explanation.

    edit: I actually checked out Lin's game log for 2012and I count 26 consecutive games from where Lin broke out until his season ended. I don't how to isolate those 26 games and quickly find out what his averages were, but his per 36 for the entire season was:

    19.6 points

    8.3 assists

    4.8 turnovers

    and during the last 33 games of this season his per 36 was roughly

    17.2 points

    7 assists

    3.2 turnovers

    I don't think these numbers are anything to sneeze at for a guy making only $8.3 million, these numbers are getting pretty close to Mike Conley territory (whose contract is said to be a bargain at $9 million per year).

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago When someone mentioned that Linsanity was a "fluke", I knew there was no further reason to try and have a reasonable conversation with that person.............It's OK to not like Lin, I get that. But calling what Lin did in NY a "fluke", well, I can't think of any words to describe my feeling about that................
  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    well it appears this Lin thread may be finally dying. after 21 pages I think we can all say the man is truly a polarizing player. some look at him and see star.....some look and see a serviceable player.....while some see garbage. whatever your point of view you would have to admit he will continue to be polarizing. I'm sure thedebate here changed very few people's mind, but interesting points have been advanced by all sides. the debate got testy a few times, but for the most part was both constructive and revealing.

    What are you talking about? Jeremy Lin is better than Lebron James and Kevin Durant and should have been league MVP! Kevin McHale hates anyone named "Jeremy" because he used to get bullied by a kid named "Jeremy" back in Minnesota and that's why he made him play in a way that didn't enhance his skills. Otherwise, he would have posted 30 pts., 12 assists, and 10 rebounds this season. It's only because Lin is such a good person that he allowed James Harden to take the lead role on the team. After his basketball career ends he will go on to be President of the United States, Pope of the Catholic Church, and an astronaut--not all at the same time. :rolleyes:

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    well it appears this Lin thread may be finally dying. after 21 pages I think we can all say the man is truly a polarizing player. some look at him and see star.....some look and see a serviceable player.....while some see garbage. whatever your point of view you would have to admit he will continue to be polarizing. I'm sure thedebate here changed very few people's mind, but interesting points have been advanced by all sides. the debate got testy a few times, but for the most part was both constructive and revealing.

  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago I am going to take my next question to you in the Smith thread johnnygold.
  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    I am averse to moving Parsons--I would avoid that at all costs. He's still got a very high ceiling in my opinion.

  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago I haven't given it much thought but if the Rockets had Lin, Harden, Howard and added Josh Smith I would say the Rockets then can move Asik and Parsons. Having Harden, Howard and Smith would be a pretty good core.
  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    I hate to say it, but I would be willing to part with Asik if it meant pairing Smith and Howard together. It's tough, but I do think we would gain more than we lost overall.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I think most here will forget josh if howard comes aboard. however the rockets may not. if we move a couple more contracts we could easily chase both if we miss on cp3. that might mean giving up asik in which case I would be against it

  • Rockets fan newton says 10 months ago Love the articles JG..proves what we have been saying bout josh smith all this time..and have been thinking we might not even need to get another star with Dwight..really think we could win with Lin,harden,parsons,Dmo,Tjones,Dwight,Asik,Bev,Anderson,Garcia(on MLE),draft pick(Sg/sf),vet min(any role player that backs up Pg/Sg)
    Meets a lot if not all of the criteria for a championship and we have the game finisher in Harden
    if that's not good enough we could trade Asik and Dmo/Tjones and a draft pick to Atlanta for Josh smith at 13 mil a Year and go even more beast mode..use another vet min for the open spot
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    He's popular that's why.

    oh you mean kobe

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    He's popular that's why.

    ??????

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago He's popular that's why.
  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    Good points--While those lists and the subsequent effects on championships are compelling it does not mean a particular player can't slide in and fill that role. Asik is a prime example.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Here is a follow-up article to the first one above. It's a little more current (Oct. 2012) and just hammers home more of the same points with updated player lists....No big surprise that Dwight Howard, James Harden, Chris Paul, and Josh Smith made the cut.

    First thought I got from looking at that: Omer Asik might not have made the All-Defensive 2nd Team but he's the same caliber defender as one. In fact, I consider him to be just as good of a defender as Marc Gasol is.

    And this is a unrelated thought I've had for a while: it's ridiculous that Kobe has made 10 defensive teams. All those years of beating out the likes of Artest, Iguodala, Allen, Bowen, Wade, and Battier? Come on..

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    like everyone else...........he sure called the lakers wrong

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    I'll see if I can dig that article up...it was pretty insightful. Here we go! This article was written a few years ago, but the principles still apply.

    Now, here is a newer article with more analyitics (we love that!) that contends there are not 5 NBA positions (pg, sg, sf, pf, c)--there are 13! This potentially changes everything. With more pieces to play with more winning combinations can be found. Here is the LINK. Very interesting read.

    Here is a follow-up article to the first one above. It's a little more current (Oct. 2012) and just hammers home more of the same points with updated player lists....No big surprise that Dwight Howard, James Harden, Chris Paul, and Josh Smith made the cut.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    lets not go to a political

  • Steven says 10 months ago


    130121innauguration_name_callling.jpg

    We should have keep the recept and returned this president within the last 6 months. Of course if he hadn't used the IRS against his enemies...
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    130121innauguration_name_callling.jpg

    :lol: :lol:

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    130121innauguration_name_callling.jpg

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Lin's salary cap per year: $8million.

    Maximum tax penalty: $4.25 per $1.

    Lin's Maximum tax penalty: $34 million

    Lin's estimated draw for the Knicks in 2012: $50 million

    Aside from you don't believe it. Please provide facts stating otherwise.

    Projecting a players salary 2 years from now, when you only have 30-40 games of him playing back up is asinine. You can argue till you're blue in the face, there's just no data to go on.

    why are you discussing tax penalties for Lin's salary? Lin isn't sending the rockets into tax territory. I guess what you are referring to would be his impact on the cap. Lin is a 8.3 mil cap hit in each ofthe next 2 years....not 8mil. it doesn't matter how much extra income he brings in it won't reduce that cap hit. that's what the rockets must work with

    as for projecting players..........any of it is speculation until the games are played, but that's what forums are for to discuss opinions and speculation about your favorite team. what's asinine about that? asinine seems to be the word for the day. anyone who can't support their side of the debate seems to want to call the others asinine. before you throw words around use more thought. I'm sure you can do better like a few facts to support your side instead of trying to degrade others for not sharing your views

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    Lin's salary cap per year: $8million.

    Maximum tax penalty: $4.25 per $1.

    Lin's Maximum tax penalty: $34 million

    Lin's estimated draw for the Knicks in 2012: $50 million

    Aside from you don't believe it. Please provide facts stating otherwise.

    Projecting a players salary 2 years from now, when you only have 30-40 games of him playing back up is asinine. You can argue till you're blue in the face, there's just no data to go on.

    I took the time when this was first posted to go through, read the article, and successfully refute the majority of it as inflated numbers for the sake of journalism. That article started at $150M (potentially) and went on to dissect it into it's parts--both real and speculated--that ultimately ended with a big ? for the Rockets as their organization is set up differently than the Knicks. Basically, all Lin brings directly to the table is potential in-arena advertising and private television contracts (CSN :angry: )--this is probably the main reason why the deal never got done.

    Bottom line, the shift financially for the Rockets is minimal and largely negligible in the grand scheme of things. Lin might cover his own salary, but that's about it. He's not bringing in $50M just because he's on the roster--that fallacy is due to the MSG stock receiving a boon from Lin...the Toyota center will receive no such effect as they are not publicly traded.

    Sorry to rain on your parade--I wanted it to be true--but it's just not. :(

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I remember something johnnygold posted quite some time ago about building teams and maybe it was in a Smith link. One of the take aways for me was that when you build a championship caliber team you want your core to be a top five player, a top 15 (or so) player and an elite defensive player and if the Rockets acquire Howard then you have that core in Harden, Howard and Asik. Why give up that core? Financial burdens down the road can be overlooked when you get a ring I believe.

    Short answer: for depth

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    good stuff JG

  • quatin says 10 months ago

    you argued your points, but didn't prove anything to me that would lead me to believe Lin's impact on the cap is negligible. saying I want to judge Beverly off 30-40 games......what's the problem with that. if you can play this game 30-40 games is enough to see which direction a player is moving as far as development. isn't that the same thing the people who like Lin doing. they want to judge him off the after allstar break numbers(which by the way still don't look that good to me based on the man's salary) what the method used for lin is inappropriate?

    Lin's salary cap per year: $8million.

    Maximum tax penalty: $4.25 per $1.

    Lin's Maximum tax penalty: $34 million

    Lin's estimated draw for the Knicks in 2012: $50 million

    Aside from you don't believe it. Please provide facts stating otherwise.

    Projecting a players salary 2 years from now, when you only have 30-40 games of him playing back up is asinine. You can argue till you're blue in the face, there's just no data to go on.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    Here is an interesting excerpt from the second article:

    "The categories that Muthu unveiled weren't basketball positions so much
    as they were assets. And in order to fully understand them, you had to
    visualize them. To do so, at the MIT conference, Muthu flashed slides of
    the topological networks of two different NBA teams last year. The
    first team was balanced: two scoring rebounders, two paint protectors,
    two role players and a variety of ball-handlers, spread out in a way
    that would seem aesthetically pleasing to someone who doesn't know a
    block from a charge. The second team was messier: too many ball-handlers
    and not even one scoring rebounder among the types scattered in the
    same places. More than anything, the second team just looked wrong, like
    a car with three wheels about to tip over. Muthu cycled through the
    networks once more for effect before he revealed those teams. The first
    was the Dallas Mavericks, which won last year's NBA championship. The
    second was the Minnesota Timberwolves, which won 17 games, the fewest in
    the NBA last year. "

    Noting the description of Dallas' roster it is hard not to think about the Rocket's roster in comparison...
    Two Paint Protectors - Howard/Asik
    Two Scoring Rebounders - Parsons/Greg Smith/D-Mo/T-Jones?
    Two Role Players - TBD (last year Delfino/Garcia)
    A Variety of Ball Handlers - Harden/Lin/Bev/Parsons
    Obviously, this is an obscure comparison as I have little knowledge of his system/parameters or anything else, but it sure sounds like a winner!
    Mostly, this just gives us more food for thought when considering possible line-ups, combinations, and acquisitions.
  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    I'll see if I can dig that article up...it was pretty insightful. Here we go! This article was written a few years ago, but the principles still apply.

    Now, here is a newer article with more analyitics (we love that!) that contends there are not 5 NBA positions (pg, sg, sf, pf, c)--there are 13! This potentially changes everything. With more pieces to play with more winning combinations can be found. Here is the LINK. Very interesting read.

  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago I remember something johnnygold posted quite some time ago about building teams and maybe it was in a Smith link. One of the take aways for me was that when you build a championship caliber team you want your core to be a top five player, a top 15 (or so) player and an elite defensive player and if the Rockets acquire Howard then you have that core in Harden, Howard and Asik. Why give up that core? Financial burdens down the road can be overlooked when you get a ring I believe.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Nvmd, I'm not getting through to you.

    NO I have my thought blocking helmet on :lol:

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago Nvmd, I'm not getting through to you.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    1) What did he do in NY?

    2) who is he, then?

    c'mom now surely we have been over this enough times

    1. NY was linsanity.....if you missed it you weren't watching basketball

    2. lin is a slightly below average to average point guard. nothing detrimental, but nothing special either

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago 1) What did he do in NY?

    2) who is he, then?
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    2 years from now, we will be in a completely different situation. We've only seen Beverly play for 30-40 games, not even starting for the vast majority of them and you're passing judgement on him now? That's way too premature. We haven't really seen Beverly's ceiling yet. Let's see him go through a full summer training camp with the Rockets and run through the plays as a starter. He might turn into a double/double machine or he could be a flop when he can't maintain the same energy levels as a starter through the full season.

    We can agree to disagree about Asik, but I think majority opinion is the Rockets will get rid of Asik to make room for Howard if we need to move a big contract.

    Just repeating your opinion about Lins cap situation doesn't make it true. I've already proved to you how Lin's impact on the cap is negligible. Please provide facts otherwise.

    you argued your points, but didn't prove anything to me that would lead me to believe Lin's impact on the cap is negligible. saying I want to judge Beverly off 30-40 games......what's the problem with that. if you can play this game 30-40 games is enough to see which direction a player is moving as far as development. isn't that the same thing the people who like Lin doing. they want to judge him off the after allstar break numbers(which by the way still don't look that good to me based on the man's salary) what the method used for lin is inappropriate?

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    1) He isn't capable of taking over a game

    2) he will never reach his NY numbers because that's not who he is.

    You see nothing wrong with your comments???

    NO I don't see anything wrong with those comments. I thought you meant I have a spelling error or something :lol:

  • Hockey the Harden Way says 10 months ago

    This has been my stance on Lin since he's been with the Rockets: Good player, but wrong system and coach. Beverley would be okay playing alongside of Harden because he would not be expected to be a ball distributor or playmaker. He would focus on being a pest on defense, crashing the offensive boards and looking for his own offense. To lose Lin, however, would be to lose the Rockets' best interior passer (no matter what the criticism of him may be, there is no disputing this fact).

    This is why I wouldn't be disappointed if the Rox moved Lin to attain better complementary talent for Harden and potential FAs.

  • Hockey the Harden Way says 10 months ago

    1) He isn't capable of taking over a game

    2) he will never reach his NY numbers because that's not who he is.

    You see nothing wrong with your comments???

    As for (1), I think this is true under the current Rockets system (McHale), but it might be false if Lin were to play elsewhere (or under a different coach).

    For (2), probably the case... If he can dump the timid play he took on since joining the Rockets, he should still be fine here, albeit more as a role player than as a star.

    I'll be prepared for the Rox either with or without Lin. But I do think for both the Rox and Lin's sake, Lin traded to another team would be in both parties' best interests.

  • quatin says 10 months ago

    as for Beverly we are discussing 2 years from now when he becomes a FA. I disagree with you on asik for all of my previously stated reasons. as for Lin....his contract isn't negligible to the cap and that's what we are discussing.....our cap situation

    2 years from now, we will be in a completely different situation. We've only seen Beverly play for 30-40 games, not even starting for the vast majority of them and you're passing judgement on him now? That's way too premature. We haven't really seen Beverly's ceiling yet. Let's see him go through a full summer training camp with the Rockets and run through the plays as a starter. He might turn into a double/double machine or he could be a flop when he can't maintain the same energy levels as a starter through the full season.

    We can agree to disagree about Asik, but I think majority opinion is the Rockets will get rid of Asik to make room for Howard if we need to move a big contract.

    Just repeating your opinion about Lins cap situation doesn't make it true. I've already proved to you how Lin's impact on the cap is negligible. Please provide facts otherwise.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago 1) He isn't capable of taking over a game

    2) he will never reach his NY numbers because that's not who he is.

    You see nothing wrong with your comments???
  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago



    It's not that I don't think Lin is good because I believe he will be a good point guard in the right system (definitely never a real All Star though). He is explosive and has a great work ethic but I am not convinced there isn't a better fit at point guard for less money. Furthermore having a superstar like Harden gives the Rockets the luxury of taking there time to find the right point guard. Beverley and Brooks could man the position for a year if Howard were to come on board.

    This has been my stance on Lin since he's been with the Rockets: Good player, but wrong system and coach. Beverley would be okay playing alongside of Harden because he would not be expected to be a ball distributor or playmaker. He would focus on being a pest on defense, crashing the offensive boards and looking for his own offense. To lose Lin, however, would be to lose the Rockets' best interior passer (no matter what the criticism of him may be, there is no disputing this fact).

  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago I agree with you rockets best fan. If anyone gets moved to make space for Howard or for increased flexibility I would be glad to see Lin go. I know many of you don't really see it that way and that's fine, you are all entitled to your opinions.

    It's not that I don't think Lin is good because I believe he will be a good point guard in the right system (definitely never a real All Star though). He is explosive and has a great work ethic but I am not convinced there isn't a better fit at point guard for less money. Furthermore having a superstar like Harden gives the Rockets the luxury of taking there time to find the right point guard. Beverley and Brooks could man the position for a year if Howard were to come on board.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    RBF, do you read your comments before you post?

    your point?

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago RBF, do you read your comments before you post?
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    This will probably be the most asinine statement ever on this web-site. I'm certainly not saying Lin will ever match what he did in NY precisely because the Rockets are a much different (and better) team than the Knicks. Still, it does have to give the casual observer pause to see what Lin (and no other player in the history of the NBA) accomplished during his time as a Knick. Lin will never be expected to take over a game in Houston precisely because Houston is a team.

    To knock Lin's accomplishments is beyond idiocy.

    lin will never take over a game because he isn't capable. he will never reach his NY numbers because that's not who he is. as for asinine statements I think you have made several that would rank superior to this one. believe it or not every statement that doesn't line up with your thinking isn't asinine.

  • Alituro says 10 months ago

    17 points are easily replaceable (Aaron Brooks) as is a 2.00 ASST/TO ratio (half of assists, which are low already are negated by TOs). THOSE NUMBERS ARE NOT THAT GOOD! Neither is .339% 3-pointers. He's just average. He's fun to watch, a good teammate, can be explosive at times, and he's not a terrible player. But, I wouldn't hesitate to trade him if the right opportunity came along.

  • BenQueens says 10 months ago

    As far as AST/TO: Lin's pre/post AllStar numbers there were almost identical- 2.1 A/TO. Here's a list of the folks ahead of Lin in AST/TO, with their ratio and salary (I only included players with 400+ assists this season, Lin had 450-something):

    1. Chris Paul4.26 (MAX)
    2. Jose Calderon4.11 ($9M)
    3. Tony Parker2.94 (MAX)
    4. Greivis Vasquez2.85 ($1.3M)
    5. Rajon Rondo2.84 ($11M)
    6. Andre Miller2.81 ($5M)
    7. Jarrett Jack2.80 ($5M)
    8. Deron Williams2.77 (MAX)
    9. Kyle Lowry2.77 ($5.8M)
    10. Ty Lawson2.75 ($1.7M)
    11. Jameer Nelson2.68 ($8.4M)
    12. Goran Dragic2.68 ($7.5M)
    13. Mike Conley2.58 ($8M)
    14. Brandon Jennings2.57 ($2.5M)
    15. Jeff Teague2.52 ($1.7M)
    16. LeBron James2.44 (MAX)
    17. Ricky Rubio2.43 (MAX)
    18. Darren Collison2.40 ($2.3M)
    19. Kemba Walker2.36 ($2.4M)
    20. Stephen Curry2.25 (MAX)
    21. Russell Westbrook2.22 (MAX)
    22. Damian Lillard2.19 ($3.1)
    23. Jrue Holiday2.14 ($1.8M)
    24. Jeremy Lin2.11 ($8.3M)
    I think that list makes it pretty clear that (with rare exceptions) to get a player that produces Lin's assists with fewer turnovers, you either pay them $5M+ or you draft them. On the other hand, Beverley's per-36 makes him look like one of those steals.
  • BenQueens says 10 months ago

    Just for some perspective, if you think Lin's "Linsanity" performances in NY were a fluke (26 games), and you think his post-AllStar numbers were a fluke (33 games), you think that Lin had fluke performances in 59 (50+%) of his last 117 regular season games. His non-Linsanity, non-injury numbers in NY were 16/7.7 with 3.9 to's.

    Here's where I imagine Morey is realistically worried:

    1. Injuries. After his knee injury in NY, Lin put up13.6/5.9 on 39.1% shooting. Pre-All-Star in HOU on a sore knee, Lin puts up 12.6/6.2 on 43.4%. When he gets a chest contusion, his playoff numbers go absolutely into the toilet. If you chalk his pre-AllStar performance up to recovery from surgery, Lin was injured or recovering from injury 64 out his last 123 scheduled games.

    2. Consistency, though I'd actually like to see someone look at the variance in his numbers over those periods.

    2. System compatibility, about which much has been said.

    Anyway, you don't have to be enamored of Lin, but I think you do have to recognize that moving his contract probably puts a 16.5 point, 7 assist, 3.5 turnover hole in the team's numbers.

  • Rockets fan newton says 10 months ago Yea rbf u make great points..I believe u under value Lin for sure..but yea Asik is better for the team right now..and it is a lot easier to find a decent pg then it is to find a decent center..however I would say the same thing about Lin moving and Asik staying if we got Chris Paul..we don't love Lin it just makes more sense to move a 8mil back up then a 8 mil starter..and I guess we just disagree on Bev being better then Lin in a year..which I don't think is possible..would love to have both with Dwight which I think is the plan..one or both would only be moved for a star player with Dwight in my opinion
  • Alituro says 10 months ago

    Aaron Brooks also played at an all-star level for a short span of his career. So what? Even during the 33 good games played this year, his turnover rate was still deplorable. He makes errant passes, bad decisions and gets his pocket picked too much, his defense sucks and his long range shot does too. What was it 17pts, 7 assists, 3 TOs, 45% FG per game for those 33 you speak of? All-star level? Seriously? That's about middle of the pack, realistically, the sad part is middle of the pack was an improvement. Last year he was overpaid for his performance seeing that a rookie who earns 1/8th of his salary took playing time form him. He will be overpaid next and even more so the following year unless his game improves tremendously, tremendously quick. If landing D12 or CP3 is Morey's first priority this season, finding a buyer for Lin should be his second. Hell, even during his Linsanity streak for NYK, he made mistakes and turnovers abound, even more so than now, but at about the same ratio. Linsanity wasn't a fluke, per se, but more an exaggeration of the player, an example of what you'd get from him if he were to lead your team. To a casual observer it looked impressive, but to a discerning eye, breaking all of the variables and factors down, it wasn't all that impressive.

    I would love to hear an explanation of some "bias" being accused.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I'm not endorsing any personal attacks but Rocketrick has a point. What Lin accomplished during than Linsanity span, and during the span of the last 33 games in the season he played this year, you can't take anything away from that. He played at an All-Star level, imo that should be obvious to unbiased observer.

    You prefer to judge Lin on his play during a team he was recovering from surgery rather than the times he was healthy. I just don't know what I'm supposed to think about that, it just has bias written all over it..

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    a

    3. face it linsanity was a fluke. lin will be more of the player we saw last year. not bad, but not that good either

    This will probably be the most asinine statement ever on this web-site. I'm certainly not saying Lin will ever match what he did in NY precisely because the Rockets are a much different (and better) team than the Knicks. Still, it does have to give the casual observer pause to see what Lin (and no other player in the history of the NBA) accomplished during his time as a Knick. Lin will never be expected to take over a game in Houston precisely because Houston is a team.

    To knock Lin's accomplishments is beyond idiocy.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Let me ask you something. How many pgs making less than $8.3 million (who aren't still on their rookie contract)have averaged better numbers than the ones Lin put up the last 33 games of the season?

    always about the numbers huh!

    1. even after the allstar break Lin's numbers may have been better than before, but his play was still inconsistent. that's why Beverly closed more games out than lin. he was a more consistent player.

    2. as for finding PGs why not chase someone in their rookie deal like Bledsoe? the name of the game is find the cheapest best talent you can when it comes to the thinking of most GMs in the league. so why shouldn't we be doing the same?

    3. face it linsanity was a fluke. lin will be more of the player we saw last year. not bad, but not that good either

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Let me ask you something. How many pgs making less than $8.3 million (who aren't still on their rookie contract)have averaged better numbers than the ones Lin put up the last 33 games of the season?

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Rockets will pick up the team option for Beverly, so he's not going to be a free agent anyway.

    If a major piece is to be traded to make room for Howard, it's Asik. We would be paying $8million for a back up center. We have Olbrecht, Smith and Dmo for back up duty.

    Lin's contract is negligible. I think we discussed this to death. The money he brings in cancels out the cap space he takes up.

    as for Beverly we are discussing 2 years from now when he becomes a FA. I disagree with you on asik for all of my previously stated reasons. as for Lin....his contract isn't negligible to the cap and that's what we are discussing.....our cap situation

  • quatin says 10 months ago

    Rockets will pick up the team option for Beverly, so he's not going to be a free agent anyway.

    If a major piece is to be traded to make room for Howard, it's Asik. We would be paying $8million for a back up center. We have Olbrecht, Smith and Dmo for back up duty.

    Lin's contract is negligible. I think we discussed this to death. The money he brings in cancels out the cap space he takes up.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I don't think Beverley will accept a lowball offer if he thinks he might get alot more in FA.

    who say we will lowball him? about 3 mil per will be his value

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I don't think Beverley will accept a lowball offer if he thinks he might get alot more in FA.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Some team out there will definitely offer Beverley the MLE so he's getting at least $5 million. And I won't be surprised if some team offers him a poison pill contract which would be a nightmare for Daryl Morey if he matches.

    Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken on this, but poison pill contracts can be offered to players who were drafted in the second round and are coming off their first contract.

    we could always extend him next summer to keep him from hitting FA

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Some team out there will definitely offer Beverley the MLE so he's getting at least $5 million. And I won't be surprised if some team offers him a poison pill contract which would be a nightmare for Daryl Morey if he matches.

    Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken on this, but poison pill contracts can be offered to players who were drafted in the second round and are coming off their first contract.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Just to clarify, you're saying you would keep Beverley for $8 million?

    NO I don't think he will be worth that much. because of how he came to the league he must build his value from the ground up. he will probably get 3 mil per on his next deal. at that price he should be kept.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Just to clarify, you're saying you would keep Beverley for $8 million per year?

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I asked this question before but I'll ask it again. When the day comes that we have to offer Beverley an extension, he could get up to 8 million per year. What will you do then? Trade him too?

    I've answered this question before, but I'll answer it again :lol:

    1. if you believe Beverly will get 8 mil on his next contract then you must believe he will become starting caliber?

    2. In 2 years lin's contract runs out too. so we are going to have to pay somebody to man the point guard position

    3. Beverly needs to be keep. his value vs contract is more team friendly

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    He's a RFA in 2015, but the point is we can't just keep trading our starting pg every few years..

  • BenQueens says 10 months ago Is Beverley a RFA after next season?
  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I asked this question before but I'll ask it again. When the day comes that we have to offer Beverley an extension, he could get up to 8 million per year. What will you do then? Trade him too?

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I don't know: Lin's per-36 in NY was about even better, and he was recovering from injury at the beginning of this season. I can understand if you don't think a 17/7 PG is worth $8M, but I don't see a reason to think Lin can't put those numbers up: We're talking about stretches of 30+ games, not fluke occurrences. Rahat made the point a while back that you can approximate that production with cheaper alternatives, and in that vein I think the question for Morey is whether the marginal improvement of PlayerX who you bring in from shipping Lin is actually greater than the decline in production at the PG position. That's really it: How much improvement in the -4 I guess?- can you bring in for losing Lin and subbing in, say, Patrick Beverly and Aaron Brooks.

    the fall off from lin and Beverly to Beverly and brooks isn't that great to me. both Beverly and brooks can be had for half of Lin's salary

  • BenQueens says 10 months ago I don't know: Lin's per-36 in NY was about even better, and he was recovering from injury at the beginning of this season. I can understand if you don't think a 17/7 PG is worth $8M, but I don't see a reason to think Lin can't put those numbers up: We're talking about stretches of 30+ games, not fluke occurrences. Rahat made the point a while back that you can approximate that production with cheaper alternatives, and in that vein I think the question for Morey is whether the marginal improvement of PlayerX who you bring in from shipping Lin is actually greater than the decline in production at the PG position. That's really it: How much improvement in the -4 I guess?- can you bring in for losing Lin and subbing in, say, Patrick Beverly and Aaron Brooks.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    It makes much more sense for the Rockets to open additional cap space by trading Asik instead of Lin. I like both players and their future potential a great deal. It just doesn't make sense for the Rockets to expend so much of their cap space for basically just 1 position on the court which is precisely the problem with signing D12 and keeping Asik. If instead the Rockets traded away Lin and kept Asik, the Rockets would be dedicating 45% of their salary to basically one position on the court. Plus paying Harden. Plus having to pay Chandler Parsons before the 2014-15 season rolls around (in order to keep Parsons from being an unrestricted free agent). Plus all the other positions and depth needed to round out our roster.

    I disagree. true having 2 capable big is a luxury, but well worth it in the big picture. also by trading Lin instead the team can still be upgraded at PG. PG's are a whole lot easier to find than 7 footers

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    1. I'm judging on his potential. If he can put up 17 and 7 for 33 games, putting into consideration his age and how hard he works, I don't see why we can't use those 33 games as a gauge for his potential.

    2. Because there are players who are more expendable than he is.

    3. 8.3m is a bargain for someone who can average 17 and 7 for 33 games. Why not wait and see if he can do that again for longer?

    4. Lets just discuss basketball.

    1. we disagree about his potential so the 17 and 7 is a no starter for me

    2. this is also a matter of opinion. I believe Lin is the most expendable

    3.8.3 mil can be better spent rather than hoping lin lives up to the lofty goals you set for him

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Exactly, we need depth at other positions. Trading Asik would help our depth. Trading Jeremy Lin makes our depth worse (especially considering how we won't have a back-up SG after we drop James Anderson for cap room, and Jeremy Lin can play SG for a bit).

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago It makes much more sense for the Rockets to open additional cap space by trading Asik instead of Lin. I like both players and their future potential a great deal. It just doesn't make sense for the Rockets to expend so much of their cap space for basically just 1 position on the court which is precisely the problem with signing D12 and keeping Asik. If instead the Rockets traded away Lin and kept Asik, the Rockets would be dedicating 45% of their salary to basically one position on the court. Plus paying Harden. Plus having to pay Chandler Parsons before the 2014-15 season rolls around (in order to keep Parsons from being an unrestricted free agent). Plus all the other positions and depth needed to round out our roster.
  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    1. that's after the alstar break numbers.if you are going to discuss it use the year average, but you probably didn't want to do that because they are much lower :rolleyes:

    2. true, but Lin is an expendable piece (IMO) so why not start there

    3. even if only restricting it to salary cap 16.6 is to much for what he produces

    4. go back to the spot where you made this comment and look 1 post above your's

    1. I'm judging on his potential. If he can put up 17 and 7 for 33 games, putting into consideration his age and how hard he works, I don't see why we can't use those 33 games as a gauge for his potential.

    2. Because there are players who are more expendable than he is.

    3. 8.3m is a bargain for someone who can average 17 and 7 for 33 games. Why not wait and see if he can do that again for longer?

    4. Lets just discuss basketball.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    1. 17 and 7 isn't capable? Your definition of capable must be skewed because those are All-Star numbers.

    2. There are other ways to clear the cap room for Howard

    3. The salary cap salary is what's important here. What do you care what Alexander Lin pays out of his back pocket if it has nothing to do with the salary cap? I'm pretty sure Alexander Lin is quite happy with forking out 20m in exchange for the 50m-100m Lin generates in return over those 2 years.

    4. You clearly needed to be reminded.

    1. that's after the alstar break numbers.if you are going to discuss it use the year average, but you probably didn't want to do that because they are much lower :rolleyes:

    2. true, but Lin is an expendable piece (IMO) so why not start there

    3. even if only restricting it to salary cap 16.6 is to much for what he produces

    4. go back to the spot where you made this comment and look 1 post above your's

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    1. we don't need a star just a capable PG and we can find that for less

    2. saving lin for trade bait makes no sense when we can use his money to clear the cap room for howard

    3. Lin may only have a 16.6 cap hit, but he will be paid 20 mil. just because all the money isn't on the cap don't mean it doesn't have to be paid

    4. you always make me laugh with the ridding on superman's coat tail comments. restating something after it as already been said

    1. 17 and 7 isn't capable? Your definition of capable must be skewed because those are All-Star numbers.

    2. There are other ways to clear the cap room for Howard

    3. The salary cap salary is what's important here. What do you care what Alexander Lin pays out of his back pocket if it has nothing to do with the salary cap? I'm pretty sure Alexander Lin is quite happy with forking out 20m in exchange for the 50m-100m Lin generates in return over those 2 years.

    4. You clearly needed to be reminded.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    thanks for posting the videos. Pretty good stuff. I am guessing you are hanging your hat on the McHale statement to Beverley that, "the sky's the limit". I'm not certain how much can be read into that, but it's cool that he said it. I was impressed by both players. I understand your point about looking at Lin economically--I just disagree--I think we've got two good pg's for the next 2 years that are worth every penny.

    I respect your opinion JG. thanks for being objective enough to at least see that it's a valid point I'm raising. I agree if we keep both we can still prosper.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    2016Champions

    photo-thumb-3076.jpg?_r=1370241783

    Posted Today, 01:16 PM

    1. We're not going to get an All-Star pg with 8.3m so there's no point in opening that cap space in hope of getting one.

    2. If we're trading for an All-Star pg, we need assets to trade. Jeremy Lin is an asset.

    3. Quit making Jeremy Lin's contract sound bigger than it is, talking about 18 million over the next 2 years lol. He's 8.3 million per year on the salary books, that's 16.6 million the next two years.

    4. This is a Josh Smith thread. Lets keep the Jeremy Lin talk on the Jeremy Lin thread.

    I know you didn't think I was going to let you get away with this just cause you left it in the j-smith thread :lol:

    1. we don't need a star just a capable PG and we can find that for less

    2. saving lin for trade bait makes no sense when we can use his money to clear the cap room for howard

    3. Lin may only have a 16.6 cap hit, but he will be paid 20 mil. just because all the money isn't on the cap don't mean it doesn't have to be paid

    4. you always make me laugh with the ridding on superman's coat tail comments. restating something after it as already been said

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    thanks for posting the videos. Pretty good stuff. I am guessing you are hanging your hat on the McHale statement to Beverley that, "the sky's the limit". I'm not certain how much can be read into that, but it's cool that he said it. I was impressed by both players. I understand your point about looking at Lin economically--I just disagree--I think we've got two good pg's for the next 2 years that are worth every penny.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I really like the things Lin said in his exit interview and I'm looking forward to seeing him come back better and stronger next season.

    I am too.......just for a different team :lol:

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I really like the things Lin said in his exit interview and I'm looking forward to seeing him come back better and stronger next season.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    this is Beverly's http://www.nba.com/rockets/video/2013/05/06/PatrickBeverleyExitInterviewmp4-2470127

    this is Lin's http://www.nba.com/rockets/video/2013/05/06/ExitInterviewJeremyLinmp4-2470504

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago Could you post those links to the exit interviews?
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    @Rocket fan newton

    Quote:Posted Today, 08:30 AM

    That was sick Rolling Wave..and man can we calm down with this loving Bev thing..I think he is one of the top backup point guards in the league,that's it..the man is skilled at def..but truly most of that is just playing hard..those stats alone prove how much better Lin is..this was both of theirs first full year in the league. you say Bev can get better..soooooooooo can Lin..def is a lot easier to teach the having bball iq, court vision,height,speed,explosion at the rim,finishing at rim,passing, arm reach, and setting up team mates to score..all things Lin does much better right now..the sec part of the season he even shot threes better..so can we please calm down with the Lin is worse then Bev idea..it isn't grounded in any logic..I love Bev..I am 90% sure he will be on this team..I think he will start in this league one day for real..but I am 100% sure at no one point in the next 5 years he will be better at the game of bball then Lin..and yes I think Lin is 8 million dollars better then Bev today..rolling waves stats alone prove that
    Loving Beverly thing? if you like Lin I respect that. I don't agree. the player you think you are looking at doesn't exist to me.........vision, height, speed,EXPLOSION, rim finishing, rim passing, arm reach............slow down on the man crush :lol:dang I thought you started talking about LeBron there for a minute :lol:fact Lin is not 7mil dollars better than Beverly. think about what McHale told Beverly in exit interviews and what he toldLin.
  • Steven says 10 months ago


    I keep trying, I have probably debated almost everyone who likes Lin within this thread. I really like the guy. if the rockets end up keeping him it's not the end of the world. he's not incompetent and with Howard we will be able to hide some of his faults. his contract only runs for 2 more years and we could possibly use that money to keep parsons since his contract and Lin's will end at the same time. I am simply pointing out the advantages of moving the contract vs what we are getting from the player. I know that's not popular, but I'm not one who is persuaded by popular opinion. I lean more on what I think I see whether popular or not. I wasn't going to comment in this thread in the beginning, but it got to the point the love fest was out of control :lol: however at your request I will try to at least tone it down :lol:


    I was just trying to do my best Chris Crocker impersonation.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    "Leave Jeremy Lin Alone!" :(

    I keep trying, I have probably debated almost everyone who likes Lin within this thread. I really like the guy. if the rockets end up keeping him it's not the end of the world. he's not incompetent and with Howard we will be able to hide some of his faults. his contract only runs for 2 more years and we could possibly use that money to keep parsons since his contract and Lin's will end at the same time. I am simply pointing out the advantages of moving the contract vs what we are getting from the player. I know that's not popular, but I'm not one who is persuaded by popular opinion. I lean more on what I think I see whether popular or not. I wasn't going to comment in this thread in the beginning, but it got to the point the love fest was out of control :lol:however at your request I willtry to at least tone it down :lol:

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago That was pretty funny though. My parents both worked in the same school I went to so they got on to me for "only" making 95s and not 99s or 100s. I can totally relate to that stereotype even though I'm white.
  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Even when I disagree with people I admit when they make a fair point.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    RBF is probably more judgmental of Jeremy Lin than his Asian parents:

    lin_Aballplayer.jpg

    just because my judgment isn't clouded by the hype surrounding Lin don't mean I hate him. I just don't think he is a good basketball player

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago LMAO
  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    RBF is probably more judgmental of Jeremy Lin than his Asian parents:

    lin_Aballplayer.jpg

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago Lol. We will see who's right next season. I'm tabling my comments on this discussion until then. Everything's been said already.
  • Steven says 10 months ago "Leave Jeremy Lin Alone!" :(
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    oh no here we go with the Lin pity party again :lol:

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    His early season was abysmal because he came off knee surgery, I get the sense alot of people forget that or just ignore it. It's mind boggling how many fans undermine the fact full recovery from surgery takes time, not just with Lin but Dwight and many others too.

  • Richards says 10 months ago

    We all knew Harden touch ball more than Lin. But Lin still post 13-pt 6-ast after coming back from surgery and playing off the ball.

    His early season was abysmal but improved throughout the year. I hope to see him better coming season.

  • BenQueens says 10 months ago

    where are the turnover numbers? the rebounding numbers? the defensive stats per 36? this is a case where what you posted doesn't show the whole picture. this is like saying a movie is good when you have only watched the promo's

    For what it's worth: 17.2pts, 6.8 asts, 3.2 TOs, 2.5 rebs, 1.2 stls, 45.5% fg, 37.5% 3P, 78.4% FT on 4.1 attempts. It looks like he was better at home, but he had a strong April overall.

    His April per-game:

    9 games

    34.6 min

    17.3 pts

    6.9 asts

    2.6 to

    2.8 rebs

    +/- +5

    My familiarity with stats.nba is pretty weak, so I leave it to better folks than me to dig up defensive stats. Easy to imagine him having, say, Mike Conley's line next year. Whether that's worth the money is another question.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Basically what I'm saying is that Lin played alot better during the second half of the season, simple as that.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    You tell me, you should know alot about him to have such strong feelings about getting rid of him.

    I was only making a point that you manipulate the figures for your purpose. if you are going to quote averages to support your point then put all the averages up.....not just the ones that help your point. that tends to subtract creditability from your point. personally I have already made my view of Lin quite plain. but that's a different point.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    where are the turnover numbers? the rebounding numbers? the defensive stats per 36? this is a case where what you posted doesn't show the whole picture. this is like saying a movie is good when you have only watched the promo's

    You tell me, you should know alot about him to have such strong feelings about getting rid of him.

  • Alituro says 10 months ago

    I know it's been said, but it bears repeating. Don't forget that up until the week before last season began Lin was being groomed to be the #1 scoring option, then Harden comes along and BOOM, nevermind Jeremy, we need you to be a PG again. There had to be a big learning curve for him there, and to putt up those numbers post all star says, he's on the right track. A little roster adjustment this offseason and some good practices, I don't see how he could do anything but improve. Definitely worth sticking with through his contract, even if we do land CP3, he can be valuable backing both guard spots.

  • Rockets fan newton says 10 months ago Amen bro..the ONLY reason Lin shouldn't be on the team is if Chris Paul is here PERIOD!!!!..if Lin is healthy I know his seems crazy but we might still be playing..I fully believe we have a good shot cause OKC point guards can not guard Lin he scores and passes much better then Beverly..Memphis is good but can not score with us and we have a good shot against them..The spurs swept hem for a reason..and for real we are on a. Roll feeling good u really believe we don't have a good shot against the spurs in the finals..we beat golden state all year badly and they threw away games thy should have won against the spurs..I'm for real Lin can play at a top Lvl..u will see next year no matter what team he is on..
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I feel like this needs repeating:

    17.2 ppg

    6.8 ast

    45% fg

    37.5% 3pt

    Those were Jeremy Lin's per 36 post the All-Star break. For a pg who isn't even the main ball-handler, making only 8.3 million per year, those are very good numbers.

    where are the turnover numbers? the rebounding numbers? the defensive stats per 36? this is a case where what you posted doesn't show the whole picture. this is like saying a movie is good when you have only watched the promo's

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I feel like this needs repeating:

    17.2 ppg

    6.8 ast

    45% fg

    37.5% 3pt

    Those were Jeremy Lin's per 36 post the All-Star break. For a pg who isn't even the main ball-handler, making only 8.3 million per year, those are very good numbers.

  • bboley24 says 10 months ago

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201322052756026&set=a.3268826642229.158605.1314220728&type=1&theater

    o6qzr7.jpg

  • Ostrow says 10 months ago

    The entire team really needs to have more intensity on defense. (Asik, Beverly maybe not) Lin is going to have to learn what to do off of the ball. Not something he is really used to. I think he can. He is a really smart guy, and is a hard worker. I think he can be a borderline all-star player if he plays to his potential, but I don't think he will ever be a star. But, if Parsons keeps developing and we end up with Howard he does not need to be an all-star. He will be much better if Howard is on the team. Always having a shot-blocker in the game will help him, and, if Howard is healthy, you can literally throw him the ball anywhere near the backboard and he will catch and dunk it. The passer often gets TOs when the person he is passing to does not catch it. Having Howard there to catch will help. Also a full off-season w/ Harden will do wonders for him.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    Yeah, I feel like he learned a lot as the season went on. He recognizes (and more importantly takes credit for) his mistakes and I expect to see better decision-making (like not jumping and then looking for someone to pass to) and better passes (putting the ball in the right spot for his teammate). I think he needs to get a little better at finishing at the rim too. Another poster here, FeelingSupersonic, has written about the exhaustion the players experienced as the season wore on--I think he is right. Lin did not have enough explosiveness in his legs to be effective throughout the game which allowed defenders to hedge towards his passing lanes and force him to shoot difficult shots (or force bad passes). I presume that is being addressed this off-season. With a little improvement in these areas I think we will have a solid PG to pair with Harden for years to come.

  • Rockets fan newton says 10 months ago Thanks Johnny!! It's great to find some real Rockets fans to talk with. All the other sites I have found have been full of just negative ppl..even the worst round here seems to be a real fan. And I agree that Lin needs to add to his intensity on def. and I fully agree with Howard on the team he will be really close to 15-10. Point being that over half of Lin's turnovers came on Asik's bad hands. Which easily turn into assist in Howard's great hands
  • Rockets fan newton says 10 months ago


    Welcome to the forums! I agree with you that Lin can improve on last year's performance--and if he does will put himself amongst the better PG's in the league. He won't be as flashy as a Derrick Rose or John Wall, but he will be highly effective and that's what counts. If Dwight does come to Houston I could see Lin toying with a 15 pt. 10 assist season. Nothing wrong with that. Even without Dwight I expect improvements as I believe he is doing the hard work necessary to get there. He's got lots of work to do to improve some of the shortcomings in his game, but I don't think they are dire nor insurmountable. I'm looking forward to seeing him play next year.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago I know. The only thing that can't be fixed is speed to cover guys defensively, but as long as he funnels guys into Howard, it's okay. Everything else is fixable.
  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    Simply put. Lin will be on this team unless Chris Paul is on this team next year. We could go into the 100 reason why that is true bit the main two are 1.we all agree he had a bad year with 13p6a. A good year puts him well above average Pg's in the league. 2. He is the Rockets chemistry. Every shot of Rockets enjoying themselves had him in it. There isn't one person in that place that enjoy having Lin there.

    Welcome to the forums! I agree with you that Lin can improve on last year's performance--and if he does will put himself amongst the better PG's in the league. He won't be as flashy as a Derrick Rose or John Wall, but he will be highly effective and that's what counts. If Dwight does come to Houston I could see Lin toying with a 15 pt. 10 assist season. Nothing wrong with that. Even without Dwight I expect improvements as I believe he is doing the hard work necessary to get there. He's got lots of work to do to improve some of the shortcomings in his game, but I don't think they are dire nor insurmountable. I'm looking forward to seeing him play next year.

  • Rockets fan newton says 10 months ago Simply put. Lin will be on this team unless Chris Paul is on this team next year. We could go into the 100 reason why that is true bit the main two are 1.we all agree he had a bad year with 13p6a. A good year puts him well above average Pg's in the league. 2. He is the Rockets chemistry. Every shot of Rockets enjoying themselves had him in it. There isn't one person in that place that enjoy having Lin there.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    this is my second time seeing that video and it's still funny. the dancing is funny. but the thought of the rooks packing around the miss kitty backpack priceless :lol:

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Pretty cool video I thought:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tgT8GzAS6g

    Greg Smith got robbed.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I'm with RBF on that, I think T-Jones will be a better player. Don't get me wrong, I think T-Rob is the better rebounder, better pick and roll defender, better athlete, but half the game is mental and I think Terrence Jones is a much smarter player and has a fantastic attitude.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    If the Rockets trade away Robinson and then lose out in the D12 frenzy, that's going to be a disappointment as I believe Robinson has a brighter future at PF than anyone else the Rockets currently have on their roster. It might take him a couple of more seasons to develop, but I think Robinson can be a productive PF in the NBA.

    I agree robinson can be a good player in the league. however we can't keep everybody. I disagree he will be better than t-jones. it appeared t-jones had all of his skill set, but was a better shooter and better offensive rebounder. I agree t-rob will take a couple of seasons to develop. that's why if we trade him we need to trade him east

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    So just give up on a top-5 lottery pick before our player personnel department have one full off-season to work with him? No doubt, Robinson has the physical talents that so many players in the league lack.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I think Robinson is an air-head.

    edit: but just off his physical gifts alone he could average 15 and 12 with 2 steals and a block per game. Still, I'm not a big fan of air-heads, and if we can get a future lottery pick in return for him I wouldn't consider that a huge loss. Regardless, I don't think we're trading him away unless Dwight verbally commits.

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    I think he means morey spoke highly of hopes for robinson right b4 he hits the trade market

    If the Rockets trade away Robinson and then lose out in the D12 frenzy, that's going to be a disappointment as I believe Robinson has a brighter future at PF than anyone else the Rockets currently have on their roster. It might take him a couple of more seasons to develop, but I think Robinson can be a productive PF in the NBA.

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    The Knicks situation is different. Since they are a repeat offender for being over the cap, they couldn't get the $8million per year cap total that Houston did. The Knicks would've gotten the 5/5/15, hence the term "poison pill". With the increased tax penaltiy in 2014, the Knicks would've had to pay $52.5 million to retain Lin.

    Or the Knicks could have moved some other players and huge salaries like an Amare Stoudemire, for instance after next season before paying Lin the $15 million. I mean, how many more seasons does Stoudemire have in this league? He's breaking down big-time healthwise.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    or talking a lot of sh^t :lol:

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    15 pages--wow.

    RBF is going to be eating alot of crow next season.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Agreed, I wouldn't be like the Knicks and let Lin go to sign some slightly above average pg. If Lin goes, it will have to be for an elite player (of any position) and nothing less.

    *In Bruce Lee's accent* "Don't be like Knicks, be like Spurs my friend."

    Hmm.. or maybe it would sound better Yoda style.. "Like Knicks, be you must not. Like Spurs, be you must" ;)

    I prefer Yoda...........I got one in the voice of Yoda..................this one...his future is very cloudy :lol:

  • quatin says 10 months ago

    Agreed, I wouldn't be like the Knicks and let Lin go to sign some slightly above average pg. If Lin goes, it will have to be for an elite player (of any position) and nothing less.

    *In Bruce Lee's accent* "Don't be like Knicks, be like Spurs my friend."

    Hmm.. or maybe it would sound better Yoda style.. "Like Knicks, be you must not. Like Spurs, be you must" ;)

    The Knicks situation is different. Since they are a repeat offender for being over the cap, they couldn't get the $8million per year cap total that Houston did. The Knicks would've gotten the 5/5/15, hence the term "poison pill". With the increased tax penaltiy in 2014, the Knicks would've had to pay $52.5 million to retain Lin.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Best bromance ever.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cIE84Qiio4

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Agreed, I wouldn't be like the Knicks and let Lin go to sign some slightly above average pg. If Lin goes, it will have to be for an elite player (of any position) and nothing less.

    *In Bruce Lee's accent* "Don't be like Knicks, be like Spurs my friend."

    Hmm.. or maybe it would sound better Yoda style.. "Like Knicks, be you must not. Like Spurs, be you must" ;)

  • quatin says 10 months ago

    we disagree on this. I don't think there is any middle ground here. you will never convince me that the rockets are more concerned about gimmicks than putting a winning team together. I admit lin brings in side income, but not the landslide Yao did. I also agree when he was first brought here it may have been to maximize some outside income based on the fact we didn't yet have harden and appeared to be staring at a down year. however that's about as far as I can go on that. right now I think the rockets #1 focus is building a contender and they will not keep lin just for the outside income......he must produce and if he is unable to live up to his contract (play wise) he will be moved with little consideration given to his side income potential.

    We actually agree on building a contending team. The part we disagree on is how to get there. Money is not a gimmick. The ball club needs money to hire players. It's a contradiction to talk about cap space/salary and want to get rid of Lin's contract this year. If you think he's a terrible player, fine, but it's fact that his contract gives a positive balance to the organization.

    The only legitimate reason to get rid of Lin this year is if he is in the way of signing an elite free agent.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    The best liars don't lie--it's more like a magician's misdirection. :ph34r:

  • Steven says 10 months ago


    I think he means morey spoke highly of hopes for robinson right b4 he hits the trade market


    Don't they always to get max value?
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I don't see anything Morey said that looks like a lie...

    I think he means morey spoke highly of hopes for robinson right b4 he hits the trade market

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I don't see anything Morey said that looks like a lie...

  • huitlacoche says 10 months ago

    I think you guys are putting to much weight on what you hear morey say. in my time of watching him I have never seen him slam a player in the media. even Royce gets a pass. rather than criticize him he will give the(no comment) approach. when asked about lin I would expect him to try and build his player up. however this may have nothing to do with how he really feels. in poker you never show your hand till the end of the game. morey strikes me as someone who would be good at poker. always keep the opponent guessing. so I would put too much stock in every word that come out of his mouth.


    Agreed. Case in point:

    Yesterday:

    May 29, 2013
    Q: Thoughts on Thomas Robinson?

    DM: He is actually here today(at the Toyota Center) working out. We have high hopes for him. We normally wouldn't have the opportunity to get a guy that was 5th in the draft and we are still high on him. He came in a tough spot of the season. This year we could have Dmo, Jones, TRob, Greg Smith, and potential the Turkish player all fight it out to see who's best.

    (link)

    Today:

    Houston Rockets plan to trade Thomas Robinson to free up cap space for run at Dwight Howard


    :lol:

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Like I said, it's a valid point.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Morey's job is like small-scale espionage. They horde data, keep secrets, and try to manipulate everyone else in order to gain advantages in their field.

    my point exactly.......totally agree

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    The number I quoted was from Forbes. It was talking about Lin's impact with the Knicks. Here's the link if you guys are struggling to find it.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2012/02/13/the-economics-of-jeremy-lin-could-translate-into-150-million-by-2012-13-season/3/

    we disagree on this. I don't think there is any middle ground here. you will never convince me that the rockets are more concerned about gimmicks than putting a winning team together. I admit lin brings in side income, but not the landslide Yao did. I also agree when he was first brought here it may have been to maximize some outside income based on the fact we didn't yet have harden and appeared to be staring at a down year. however that's about as far as I can go on that. right now I think the rockets #1 focus is building a contender and they will not keep lin just for the outside income......he must produce and if he is unable to live up to his contract (play wise) he will be moved with little consideration given to his side income potential.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    Morey's job is like small-scale espionage. They horde data, keep secrets, and try to manipulate everyone else in order to gain advantages in their field.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    You guys definitely aren't the first fans who think Morey is full of it so it's definitely a valid opinion.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    I'm inclined to agree with RBF here. No way Morey says anything useful to the media. It's not in his job description. What is in his job description is to do anything and everything to make the Rockets better.

    I'd be a little bit shocked if they don't have non-disclosure and non-compete clauses for most people in that front office. Secrets and lies! Secrets and lies!!!

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I think it depends on the situation and what he says. You can't just generalize everything he says as weightless.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I see what you're saying, that it's possible Morey might be talking up Lin in order to up his trade value before trading him, I just don't think that's the case. At the end of the day GM's aren't going to make trades based on Morey's praises, if it was that easy he should say "according to my statistics Royce White is a monster" and trade him for a lottery pick. BAM!

    I'm not saying Morey doesn't like lin. I'm just saying I wouldn't put to much weight on Morey talking up or defending a player. I don't think when it comes to him that you can always be sure of what his final strategy is. the man has proven in the past above all he is unpredictable.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    The number I quoted was from Forbes. It was talking about Lin's impact with the Knicks. Here's the link if you guys are struggling to find it.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2012/02/13/the-economics-of-jeremy-lin-could-translate-into-150-million-by-2012-13-season/3/

    Ah, ok. From what I can tell most of those numbers are speculative and have very little to do with the Rockets' direct bottom line. According to the article his biggest impact would be on the collective NBA television contract in China which was speculated at an additional $40-$80M. The Interesting thing about that is it affects not just the Rockets' overall cap number, but the entire league's as the salary cap is based off of the NBA's profit margins. Thus, Jeremy Lin makes it easier for every team to sign more talent by raising the overall salary cap limit. Fancy that...

    Lin himself could stand to gain $10-$20M (according to the article) in personal endorsement deals. (no effect on Rockets)

    They used the Knicks as an example saying their revenues could rise $25-$50M; however, the Knicks are unique as Madison Square Garden is a publicly traded commodity and he severely shifted the share price of said commodity. Ultimately, the only direct influences that I saw for the Rockets would be ticket sales and in-arena advertising banners. Ticket sales will come if we are winning so that point is moot. Advertising could spike to some degree, but I would be guessing at how much. I'm not certain if Houston can get an exclusive TV contract overseas or how that all works--if that's the case then yes--lots of money to be made...anybody around here work for CSN?

    Thus, I am still fairly unclear on how much Lin affects the bottom line. It's complicated and there are a lot of hands in a lot of different pies. The Forbes article is taking a macro-look at the numbers and lumping them all together. In the case of what Les Alexander actually sees directly it would be significantly less. It's probably more than enough to cover Lin's salary, but not enough to cover a huge luxury tax payment.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I see what you're saying, that it's possible Morey might be talking up Lin in order to up his trade value before trading him, I just don't think that's the case. At the end of the day GM's aren't going to make trades based on Morey's praises, if it was that easy he should say "according to my statistics Royce White is a monster" and trade him for a lottery pick. BAM!

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    morey has praised many players who no longer play for the rockets while they were in a rocket uniform.......so the point being I would never expect him to talk down on any player while in a rocket jersey. that's part of his buy low sell high approach. you can't sell high if you are bad mouthing the player.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I think Morey omits certain information, he carefully answers questions in a way that doesn't reveal anything to the competition, but I've never heard him giving fake praise before. For example:

    Q: Thoughts on Royce White?

    DM: We are hopeful but he is dealing with a lot issues off the court. It was nice to see him on the court during the 2nd half of season.

    He didn't say anything bad about Royce, but he didn't really praise him either. If anything, saying it's good to see Royce on the court is almost like a jab at Royce because he's always on the couch.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Yes, and I'm guessing his stats are about 20 years ahead of what we have access to, and he also has professional scouts feeding him analysis. We can't put as much salt on his conclusions as we should on our own conclusions.

    I think you guys are putting to much weight on what you hear morey say. in my time of watching him I have never seen him slam a player in the media. even Royce gets a pass. rather than criticize him he will give the(no comment) approach. when asked about lin I would expect him to try and build his player up. however this may have nothing to do with how he really feels. in poker you never show your hand till the end of the game. morey strikes me as someone who would be good at poker. always keep the opponent guessing. so I would put too much stock in every word that come out of his mouth.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Yes, and I'm guessing his stats are about 20 years ahead of what we have access to, and he also has professional scouts feeding him analysis. We can't put as much salt on his conclusions as we should on our own conclusions.

  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago

    I thought it was surprising that despite that slow start and poor finish, Lin still ended up with the third most win shares (according to Morey's stats which are better than what we have access to).

    Just like we all on here on this forum use certain stats, numbers and anecdotes to prove our arguments and disprove others, Morey probably has his own personal formulas and stats where from he draws his conclusions and assessments.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Seems like DM recognizes the massive microscope that Lin is under. I wouldn't expect him to publicly spew the criticisms and concerns he and the Rockets braintrust may have in Lin (or any other player for that matter), but at least he acknowledged Lin's slow start and disappointing end to the season.

    I thought it was surprising that despite that slow start and poor finish, Lin still ended up with the third most win shares (according to Morey's stats which are better than what we have access to).

    Harden won the most games for Rockets, then Asik, and then Jeremy and CP were tied for third.

  • quatin says 10 months ago

    The number I quoted was from Forbes. It was talking about Lin's impact with the Knicks. Here's the link if you guys are struggling to find it.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2012/02/13/the-economics-of-jeremy-lin-could-translate-into-150-million-by-2012-13-season/3/

  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago

    This is not really saying anything, but during these times I thought some people here might appreciate whatever they can get:

    --LINK

    Seems like DM recognizes the massive microscope that Lin is under. I wouldn't expect him to publicly spew the criticisms and concerns he and the Rockets braintrust may have in Lin (or any other player for that matter), but at least he acknowledged Lin's slow start and disappointing end to the season.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    This is not really saying anything, but during these times I thought some people here might appreciate whatever they can get:

    Q: What do you think of how Patrick Beverly took over for Lin?

    DM: Beverly played very well. I hate how Lin's season ended with the muscle pull. Lin had an unbelievable season. Unfortunately most people only remember the beginning and the end. At the start of the season jeremy struggled coming back from knee injury and ended with the chest injury but we are happy with how he played. Harden won the most games for Rockets, then Asik, and then Jeremy and CP were tied for third. So Patrick is going to be a nice rotation player for us at least the next 3 years with a very high ceiling. But about Jeremy, not to be defensive, but we were not expecting him to have 30 points a game 10 assists like he did in New York so we are happy with how he played.

    --LINK

  • thenit says 10 months ago

    Lin's overall value in terms of NBA revenue is overstated. He doesn't bring in near the 50 million he is rumoured to be. He does bring in arena sponsorship money and advertising money. Its more non-related basketball money he can bring in for other players in China. If you remember T-Mac was the best selling jersey when he played with Yao, so his popularity soared in China and he made a lot of moeny doing commercials, and different type of non basketball income. This is what Les gets value of Yao and Lin, by getting his name out there it becomes a lot easier to do commercial business and build a foundation. Not sure how much that ends up being, but it might be 20 or it might be 100 it depends on how well Les utilize the partnerships with the Chinese. Also the TV money can be huge because of ratings. But Yaos impact was probably larger and it built the foundation. Thats why T-Mac could make a boat load of money playing in China despite not being very good anymore.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    Here is an article on Lin's "profitability...there isn't much concrete out there, but this article points out that merchandising is split amongst the entire league (so jerseys aren't as huge a deal). The real profits are from in arena signage, naming rights, and TV Deals (Advertising dollars: this is why you guys couldn't watch Houston last year--they are fighting over the TV advertising money--which is big)

    http://keepingscore.blogs.time.com/2012/07/19/can-jeremy-lins-appeal-in-china-really-help-houstons-bottom-line/

    I couldn't find any concrete dollar amounts so if someone has a link for that please post. From what I could tell, Lin adds to the bottom line, but not by nearly as much as is implied.

  • quatin says 10 months ago

    perhaps you need to educate yourself on the rules of the cba. lin's salary does matter because it's an 8.3 mil hit on the cap regardless of whether it's made up somewhere else or not. so all this free talk sounds silly to me.

    as for conley.....he will make 15 mil in the next 2 years....lin will make 20 mil.........nuff said

    I can't seem to get you to understand that the NBA and it's teams are businesses. Money doesn't grow on trees. The cap space isn't a game made up for all the owners to play "who can jam the most skills into this salary cap". It matters entirely where money comes from. Lin's salary and cap is free. Prove to me other wise. The only way it matters at all is what johnnygold pointed out about trading and drafting penalties.

    true however that also proves my point.......if you win the money will
    come. it's more important to build a winner than a gimmick to promote a
    teams brand........I think you guys are missing my point. lin may sell a
    few extra jerseys. but the overall benefit doesn't outweigh the benefit
    of building a winning team whether it has lin on it or not. NOTHING
    makes the cash register ring like winning. the rockets should be more
    concerned with building a winning team than floating a few extra jerseys
    based on the fact they have a player of Asian decent.

    I get your point. I just think you're wrong. How is Lin holding this team back? He's not stopping the Rockets from getting D12 or Lebron James. You can build a team around an average PG as I already proved to you. Having a free PG is just as much a strategy to winning as it is one of making a profit. You can't have a team of 5 super-star players. At most you can pay for 2. After that it's strategizing on filling in the holes with the least amount of money possible. The Rockets are trying the super-star C and SG. Therefore the PG position is just a filler. Houston isn't a big draw like Miami or LA, so veterans aren't going to take a pay cut just to play for Houston.

    You're also marginalizing $50 million. Before you keep on hand waving about "a few jerseys", provide some facts about what the Rockets have to gain and lose. Lin's marketability almost covers the pay roll for the Rockets. When teams make player cuts for only $20 million tax money, $50 million can buy you a heck of a lot of talent.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    You're right, RBF, but it's not just jersey sales--you know that. I think one of the main differences is we think Lin can be a part of a winning team so it's a win-win in our eyes. I can see how, to you, that is not the case and so it looks different. I can agree that I would not want a player I thought was not good enough on the team just for financial reasons. We disagree on Lin, but I get where you're coming from.

    thank you JG for having the objectiveness to step back and look at the situation. I know we won't agree on lin, but that was not my point. some here are so busy trying to defend him that they refuse to look at anything objectively that involves his name. my point is a team stands to gain more by building a winning tradition than gimmicks to sell their brand. keeping lin solely for the purpose selling merchandise and not because of his playing ability is something that I don't think the rockets would do if it stood in the way of winning. so bringing up his off court value to me is irrelevant when we are discussing building a winning team. he will not be kept because he is Asian...he will be kept if the rockets believe he can be the player they need at that position. winning trumps gimmicks........and right now the rockets are more concern with winning

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    You're right, RBF, but it's not just jersey sales--you know that. I think one of the main differences is we think Lin can be a part of a winning team so it's a win-win in our eyes. I can see how, to you, that is not the case and so it looks different. I can agree that I would not want a player I thought was not good enough on the team just for financial reasons. We disagree on Lin, but I get where you're coming from.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I've read articles where Pat Riley talks about the possibility over paying the huge tax bill in 2015 if they want to keep the big 3 together, and he said Mickey Arison (the owner) might be willing to do it if Miami signs a big TV deal that will make them around 50m.

    That's just an example of how off-the-court income can effect the owner's decision to pay a huge tax bill.

    true however that also proves my point.......if you win the money will come. it's more important to build a winner than a gimmick to promote a teams brand........I think you guys are missing my point. lin may sell a few extra jerseys. but the overall benefit doesn't outweigh the benefit of building a winning team whether it has lin on it or not. NOTHING makes the cash register ring like winning. the rockets should be more concerned with building a winning team than floating a few extra jerseys based on the fact they have a player of Asian decent.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I've read articles where Pat Riley talks about the possibility over paying the huge tax bill in 2015 if they want to keep the big 3 together, and he said Mickey Arison (the owner) might be willing to do it if Miami signs a big TV deal that will make them around 50m.

    That's just an example of how off-the-court income can effect the owner's decision to pay a huge tax bill.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    I think the point Quatin's trying to make is that an owner would be willing to enter the luxury tax and pay a higher total salary for his team knowing that Jeremy Lin's global appeal keeps the overall balance sheet in the green. Thus, the salary cap is less of a factor when building your team--I'm not saying it isn't a factor at all, but certainly if you are an owner looking at a $25M tax bill if you sign player X, but you are swimming in the $50M that Lin brought in on his own you still come out ahead and can still field the competitive team you are looking for.

    I'm sure there are a few drawbacks regarding flexibility under the CBA in making trades and such while being over the tax threshold, but if you can navigate that mess then it makes sense to me. If it does tie your hands then that's another story.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I think you're being misleading.

    1. Conley makes over 17m the next 2 years (according to hoopsworld)--not 15m
    2. You're trying to make it sound like Lin got a much bigger contract than Conley which is not the case

    Conley got 45m/5years

    Lin got 25m/3years

    Conley's contract averages out to 9m per year

    Lin's contract averages out to 8.3m per year

    So in actuality, Conley is getting paid more than Lin.

    true I was looking at this year and next, my bad however in real money lin is still higher. he has an 16.6 cap hit, but will really make 20 mil.....so again who gets more? besides I don't want conley either. both he and lin can be upgraded within their teams and the team will be much better off....so what's the point with discussing conley?

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    perhaps you need to educate yourself on the rules of the cba. lin's salary does matter because it's an 8.3 mil hit on the cap regardless of whether it's made up somewhere else or not. so all this free talk sounds silly to me.

    as for conley.....he will make 15 mil in the next 2 years....lin will make 20 mil.........nuff said

    I think you're being misleading.

    1. Conley makes over 17m the next 2 years (according to hoopsworld)--not 15m
    2. You're trying to make it sound like Lin got a much bigger contract than Conley which is not the case

    Conley got 45m/5years

    Lin got 25m/3years

    Conley's contract averages out to 9m per year

    Lin's contract averages out to 8.3m per year

    So in actuality, Conley is getting paid more than Lin.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Conley has basically the same stats as Lin and is paid the same ($7.5millionish). My point is you called Conley a decent point guard, but yet you consider Lin bad and over paid. That's a mighty fine line you draw between decent and "not championship worthy".

    You still don't seem to understand salary, income and how it pertains to Lin. Lin's salary and cap space hit is irrelevant. Lin is an average PG that comes FOR FREE. I just showed you how Lin can make up for his salary and taxes even if we were the worst cap space offending team. Think about that for a minute. Any team that doesn't have an elite PG, can get him as an average PG FOR FREE. They can then spend the rest of the team salary on upgrading the rest of the 4 positions. I just listed several examples of teams that are successful with only average PGs.

    You're just making stuff up about what Lins worth his. I gave you a cold hard fact. It was published in Forbes. Lin brought in an estimated $50 million for the Knicks last season. The Knicks may have a larger fan base, but Houston has better marketing structures to Asia due to Yao.

    perhaps you need to educate yourself on the rules of the cba. lin's salary does matter because it's an 8.3 mil hit on the cap regardless of whether it's made up somewhere else or not. so all this free talk sounds silly to me.

    as for conley.....he will make 15 mil in the next 2 years....lin will make 20 mil.........nuff said

  • quatin says 10 months ago

    I called conley decent not good. so I don't know what's your point on that :wacko:

    LA? why would I be on a witch hunt for LA? the only thing LA lakers can do is watch D-12 walk to Houston and cry on their pillows :lol:I don't care about what's happening in LA. however as for my view of their team nash= washed up kobe= ? metta= washup/crazy pau= on the back 9 d-12= now Houston's player...................the days of the lakers just being able to buy want they want when they want are over. unfortunately for them they must learn how to build a team rather than buy one. how soon they adapt will determine if they are relevant any time soon.

    as for lin........lin is an average to slightly below average point guard. however he is makingstarting point guard money. if the rockets keep lin it won't be the end of the world, but his contract takes up room that can be better used on upgrading the position. when not if .........when we sign D-12 lins contract will become an anvil to the rockets chance to keep adding to the team. lin is owed 20 mil in the next 2 years (16.6 cap hit). his play is not worth that kind of money. their are cheaper better options available which have been discussed already in this thread, so I want even go there. the rockets have a chance to rid themselves of lin now, reel in howard and still be under the cap with room to improve. that's a win-win in my book

    as for lin's side money income........lin is not as big of a hit in china as Yao was. while he is liked LeBron sells more sneakers :lol:he does have some following in America, butagain not like Yao did. Yes he does produce other income for a team. however winning teams produce income too. if you win you don't need some false side show to bring in the bucks. championship contenders have no problem selling their merchandise. it's more important to build a contending team than worry about bringing in gimmicks to promote a teams brand.

    Conley has basically the same stats as Lin and is paid the same ($7.5millionish). My point is you called Conley a decent point guard, but yet you consider Lin bad and over paid. That's a mighty fine line you draw between decent and "not championship worthy".

    You still don't seem to understand salary, income and how it pertains to Lin. Lin's salary and cap space hit is irrelevant. Lin is an average PG that comes FOR FREE. I just showed you how Lin can make up for his salary and taxes even if we were the worst cap space offending team. Think about that for a minute. Any team that doesn't have an elite PG, can get him as an average PG FOR FREE. They can then spend the rest of the team salary on upgrading the rest of the 4 positions. I just listed several examples of teams that are successful with only average PGs.

    You're just making stuff up about what Lins worth his. I gave you a cold hard fact. It was published in Forbes. Lin brought in an estimated $50 million for the Knicks last season. The Knicks may have a larger fan base, but Houston has better marketing structures to Asia due to Yao.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Dude you're being way too closed minded but whatever. We all have our opinions and that's cool.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Lin's value off the court can help us on the court in the future. The more money the owner makes, the more he will be willing to go into the luxury tax. And it's not like Lin is a bad basketball player at all, I don't think there are many 24 year old pgs better than Lin in FA.

    Now even if you don't think Lin has potential to get better, age is still relevant is because we want to have a core that can stay together for 10+ years like the Spurs, we don't want to be like the Knicks who never really build any chemistry because they're always changing their core pieces with impatient moves.

    lin's off court value is irrelevant to building a championship contender.

    lin's age is also no reason to just hang onto him. either he plays like a starting point guard or is replaced. as far as I'm concerned I've already seen enough. I say it's time for an upgrade

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Lin's value off the court can help us on the court in the future. The more money the owner makes, the more he will be willing to go into the luxury tax. And it's not like Lin is a bad basketball player at all, I don't think there are many 24 year old pgs better than Lin in FA.

    Now even if you don't think Lin has potential to get better, age is still relevant is because we want to have a core that can stay together for 10+ years like the Spurs, we don't want to be like the Knicks who never really build any chemistry because they're always changing their core pieces with impatient moves.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    You call Conley a good point guard, but not Lin? Just exactly what are you looking at? Conley has a 14.6/6 average, Lin as a 13.4/6 average. Are you just basing everything off the playoffs?

    The Lakers fault this year was recovering from injuries and player chemistry in a new team. Don't even pretend that you can fault any one player on the Lakers roster. After guys were healed up, what was their post all star record? Even if you want to go on a witch hunt on the Lakers this year. Who was PG for the Lakers in 2011 when they won the division title? Derek Fisher. With respect to Miami. If you aren't already aware, Houston is trying to get an all-star C or PF. If we pair Harden with Howard. We would have almost no cap space left. At that point, money becomes all the more important to fill in the pieces around our all-stars. Just like Miami.

    You may not care about money, but every other NBA team does. Your original claim is no one would want Lin due to low trade value. That's plain wrong. A player that pays for himself is a good acquisition for any team that doesn't have the option of getting an elite PG.

    I called conley decent not good. so I don't know what's your point on that :wacko:

    LA? why would I be on a witch hunt for LA? the only thing LA lakers can do is watch D-12 walk to Houston and cry on their pillows :lol:I don't care about what's happening in LA. however as for my view of their team nash= washed up kobe= ? metta= washup/crazy pau= on the back 9 d-12= now Houston's player...................the days of the lakers just being able to buy want they want when they want are over. unfortunately for them they must learn how to build a team rather than buy one. how soon they adapt will determine if they are relevant any time soon.

    as for lin........lin is an average to slightly below average point guard. however he is makingstarting point guard money. if the rockets keep lin it won't be the end of the world, but his contract takes up room that can be better used on upgrading the position. when not if .........when we sign D-12 lins contract will become an anvil to the rockets chance to keep adding to the team. lin is owed 20 mil in the next 2 years (16.6 cap hit). his play is not worth that kind of money. their are cheaper better options available which have been discussed already in this thread, so I want even go there. the rockets have a chance to rid themselves of lin now, reel in howard and still be under the cap with room to improve. that's a win-win in my book

    as for lin's side money income........lin is not as big of a hit in china as Yao was. while he is liked LeBron sells more sneakers :lol:he does have some following in America, butagain not like Yao did. Yes he does produce other income for a team. however winning teams produce income too. if you win you don't need some false side show to bring in the bucks. championship contenders have no problem selling their merchandise. it's more important to build a contending team than worry about bringing in gimmicks to promote a teams brand.

  • quatin says 10 months ago

    @quatin

    I really don't care about lin's ability to bring in side money. his job is to play basketball....something that he's not very good at. funny you shouldbring upMiami, LA and Memphis........first off Memphis has a decent point guard in conley....or have you not been watching the playoffs? as for Miami and LA both teams had multiple stars which allowed them to better cover the fact that they don't have good point guards.....something Houston didn't have the luxury of. besides LA didn't make any noise this year....perhaps if they would have had something other than the shell of a player who use to be steve nash they might still be in the playoffs huh?

    You call Conley a good point guard, but not Lin? Just exactly what are you looking at? Conley has a 14.6/6 average, Lin as a 13.4/6 average. Are you just basing everything off the playoffs?

    The Lakers fault this year was recovering from injuries and player chemistry in a new team. Don't even pretend that you can fault any one player on the Lakers roster. After guys were healed up, what was their post all star record? Even if you want to go on a witch hunt on the Lakers this year. Who was PG for the Lakers in 2011 when they won the division title? Derek Fisher. With respect to Miami. If you aren't already aware, Houston is trying to get an all-star C or PF. If we pair Harden with Howard. We would have almost no cap space left. At that point, money becomes all the more important to fill in the pieces around our all-stars. Just like Miami.

    You may not care about money, but every other NBA team does. Your original claim is no one would want Lin due to low trade value. That's plain wrong. A player that pays for himself is a good acquisition for any team that doesn't have the option of getting an elite PG.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    I agree lin is a good locker room guy, but he gets paid to be more than just a locker room guy. he gets paid to be a good basketball player.......that's the area where he's coming up short

    Eh, you may be right....but I hope you're wrong B)

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    LOL, I didn't realize it was going to light this kind of fire :lol:

    I'll add this to it--I think Lin is a great chemistry guy for our team. That influence has intrinsic value that is largely immeasurable and even more difficult to quantify in terms of dollars. I'm not saying it should swing anyone's opinion one way or the other--just mentioning it as it bears consideration.

    I agree lin is a good locker room guy, but he gets paid to be more than just a locker room guy. he gets paid to be a good basketball player.......that's the area where he's coming up short

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    @quatin

    I really don't care about lin's ability to bring in side money. his job is to play basketball....something that he's not very good at. funny you shouldbring upMiami, LA and Memphis........first off Memphis has a decent point guard in conley....or have you not been watching the playoffs? as for Miami and LA both teams had multiple stars which allowed them to better cover the fact that they don't have good point guards.....something Houston didn't have the luxury of. besides LA didn't make any noise this year....perhaps if they would have had something other than the shell of a player who use to be steve nash they might still be in the playoffs huh?

  • quatin says 10 months ago

    from your view of what the luxury tax is I can see you need to do a little research on it. the luxury tax was put in place to keep the mega market teams from hoggin all the talent. by limiting how much a team can spend on players and fining them for surpassing that said limit it helps level the playing field for all teams. money does matter, but so does winning. a team that goes to the championship series will make much more than a team trying to sell it brand on the fact one of it's players is of Asian decent......so yes it is about money, but winning spells money.

    Irony you bring up research. Have you done any research on Lin's impact on the franchise? Lin brought in $50 million for the Knicks in the past season. That's almost the entire 2013 salary for the Rockets combined. Now what of the luxury tax? Houston isn't even in the red, but let's pretend we are. If the Rockets are in the worst possible category for the tax penalty ($20 million over for several years) we would only have to pay $34 million in taxes for having Lin on the roster. Here's a guy who pays for himself in the worst financial situations and he's not even a terrible player. So why exactly is he un-desirable to any team?

    You're making Lin a scape goat, like he's the sole reason why we won't win a championship and therefore no one else will win with him either. Plenty of teams are successful with average PGs. Miami, LA, NY and Memphis to name some off the top of my head. So unless a team can get an elite PG, any team would see trade value in Lin.

  • miketheodio says 10 months ago

    wow TJG put is so much better than I did. omw to the new thread.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    You're right...it's so easy to get sidetracked :D

    Here is the new thread

  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago This could be a great discussion about the offensive approach the Rockets take but it should probably be opened in another topic if you all choose to continue this as this has strayed far from the original topic which has also been a good topic. Thank you.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago Will we ever be unstoppable? I like Harden but he'll never be a Lebron type player. All of the great players had a midrange game to keep defenses honest. Parker is a better version of what Harden should strive for. While not as adept at getting foul calls, he's just as fast, if not faster (I think he's slower than he used to be) Once he added that midrange jumper and that floater, the offense can run through him. Once Harden develops that and we surround him with legit 3 point shooters this team will be scary. But to say we don't need a midrange game to go to the next level is confusing to me.
  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    2016, I totally agree--I'm just looking to expand on what is already a good thing.

    I'm not overly concerned with the league average from mid. Like the McHale quote implies--it's who is shooting them that matters. Counting the total from every player diminishes the notion that one player can do it much better. I'd let David West or Rip Hamilton shoot from 15 ft. all day if they were on my team.

    Unpredictability is under-rated. There is a reason teams spend millions on scouting reports and analytics. It is so they can see what's coming and plan for it. Being "unstoppable" is reserved for a select few (Lebron). Sure, no team can "stop" us from shooting threes, but they can make those shots harder to get off--lowering their efficiency and value. Further, they can choose to let us shoot them while shutting down our true bread and butter of driving to the rim/transition baskets. Would you rather a team shoot contested threes all night or open 15 ft. jumpers (presuming the guy shooting them isn't a league-average-chump)?

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    If the game is on the line and we only need a 2, now that's a different story, but for the most part unpredictability is overrated. If you have guys who can penetrate then the defense has no choice but to rotate because the alternative is letting us score in the paint, and when we're forcing defenses to rotate while we're moving the ball around we're going to get open looks. Now, remember, the league average from mid-range is 38%, that's the equivalent to shooting 25%

    What are the chances we shoot below 25% from behind the arc? One out of every 10 games? I'll take those chances, because the chance of shooting 38% or lower on all our long 2's is more than one out of every 2 games.

    You don't need to be unpredictable when you're unstoppable, and if we get another superstar (eg. Dwight) then I don't see any reason why we can't create enough open looks to consistently shoot above 25% from 3 almost every game.

    At the end of the day it's a coaching decision, and I don't see any reason why we're going to change something that is a big reason why we're one of the best offenses in the league. Even if McHale doesn't get rehired after next season, I bet Morey will hire another coach who believes in this philosophy.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    thejohnnygold

    I am upset with you :lol:when you ask me to list the faults of lin , it set off a tornado. you know I don't mind a good debate, but I didn't see the backlash that was brewing. I fell right of that cliff :lol:however I guess it was a good thing because there appeared to be a lot of uncovered opinions on lin. he is truly a polarizing player. very few are neutralwhen it comes to him.I found myself trying to make others understand while bashing him I don't hate him. that he is capable enough for us to ride out his contract, but we would be better off moving him if the chance came along. in the previous post leading up to that list of his faults that's why I kept using word like fatal or crippling flaws instead of going into detail.. you know me tho I never run from a good debate :lol:

    LOL, I didn't realize it was going to light this kind of fire :lol:

    I'll add this to it--I think Lin is a great chemistry guy for our team. That influence has intrinsic value that is largely immeasurable and even more difficult to quantify in terms of dollars. I'm not saying it should swing anyone's opinion one way or the other--just mentioning it as it bears consideration.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    I'm with you on this one, Miketheodio. The Rockets would benefit from shooting some mid-range (12-18 ft.) just to keep the defense honest--it will open up the inside and outside so that we can then shoot even more efficiently from those spots. Predictability is something good NBA defenses will smother and destroy. Zach Lowe just wrote a bit about this from the Clipper's perspective. His criticism was that once plan A breaks down there is no plan B. Plan B doesn't have to be a mid-range jumper every time, but if that is what the defense is leaving open then why not take it?

    Kevin Mchale quipped (I can't find the quote), when being asked about shooting percentages on mid-range shots, that what matters is who is taking them.

    I think the thing that is being overlooked in these efficiency discussions is that a shot with even a 40% success rate is better than no shot at all (0%) or a rushed, highly contested shot (likely lower than the par level for efficiency standards). If we can get good looks from our preferred shot locations then by all means--do it. However, once the defense has keyed in and focused on making these shots much harder their efficiency will decrease--despite the overall numbers indicating otherwise. Surely, we can all recall watching the Rockets stubbornly continue to repeat the same offense when obviously the opposition had it snuffed out. There's a difference between sticking to your guns and being stubborn.

    Further, there is greater variance on three pointers. Because of the distance from the basket the shots require more precision and accuracy. The accuracy must be there first, but then the precision to make them in bunches must also be there. This is why we more often see high volume three point shooters vacillate between going 4-7 one night from "3" and then 1-7 the following night. This makes their offensive contribution less reliable from one game to the next. When they're falling in it's great (think Golden State, Utah, etc.) but when they're not dropping it's cringe-worthy. Over the course of a season, we will see a median score settle into place; however, the path to that score is not linear. Rather, it is more like the ship that must tack back and forth zigging and zagging along towards it's destination.

    With the mid-range jumper your base percentage (accuracy) may be lower (when viewed from the scoring perspective of efg%); however, your precision should be higher and more stable. You are not as likely to see the wild swings from one night to the next. Thus, the shot can be a reliable part of the offense night in and night out. They don't call it, "living and dying by the three" for nothing.

    Regarding Jeremy Lin, this was a big part of his game during Linsanity in NY. He mixed it up with drives, threes, and pull up mid-range jumpers to keep defenders on their heels at all times. By eliminating the mid-range option defenders knew immediately how to react once he made his first move. It goes against perception from the stats, but in real-time basketball I believe it bears true.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago Parker also shoots the midrange jumper
  • miketheodio says 10 months ago

    i knew you would think i meant basing the entire/majority of the offense on 2s. I'm saying to incorporate it into the offense so it has more options. if 3s are going in and a team doesn't allow an easy bucket? if the defense has a hole in that area? more options are never a bad thing.

    this is the problem with using numbers to decide everything.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I'm just talking about long 2's though, so if you're talking about 5-10 foot floaters I'm not 100% sure about that but I doubt there are many players in the league besides Tony Parker who shoot above 50% on their 5-10ft floaters. And for whatever it's worth, Parker takes less than one floater per game according to stats.nba.com

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    The advantages of taking an inefficient shot don'toutweighthe disadvantages of taking inefficient shots. Also, if you look at the teams that take the most mid-range shots vs the teams that take the least amount of mid-range shots you will see that there is a correlation with offensive efficiency. For example, 76ers lead the league in long 2's and rank 26th offensively. Rockets take the least amount of long 2's and ranked 6th offensively. Ofcourse, there is one team that is a glaring exception--the Golden State Warriors--but the Warriors are the exception not the rule.

  • miketheodio says 10 months ago

    I'm not sure why you're asking. Regardless of whether or not it's 8 feet or 20 feet it's still two points.

    For what it's worth, the majority of mid-range shots are taken 16 feet and beyond, and there is only one player in the league (that I know of) who shoots above 50% from mid-range beyond 16 feet--Bosh (alot of that has to do with the fact he's often so wide open out there). The league average from that range is 38%

    www.hoopdata.com

    so you don't think there is any advantage in disrupting defenses with 15 foot and less pick pops, stopping around the high post while the defense is out of position, or a 5-10 ft floater?

    edit for defenses

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I'm not sure why you're asking. Regardless of whether or not it's 8 feet or 20 feet it's still two points.

    For what it's worth, the majority of mid-range shots are taken 16 feet and beyond, and there is only one player in the league (that I know of) who shoots above 50% from mid-range beyond 16 feet--Bosh (alot of that has to do with the fact he's often so wide open out there).

    The league average from that range is 38%, and even elite shooting guards don't get much higher than that, Kobe shoots 40% from that range--the fact Kobe takes so many 40% 2's is the reason why his eFG% (effective field goal percentage is an adjusted version of FG% that accounts for the fact 3pt shots are worth more) is the same as Harden's even though Harden only shoots 36% from that range.

    www.hoopdata.com

  • miketheodio says 10 months ago

    I disagree that McHale should let Lin take more mid-range shots, that's the most inefficient shot in basketball.

    45% midrange is the same thing as a 30% 3-pt.

    50% midrange (very, very rare) is the same thing as a 33.3% 3pt (very common).

    So unless Lin becomes a 50% mid-range shooter, I would prefer if he sticks with the Rockets philosophy--shots at the rim, free throws, and 3's.

    what is your definition of mid range? like a shot at the post or one of those long 2's kobe and melo take?

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I disagree that McHale should let Lin take more mid-range shots, that's the most inefficient shot in basketball.

    45% midrange is the same thing as a 30% 3-pt.

    50% midrange (very, very rare) is the same thing as a 33.3% 3pt (very common).

    So unless Lin becomes a 50% mid-range shooter, I would prefer if he sticks with the Rockets philosophy--shots at the rim, free throws, and 3's.

  • Hockey the Harden Way says 10 months ago

    I think the issue with Jeremy Lin is his game being compatible with Coach Kevin McHale's system. I think from Lin's perspective, the key will be developing the three point shot and becoming consistent, which would open up his ability to drive the basket. Lin's strength is his midrange game, and I think McHale needs to allow more leeway in Lin's midrange game, and Lin needs to act more instinctively under McHale's system. Lin also needs to be more active off the ball, he seems to shoot better coming to a stop than being stationary.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    in addition ......forgot the pg adjustment comment............we have 82 games next year to get adjusted b4 the playoffs sounds like enough time to me

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Any PG we get will have to learn how to play off the ball. Unless we get a wing and just make the switch with Harden. Plus there is an adjustment phase for PGs. They aren't called floor generals for no reason.

    sure they are going to have stretches where they play off the ball, but still need to be effective. I agree. that's what we are looking for. however lin can't fill that role in my book. we need to be looking for some one who can

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I don't know many PGs that don't like to handle the ball. With Lin(from what we've seen) that isn't a big problem. But PGs are mainly divas. AI, Marbury, Westbrook, need I go on?

    from this statement I assume we agree that harden does a lot of ball handling. that the best pg fit for this team is a point guard who is going to share this responsibility with harden and still be an effective player with other aspects of his game. while we agree on that believing a true pg who has an effective 3 point shot can't co exist with harden is something I don't agree with.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago Any PG we get will have to learn how to play off the ball. Unless we get a wing and just make the switch with Harden. Plus there is an adjustment phase for PGs. They aren't called floor generals for no reason.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I think he's slightly above average with the potential to be better. Getting an upgrade wouldn't be that hard. Getting an upgrade for that price that would be willing to never handle the ball? Not very likely, IMO. Plus you have to factor attitude, character, etc... Plus having a new PG will set this team back further.

    interesting........."Plus having a new PG will set this team back further"................your comment. my question....HOW? having a new pg who can't play will set us back, but if we get a new pg who is better than lin how will that set us back? if we get said player in the summer while he still has time to go through training camp how does that set us back? please explain!

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    You also have to consider how unhappy Chandler will be, they seem pretty close.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4eCj-nX1Tk

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago I don't know many PGs that don't like to handle the ball. With Lin(from what we've seen) that isn't a big problem. But PGs are mainly divas. AI, Marbury, Westbrook, need I go on?
  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago I think he's slightly above average with the potential to be better. Getting an upgrade wouldn't be that hard. Getting an upgrade for that price that would be willing to never handle the ball? Not very likely, IMO. Plus you have to factor attitude, character, etc... Plus having a new PG will set this team back further.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Do we have a reasonable shot at getting somebody that much better than Lin that it'll be worth setting the team back? I don't think so. If we get Cp3, then that's another story. But for a slight upgrade in a guy like Calderon(who has peaked by the way), or someone of that calibre? I definitely think that it would not be beneficial to us. I hope we draft the best guy available as no roster spot is guaranteed. Even Harden's. He can be moved to SF if we get somebody amazing at SG.

    it depends first off what you opinion of lin is. if you see him as a star.......then probably not. if you see him as an average player or lower then there are a ton of options......so it really depends on what you think lin is first. my personal opinion....there are a ton of options :lol:

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    If money coming in doesn't matter then why does money going out (salary) matter? The only reason the team worries about the luxury tax is, because the owners don't want an unprofitable ball club. If Lin brings in more money than he is being paid, the team can afford higher salaries.

    from your view of what the luxury tax is I can see you need to do a little research on it. the luxury tax was put in place to keep the mega market teams from hoggin all the talent. by limiting how much a team can spend on players and fining them for surpassing that said limit it helps level the playing field for all teams. money does matter, but so does winning. a team that goes to the championship series will make much more than a team trying to sell it brand on the fact one of it's players is of Asian decent......so yes it is about money, but winning spells money.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago

    Do we have a reasonable shot at getting somebody that much better than Lin that it'll be worth setting the team back? I don't think so. If we get Cp3, then that's another story. But for a slight upgrade in a guy like Calderon(who has peaked by the way), or someone of that calibre? I definitely think that it would not be beneficial to us. I hope we draft the best guy available as no roster spot is guaranteed. Even Harden's. He can be moved to SF if we get somebody amazing at SG.

  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago I am pretty sure rockets best fan understands all that. We do discuss basketball here in a serious manner most of the time, welcome to Red94 by the way.
  • quatin says 10 months ago

    welcome to the forum :rolleyes:who cares about how much out side money lin brings in besides les and even les would move lin if it meant having a better chance to win. lin's job isn't marketing.....it's basketball. as for lin's value on the trade market.......fact: if morey finds some other team willing to sling their money around like some on this forum propose yeah we might be able to get something for lin. however it's unlikely with the new cba rules in place. lin likely won't command anything more than a late 1st rounder or 2 second rounders. you see the other teams in the league are not out to help the rockets best interest unless they are also helping themselves. NOBODY is knocking at the door asking for lin. fact: we will probably have to sweeten the deal just to get someone to take him off our hands. his contract combined with his play makes him unattractive to teams looking for point guards. YES it's possible we find a sucker.....we did it when we got t-rob...so it does happen on occasion. as for your average point guard on average pay comment...........the teams looking for PG's aren't looking for average PG's their looking for stars on average pay. every team in the league is looking to upgrade. they want max bang for the buck....average doesn't spell max bang for the buck at what lin makes.

    If money coming in doesn't matter then why does money going out (salary) matter? The only reason the team worries about the luxury tax is, because the owners don't want an unprofitable ball club. If Lin brings in more money than he is being paid, the team can afford higher salaries.

  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago By the way does anyone have that doctored footage of Lin with the Knicks dualing with Kobe because I watched that last Rockets game of the regular season and that was a different guy from the Knicks guy I think.
  • thenit says 10 months ago

    The mythical Jeremy Lin lefty finish...

    jeremy-lin-numbers-statistics-2.jpg

    Is that photoshopped?

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    thejohnnygold

    I am upset with you :lol:when you ask me to list the faults of lin , it set off a tornado. you know I don't mind a good debate, but I didn't see the backlash that was brewing. I fell right of that cliff :lol:however I guess it was a good thing because there appeared to be a lot of uncovered opinions on lin. he is truly a polarizing player. very few are neutralwhen it comes to him.I found myself trying to make others understand while bashing him I don't hate him. that he is capable enough for us to ride out his contract, but we would be better off moving him if the chance came along. in the previous post leading up to that list of his faults that's why I kept using word like fatal or crippling flaws instead of going into detail.. you know me tho I never run from a good debate :lol:

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Charlotte already has Kemba, they won't pay big bucks for another PG with future. And I'm not sure how unsettled Phoenix is with Dragic....Sacramento on the other hand could use a better point guard, for example.

    I agree sac may be in the market for a point guard.....especially since their ownership situation seems to have settled. I also agree phoenix and charlotte aren't looking. however Utah and dallas also are in the market

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Have we not seen all the articles about how much money Lin brings to the ball club just by being here?

    Any team will take Lin on a trade, unless they are heavily over the luxury tax. There's no reason $3-4 million will stop a club from adding Lin to the roster, even if just for a backup. Unless Lin starts on a downhill slide in performance from here on out. We can move Lin to just about any other team. An average point guard with average pay, that brings in a huge market.

    Moving Lin just for the sake of getting him off the team is stupid. He has trade value. Morey doesn't lose on trades. We want value back.

    welcome to the forum :rolleyes:who cares about how much out side money lin brings in besides les and even les would move lin if it meant having a better chance to win. lin's job isn't marketing.....it's basketball. as for lin's value on the trade market.......fact: if morey finds some other team willing to sling their money around like some on this forum propose yeah we might be able to get something for lin. however it's unlikely with the new cba rules in place. lin likely won't command anything more than a late 1st rounder or 2 second rounders. you see the other teams in the league are not out to help the rockets best interest unless they are also helping themselves. NOBODY is knocking at the door asking for lin. fact: we will probably have to sweeten the deal just to get someone to take him off our hands. his contract combined with his play makes him unattractive to teams looking for point guards. YES it's possible we find a sucker.....we did it when we got t-rob...so it does happen on occasion. as for your average point guard on average pay comment...........the teams looking for PG's aren't looking for average PG's their looking for stars on average pay. every team in the league is looking to upgrade. they want max bang for the buck....average doesn't spell max bang for the buck at what lin makes.

  • ale11 says 10 months ago

    There will always be teams that are willing to overpay for the next big thing. It's just a fact of life. Probably Phoenix or Charlotte. And since he's a restricted free agent, the team that has him has to match.

    Charlotte already has Kemba, they won't pay big bucks for another PG with future. And I'm not sure how unsettled Phoenix is with Dragic....Sacramento on the other hand could use a better point guard, for example.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Just some recent videos IthoughtI'd share with anyone interested:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXUKv6jzgHo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X0C9U4jP5Y

    btw there's that mythical left-hand lay-up at 2:27

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    The mythical Jeremy Lin lefty finish...

    jeremy-lin-numbers-statistics-2.jpg

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    tumblr_mmnjuuhR201rsnp3po1_500.gif

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    But but but we could get two second round picks! If we wait another year we might only get one, that's not a risk we can afford to take.

    bth_troll-face-meme.png

  • quatin says 10 months ago

    Have we not seen all the articles about how much money Lin brings to the ball club just by being here?

    Any team will take Lin on a trade, unless they are heavily over the luxury tax. There's no reason $3-4 million will stop a club from adding Lin to the roster, even if just for a backup. Unless Lin starts on a downhill slide in performance from here on out. We can move Lin to just about any other team. An average point guard with average pay, that brings in a huge market.

    Moving Lin just for the sake of getting him off the team is stupid. He has trade value. Morey doesn't lose on trades. We want value back.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    ZERO doubt though?

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago

    There will always be teams that are willing to overpay for the next big thing. It's just a fact of life. Probably Phoenix or Charlotte. And since he's a restricted free agent, the team that has him has to match.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Considering Gordon got max money, I have ZERO doubt that Bledsoe will as well.

    fc9b67211970f3835b786e3e5c6c4b9c.gif

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    1. Clippers refused to trade Bledsoe for JSmooth, what makes you think they will trade Bledsoe so easily to us unless we're giving them Harden, Parsons, or Asik?

    2. If we get Dwight, we're probably going to move Asik. That leaves us with 6-7m. If we move Lin that becomes 14-15m, and Royce White comes off the books next year making it around 17m. Ofcourse we have to minus the increases in salary for all the players still on our books next season--that leaves us with roughly 14m give or take.

    Which leads to the question: how is that cap room "all but gone"?

    I forgot to mention that in those calculations, I'm assuming we trade Asik for whoever Portland draft at 10.

    Chances are they're shopping their pick, and a starting center is what they need.http://www.blazersedge.com/2013/5/21/4354016/haynes-blazers-pick-could-be-in-play-because-veterans-want-to-win-now

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago

    Considering Gordon got max money, I have ZERO doubt that Bledsoe will as well.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    @rocketrick

    I respect that statement. and it was fun tossing the verbal ball back and forth across the net :lol:

    1.Bledsoe is a RFA after next year

    2.my thoughts on Bledsoe is we let him play out his contract next year at 2.6 mil that give us a chance to look at him b4 we need to commit any long term money to him. if he doesn't work out let him walk if he does we have his bird rights and the right to match any contract he gets offered the following year

    again it been fun, but I'm going to bed :rolleyes:

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    @rocketrick
    1.it not impossible to move lin contract just unlikely. don't forget in addition to that extra 3-4 mil they must also pay what's left of the 8.3 that is the cap hit.
    2. Bledsoe is not a FA the clippers still have him under contract for next year at 2.6 mil if we trade for him we get his bird rights and can sign him the following year to something more reasonable than what lin makes now. lets just say for the sake of argument we sign Bledsoe at 8 mil per the same thing dragic got last summer.....that's 2.6 mil for next year and 8 mil the following year for a total of 10.6 mil for the 2 year period that we will have to pay lin 20 mil........what's the better value?

    Lots of GM's and Owners out there overpay players. My gut tells me that someone will offer Bledsoe a better deal than what you are proposing. Isn't Bledsoe unrestricted after the 2013-2014 season?

    I do follow what you are saying about the math and that is a compelling argument. However, I don't think you are taking into full consideration in your argument that the Rockets only have Lin under contract for 2 more years, whereas if the Rockets traded for Bledsoe before the start of the 2013-2014 season and then signed him to a long term contract, we'd have a much longer commitment/contract for 4-5 years. I'd rather have a shorter term contract that is backloaded than a longer term contract that may be the true albatross.

    Plus there's the learning curve by swapping Lin for Bledsoe (not a true trade, but just in the sense of what would happen). For all of Lin's faults, and he certainly has them, he has played with Harden for 1 full season and has a better sense this off season what he needs to do to improve his game and be a beneficial starter/rotation player for the Rockets this upcoming season. To me, I would rather go that route than have to start the process all over again with yet another unproven PG, then have to have this argument this time next year because Bledsoe didn't pan out as you expected. One never knows what the future portends!

    It's been a blast discussing and arguing with you RBF. I hold you in high esteems. I know you want the Rockets to win it all every bit as much as I do and that goes along way with me!

    In this instance, I just can't agree with you.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Exactly, Lin does have faults as does every other NBA player out there. Nobody is perfect and has no weaknesses in their game. I'm just arguing on behalf of Lin because what you are proposing I believe would be harmful to the Rockets in the nearterm. Trading away Lin for two 2nd round draft picks, are you kidding me? If the Rockets are going to trade Lin at some point, primarily because of his salary, the Rockets will get more than just two 2nd round draft picks.

    Dumping Lin and signing Bledsoe seems somewhat intuitive FOR THIS YEAR. But then what? Bledsoe is going to likely get paid on a long term contract, probably $10- or $12- million for 4 years. Now that could be an albatross of a contract. Especially since in my opinion Bledsoe isn't a proven starting PG. Others have pointed out the times he has started for the Clippers this season, he has underperformed.

    You think Lin's contract is an albatross. You could be right if the Rockets are forced to trade him by the 2014 Trade Deadline. Otherwise, his contract really isn't so much of an albatross. Especially since there are only 2 years remaining, exactly one year longer than Royce White's contract. Now that is an albatross of a contract!
    I simply disagree with your premise that Lin's contract is an albatross. I think more than anything you are arguing that Lin's contract is the main reason to fire sale him now.............for two 2nd round draft picks!

    I agree Royce's contract is an albatross, but not much we can do about him. if there was ever an untradeable contract it would probably be his. nobody want to touch him right now.

    I am not only suggesting lin be traded for his contract. he needs to be traded because he is not a good point guard.....the contract just makes the situation worse

    getting two second rounders plus clearing his salary off the books is about all we can probably get for lin right now unless morey is able to fleece somebody. trust me nobody is beating our door down trying to get him right now

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    @rocketrick

    1.it not impossible to move lin contract just unlikely. don't forget in addition to that extra 3-4 mil they must also pay what's left of the 8.3 that is the cap hit.

    2. Bledsoe is not a FA the clippers still have him under contract for next year at 2.6 mil if we trade for him we get his bird rights and can sign him the following year to something more reasonable than what lin makes now. lets just say for the sake of argument we sign Bledsoe at 8 mil per the same thing dragic got last summer.....that's 2.6 mil for next year and 8 mil the following year for a total of 10.6 mil for the 2 year period that we will have to pay lin 20 mil........what's the better value?

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    then what's your view sense you seem intent on not exposing yourself while you attack other's views. the fact you said you only jumped in on this conversation because you felt some moralcallingto protect lin lead me to believe you were trying to be impartial since while you protect himyou admit he has faults

    Exactly, Lin does have faults as does every other NBA player out there. Nobody is perfect and has no weaknesses in their game. I'm just arguing on behalf of Lin because what you are proposing I believe would be harmful to the Rockets in the nearterm. Trading away Lin for two 2nd round draft picks, are you kidding me? If the Rockets are going to trade Lin at some point, primarily because of his salary, the Rockets will get more than just two 2nd round draft picks.

    Dumping Lin and signing Bledsoe seems somewhat intuitive FOR THIS YEAR. But then what? Bledsoe is going to likely get paid on a long term contract, probably $10- or $12- million for 4 years. Now that could be an albatross of a contract. Especially since in my opinion Bledsoe isn't a proven starting PG. Others have pointed out the times he has started for the Clippers this season, he has underperformed.

    You think Lin's contract is an albatross. You could be right if the Rockets are forced to trade him by the 2014 Trade Deadline. Otherwise, his contract really isn't so much of an albatross. Especially since there are only 2 years remaining, exactly one year longer than Royce White's contract. Now that is an albatross of a contract!
    I simply disagree with your premise that Lin's contract is an albatross. I think more than anything you are arguing that Lin's contract is the main reason to fire sale him now.............for two 2nd round draft picks!
  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    1.even if les open his check book and pays 3 mil that still leaves 3.7 mil the team lin was traded to stuck with that bill.
    2. if the rockets sign D-12 it's true they don't need a star at point guard and I myself have said so in previous post
    3. if you see beauty in lin's contract then all I can say is beauty is in the eye of the beholder

    You make it sound like it's impossible to trade away a player at the trade deadline requiring the other team to pay $3-$4 million in salary. Don't forget, they would be dumping more salary than they would be receiving if the worst were to happen and Lin is traded at the 2015 Trade Deadline scenario we've been discussing feverishly this evening. This is what happens at the Trade Deadlines and I'm surprised to be hearing this argument from someone as knowledgeable as you are about the NBA. I don't know, maybe you're just trying to find something I won't reply to and claim some sort of a small victory.

    The beauty in Lin's contract is that it is only 2 more years. If the Rockets were to sign a Bledsoe, for instance, I would assume it would be a 4 year contract in order to be competitive with the rest of the league. Bledsoe, with all his faults, will command a longer term commitment and a good chunk of money. I'd rather live with Lin's contract for at most 2 years, I have been proposing even that it could be for 1 1/2 years. Heck, I'll even go so far as to say if Lin is not #1 on the depth chart at PG and performing at a reasonably good clip (17 points, 7 assists, 2 steals, 3 turnovers per game average) then make the move at the Trade Deadline 2014. Then you probably have a more favorable argument because yes, Lin's backloaded contract would have to be dealt with.

    Unless the Rockets have the opportunity at a franchise player or two and have to move salary, I don't expect the Rockets are going to bail on Lin quite as soon as you are proposing.

    Does this make me a Lin lover? Hardly, I've just been arguing the other side of the coin. It does take two to tango.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Just exactly at what point did I ever claim to be impartial? Just wondering, because I don't recall ever going there.

    then what's your view sense you seem intent on not exposing yourself while you attack other's views. the fact you said you only jumped in on this conversation because you felt some moralcallingto protect lin lead me to believe you were trying to be impartial since while you protect himyou admit he has faults

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    OK, no problem, Leslie Alexander opens his checkbook and pays (to simplify things) $3 million of the remaining $7.5 million of Lin's salary that will be left at the Trade Deadline 2015. All of a sudden, Lin's supposed outrageous contract truly isn't that outrageous. Plus the Rockets should be able to get something reasonably decent in return for that price. Probably not a long term player, but perhaps someone at that point that could help the Rockets in their playoff push that season. At this point in time, who the heck knows what help the Rockets might require in the Spring of 2015's playoff push. And if this were to happen, the Rockets would very likely already settled on Lin's replacement as that dude would probably be starting at that point were this situation to degrade to this.

    I don't recall anyone claiming Lin is about to become a Star. If the Rockets do as you expect, sign D12, they don't need a star at PG. They will have their stars as D12 and Harden with Chandler Parsons a key 3rd component.

    Just because I and some of the others in this forum are suggesting that the Rockets allow Lin more time to develop doesn't equate to us believing Lin is going to become a star. Who knows, maybe he could of some sort, but I for one don't expect it. Just give me someone like a more developed Lin at PG and I'll be fine.

    The beauty of all this is Lin's contract is not that horrendous. Only 2 more years to go. It's not like we're stuck with a $60 million 4 years remaining contract like some of the crappy players that are out there are earning that I would never want to see join the Rockets.

    1.even if les open his check book and pays 3 mil that still leaves 3.7 mil the team lin was traded to stuck with that bill.

    2. if the rockets sign D-12 it's true they don't need a star at point guard and I myself have said so in previous post

    3. if you see beauty in lin's contract then all I can say is beauty is in the eye of the beholder

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    @rocketrick


    you know what gets me with your comments. you pick out the pieces you think you can exploit while never admitting the truthfulness of the whole statement. if you feel you have some moral duty to protect lin then you are a lin LOVER. to make that statement then claim to be impartial is contradicting yourself.I have not said anything about lin that isn't true. I gave you my view of this year and my outlook on his future. you may not agree, but you can't claim any of it to be false. if you like the man just say it. you just like me have a right to your opinion, but at the same time respect my opinion like I do yours

    Just exactly at what point did I ever claim to be impartial? Just wondering, because I don't recall ever going there.
  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago I believe you both have compelling arguments rockets best fan but I can vow for rocketrick not being a Lin lover, as you put it. You two have been pretty entertaining and informative enough, thanks for sparring you two.
  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    1. the knicks did send enough cash here with t-douglass to pay him. however the maximum amount any team can send to another team in a year is 3 mil. tony's salary fell within this range which made the deal possible
    2. les can't send enough money to pay lin's salary because of what I said above
    3 I won't be going to home depot to buy any knee pads because the likelihood of me needing forgiveness is about the same chances of one of us winning the lottery :lol:those of you waiting for lin to turn into a star don't hold your breathe.....you may pass out

    OK, no problem, Leslie Alexander opens his checkbook and pays (to simplify things) $3 million of the remaining $7.5 million of Lin's salary that will be left at the Trade Deadline 2015. All of a sudden, Lin's supposed outrageous contract truly isn't that outrageous. Plus the Rockets should be able to get something reasonably decent in return for that price. Probably not a long term player, but perhaps someone at that point that could help the Rockets in their playoff push that season. At this point in time, who the heck knows what help the Rockets might require in the Spring of 2015's playoff push. And if this were to happen, the Rockets would very likely already settled on Lin's replacement as that dude would probably be starting at that point were this situation to degrade to this.

    I don't recall anyone claiming Lin is about to become a Star. If the Rockets do as you expect, sign D12, they don't need a star at PG. They will have their stars as D12 and Harden with Chandler Parsons a key 3rd component.

    Just because I and some of the others in this forum are suggesting that the Rockets allow Lin more time to develop doesn't equate to us believing Lin is going to become a star. Who knows, maybe he could of some sort, but I for one don't expect it. Just give me someone like a more developed Lin at PG and I'll be fine.

    The beauty of all this is Lin's contract is not that horrendous. Only 2 more years to go. It's not like we're stuck with a $60 million 4 years remaining contract like some of the crappy players that are out there are earning that I would never want to see join the Rockets.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    @rocketrick

    I've been primarily defending Lin, not out there proclaiming Lin is the next greatest PG of all time. Never said that, never would. The Red94 forum has very detailed argument on both sides of the coin and it is well known some of the deficiencies of Lin's game.

    I've been responding primarily to what I term as hysterics requiring the immediate disposal of Lin and his contract.

    you know what gets me with your comments. you pick out the pieces you think you can exploit while never admitting the truthfulness of the whole statement. if you feel you have some moral duty to protect lin then you are a lin LOVER. to make that statement then claim to be impartial is contradicting yourself.I have not said anything about lin that isn't true. I gave you my view of this year and my outlook on his future. you may not agree, but you can't claim any of it to be false. if you like the man just say it. you just like me have a right to your opinion, but at the same time respect my opinion like I do yours

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    And how many times in recent years have we seen the example of a team trading a player away and absorbing some or all of their salary to boot. The Knicks paid Toney Douglass' entire salary for 2012-2013 AFTER trading him to Houston and AFTER Houston traded Douglass to Sacramento.

    If it came down to it, even you have stated on numerous occasions, Leslie Alexander is not bashful about opening up his checkbook. If push comes to push, this is what could happen. The Rockets trade away Lin at the 2015 Trade Deadline (expiring contract) and Leslie Alexander agrees to pay all or a portion of Lin's remaining salary (by the will be less than half of $15 million as the season would have been more than 1/2 way over by then.

    Just one scenario of many.

    However, my preferred scenario for Jeremy Lin is he comes back a much improved player this off-season and requires RBF to get on his knees begging for our forgiveness and mercy for being so terribly wrong with his prognosis.

    1. the knicks did send enough cash here with t-douglass to pay him. however the maximum amount any team can send to another team in a year is 3 mil. tony's salary fell within this range which made the deal possible

    2. les can't send enough money to pay lin's salary because of what I said above

    3 I won't be going to home depot to buy any knee pads because the likelihood of me needing forgiveness is about the same chances of one of us winning the lottery :lol:those of you waiting for lin to turn into a star don't hold your breathe.....you may pass out

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    I think RBF is being a little too tough, but it did seem like a bit of a fan club. maybe people had to defend lin and didn't mention the faults due to the somewhat aggressive opinion. I honestly thought people here had the opinion of lin having little to no faults.

    I've been primarily defending Lin, not out there proclaiming Lin is the next greatest PG of all time. Never said that, never would. The Red94 forum has very detailed argument on both sides of the coin and it is well known some of the deficiencies of Lin's game.

    I've been responding primarily to what I term as hysterics requiring the immediate disposal of Lin and his contract.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    You have suggested on more than one occasion recently that the Rockets should trade Lin, wait for it, to Utah for two 2nd round draft picks.

    I equate that to a fire sale.

    I don't equate just moving lin to a fire sale......perhaps you never been to a fire sell......everything goes all the way down to the curtains on the window. moving lin hardly equates to that. he is but one man on a 15 man roster.... so your point holds no weight.

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    let me tell you what's difference isabout lin's contract........lin will have a cap hit of 8.3 mil that's true. but his pay will be 15 mil.....true some team would like to have the 8.3 mil to help reduce their salary load. but having to pay an additional 6.7 mil to do it? that a bad contract in year three, especially if lin is the same player as now or has fallen into asophomore slump. no contract is unmovable in the sense that there's a sucker born every minute. but that's just what we must find.....a sucker

    And how many times in recent years have we seen the example of a team trading a player away and absorbing some or all of their salary to boot. The Knicks paid Toney Douglass' entire salary for 2012-2013 AFTER trading him to Houston and AFTER Houston traded Douglass to Sacramento.

    If it came down to it, even you have stated on numerous occasions, Leslie Alexander is not bashful about opening up his checkbook. If push comes to push, this is what could happen. The Rockets trade away Lin at the 2015 Trade Deadline (expiring contract) and Leslie Alexander agrees to pay all or a portion of Lin's remaining salary (by the will be less than half of $15 million as the season would have been more than 1/2 way over by then.

    Just one scenario of many.

    However, my preferred scenario for Jeremy Lin is he comes back a much improved player this off-season and requires RBF to get on his knees begging for our forgiveness and mercy for being so terribly wrong with his prognosis.
  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    fire sale? we are only discussing lin right.....how do you equate that to mean I'm proposing a fire sale

    You have suggested on more than one occasion recently that the Rockets should trade Lin, wait for it, to Utah for two 2nd round draft picks.

    I equate that to a fire sale.
  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    fire sale? we are only discussing lin right.....how do you equate that to mean I'm proposing a fire sale

    You have suggested on more than one occasion recently that the Rockets should trade Lin, wait for it, to Utah for two 2nd round draft picks.

    I equate that to a fire sale.
  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago

    To explain why Harden and Asik declined on a rate basis this year , look no further than this.

    Harden last year : .491 FG% / .390 3P
    Harden this eyar : .438 FG% / .368 3P

    No way and no thank you. I will look much further than that and bring the context of the offensive scheme as well as carrying a franchise which I repeat no rotation players ever did. No way Lin or Parsons could carry a team, that's a weight they will never know. Any forum member that wishes to focus on a narrow aspect of a players statistics is welcome but I would never do that. I will choose to look at everything, size it up, discuss it and then take away some opinion that is both balanced and thoughtful.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    1. Clippers refused to trade Bledsoe for JSmooth, what makes you think they will trade Bledsoe so easily to us unless we're giving them Harden, Parsons, or Asik?

    2. If we get Dwight, we're probably going to move Asik. That leaves us with 6-7m. If we move Lin that becomes 14-15m, and Royce White comes off the books next year so we're looking at around 17m cap space. Minus the increases in salary for all the players still on our books next season that leaves us with what? Roughly 15m? You don't think 15m is enough to sign Bledsoe?

    1. j-smith was an expiring contract. the clippers would be in the position of having to sign both j-smith and cp3 with griffin already on the books. that would kill them as for as the salary cap. that's why they didn't make that trade. the clipper will move Bledsoe after they sign cp3, but they want draft pick or picks and very little salary in return.

    2. if we get D-12 to presume asik is already out the door is an assumption I'm not ready to agree with first off. however just for the sake of discussion I will entertain the idea. if we trade asik we are likely to absorb salary in return. you act like everyone can be traded for draft picks when nothing could be further from the truth. if we are over the cap at the time of the trade(unless we are dealing with a team under the cap)we will have to match money in the trade so how does that open up cap room? it takes 2 to tango. if we can't find someone to just absorb salary the best we can hope for is expiring contracts which are likely to be belowfair value for asik. unlikely chanceof any of this taking place, but lets say we do find a team willing to cough up good draft picks and expiring contracts for asik......by then it time to pay other players on our team so we still eat up our cap room..............fact is we got 1 chance to get this right. so settling for plan B is not an option

  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago

    I think RBF is being a little too tough, but it did seem like a bit of a fan club. maybe people had to defend lin and didn't mention the faults due to the somewhat aggressive opinion. I honestly thought people here had the opinion of lin having little to no faults.


    There is actually a mostly quiet group on this forum that are not really big Lin fans but I don't think we really care to get into it with the "Lin could be an All Star" Lin fans who are pretty vocal. I wish Lin the best and hope he reaches his potential but I don't think he is essential to the future of the Rockets.
  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    NO it won't necessarily. it all depends on what we do this summer. if we sign D-12 our cap room is all but gone. even if we do have a possibility of moving lin at that point it's unlikely we will be able to do it without absorbing some return salary. because the teams who need a point guard will have moved on to other options by then.

    as for Bledsoe.......he makes 2.6 mil next year. if we trade for him this summer it gives us a chance to look at how he fits for a year b4 having to commit any real money to him. that's a hell of a lot less than lin's 5 mil next year and he's not going to command 15 mil on the open market so we still get a savings if we elect to keep him at that point. that's a win-win

    1. Clippers refused to trade Bledsoe for JSmooth, what makes you think they will trade Bledsoe so easily to us unless we're giving them Harden, Parsons, or Asik?

    2. If we get Dwight, we're probably going to move Asik. That leaves us with 6-7m. If we move Lin that becomes 14-15m, and Royce White comes off the books next year making it around 17m. Ofcourse we have to minus the increases in salary for all the players still on our books next season--that leaves us with roughly 14m give or take.

    Which leads to the question: how is that cap room "all but gone"?

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I'm no salary expert or anything, but I think that cap space will still be there if we trade Lin next season, and guess who's a FA next year? Your beloved Eric Bledsoe ;)

    NO it won't necessarily. it all depends on what we do this summer. if we sign D-12 our cap room is all but gone. even if we do have a possibility of moving lin at that point it's unlikely we will be able to do it without absorbing some return salary. because the teams who need a point guard will have moved on to other options by then.

    as for Bledsoe.......he makes 2.6 mil next year. if we trade for him this summer it gives us a chance to look at how he fits for a year b4 having to commit any real money to him. that's a hell of a lot less than lin's 5 mil next year and he's not going to command 15 mil on the open market so we still get a savings if we elect to keep him at that point. that's a win-win

  • RollingWave says 10 months ago

    To explain why Harden and Asik declined on a rate basis this year , look no further than this.

    Harden last year : .491 FG% / .390 3P

    Harden this eyar : .438 FG% / .368 3P

    The difference here is that he took 4.5 shots more per 36 min this year, which is why he scored a lot more, he also drew more fouls, though I need to look further into how it stacks up in terms of fouls per attempt. it's probably higher, but by only a little.

    WinShare is effected by the team to an extend, but the question of how it interacts remains to be answered since it works both ways, Lebron's last 3 year inClevelandis notnoticeablydifferent from his 3 year average in Miami for example.

    As for Asik, there is a stronger case to be made that decline was more of a team thing than a personal thing, since aside from block shots he's gone up across the board on a rate basis and in some case pretty dramatically, the main difference being that the Bulls with him on the court last year was insanely awesome defensively . while this year it's merely very good on the Rockets, I think this can more realistically be chalk to the supporting cast than Asik himself.

    But, in the case of Harden, the difference in this change shouldn't be hard to see, when you take a lot more shots, it's likely that you'll take more bad shots as well, and anyone who's not blind should see that James Harden took plenty of bad shots this year. and the matter that going all out 25 min with a significant interval of rest is doable, going all out 40 min with almost no rest is usually not.

    Number is not the end all , especially in basketball where almost nothing except free throw is really an event in isolation, but it has made giant strides in recent decades, and is certainly far better of a subjective point of hanging the argument on then what youperceiveto be certain player's mental state at least.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I'm no salary expert or anything, but I think that cap space will still be there if we trade Lin next season, and guess who's a FA next year? Your beloved Eric Bledsoe ;)

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Okay, good discussion.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I think RBF is being a little too tough, but it did seem like a bit of a fan club. maybe people had to defend lin and didn't mention the faults due to the somewhat aggressive opinion. I honestly thought people here had the opinion of lin having little to no faults.

    true I may seem a little harsh, but there is clearly a love fest going on with this player for some. they have lost their ability to look at him objectively

    Okay, everyone is aware of his faults. Thanks for reminding us.. over, and over, and over :P

    I just don't see why you're so adamant when we're talking about getting a second round pick in return, and that second round pick should still be on the table if we trade him a year from now.

    because his contract is eating up unnecessary cap room that could be better spent on his replacement

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Okay, everyone is aware of his faults. Thanks for reminding us.. over, and over, and over :P

    It's just strange because you seem so adamant.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Why can't you wait one more year before giving up on him? What's the worst that could happen, we get a return of only one secondthe advround draft pick instead of two?.

    I have no problem with keeping lin if that's what the rockets elect to do. but I am also not against him being traded if the rockets are able to move him to open more cap room. I am simply pointing out the advantages of moving him now.

  • miketheodio says 10 months ago

    I think RBF is being a little too tough, but it did seem like a bit of a fan club. maybe people had to defend lin and didn't mention the faults due to the somewhat aggressive opinion. I honestly thought people here had the opinion of lin having little to no faults.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Why can't you wait one more year before giving up on him? What's the worst that could happen, we get a return of only one second round draft pick instead of two?.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Morey is a sucker?

    if you aren't going to read everything then it's not wise to comment on anything. said attempt to put words in my mouth

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    edit: double post

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Sounds to me that RBF is endorsing a fire sale to add more cap room for D12

    fire sale? we are only discussing lin right.....how do you equate that to mean I'm proposing a fire sale

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    If that is true, then you are insinuating that Morey is an idiot for signing Lin to begin with.

    perhaps if you read the whole thread you would have seen this from above

    I like morey's moves most of the time too. also I still believe it was a good move to go after lin once it appeared we were going the enter the year without a point guard on the roster. morey would be the first to admit every move doesn't work out as planed, you win some you loose some. it's the nature of the game.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Morey is a sucker?

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I wouldn't necessarily call an expiring contract unmovable. Note to self, see one Kevin Martin and an expiring contract about double of what Lin's would be Season 3.

    let me tell you what's difference isabout lin's contract........lin will have a cap hit of 8.3 mil that's true. but his pay will be 15 mil.....true some team would like to have the 8.3 mil to help reduce their salary load. but having to pay an additional 6.7 mil to do it? that a bad contract in year three, especially if lin is the same player as now or has fallen into asophomore slump. no contract is unmovable in the sense that there's a sucker born every minute. but that's just what we must find.....a sucker

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    tumblr_mdjtbmkjx61rp7g3w.gif

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    Oh no, two second rounders, sell him now before it's too late!!!

    Sounds to me that RBF is endorsing a fire sale to add more cap room for D12
  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    lin's value is low right now. we would be lucky to get 2 second rounders.....problem is if he doesn't improve that stated value will be even lower as the season progresses considering his contract is only going up

    If that is true, then you are insinuating that Morey is an idiot for signing Lin to begin with.
  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    @wph342711
    I agree this thing really started over his contract and his perceived value in relationship to that contract. however some are so in love withlin that they refuse to even consider that his contract may become an anvil to the rockets if he is unable to improve and that itmay be better to move him now rather than wait till year 3 when his contract will be unmovable.

    I wouldn't necessarily call an expiring contract unmovable. Note to self, see one Kevin Martin and an expiring contract about double of what Lin's would be Season 3.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Oh no, two second rounders, sell him now before it's too late!!!

    :lol: :lol:you may be making an attempt to be sarcastic. but it's still funny

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Oh no, two second rounders, sell him now before it's too late!!!

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    What do you expect to get for Lin if we move him now?

    lin's value is low right now. we would be lucky to get 2 second rounders.....problem is if he doesn't improve that stated value will be even lower as the season progresses considering his contract is only going up

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    The difference between us and you is that you've already made up your mind, and that's fine. But to bash us for waiting to call Lin a bust until next year is kind of immature. Sometimes I think that Asik will never learn how to catch the ball but I still have hope

    correct my mind is made up. just becauseI propose the need to trade him it caused a fire storm. I don't share your optimistic view. I didn't bashyou. I bash lin andall the people who refuse to see him for what he is.......average with a lot of faults. I also don't think we need another year to predict how this story ends, but I didn't bash anyone for that. I just said I disagree. if you perceived yourself be bashed then you are probably a lin lover who refuses tocome in from the fantasy world and admit what the man is

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    What do you expect to get for Lin if we move him now?

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    @wph342711

    I agree this thing really started over his contract and his perceived value in relationship to that contract. however some are so in love withlin that they refuse to even consider that his contract may become an anvil to the rockets if he is unable to improve and that itmay be better to move him now rather than wait till year 3 when his contract will be unmovable.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Yeah, I think Lin has flaws, but to have to agree that giving up on him after one year is silly (especially after how much he improved). I like it when Morey sells high like he did with Brooks and Lowry, but selling Lin now would be selling low and I don't like that idea at all.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago The difference between us and you is that you've already made up your mind, and that's fine. But to bash us for waiting to call Lin a bust until next year is kind of immature. Sometimes I think that Asik will never learn how to catch the ball but I still have hope
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Yeah I liked Carl Landry, he was packaged for Kevin Martin who I also liked. I have rarely ever been unhappy with any of Morey's moves.

    I like morey's moves most of the time too. also I still believe it was a good move to go after lin once it appeared we were going the enter the year without a point guard on the roster. morey would be the first to admit every move doesn't work out as planed, you win some you loose some. it's the nature of the game.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    @rocketrick

    even tho I disagree with your view of lin at least you admit the man has faults. some here fail to come to grips with that. we don't share the same outlook but at least you aren't looking at the situation with the rose colored glasses. I agree with most of what you said. just to clear up how I feel about lin ...............lin is a average to slightly below average player. how he progresses from this point will unmask his true potential. I'm not as optimistic about the outcome as most here, but if we keep him will not be slipping into depression either.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Yeah I liked Carl Landry, he was packaged for Kevin Martin who I also liked. I have rarely ever been unhappy with any of Morey's moves. I honestly think I can only think of one move he made that I thought was bad--that's more than you can say for most GM's.

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    I think everyone here has shared their perspective on Lin and there's not much more to add. People don't always agree but try not to judge because it can get ugly before it gets beautiful. Good discussion.

    I think some of us are a bit more patient than others. I want to win just as bad as the next guy. Yet I understand this takes time. The NBA is a blast to follow because things do change so much. Yet change is not always for the better. Sometimes we don't realize what we had until we lost him. Carl Landry comes to mind. He would have been a perfect fit at PF for this past season's Rockets team. Next year, maybe not so much. Players change, rosters change, coaches change and that's what makes the NBA so enjoyable to follow!
  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I think everyone here has shared their perspective on Lin and there's not much more to add. People don't always agree but try not to judge because it can get ugly before it gets beautiful. Good discussion.

  • wph342711 says 10 months ago

    There's no point in debating this anymore. People have differing opinions on Jeremy's future on the team, and that's that. I think he can be an above average starting pg. RBF says he can't (although it's hard to track RBF'sview on him. at one point Jeremy wasjust painfully average, but in his latest post RBF says he's a longroad fromanything approaching decent, so i'm not sure where RBF actually lies.)

    It's completely fruitless to go back and forth when people are so esconced in their subjective viewpoints that they don'treally entertain objective numbers. RBF says there is nothing we can say or show him to change his opinion, so why do we keep trying? I actually agree with the flaws he points out -Jeremydoesn't finish left, his aggressiveness is inconsistent, etc).But IMOhis flawsare notincurable to the point that Jeremy will stop developing as a player (actually he cut down on the jump passing as the season went on, for example). In my mind, despite those flaws he isalready an average player (and yes, overpaid at the moment)

    It is undisputed that Jeremy's numbers improved through the course of the year. Importantly, his shooting % improved greatly - he actually shot 38% from 3the second half the season, the same percentage patrick beverly shot during that same time span who, for whatever reason, has been accepted as an indisputably better shooter than Jeremy.

    RBF says Jeremy's numbers don't matter enoughbecause visually he isn't improving.Ok, fine that's his opinion that is based in pointing out real flaws (I contend, overstating the importance and insurmountability of those flaws). But I'm not sure where we go from here. This is why I poked fun at the use of the term 'eye test' because it's such a non-starter that doesn't facilitate conversation.

    I'm not saying stats are everything. Don't think I ever said that. But clearly they inform what we are looking atand can help disabuse us of what we are seeing. In the end we win games if we score more points than the other team - not if RBF or anyone else's eyes are sufficiently titillated. You don't get docked for the # of jump passes you make in a game. Of course what RBF points to are real flaws, but those flaws are only valuable insofar as they are predictors of future success. But If he's averaging 17 and 7 per 36 after the all star break in spite of those flaws, isn't that a good sign??? Isn't it a good thing that we can point to tangible holes in hisgame that can be improved (some easier to improve than others, of course) and say wow he improved statistically as the season went on, as he recovered from an injury, as he became more comfortable in his role on a newteam, andas he completed his first season as a starter?

    So if he's putting up numbers he did as the season went on,I probably won't mind if he jump passes once or twice during the game.But hey, what do I know, I've only been watching basketball since 1989, so I guess that means I know nothing...

    One last thing - I think we all got bogged down in this back and forth on Jeremy's basketball abilities that we got away from what RBF's true point was - right now, he's overpaid (maybe he can justify his contract but RBF is doubtful) and not much better than Beverley if at all, so we shouldn't be shy on trading him for cap flexibility, or if it helps facilitate a homerun trade for an established star. Completely agree in theory becauseJeremy has done nothing to show that he's a building block. If we could be assured in getting a young solid starting pg at a cheaper price, yea lets dump Jeremy to the Jazz for 2 2nd round picks and 1,000 copies of the biography of Brigham Young. I just don't think a) Beverly is who we want starting at pg for the future; and b) not sure where else we can get this replacement (like i said, don't think bledsoe is attainable, he's due for a big pay raise just bc he's moving to his second contract, and don't think he has more potential than jeremy). That's why I don't think we need to cut the cord on Jeremy right now - he's not such a doomed player that we should just salary dump him for the sake of doing so. To me he's average, slightly below average starter (a bit of a misnomer since the pg position is so good right now). Don't know the exact number, but the average starter in the NBA doesn't make much less than $8M a year. To me, I think he can develop to an important part of our future contending team - that in of itself is worth it to me to hang on for at least another year before we shop him aggressively just for the sake of doing so. RBF is right if he doesn't improve next year, obviously his value is worsened. But then it's just one more year at 8.3M against the cap, and I don't think we have a 2 year window to win the championship anyway. So on balance, Ithink enough of Jeremy to say we give him one more year before moving him just to move him.

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    5.parker may be the only elite pg, but all of the others are better than lin. even chalmers plays within Miami's concept better. he may not have lin's stats, but provides more of what his team needs in his role than lin in his. when I look a bev I see a player who has limitation, but the ability to get better. he is already better than lin (IMO) he is someone who I feel the odds would be good on(if I were a betting man)improving over the summer to the point of being an asset rather than someone we need to cover up like lin.
    CAN B6.the rockets owe lin a lot of money.....too much to be sitting on the pine. either he pans out to be starter material or hit the road.

    My grandmother could play PG for the Miami Heat and appear to "play within Miami's concept" better than apparently RBF believes Lin plays within Houston's concept. Being PG of the Miami Heat has got to be one of the dream jobs available--the hardest part is deciding who to pass the ball to, LeBron, D-Wade, Bosh, Ray Allen, et al.

    So comparing Lin to Chalmers has absolutely no credence in my book.

    It's funny that RBF mentions that Beverly has "limitations but the ability to get better". Because I believe that sums it up in a nutshell as to exactly what those of us who support Lin believe about Lin.

    Yet RBF is not willing to give Lin the benefit of the doubt and one full off-season to improve his game.

    If Lin was some stupid punk that spent all summer partying, then yes, I would fully support RBF's position that the Rockets need to move on with another PG. However, that could not be further from the case!

    Then RBF has the audacity to claim he "likes the kid (Lin)" then proceeds with bashing him to pieces.

    In the end, it doesn't matter. Lin will be in Houston as long as he proves to be worthy of playing a key role in the rotation, be that as a starter or a 6th man. I believe he is better suited as the starter.

    And if George Hill and Beno Udrih and Devin Harris so great (according to RBF, better than Lin), then why aren't they able to stick with the same team for a significant period of time? I understand Lin has also changed rosters from Golden State (very little opportunity) to Houston for a short period of time (very little opportunity and the problem that Flynn was on the roster and a more tradeable piece at the time), then to NY for last year's Linsanity then back to Houston.

    My point being I don't believe any of these 3 are significant upgrades vis-à-vis Lin. And all of them make pretty much the same money. So claiming Lin is "significantly overpaid" as RBF asserts, is again just a falsehood in my opinion.

    That's all that any of us have on this subject, just our opinions. I'll never be able to convert RBF to my point of view and vice-versa. However, I try my best to not take things quite so personally in my arguments. I'm sorry if I have ever crossed the line, I don't believe I ever have.

    No matter which side of the argument anyone is on in regards to Lin, Coach McHale, D12 possibly joining the Rockets---all of us want the same thing, for the Rockets to have success and bring back the NBA Finals Trophy to Houston!
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I find it funny that you want to bash everybody that likes Lin but believe that he needs work. You, and only you, are the extremist. This isn't a JLin fan site. We're objective. There's a link to a Jlin hate site I you want to bash him.

    it appears from your comment that you haven't been reading this thread. I'm bashing the people who refuse to admit the kid has faults. the level of objectivity is debatable. besides I didn't want to bash lin in the first place, but the rattle of those who will not admit the man is less than perfecthas spurred me to do so. I'm not a lin hater or lover. if the rocket decide to keep him it won't be the end of the world and if they decide to trade him it won't be the end of the world either. I'm no extremist when it comes to lin, but it seems that any time someone is critical of him they are attacked.....I'm not down for being attacked. if you can't stand to see others critical of your view then I recommend you stop posting.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago I find it funny that you want to bash everybody that likes Lin but believe that he needs work. You, and only you, are the extremist. This isn't a JLin fan site. We're objective. There's a link to a Jlin hate site I you want to bash him.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    I know you guys are working it out, but let's keep it on subject. Think of how sad it would make Jeremy to know that he is the reason for negative feelings in the world. It certainly isn't going to help his game--and that's all we want...a nice right to left crossover with a lefty finish high off the glass over the outstretched arm of the opposing center. But we can't have that if Jeremy knows that he's causing people to argue. So, let's keep it above board so Jeremy can practice that crossover in peace. Chuck Norris approves...

    3879-animated_gif-chuck_norris-dodgeball

    I bet if you ask lin how he did this first year he would give you my assessment if he was being honest. I think he understands his short coming this year unlike some of his fans who seem to live in a j-lin can do no wrong fantasy world. he was critical of his own play in his exit interviews and talked about the need to hit the gym and improve...............I like the attitude. but wanting to improve and having the capability to improve are too different things. j-lin talent level limits his ceiling to me. how long willit take for lin to reach his ceiling? lin is at least 2-3 years from being as asset instead of and anvil. problem is his contract is only 2 years long at more money than he should be making. I would like to be as optimistic as the rest of you, but I don't see it(the ability to improve). every nba player goes into the summer wanting to improve their game if they care anything about the game at all. if it was as easy as just saying it everyone would do it, but it's not that easy. lin has a long road in front of him to become anything approaching decent. I know some of you were critical of McHale's handling of lin this year.....and while my view of McHale has softened from wanting him fired to havinghope he can figure it out, I do agree with how he handled lin. this kid deserved a short leash because he's not that good.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    Here are the top 10 salary makers in the NBA as of 2012-13 (salary cap numbers):

    Chris Paul - $18 million

    Deron Williams - $17.2

    Derrick Rose - $16

    Russell Westbrook - $13.7

    Tony Parker - $12.5 million

    Jose Calderon - $11 million

    Rajon Rondo - $11 million

    Monta Ellis - $ 11 million

    Steve Nash - $8.9 million

    Jameer Nelson - $8.6 million

    Rodney Stuckey - $8.5 million

    Devin Harris - $8.5 million

    Jeremy Lin - $8.4 million

    George Hill - $8 million

    Mike Conley - $7.5 million

    Goran Dragic - $7.5 million

    Beno Udrih - $7.4 million

    These are the 2012-2013 salaries of the top paid point guards by salary cap numbers according to ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nba/salaries). The $10 million per season would not get the Rockets any of the elite point guards (and I'm working with your skewed salary math). Virtually all of the elite point guards are either making $12.5 million plus per season or are still on their rookie contracts (such as Kyrie Irving and to a lesser extent Lillard). Chris Paul probably makes that money on endorsements alone.

    You are over-estimating how much $20 million over two seasons can actually afford you. The "elite" players are all max contract players, and can make nearly $20 million in one season; Paul can make $30 million alone in the 5th year of his contract.

    I find it similar to a person wanting a Bentley and believing they can pay $80,000 to get a brand new one. Don't get me wrong, $80,000 is a lot of money, but it's not going to get you a Bentley.

    The best way to get an elite point guard is either by drafting one and hoping you hit the jackpot, or offering the max salary to an established one. Bledsoe is still an unknown commodity and is not a guarantee to be a success; as I pointed out before, he had a 12 game stint as starter with the Clippers last season, and produced average numbers while the team went 6-6.

    I think the most interesting part of this is actually looking at it and realizing what injuries do to the landscape each year. Just look at the top 10 PG's up there...Only Calderon, Westbrook (Bev's collision doesn't count against him), and Parker have been able to remain healthy throughout their careers--mostly. The others miss substantial time, are forever diminished, or both. It's actually sad from the fan's perspective.

    My point is that the landscape of who is the best player at any position changes from year to year due to aging, injury, experience, system, and on and on. With luck, Jeremy can stay healthy and keep getting experience. Just those two factors alone can move him into the top ten even if it's only because none of the others can stay healthy....not that I want things to go that way.

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    I know you guys are working it out, but let's keep it on subject. Think of how sad it would make Jeremy to know that he is the reason for negative feelings in the world. It certainly isn't going to help his game--and that's all we want...a nice right to left crossover with a lefty finish high off the glass over the outstretched arm of the opposing center. But we can't have that if Jeremy knows that he's causing people to argue. So, let's keep it above board so Jeremy can practice that crossover in peace. Chuck Norris approves...

    3879-animated_gif-chuck_norris-dodgeball

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    1. No one has said that Lin is even a great PG not even me, we disagree on that he is a decent one with potential to be a good one. Thats fine, but the way you bunch up all your facts and construct it as real just boggles me.

    2. His cap hit has been reitterated by me and you go off on a rant that you can eat well, pay your bills and basically say that we have no life because of the potential roster changes in our favorite team will disrupt our life is just flawed and rude. You were the one who tried to take something out of context and then later defends in it with a baseless rant on people's private life interlinking with the rockets.

    3. I still think you don't mean any ill and that we are just on different sides of it and I still respect you and find you entertaining.

    1. to say lin is a great pg is fantasy. NO.... none of you will go there for fear of looking foolish based on the facts. however you all talk him up as if you believe this idea

    2. this comment was aimed at the comment that lin is gonna be here so I might as well get use to it. like I'm going to fall apart if the rockets keep him. I keep telling you all I don't hate him. lin has done nothing to me. I simply think our money can be better spent. that's the part of the argument I don't think the rest of you are absorbing.

    3.I offer a apology to you also if you were offended. I didn't mean it in the context manmythlegend took it, but I can see how it could be taken as offensive ....so I'm sorry

    4.if lin improves dramatically over the summer yes he could become and assets to this team.....but you are right I am not optimistic on the odds

    5.parker may be the only elite pg, but all of the others are better than lin. even chalmers plays within Miami's concept better. he may not have lin's stats, but provides more of what his team needs in his role than lin in his. when I look a bev I see a player who has limitation, but the ability to get better. he is already better than lin (IMO) he is someone who I feel the odds would be good on(if I were a betting man)improving over the summer to the point of being an asset rather than someone we need to cover up like lin.

    6.the rockets owe lin a lot of money.....too much to be sitting on the pine. either he pans out to be starter material or hit the road.

    in conclusion lin will never be anything above serviceable. 20 mil (16.6 cap hit) is to much to pay for serviceable. again my point.......OUR MONEY CAN BE BETTER SPENT.

  • miketheodio says 10 months ago

    These are probably the two most common and unfair criticisms that Lin gets.

    1. He actually drives left alot, he just doesn't finish with his left hand when he does.

    4. Lin has trouble guarding the Westbrook's and Parker's of the league, but the reality is that pretty much everyone (including Chris Paul and Rondo) have trouble guarding those guys.

    I think it was hyperbole, but the issue is he is easily deterred by defenses when he goes left.

  • thenit says 10 months ago

    4. I out him in the 15-20 range and you put him probably around bottom 5 of starters. Which is fine, so he is either adequate pay in my opinion and overpaid in yours. I believe if he improves on a few of your stated flaws he can move up to around the 10spot or just outside the top 10.

    5. Look at the final four PG's in this years playoffs. You have Chalmers, Parker, Hill and Conley. Parker is the only "elite" PG. Hill and Conley are around the 10 spot and Chalmers is average IMO. It shows that you don't need a great PG to win it also base this on bandwagon hitchhiker Fisher to win. I'll be honest I even think we can win a championship with just Bev with the right pieces but that Lin brings more to the table offensively and Bev is fairly unknown factor in terms of as a starter as well is Lin (1 full season). Bev did well in the playoffs, but small sample size and not playing against Westbrook makes him an unknown commodity but I think he can be a starter if he doesn't have to be a playmaker i.e Fisher but more athletic and better defensively.

    6. I think the tandem of Bev and Lin is a good one and the off season will let the coaching staff know who should start.

  • thenit says 10 months ago

    1. No one has said that Lin is even a great PG not even me, we disagree on that he is a decent one with potential to be a good one. Thats fine, but the way you bunch up all your facts and construct it as real just boggles me.

    2. His cap hit has been reitterated by me and you go off on a rant that you can eat well, pay your bills and basically say that we have no life because of the potential roster changes in our favorite team will disrupt our life is just flawed and rude. You were the one who tried to take something out of context and then later defends in it with a baseless rant on people's private life interlinking with the rockets.

    3. I still think you don't mean any ill and that we are just on different sides of it and I still respect you and find you entertaining.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    After this statement, I will be done discussing this, or any other subject, with RBF:

    You, I or anyone else don't determine who deserves to be paid what in professional sports. That's determined by the market and the millionaire/billionaires paying their salary. In my opinion, every single athlete is overpaid, relative to people that actually do meaningful work in this world.

    I take particular exception to you suggestion that I am talking "out of the other end". I may disagree with your views and the ways you choose to defend/support them, I'm not stating that you or anyone else who disagrees with me as saying they are, basically, full of rectal waste. I've respected your point of views, up until the moment I read that.

    sorry for the other end comment. maybe that was a little over the line in regards to you. if you don't want to discuss further I understand but I meant no harm. it was an illustration of how unaware of lin's faults you others seem to be. I don't mind people who discuss the facts, but to treat the man like he is the next coming of nash is unrealistic. that was the idea behind the comment

  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago

    After this statement, I will be done discussing this, or any other subject, with RBF:

    You, I or anyone else don't determine who deserves to be paid what in professional sports. That's determined by the market and the millionaire/billionaires paying their salary. In my opinion, every single athlete is overpaid, relative to people that actually do meaningful work in this world.

    I take particular exception to you suggestion that I am talking "out of the other end". I may disagree with your views and the ways you choose to defend/support them, I'm not stating that you or anyone else who disagrees with me as saying they are, basically, full of rectal waste. I've respected your point of views, up until the moment I read that.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    thenit/manmythlegend/2016/thwjohnnygold/Richards

    JG I will get to your comments in a second, but first the others. I told you guys I don't hate lin. I have explain why lin is coming up short of earning his contract. if you all are ok with average play hurray for you. I am not. I know very well how lin's money is broke down 2016. you haven't shed any light of the subject that wasn't already there. manmythlegend every one of those PG's you list except nash, udrih and harris are better than lin. and even harris and udrih are debatable.so why should he be making money on par with them? lin is not a top 15 or 20 pg. he doesn't deserve to be paid like one. I told you everybody has excuses so I don't want to hear them because they have no credibility in my book. I'm trying not to bash the kid, but fact is I didn't even talk about the turnovers and lack of tuffness lin has. this player has to many shortcoming to be even considered average. if you want to have a love fest with him go right ahead. but I won't be slipping on any rose colored glasses when I look at him. in addition all of you who think I will be crying in my frosted flakes because lin is here for the long haul....need to get a grip on reality. the rockets don't sendany checks to my house. my bills will be paid and I will continue to eat well whether lin is hear or not. if your world is so small that your favorite sports teams roster affects your quality of life you need to expand you horizon because your focus has become so shallow that you are in danger of slipping into la la land :lol:

    ok JG your turn :lol: at least you put up a reasonable response discussing the facts. the others are talking maybe out of the other end :lol:lin may very well resolve some of the issues I listed. however I am not as optimistic about his ability to overcome these faults as you are. can we survive with lin on the roster.....sure... especially if we sign D-12 which I am confident we will. however is that money being well spent? not in my opinion. we have better options to spend the 16.6 mil that will count against our cap over the next 2 years. worse case we ride lin's contract out and let him walk is not a major disaster. lin is capable enough to hang on to superman's cape for the ride. I told all of you I don't hate the man, but don't pitch him to me like he is the next coming of nash. call him out for what he is.....a slightly below average point guard. there is a reason bev is slowly eating into lin's minutes. right now he is a better player. can that change?..........maybe, but the odds are against it (IMO)

  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago

    CP3 isn't leaving LA; the Clips fired Del Negro, and I'm sure it is with the condition that CP3 will have a heavy influence of who becomes the next head coach if he re-signs. He has legitimate big men who can go get his alley oops and finish inside. And he has those snazzy State Farm commercials with his "twin" brother Cliff; I don't think he wants to be separated again from his long lost brother.

    The thing that worries me about all the media buzz about Houston being a potential destination for D12 and CP3 makes me concerned a little bit about whether or not that is being fed by those players' respective handlers in order for their guys to generate some leverage against the LA teams. Dallas is often spoken of as a hot free agent destination, yet I can't think of a big time free agent that has signed there in the last decade.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Bimathug is on Rocketscast Live is talking about the highly unlikely scenario that we would sign both Dwight and Cp3, but if it happens this is probably who it would go down:

    1. We sign Dwight using our cap space (to do this we have to dump T-Rob somewhere)

    2. We talk to the Clippers about a sign and trade for Cp3--in this SnT we give up Lin, Asik, and more (more could be Royce White)

    3. And Chris Paul (and/or Dwight) would have to take a pay cut

    This is the only way I see Lin going anywhere, and it's extremely unlikely for multiple reasons, the only reason Clippers would do this is if they're convinced Cp3 will sign somewhere else anyway.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Remember how many people thought the contract the Grizzlies gave Conley was crazy?

    Mike Conley??? Are you sure it wasn't 5 million for 45 years? RT @FRancium34: ESPN reports Conley gets 5 year 45M extension.

    1:39 AM - 2 Nov 2010

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9261768/nba-trade-value-part-3

    Just saying.

    And when is the last time Morey ever gave anyone an undeserved contract? Does Morey really deserve the lack of trust some of us are showing in him?

  • Richards says 10 months ago

    Some has issue with Lin's 8 mil avg salary and productions he offer. We can't just think basketball only when it comes to Lin.

    Well known in Houston circle thatAlexander asked Morey to signed Jeremy Lin. Don't know much about his business plan though.

    Sorry for Lin haters, Lin won't go anywhere as long as he is aserviceablePG. Even if (for God sake) we landed CP3, Lin will be tried as a sixth man before cutting him.

  • Ken Yang says 10 months ago

    Thank a lots!!

    Expecting to your grading on J.Lin !

  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    1. lin can not dribble with both hands. no ability to drive left. makes him easier to guard

    2. far to often lin is able to get to the paint but doesn't know what to do with the ball

    3.lin leaves his feet to make passes....this is fatal....this must be stopped

    4.lin has trouble staying in front of small quick guard......and the nba is loaded with them. some believe his defense is ok.......I don't

    5.lin is a streak shooter....more oftencold than hot

    will that get you started? :lol:I'm prepared to defend each point. you see I don't have rose colored glasses on when it comes to lin. I watched him very closely this year and while he did marginally improve linsanity was a fluke. excuses are like buttholes.... everybody got one. fact is for the 20 mil he will be paid over the next 2 years his skills come up way way short of his paycheck

    A lot of this has already been addressed to some degree. I think your assessment of his flaws is mostly fair.

    Let's say he overcomes the first three on the list--things I think a little coaching and plenty of time in the gym will fix. Further, let's call #4 a wash since, like others have said, nobody is shutting those guys down. As for #5, unless your name is Lebron or Durant you are probably a streak shooter....that's just the way of it. Lin's averages were respectable and showed improvement throughout the season...Let's say he bumps his fg% up to 49% and his 3pt% to 39% (roughly 10% gains in each). Would that be enough to change your stance on him?

    I ask this because I think all of those shifts are reasonable and feasible. They are not guaranteed and Lin could just as well experience a "sophomore slump" in his second full season and net a -10% shift in those categories.

    Still, if he makes the changes listed above, what would you think about him and his $8.3M?

    I can tell you, from my perspective, if those things happen (and I think they will) we will be talking about whether Lin is a top 5 PG all season long. Also, we will raise Morey up even higher on his already towering pedestal. Heck, even McHale might get some love for "developing" his players. It's the trifecta!

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Do you guys realize that on the salary books Jeremy Lin's contract is 8m/8m/8m? If New York matched Lin then it would be 5m/5m/15m for New York, that's why it's called a poison pill contract, but for any other team it's 8m/8m/8m.

    This has actually been mentioned by JD and Rocketrick and several other people here, but if that's not good enough just look at the hoopsworld websiteor read below:

    Houston Rockets offered identical contracts to Knicks guard Jeremy Lin and Chicago Bulls forward/center Omer Asik. They deals will pay roughly $5 million in years one and two and $15 million in year three. For the Rockets, those deals will count as roughly $8.3 million contracts each year, for cap and tax purposes. If the Knicks opted to match, Lin's deal would count at its actual value. That $15 million cap hit - combined with the contracts of Amar'e Stoudemire, Carmelo Anthony and Tyson Chandler - would have come with a staggering luxury tax bill.

    http://www.denverstiffs.com/2012/7/6/3141613/explaining-the-nba-poison-pill-contracts-of-omer-asik-others

  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago

    20 mil in my book should be able to buy a point guard in the top ten of the league.20 mil is a lot to spend at that position.....dragic sign with phoenix for 8 mil per last summer and he is light years better than lin. I don't think lin is capable of ever being as good as dragic. that makes his contract an anvil. YES the guy is likeable. but he can't play very well. every time I see bev go on the floor I see a player who can improve enough to be a force.....I don't see that in lin. over the course of next year bev should take lin's job (IMO). you can root for lin all you want.....I'm rooting for him too because his success is our success. however I don't see the tools necessary in the tool bag lin is carrying

    Here are the top 10 salary makers in the NBA as of 2012-13 (salary cap numbers):

    Chris Paul - $18 million

    Deron Williams - $17.2

    Derrick Rose - $16

    Russell Westbrook - $13.7

    Tony Parker - $12.5 million

    Jose Calderon - $11 million

    Rajon Rondo - $11 million

    Monta Ellis - $ 11 million

    Steve Nash - $8.9 million

    Jameer Nelson - $8.6 million

    Rodney Stuckey - $8.5 million

    Devin Harris - $8.5 million

    Jeremy Lin - $8.4 million

    George Hill - $8 million

    Mike Conley - $7.5 million

    Goran Dragic - $7.5 million

    Beno Udrih - $7.4 million

    These are the 2012-2013 salaries of the top paid point guards by salary cap numbers according to ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nba/salaries). The $10 million per season would not get the Rockets any of the elite point guards (and I'm working with your skewed salary math). Virtually all of the elite point guards are either making $12.5 million plus per season or are still on their rookie contracts (such as Kyrie Irving and to a lesser extent Lillard). Chris Paul probably makes that money on endorsements alone.

    You are over-estimating how much $20 million over two seasons can actually afford you. The "elite" players are all max contract players, and can make nearly $20 million in one season; Paul can make $30 million alone in the 5th year of his contract.

    I find it similar to a person wanting a Bentley and believing they can pay $80,000 to get a brand new one. Don't get me wrong, $80,000 is a lot of money, but it's not going to get you a Bentley.

    The best way to get an elite point guard is either by drafting one and hoping you hit the jackpot, or offering the max salary to an established one. Bledsoe is still an unknown commodity and is not a guarantee to be a success; as I pointed out before, he had a 12 game stint as starter with the Clippers last season, and produced average numbers while the team went 6-6.

  • thenit says 10 months ago

    20 mil in my book should be able to buy a point guard in the top ten of the league.20 mil is a lot to spend at that position.....dragic sign with phoenix for 8 mil per last summer and he is light years better than lin. I don't think lin is capable of ever being as good as dragic. that makes his contract an anvil. YES the guy is likeable. but he can't play very well. every time I see bev go on the floor I see a player who can improve enough to be a force.....I don't see that in lin. over the course of next year bev should take lin's job (IMO). you can root for lin all you want.....I'm rooting for him too because his success is our success. however I don't see the tools necessary in the tool bag lin is carrying

    Ok this just annoys me when you take facts out of context. Yes Lin is due 20 million for the next to season but its not crippling to our salary issues if your starting PG is making 8.3 a year which is average. Its like Fox News trying to bury obama no matter what and thats what you are trying to do with Lin's salary. Yes at the moment dragic is the better player at the same salary, and might be for the rest of their careers. Like you said we have different opinions on their ceiling and the depth of Lin's flaws, but stop bringing up the salary its just false fact not telling the truth. His cap hit is 8.3 and thats all that matters to the GM and Fans. Only guy who it should matter to is Les who writes the check. Since Lin probably brings in more money than he makes to Les he covered his ass on the financial issue.

    If we find a better upgrade or the same player at a cheaper price, then we should go for it. But as we stated there aren't many options. THe only 2 you mentioned: Calderon terrible fit and is not going to get better and will make around 10-12 a year. Bledsoe will be cheap this year, if we somehow trades for him but will command more than Lin, or if we sign him next year we will be competing with other teams with deep and desperate GM's throwing money at him. So our options are limited. If Bev shows up in training camp and outplays Lin good for him and let mchale decide to start him.

    Btw no one is saying Lin is elite. But at the moment he is about 15-20 best starting PG in the league I would say, better in some categories and worse in some. Basically average which is what we are paying him. If we somehow land a second star on a different position we don't need him to be elite. Look at the last winners PG's Fisher, Chalmers and Kidd ( on decline ) won it, none of them were elite. Parker won it 07 and he wasn't elite back then imo. He was great but not the top 3 pg. You don't need a top 5 pg unless you have a big man and a SG who is possbible top 10 players in your team. Once we settle the Free agency we will know what to do with Lin, until then its not the worst thing to see what happens the upcoming season

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    1. lin can not dribble with both hands. no ability to drive left. makes him easier to guard

    4.lin has trouble staying in front of small quick guard......and the nba is loaded with them. some believe his defense is ok.......I don't

    These are probably the two most common and unfair criticisms that Lin gets.

    1. He actually drives left alot, he just doesn't finish with his left hand when he does.

    4. Lin has trouble guarding the Westbrook's and Parker's of the league, but the reality is that pretty much everyone (including Chris Paul and Rondo) have trouble guarding those guys.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Sounds like a fair assessment of Lin, and of at least 20 other starting PG's in the NBA not to mention backup PG's, etc. Well, except for the $20 million part. I love rooting for the underdog and for hardworking, dedicated players who strive to become the best they can be. That is the primary reason I believe in Jeremy Lin at this point in his career and in his short stint thus far with the Rockets. In the end, it doesn't matter a whit what you or I or anyone else thinks. In Morey and Alexander I trust!!

    20 mil in my book should be able to buy a point guard in the top ten of the league.20 mil is a lot to spend at that position.....dragic sign with phoenix for 8 mil per last summer and he is light years better than lin. I don't think lin is capable of ever being as good as dragic. that makes his contract an anvil. YES the guy is likeable. but he can't play very well. every time I see bev go on the floor I see a player who can improve enough to be a force.....I don't see that in lin. over the course of next year bev should take lin's job (IMO). you can root for lin all you want.....I'm rooting for him too because his success is our success. however I don't see the tools necessary in the tool bag lin is carrying

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    1. lin can not dribble with both hands. no ability to drive left. makes him easier to guard
    2. far to often lin is able to get to the paint but doesn't know what to do with the ball
    3.lin leaves his feet to make passes....this is fatal....this must be stopped
    4.lin has trouble staying in front of small quick guard......and the nba is loaded with them. some believe his defense is ok.......I don't
    5.lin is a streak shooter....more oftencold than hot
    will that get you started? :lol:I'm prepared to defend each point. you see I don't have rose colored glasses on when it comes to lin. I watched him very closely this year and while he did marginally improve linsanity was a fluke. excuses are like buttholes.... everybody got one. fact is for the 20 mil he will be paid over the next 2 years his skills come up way way short of his paycheck

    Sounds like a fair assessment of Lin, and of at least 20 other starting PG's in the NBA not to mention backup PG's, etc. Well, except for the $20 million part. I love rooting for the underdog and for hardworking, dedicated players who strive to become the best they can be. That is the primary reason I believe in Jeremy Lin at this point in his career and in his short stint thus far with the Rockets. In the end, it doesn't matter a whit what you or I or anyone else thinks. In Morey and Alexander I trust!!
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    see see I told you all I wasn't going to bash lin, but you are twisting my arm :lol:

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Besides, not all crippling players are necessarily bad. I remember back in the day when a crippled Willis Reed led the NY Knicks to the NBA Championship. ;>}

    your kidding right? :blink:

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    RBF, I am sincerely curious. You have alluded to Lin's "fatal" and "crippling" flaws multiple times, but never actually mentioned them (as far as I remember). I am truly interested to hear, or read, your observations on Lin. I see he has weaknesses, but I don't see anything that would prohibit him from being a top10 PG in time. Let's hear it...I know you've got some keen insight to share...

    1. lin can not dribble with both hands. no ability to drive left. makes him easier to guard

    2. far to often lin is able to get to the paint but doesn't know what to do with the ball

    3.lin leaves his feet to make passes....this is fatal....this must be stopped

    4.lin has trouble staying in front of small quick guard......and the nba is loaded with them. some believe his defense is ok.......I don't

    5.lin is a streak shooter....more oftencold than hot

    will that get you started? :lol:I'm prepared to defend each point. you see I don't have rose colored glasses on when it comes to lin. I watched him very closely this year and while he did marginally improve linsanity was a fluke. excuses are like buttholes.... everybody got one. fact is for the 20 mil he will be paid over the next 2 years his skills come up way way short of his paycheck

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago Besides, not all crippling players are necessarily bad. I remember back in the day when a crippled Willis Reed led the NY Knicks to the NBA Championship. ;>}
  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    RBF, I am sincerely curious. You have alluded to Lin's "fatal" and "crippling" flaws multiple times, but never actually mentioned them (as far as I remember). I am truly interested to hear, or read, your observations on Lin. I see he has weaknesses, but I don't see anything that would prohibit him from being a top10 PG in time. Let's hear it...I know you've got some keen insight to share...

  • rocketrick says 10 months ago

    manmythlegend/thenit
    you want to see more b4 making your decisions on lin. I respect that, however I have seen enough to know that lin will only improve marginally over his career because hisflaws are crippling. I won't waste timelisting them, but I consider some of them to be sodebilitating that I don't see him overcoming some of them. you guys have your opinion about him, and I'm good with that. just don't try to make the man a better player than he is. you feel he will improve enough to clean up most of these flaws........I don't and there is nothing you can show me to make me believe other wise. the only reason I bought his salary up was in the context of how crippling it will be to the rockets if he is unable to make this jump that you two seem convinced he is capable of. FACT: no matter how you dress it up lin will make 20 mil over the next 2 years. he does not produce onthe level of a player that should be making that much. if we get D-12 sure that would hide some of his faults, but why should we have to hide a player who is making 20 mil? what are we getting for our 20 mil?a point guard who will never be anything more than average? we can do better for that amount of money. time to cut ties with lin and bring in someone who can earn some of that money. that's my point

    But you could say the same about 90% of ALL Nba Players, that they aren't "elite" per your definition. Just like those that wanted an upgrade at Head Coach, the same goes for position players. Just not many options out there. Why not allow Lin a full off-season to continue improving his game? Why not allow Lin and Harden more time to develop their chemistry?

    IMO, the Rockets, just like every other team out there (well, except for the Lakers and Knicks who seemingly don't mind paying exhorbitant luxury tax season after season after season) has the limitation of the Salary Cap. As fans, we should be glad there's a Salary Cap of sorts in place. Otherwise, all the good players would go to LA and NY and they would fight it out each year for the NBA Title.

    True, Leslie Alexander is willing to pay some luxury tax and I give him kudos for that. However, that doesn't mean he's going to go all in nor should he. If so, why not just sign Josh Smith, Dwight Howard and Chris Paul this off-season?

    Just because Lin is not defined as being "elite" enough is not reason enough in my mind to dump him for scraps like some on this forum have insanely suggested.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Oh okay, so you don't hate Lin. Cool, I was confused. It's just that all the times you described his weaknesses as "fatal" and "crippling", that might suggest otherwise.

    My assessment has been that Lin is a bad fit here in Houston, as opposed to a bench player with fatal and crippling flaws in his game.

    The best type of PG for this Harden-era Rockets team is an Eric Snow or Derek Fisher-type. Someone who is solid defender and spot up shooter, and who doesn't need the ball to thrive. It's easier to find those guys than to pine for CP3, who would not be an ideal fit to pair with Harden at this stage of their careers.

    I do agree that some of lin's problem is derived from a bad fit for his skill set on this team. when I say fatal and crippling....there are faults in lin's game that will prevent him from taking the necessary steps to be elite. he makes to much money in my view to not be elite. we can find average PG'salmost anywhere cheaper. elite is what we are looking for.

  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago Oh okay, so you don't hate Lin. Cool, I was confused. It's just that all the times you described his weaknesses as "fatal" and "crippling", that might suggest otherwise.

    My assessment has been that Lin is a bad fit here in Houston, as opposed to a bench player with fatal and crippling flaws in his game.

    The best type of PG for this Harden-era Rockets team is an Eric Snow or Derek Fisher-type. Someone who is solid defender and spot up shooter, and who doesn't need the ball to thrive. It's easier to find those guys than to pine for CP3, who would not be an ideal fit to pair with Harden at this stage of their careers.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    RBF:

    I'm just here to provide a counterargument to your views on Lin. I'm not here to convince anyone to change their minds, especially yours since it's clear that it's already made up. Which is kind of unlucky for you because, for better or worse, Lin will be here at least another season (& for as long as he makes the owner money).

    As for your math (now Lin is a $20 million dollar man), I got a D in high school geometry, so I definitely can't help you in that department.

    I disagree. lin could be gone without ever playing another game for the rockets. nobody knows which direction morey will move if D-12 can be signed. to assume lin won't be traded is premature at best. you don't need an A in geometry to know that. as I told you b4 I don't hate lin, I just think our money can be better spent

  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago RBF:

    I'm just here to provide a counterargument to your views on Lin. I'm not here to convince anyone to change their minds, especially yours since it's clear that it's already made up. Which is kind of unlucky for you because, for better or worse, Lin will be here at least another season (& for as long as he makes the owner money).

    As for your math (now Lin is a $20 million dollar man), I got a D in high school geometry, so I definitely can't help you in that department.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    manmythlegend/thenit

    you want to see more b4 making your decisions on lin. I respect that, however I have seen enough to know that lin will only improve marginally over his career because hisflaws are crippling. I won't waste timelisting them, but I consider some of them to be sodebilitating that I don't see him overcoming some of them. you guys have your opinion about him, and I'm good with that. just don't try to make the man a better player than he is. you feel he will improve enough to clean up most of these flaws........I don't and there is nothing you can show me to make me believe other wise. the only reason I bought his salary up was in the context of how crippling it will be to the rockets if he is unable to make this jump that you two seem convinced he is capable of. FACT: no matter how you dress it up lin will make 20 mil over the next 2 years. he does not produce onthe level of a player that should be making that much. if we get D-12 sure that would hide some of his faults, but why should we have to hide a player who is making 20 mil? what are we getting for our 20 mil?a point guard who will never be anything more than average? we can do better for that amount of money. time to cut ties with lin and bring in someone who can earn some of that money. that's my point

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago He has negatives. He needs to work harder at keeping his dribble. He needs to work on his catch and shooting ability and he needs to improve his defensive IQ by watching film and leaning when to double and when not to double
  • thenit says 10 months ago

    problem is lin don't play the game like cp3 does.

    The way you base Lin salary on 15 mil is just misrepresenting the costs of that player. In a salary cap era, its the salary cap hit that matters since you are not signing the backloaded contract. This particular argument just doesn't pass the smell test. Then it can be said on the opposite end of your argument that we had a 5 million dollar PG who over performed since he his paid almost 40% less than the average starting PG in the league.

    In regards of all your other comments about Lin, those are valid and people just have different opinion on what he brings to the table.

  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago No way. There can only be one alpha dog in the backcourt, and it will be CP3 no matter where he goes. One will ultimately be marginalized, and it won't be CP3; he is not at that stage of his career to defer to ANYONE just.

    The Olympics is a step above the All Star game. Even Carmelo Anthony plays nice there...that doesn't translate to how he plays in the NBA.
  • Steven says 10 months ago

    RBF:

    There's only one CP3. And he's not dumb enough to come to Houston and play with James Harden.


    Yea he'd never play with a 2 guard who can shoot threes. A guy who can run the offense when Paul is on the bench. CP3 has played in the Olympics with he best players in the NBA (including Harden). Harden "hogged" the ball because that was what was required with the setup of these players. He has also played off the ball for three years. CP3 & Hardin would set up the best backcourt in the NBA.
  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago RBF:

    There's only one CP3. And he's not dumb enough to come to Houston and play with James Harden.
  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago I've never said Lin is a finished product. I consider his season as a Rocket as a massive disappointment (based on what I personally hoped he would do this season). Everyone knows his flaws; can't dribble, can't shoot, can't defend, and on and on and on.

    My contention is the argument that Lin's evaluation period of one year is enough to predict the arc of his career here in Houston and beyond. It's too early, particularly for a point guard in the beginning stage of his career. Then the argument that he is "overpaid"...relative to who? Jameer Nelson, Mo Williams, Rodney Stuckey and Devin Harris, that's who; those PG's cap numbers were the same level as Lin's this year.

    Again, I have no idea if Lin will be All-Star or HoF good, but he's no worse than an average starting point guard at this point, and his base salary and cap number are reasonable.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    You keep mentioning CP3 as if those elite point guards are available at your local garage sale.

    You keep mentioning money, well let's talk money. At your $8 million average year salary that you keep quoting, you fail to mention that this is still half what a max salary player makes. At your 2 year, $20 million salary, that is still 42% lower than what Paul made the past 2 years (Paul's base salary was $17.8 million this year, & over the next two years, Paul will make nearly $22 million per year if he signs a 4 year max deal). So in reality, Lin is producing just fine for what he is earning today in real dollars, and I am willing to let him try to earn his money going forward.

    And be careful what you wish for: in the highly unlikely event that CP3 ends up Houston, it would be an even worse match with Harden than it currently is with Lin/Harden.

    problem is lin don't play the game like cp3 does.

  • miketheodio says 10 months ago

    Do you think Harden is earning his contract? He's making close to LBJ money

    Keep in mind lbj is underpaid.



    For the rest of the thread:

    I think the biggest problem here is the people who are high on Lin do not seem to acknowledge any downside in his current game. It's a list of positives then proceeding to gloss over the negatives (often times saying non at all). The only negative comment is "he will improve".

    I have 2 questions for the pro Lin crowd. Do you think he has any negative aspects to his current game? If so, what are they?

    I would like to see if he improves next season. I'm not saying he needs to go now?
  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago You keep mentioning CP3 as if those elite point guards are available at your local garage sale.

    You keep mentioning money, well let's talk money. At your $8 million average year salary that you keep quoting, you fail to mention that this is still half what a max salary player makes. At your 2 year, $20 million salary, that is still 42% lower than what Paul made the past 2 years (Paul's base salary was $17.8 million this year, & over the next two years, Paul will make nearly $22 million per year if he signs a 4 year max deal). So in reality, Lin is producing just fine for what he is earning today in real dollars, and I am willing to let him try to earn his money going forward.

    And be careful what you wish for: in the highly unlikely event that CP3 ends up Houston, it would be an even worse match with Harden than it currently is with Lin/Harden.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    RBF:

    I can't tell you what's going to happen two weeks from now, much less two years from now. If Lin underperforms to his $15 million, he won't be the first, last, worst or most overpaid athlete in the NBA or pro sports in general.

    I don't have a crystal ball either, but it's not hard to figure out lin won't be cp3 is it? true he will not have been the first overpaid player, but what are you saying.......you want the rockets to have one or what? because if we keep him that's what it will be. and I didn't even have to call the physic hotline for that one :lol:

  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago RBF:

    I can't tell you what's going to happen two weeks from now, much less two years from now. If Lin underperforms to his $15 million, he won't be the first, last, worst or most overpaid athlete in the NBA or pro sports in general.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago Do you think Harden is earning his contract? He's making close to LBJ money
  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago Do you think is earning his contract? He's making close to LBJ money
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    RBF:

    He's making $5 million next season and made $5 million last year; you know this. Judge him based on that. When he makes his $15 million, judge him then at that salary. Be fair.

    I'm judging him on his contract regardless of how it's paid out. wait till year 3....are you kidding. he makes 15 mil in year 3....that's cp3 type money.....do you think he will be playing like cp3 by then?

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    edit:double post

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago But, being fair is hard...
  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago RBF:

    He's making $5 million next season and made $5 million last year; you know this. Judge him based on that. When he makes his $15 million, judge him then at that salary. Be fair.
  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    Can you provide a link to a jlin hate site ? Just to be fair

    :lol: :lol: :lol:

    JG I agree with most of what you say above.........I am trying not to bash lin because I really like the kid, but to not look at the guy for what he really is? I hope he improves no matter wherehe ends up playing basketball be that here or somewhere else. the guy is likeable. I don't hate him. just because I point out his faults or compare him to other options doesn't mean I think he's garbage. seems like if you say one thing about him all his fans go on the attack or something. I am not as optimistic on his ceiling as most here. I watched the same games everyone else watched, but I don't see the elite player. I see average at best. I hear the stat geeks for how he improved post allstar break, but he has so far to go to be good I think we would be better served replacing him. FACT lin will make 20 mil over the next 2 years......that's 10 mil per. DOES HE PLAY LIKE A PLAYER MAKING 10 MIL PER????? ARE HIS STATS THE STATS OF A PLAYER MAKING 10 MIL PER???? the days of being able to carry a luxury 10 mil per around have passed in the nba. every dollar must be spent wisely to maximize assets assembled. lin is a luxury bev is a lunch pail guy and right now the lunch pail guy is playing better. I think if we get a foreman ( Bledsoe)the lunch pail guy might be alright and we can use our money else where. that's my point. I do agree lin will improve just not enough to be earning that contract.

  • manmythlegend says 10 months ago As far as his athleticism is concerned, Lin has plenty of it; just Youtube his steal-and-facial on Francisco Garcia vs the Kings as evidence of this. But really, How many "hyper-athletic" point guards are out there? Aside from Westbrook and the point guard formerly known as Derrick Rose, there aren't that many.

    As far as the "eye test" is concerned, Lin has failed virtually every single one in his career beginning in high school. I'm not sure how valid those eye tests are when it comes to him any more.
  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    Done!

  • timetodienow1234567 says 10 months ago Can you provide a link to a jlin hate site ? Just to be fair
  • thejohnnygold says 10 months ago

    Regardless of how one chooses to look at the situation--there's no denying Jeremy Lin's power of polarization.

    While I maintain my stance that we should let Lin continue to develop and that keeping him is my preferred direction--we should be open to the opinions and viewpoints being expressed. The thing is--everyone is right. Lin does have holes in his game right now and there is no guarantee he will overcome those weaknesses. There is a reason basketball players make millions of dollars--at the NBA level, very few people can succeed at what they do. Jeremy Lin has his work cut out for him and it is reasonable to doubt that. While our options for replacing him are limited, there is nothing wrong with desiring an upgrade at the PG position as what is best for the Rockets is what we all truly want. The Jeremy Lin fansite is here if people want to focus solely on him.

    On the flip-side, the stats are compelling. Bringing in the context of a new team, the leg injury, and learning to play without the ball in his hands as much--Jeremy put up solid numbers that improved as the season went on. Unfortunately, we were robbed of seeing him compete in a full play-off series so we can't judge much from that. Still, those per game stats are nothing to sneeze at. If we assume a likely upward learning curve it is not unreasonable to forecast an improved Jeremy Lin (especially knowing he is a smart, eager kid with a strong work ethic).

    I think one problem with watching Jeremy is he is not great at any one thing. He isn't hyper-athletic. He doesn't shoot lights out. He doesn't make impossible passes. He doesn't possess awesome dribbling skills. There is just nothing exceptional about him--at least that we readily see in game play. Yet, He is a good passer. He is a good three point shooter. He can get by defenders and get to the rim where he is learning how to get his shot off successfully and draw fouls a la Harden (he already does, but it needs some work). He plays decent defense. He has a good bball IQ. He can make big shots in clutch time. He makes mistakes, but they are mistakes that many young players make and should dissipate over time. He is liked by team mates, coaches, and fans. In short, he can do everything--and do it well....except dribble lefty and finish lefty....I guarantee he is in the gym every day working on that.

    So, to go back to my previous assertion--we are in a win-win situation. If Lin gets moved it will be because we are getting a star (at some position) or a better PG. This is good for the Rockets. If we keep him, then we have a PG who is already good and still improving--how much is debatable, but certainly we can assume he will get better and not worse. This is also good for the Rockets.

    Basketball is a 5 man game. Even if we get Chris Paul we are guaranteed nothing (just check his playoff record).

    We should all root for Jeremy to be as good as possible. If we trade him he has more value...if we keep him he has more value...It's simple, really. B)

  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago

    I will let you all debate Lin all you want without throwing my opinion in (not that anyone wants to hear it, ha!) since I have grown tired of Lin discussions.

    I was merely chiming in to refute the contention that Harden and Asik didn't really improve this year. Below are Harden's per 36 stats and I see pretty clear improvement across the board especially if you were to factor in his true shooting percentage. Harden not only improved from previous campaigns but also carried this franchise which no other player on the roster can even be considered to have such importance except Asik.

    Season    Age  Tm  Lg Pos   G GS   MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
    2009-10    20 OKC NBA  SG  76  0 1738 4.8 12.0 .403 1.9 5.1 .375 4.0 5.0 .808 1.0 4.1 5.1 2.8 1.7 0.4 2.2 4.1 15.6
    2010-11    21 OKC NBA  SG  82  5 2189 4.9 11.2 .436 1.9 5.3 .349 4.8 5.6 .843 0.7 3.5 4.2 2.9 1.5 0.4 1.7 3.4 16.4
    2011-12    22 OKC NBA  SG  62  2 1946 5.7 11.6 .491 2.1 5.4 .390 5.8 6.8 .846 0.6 4.1 4.7 4.2 1.1 0.3 2.5 2.8 19.3
    2012-13    23 HOU NBA  SG  78 78 2985 7.1 16.1 .438 2.2 5.9 .368 8.1 9.6 .851 0.7 3.8 4.6 5.5 1.7 0.5 3.6 2.1 24.4
    Career            NBA     298 85 8858 5.8 13.1 .441 2.0 5.5 .370 6.0 7.1 .842 0.7 3.9 4.6 4.1 1.5 0.4 2.6 3.0 19.6

    I see Asik clearly improved while also shouldering a great load relative to what he had be entrusted with before.

    Season    Age  Tm  Lg Pos  G GS  MP  FG FGA  FG%  3P 3PA 3P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB  TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
    2010-11    24 CHI NBA   C 15  0 148 1.5 3.2 .462 0.0 0.0     0.7 2.4 .300 2.4 5.1  7.5 0.2 0.5 1.9 1.7 5.1  3.6
    2011-12    25 CHI NBA   C  6  3 128 2.0 3.9 .500 0.0 0.0     1.7 4.8 .353 2.3 5.6  7.9 2.3 0.3 2.8 2.3 3.9  5.6
    2012-13    26 HOU NBA   C  6  6 208 3.8 6.8 .564 0.0 0.0     5.2 8.1 .638 3.6 8.0 11.6 0.5 0.5 1.7 2.1 3.8 12.8
    Career            NBA     27  9 484 2.6 4.9 .530 0.0 0.0     2.9 5.5 .527 2.9 6.5  9.4 0.9 0.4 2.1 2.0 4.2  8.1
  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    Thanks 2016Champions for the insight but I am not sure if that really answers what I was wondering about in my previous post. I agree you can't put much serious stock in a fan's eye test or analysis of stats but I am really just approaching this as a fan with an opinion nothing more since I am just a fan, which I am okay with.

    I wasn't directing that post at you so it wasn't supposed to answer anything, it was more like a rant to Rockets fans in general. I think the way alot of Rockets fans are acting towards Jeremy Lin is disappointing and I just had to let it out.

  • rockets best fan says 10 months ago

    wph342711/RollingWave/2016

    I don't need your approval to use the eye test. I have an opinion just like you guys. just because we don't agree don't try to belittle an eye test. perhaps if each of you had a better b-ball eye you wouldn't be so quick to discount it. I have watched more b-ball than any two of you combined. there is nothing..... I repeat NOTHING that either of you can tell me about how I evaluate players. I don't just look at one piece of information I view it all. RollingWave to assume that I suffer from some kind of sysdrome of viewing mistakes up close and strength from afar is insulting to me because you assume I don't have enough sense to take this factor into account. nothing could be further from the truth. Bledsoe is better than lin (IMO). nothing either of you can say to change my mind and I don't need your approval to have an opinion. I expect this kind of response from 2016.....he is a stat geek who can't see beyond his printed sheets of paper. however the other 2 of you? I guess I'm going to lump you in 2016's group as well. would that be fair? neither is it for either of you to assume you know anything about me. I have been watching basketball since '68 can either of you say the same? after watching this game for that long I don't need some stat sheet to tell me what I'm looking at. maybe one day when you get this much experience under your belt then you can put trust in what you think you see. until then keep reading stats and other people's opinionsto help you make up your minds because each of you clearly have a lot to learn........and I don't even need my b-ball eye to see that

  • Richards says 10 months ago

    Unless we got CP3 and/or D12, don't mess too much with current roster except PF position.

    Nobody knows, Lin, Harden, Parsons, and Asik will do coming season.

    We don't even know how well Harden will play. Will he be the same, better, or worse?

    Let's give them one more year.

  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago

    Thanks 2016Champions for the insight but I am not sure if that really answers what I was wondering about in my previous post. I agree you can't put much serious stock in a fan's eye test or analysis of stats but I am really just approaching this as a fan with an opinion nothing more since I am just a fan, which I am okay with.

  • 2016Champions says 10 months ago

    I have to agree with Rolling Wave, anyone here who isn't a pro scout shouldn't be putting too much stock into their own eye-test, and I don't think we can put too much stock into stats either (at least not the ones available to the public). Even if we want to use stats, I think the only stats available to the public that are marginally useful are the ones that you see on scouting reports. For example you will find that draftexpress uses alot ofSynergystats, and John Hollinger (creator of PER who is now VP for the Grizzlies) liked to cite on/off court numbers on his scouting reports. But in all his scouting reports it's clear that he watches a ton of games, he's only using the numbers to reinforce what he really knows, so when we use the stats it won't be as effective as when a pro scout uses the stats (doesn't stop me from trying though :P). In other words, when it comes to player analysis, we're pretty much stranded in a creek without a paddle.

    tumblr_mkwu0hDXTK1ri39y2o1_500.gif

    This is why I'm always appealing to authority, for example I think Zach Lowe is a very smart basketball guy and I consider myself very lucky he's a heavy writer--all his articles are gold. And when he hasn't written anything on what I'm looking for, I will search for other scouting reports. Here's an incredibly detailed scouting report on Jeremy Lin created prior to this season:http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2009/12/15/1201646/bow-to-the-jeremy-lin-movement-b-o

    And here's something John Hollinger wrote:

    I find it fascinating that so many people seem to think Lin will be a flash in the pan. He has essentially no track of failure, playing well in his brief stints in the D-League and Golden State before his brief eruption with the Knicks last season. Additionally, he will play in a system that's tailor-made for point guards -- just ask Goran Dragic and Kyle Lowry, both of whom had career-best seasons in Kevin McHale's offense last season.

    Yes, Lin has a high turnover rate and isn't a great outside shooter. He also draws fouls in bunches, rebounds unusually well for a point guard, and gets a lot of assists at the rim. Over the course of an 82-game season he may not match the heights of Linsanity -- virtually no player can -- but as long as his knee holds up he'll be an above-average starting point guard and should average something along the lines of 18 points and seven assists.

    http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204860

    Now before anyone reminds me that Lin only averaged 13ppg, let me remind you of this first:

    Jeremy Lin's post All-Star break per 36:
    17.2 ppg
    6.8 ast
    45% fg
    37.5% 3pt

    If not for a slow recovery from the knee surgery, and a lack of minutes, John Hollinger's prediction would be looking pretty good right now.

    So, according to the scouting reports and the way Jeremy Lin progressed, there's a lot of room for optimism. Are we seriously going to give up on him after one season despite all this? That's just silly. Anyway, even if we want to give up on him, I don't think it matters. At the end of the day it's Daryl Morey's decision, and he's going to listen to his scouts--not us--thank God for that.

  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago Right, I understand that the comment was using win shares but would that not be deceptive since all the players being discussed were on different teams with different win totals and different situations? Whereas I thought the original debate was about who was improving and who was not and when taken within the context of real life events the per 36 stats show how Asik and Harden improved? I am not sure though and some of you are much better with the advanced metrics so if anyone could break it down I would be interested. I like advanced stats but I am kind of an old timer and still like the eye test.
  • wph342711 says 10 months ago

    Rollingwave was probably referring to WOS/48 - Asik and Harden both dropped a decent amount this year as compared to last year.Comparing the other statistics, they got worse in some, better than others.

  • feelingsupersonic says 10 months ago I am not interested in getting into a Lin debate but I do dispute your assertion Rollingwave that Harden and Asik experienced serious decreases in per minute metrics. I skimmed over per 36 minutes for both Harden and Asik and I note improvement from their previous season to this past season as starters. Perhaps I misunderstood you and you meant something else but looking at their per 36 minutes at their worst they matched their career average with many categories showing improvements.


    http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/asikom01.html
  • RollingWave says 10 months ago

    At the end of the day, it's never a great idea to put too much faith in the eye test evaluation,especiallysince no one here is a pro scout, and even pro scouts usually disagree with each other (see the case of Rudy Gay. whom I'm fairly sure can now be definitively proved that whoever ranted on about hisathleticability and what not should just shove a pack of crow down their throat, and there were so many that would probably cause the crow population in the US to be endangered.)

    On a stats level, one should note that, from a Winshare per 48 POV, the arguement for Bledsoe over Lin is limited at best, while there is a stronger case for Beverly over Lin, though one should also note that in most cases, there's a significant decline in that stat for a player going from bench to start, Harden and Asik are both lower this year in reality versus last on a per minute basis (shouldn't be a surprise to hear that it's harder to do the play 30+ min vs 20+ vs 10+) . and that in his playoff stretch where he started, his overall stats was not better than what Lin brought in the regular season. (granted, very small sample size. and the only guy who's advance stats didn't suck this playoff on the Rockets compare to his regular was Asik, )

  • RollingWave says 11 months ago

    @wph342711: great post

    @RBF: I think you need to keep in mind that, it's easier to see weakness up close, and easier to see strength from afar, I think your running a pretty high risk of doing that right now. and seems very much being influenced by the few playoff games of a guy playing hurt versus a much larger body of work. neither are good ideas to evaluate talent long term.

    Bledsoe is basically a mirror image of Patrick Beverly, I think you COULD make anargumentof playing them over Lin, but the argument that somehow would be a dramatic improvement of pushing this team over the top, is fairly absurd. all 3 players are essentially in the same range of guys who is more or less an average PG at age 23-24, and might be better or worse going forward. none of them will end up being a top 5 PG, but who might end up with being a consistent above average one is very much unknown. (and really, there aren't many guys who are consistently above average. Jose Calderon is probably the closest, and he was terrible at age 24.)

    Aswph342711 clearly points out, the Rockets are not a marginal upgrade at PG away from anything, and if your suggesting that replacing Lin with anyone is a massive upgrade, your talking nonsense. And given contract consideration, arguing for Bledsoe makes even less sense than arguing for Beverly. who does give the Rockets a massive financial advantage if they can start 2 hugely underpriced player. Bledsoe won't be underpriced starting next year. and he's really only been underpriced this year, since he was pretty terrible in the two before.

  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    @wph342711

    welcome to the forum :rolleyes:......did you go there? did you really go there?moochie Norris? :lol:if there was one player the rocket had that I couldn't stand the ground he walked on..... it was moochie Norris. the man was a disgrace too thejersey. we have had some clunkers in our time, but he stunk.

    as for Bledsoe I disagree with you. he's no cp3, but better than lin without question in my mind. perhaps you didn't watch lin closely enough this past season. no one is saying that the reason we didn't win the championship was because of lin......where did that come from? we didn't win the championship because we don't have enough pieces to the puzzle yet. getting those pieces may mean lin no longer has a future here. there are better cheaper option available rendering him expendable.

  • rocketrick says 11 months ago

    Its much more reasonable to believe that he won't come back 'much' better after the offseason. He didn't show me much improvement this year either. If we could get anything in return that isn't attached to a contract, as well as having a suitable replacement(which there really aren't many available) I would do it in an instant.

    As for Bledsoe, I would certainly take the chance. There is a reason the Clippers held onto him and let Gordon go during the CP3 deal, and whoever benefits from him being dealt will is incredibly lucky.

    It's easy to forget Lin had surgery on his knee after the 2012 playoffs and he wasn't at full strength until at least 1 month, probably longer into the 2013 regular season. Kinda hard to do much in the off season when you're recovering from a knee injury.
  • wph342711 says 11 months ago

    Couple of thoughts

    1) Bledoe's potentialis abitoverrated


    People put way too much weight on athletic ability when gauging someone's potential. I'm a rockets fan living in LA, have lived with a diehard clippers fan for the past couple of years, and have watched almost as many clippers games during that time span as rockets game. if we want to talk 'eye tests' (which is a bit funny on an anonymous blog where no one's credentials, or lack thereof, can be challenged), eric bledsoe lacks a basic feel for the game that I think prevents him from becoming an elite pg. he's a one-gear player whose default is just to recklessly drive straight to the rim - harden does enough of that for my likingbut at least he's an innately talented passer. eric bledsoe is not. for now, he's a shotputset shooter and to consistently run the pick and roll you have to be able to jump shoot off the dribble. to be honest, he has bad defensive instincts, constantly gets beat off the dribble, but he's such an ungodly athlete that he recovers. I think he's a good exciting player and can bring a lot to any team, but I think his ceiling isn't much more than a dynamic bench player on a great team or a serviceable starter on a great team stacked at other positions.

    With that in mind, I don't think the difference between Jeremy Lin and Eric Bledsoe will make or break our title hopes for years to come.

    2) How are we getting him exactly?

    If we can get Eric Bledsoe for Thomas Robinson and a mid first round pick, then either Thomas Robinson made some serious stridesand Blake Griffin's left leg fell off,or it's become clear that Eric Bledsoe is not the player you think he is or can be. I actually don't think the Clippers trade Bledsoe in the offseason, and if he is tradedI don't think it wouldbe for a young unproven player like Thomas Robinson or anyone else we can offer. Bledsoe is too important of a part of the Clippers bench and they are in win-now mode.

    3) Jeremy Lin is not the reason we will or won't become a championship contender

    I find it hilarious how dire our pg situation is characterized by people on this blog. As if our team as currently constructed is on the precipice of greatness and Jeremy Lin is the only thing holding us back from obtaining that potential now. If we feel like the only way we can be a championship contender is having a top 5 elite pg by Harden's side, then you are all absolutely right. Jeremy Lin isn't the guy. But I sure as hell hope that that isn't our blueprint tobuild achampionship contender.

    Our singular focus should be to find a second star for Harden, at any of the other four positions (but ideally a big man). If it's a star PG like Chris Paul, then hell yes we make the deal and figure out something to do with Jeremy Lin. But outside of an all star replacement for any incumbent starter, I think it'stoo early and a bit pointless to be throwing people overboard, given the age of our team and the roster uncertainty. Don't get me wrong - if getting a guy like Dwight Howard requires us to move Jeremy's contract in the process, we for sure do that too. But other than that, i think it's premature to be thinking about marginal improvements before we find a second bona fide star to go with Harden.

    4) We need to get over personal misgivings for Howard and be actively rooting forhis signing.

    As much as I dislike Dwight Howard, getting him will change everything. Assuming he is mentally and physically right-which I know is not the easiest of assumptions these days -we could resign and start Moochie Norris at pg and we'd still be a West contender. That being said, if you don't think passing to Dwight Howard on pick and rolls instead ofto Asik won't do wonders for James and Jeremy's games, then you are outside your mind.

    5) This is a very exciting time to be a Rocket fan.

    No further explanation needed on this one.

  • blakecouey says 11 months ago

    Just dump Lin for two second-round picks? That's just crazy, loony talk in my opinion. Why the rush to show Lin the door? Why not see how he can improve his game this off-season and have training camp with the rest of the team to see how he's evolved. I think Lin is going to come back a much better player and those who are unwilling to give him that opportunity are sure going to look dumb this fall in my opinion.

    So who would be running point for the Rockets?

    I think you're putting the cart before the horse when desiring to ship Lin off without a suitable replacement.

    Its much more reasonable to believe that he won't come back 'much' better after the offseason. He didn't show me much improvement this year either. If we could get anything in return that isn't attached to a contract, as well as having a suitable replacement(which there really aren't many available) I would do it in an instant.

    As for Bledsoe, I would certainly take the chance. There is a reason the Clippers held onto him and let Gordon go during the CP3 deal, and whoever benefits from him being dealt will is incredibly lucky.

  • rocketrick says 11 months ago Just dump Lin for two second-round picks? That's just crazy, loony talk in my opinion. Why the rush to show Lin the door? Why not see how he can improve his game this off-season and have training camp with the rest of the team to see how he's evolved. I think Lin is going to come back a much better player and those who are unwilling to give him that opportunity are sure going to look dumb this fall in my opinion.

    So who would be running point for the Rockets?

    I think you're putting the cart before the horse when desiring to ship Lin off without a suitable replacement.
  • manmythlegend says 11 months ago

    then let's send him to Utah :lol:and get a couple of draft picks..... knowing lin's value in the league right now they would probably be 2nd rounders

    I think a lot of people would be happy if that were to happen, on both sides of the argument.

  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    Lin is a bad fit for the Rockets. I feel that is a more accurate assessment at this point. Whenever you take the ball out of the hands of a guard like Lin, you render him ineffective. The ball should and must be in Harden's hands as he is the franchise player and best offensive option in the backcourt; there is no disputing that notion. Lin would thrive in a place like Utah or Sacramento where he can be the primary decision-maker and have legitimate scoring forwards to play the pick and roll.

    then let's send him to Utah :lol:and get a couple of draft picks..... knowing lin's value in the league right now they would probably be 2nd rounders

  • manmythlegend says 11 months ago

    I'm in your camp. I think Lin's best role would be the Harden role he played for the Thunder. Running the second unit.

    Lin is a bad fit for the Rockets. I feel that is a more accurate assessment at this point. Whenever you take the ball out of the hands of a guard like Lin, you render him ineffective. The ball should and must be in Harden's hands as he is the franchise player and best offensive option in the backcourt; there is no disputing that notion. Lin would thrive in a place like Utah or Sacramento where he can be the primary decision-maker and have legitimate scoring forwards to play the pick and roll.

  • Steven says 11 months ago

    2016/manmythlegend
    you guys have your opinions and I respect that, but don't agree. you each see something in lin I don't see.......a capable starter long term


    I'm in your camp. I think Lin's best role would be the Harden role he played for the Thunder. Running the second unit.
  • manmythlegend says 11 months ago

    rbf

    Fair enough. The jury is still out on Lin. I feel he is already a capable starter. I guess I don't know what your definition of "capable" is.

  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    2016/manmythlegend

    you guys have your opinions and I respect that, but don't agree. you each see something in lin I don't see.......a capable starter long term

  • manmythlegend says 11 months ago

    so your trying to tell me lin is better than Bledsoe? forget the stats......look at the players play. lin ceiling is no where near Bledsoe's. Bledsoe has a chance to be a star...........lin a good backup. maybe you haven't spent enough time watching this kid because if you did you would never make that comparison

    We can harp all we want about a player's "ceiling"...whether or not they actually reach it is an altogether different beast. We've seen a ton of players with sky high ceilings that never amounted to anything more than journeymen in the NBA for a variety of reasons.

    All I was saying about Bledsoe was that he had an extended look at PG this past season and was average at best and, statistically, no better or worse than Lin. Bledsoe, like Lin, has a learning curve at PG. So if by some chance that Houston acquires Bledsoe this offseason, be prepared to experience the ups and downs that Lin had this past season, and be equally as critical.

  • 2016Champions says 11 months ago

    I think Lin is a better playmaker and scorer. Bledsoe is the better defender. I'm not really sure who's better overall, but I think we should give Lin more time. Lets not forget that this is the season Lin came off knee surgery and playing without the ball in his hands was something new to him, judging him on this season would be unfair imo.

  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    so your trying to tell me lin is better than Bledsoe? forget the stats......look at the players play. lin ceiling is no where near Bledsoe's. Bledsoe has a chance to be a star...........lin a good backup. maybe you haven't spent enough time watching this kid because if you did you would never make that comparison

  • manmythlegend says 11 months ago Calderon will be 32 at the start of next season. His best composite season is 12.8 pts and 8.9a per game. He's a good player and certainly more efficient shooting the ball than Lin, but defensively I don't believe him to be better, and there is only downside remaining in his game.

    Calderon also didn't come into the league until he was 24 and wasn't a starter until he was 26. These things take time when you're talking about point guards.

    As for Bledsoe, the guy is a ridiculous athlete for sure and plus defender. But in the 12 games as starting point guard when CP3 was injured, the Clips went 6-6 while Bledsoe put up 14.8p/5.3a/4.8r/2.6to while shooting 40% overall and 44% from 3 ball (on only 1.3 attempts per game). He's no CP3 granted, but over a fairly long sample with Bledsoe at quarterback, the Clippers were no better than a .500 team. Both Lin and Bledsoe are 3rd year players with Bledsoe only one year younger than Lin. Another thing to consider with Bledsoe is that he doesn't have a lot of experience at PG; he was a SG his lone season at Kentucky and has been a spot starter in his 3 years in the NBA. If Lin won't be excused for his learning curve, neither should Bledsoe.
  • 2016Champions says 11 months ago

    I feel like I follow closely enough to know when he's being genuine, and I think he genuinely likes Lin. You can tell by the tone in his voice that he's actually a little disgusted about the way fans are reacting to Lin's injury. At the end of the day, we all have our own opinions though and that's fine, we don't need to agree.

    Also, I can't remember who it was, but someone on this thread made a really good post about how we should follow the Spurs example in developing players instead of quickly giving up on them and making desperate trades. I think I voted that post up.

  • rocketrick says 11 months ago Nobody has mentioned how terrible the NY Knicks point guards were in the series vs. Indiana. Makes one wonder what could have been if Nolan would have ponied up to keep Lin on the roster.
  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    I don't think Morey was lying about that, he said in an interview that he was shocked when he got the call from Sacramento and everything happened really fast. And I don't know how much closer I can watch Morey, any closer and I would be stalking the guy.

    stalking...... :lol: :lol:I am only using that to show sometimes the best way to get what you really want is to act like you don't want it and morey is a master of this type of maneuver. just because he says something doesn't mean you can draw any conclusions from it.

  • 2016Champions says 11 months ago

    @thenit

    1. I think I have watched enough of lin to see his ceiling and it's not much better than the player we see now

    2./3. calderon is better than lin right now and played for 5 mil last year compared to j-lin 8.3 mil cap figure. Bledsoe is light years better.....he may be the next elite pg

    4.besides the fact lin will average 10 mil a year for the next two years(8.3 cap figure) he needs special conditions to excel......that spells a player who is not a good fit to me

    @2016

    you are correct.....in morey I trust. however even tho I trust morey to make the right moves to make us successful, I don't believe everything that comes out of his mouth like you. remember when he said there would be no activity b4 the trade deadline? I guess you bought that hook line and sinker huh! if you have been watching morey closely you would know he is never going to give away his hand until it's to late for anybody to do anything about it.

    I don't think Morey was lying about that, he said in an interview that he was shocked when he got the call from Sacramento and everything happened really fast. And I don't know how much closer I can watch Morey, any closer and I would be stalking the guy.

  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if Morey didn't even watch the games, Billy Bean doesn't. Watching brings emotion, which you can't have if you're going to be an objective decision maker in the NBA. Watching Practice (Yes I'm talking about Practice) is one thing, but watching games is another considering an hour after the game he can have all the stats.

    I would be surprised if morey didn't watch every game. sure watching brings emotion, but there are things that watching can tell you that stats don't. emotion is a problem that all GM's must learn to deal with, but that's why they make the big bucks. there are things that happen in a game that don't appear on stat lines. to make effective decisions a GM need all information both good and bad.....all emotion both good and bad. learning how to weigh all the information and emotion is the difference between good GM's and bad GM's

  • Steven says 11 months ago

    RBF,

    He hasn't spoken poorly of Royce, but he isn't calling Royce our 3rd best player.

    Lin is failing your eye-test, but that doesn't mean he is failing Morey's eye-test, and Morey's opinion (and Alexander's opinion) is all that matters.

    Besides, didn't you say "in Morey I trust"?


    Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if Morey didn't even watch the games, Billy Bean doesn't. Watching brings emotion, which you can't have if you're going to be an objective decision maker in the NBA. Watching Practice (Yes I'm talking about Practice) is one thing, but watching games is another considering an hour after the game he can have all the stats.
  • miketheodio says 11 months ago

    lin needs to study some tony parker tape in the off season. he'd greatly improve if he worked on his ball handling.

  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    I stand corrected on calderon....he did make more than I thought. however Bledsoe makes 2.6 mil next year in the last year of his rookie deal. If the clippers ride it out they can give him a qualifying and then match all bidders for his services. that's unlikely if the clippers resign cp3. they more likely than not will look to move Bledsoe from the very moment they resign cp3. I say t-rob and a first rounder will get that done. b4 the clippers traded to acquire cp3 Bledsoe and Gordon were starting to make some noise in their back court. this kids talents are getting ready to blossom. because he will be in the last year of his rookie deal we will get a chance to watch him b4 committing any real money to him.if we sign howard and pull this trade off........imo that's a team that can beat anybody.

  • thenit says 11 months ago

    @thenit

    1. I think I have watched enough of lin to see his ceiling and it's not much better than the player we see now

    2./3. calderon is better than lin right now and played for 5 mil last year compared to j-lin 8.3 mil cap figure. Bledsoe is light years better.....he may be the next elite pg

    4.besides the fact lin will average 10 mil a year for the next two years(8.3 cap figure) he needs special conditions to excel......that spells a player who is not a good fit to me

    @2016

    you are correct.....in morey I trust. however even tho I trust morey to make the right moves to make us successful, I don't believe everything that comes out of his mouth like you. remember when he said there would be no activity b4 the trade deadline? I guess you bought that hook line and sinker huh! if you have been watching morey closely you would know he is never going to give away his hand until it's to late for anybody to do anything about it.

    Most of the things we won't agree on, but factually Calderon made 10 million last year so no it wasnt 5. Living in Toronto we tried to trade him the previous season but no one would take that kind of salary. Pistons jumped on it because it became an expiring. Calderon is what he is, and he is better than Lin IMO at the moment, but he isn't getting better and he will also not be a great fit with Harden because he needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Also Calderon is one of the worst defenders and one of the slowest pg because he can't beat his man one on one, and he aint getting younger, will not be able to defend any of the quick PG in the West. He is terrible defensively.

    In regards of bledsoe, I haven't seen him enough but even if I take your word that he might be the next great PG, why on earth would the Clippers trade him and if he becomes a RFA , I bet you he will command 10+ millions if he is that good. So he won't be an option the next coming years maybe as a RFA in a couple of years. But then the Lin dilemma would been determined.

    Most players would need certain conditions to excel. Look at Lakers, you would think just with the talent they had they would have been a top 3 seed, but the coachnig system etc didn't work out. Unless you are a superstar player who has the talent to succeed in most teams, you need the right system, coaches, team mates that fits your style to be the best you can be. In regards of Lin post all star I think he made a proper adjustments to improve so imagine if he can do it full time during the off season what those results could be.

    I rather be safe and sorry and wait another year, because Lin's trade value isn't great and we don't have many options at the moment, that we can afford to see where his ceiling is. We can't just dump him for scraps right just to shed salary which doesn't really work in NBA salary cap era.

  • rocketrick says 11 months ago

    My preference, not that it really matters in the overall scheme of things over at Rockets Central, is to give Lin this off-season and into the first part of the 2013-2014 regular season to improve his overall game. If by the time of the Trade Deadline in 2014 Lin is underperforming, yes the Rockets probably should jettison him. True, he would have less value then, but I'm not sure his value is significantly higher at this point anyway.

    I actually expect that Lin will improve his game enough this off season, plus he is so super motivated to becoming one of the better point guards in this league. Will Lin ever be a top-5 or top-10 point guard? Probably not. However, that's true of 85-90% of all players in the NBA.

    And just exactly who could the Rockets sign off free agency for the same or lesser cost ($8.3 million the next 2 seasons) to replace Lin? I don't see anyone out there. Bledsoe is intriguing but I would be surprised if he can be had for less than Lin's salary, plus whoever signs Bledsoe is probably going to have at least a 4 year commitment. There just isn't anyone else out there that intrigues me.

    I would like to see the Rockets try to add more depth to the PG position this off season so that we have better options going forward. Although OKC lost Westbrookafter game 2 of the Rockets-Thunder series, Lin was also out for the most part of the series after game 2 (in fact, Lin missed the entire second half of game 2 which the Rockets couldjust as easily had won as they ended up losing). Beverley had his moments but I believe Reggie Jackson and Derek Fisher (ugghhh!) outplayed the Rockets point guard tandem of Beverley and AB. What if Lin had not been injured in game 2, would that have actually swayed the series to a Rockets win? We'll never know but the way Lin was playingthe last half of the regular season vs. the first half of the regular season, I have no doubt Lin would have been more productive at key offensive points in theseries than Beverley or AB.Although Lin is not as effective defensively as Beverley, Lin does have his moments andhas the ability to make key steals.

  • thejohnnygold says 11 months ago

    I don't know about this cheaper business...Calderon made $11M+ last year. I think Bledsoe will make at least $8M per. Obviously CP3 will be well above that...Who else were you thinking?

  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    @thenit

    1. I think I have watched enough of lin to see his ceiling and it's not much better than the player we see now

    2./3. calderon is better than lin right now and played for 5 mil last year compared to j-lin 8.3 mil cap figure. Bledsoe is light years better.....he may be the next elite pg

    4.besides the fact lin will average 10 mil a year for the next two years(8.3 cap figure) he needs special conditions to excel......that spells a player who is not a good fit to me

    @2016

    you are correct.....in morey I trust. however even tho I trust morey to make the right moves to make us successful, I don't believe everything that comes out of his mouth like you. remember when he said there would be no activity b4 the trade deadline? I guess you bought that hook line and sinker huh! if you have been watching morey closely you would know he is never going to give away his hand until it's to late for anybody to do anything about it.

  • 2016Champions says 11 months ago

    RBF,

    He hasn't spoken poorly of Royce, but he isn't calling Royce our 3rd best player.

    Lin is failing your eye-test, but that doesn't mean he is failing Morey's eye-test, and Morey's opinion (and Alexander's opinion) is all that matters.

    Besides, didn't you say "in Morey I trust"?

  • thenit says 11 months ago

    1. I don't know what his ceiling is and I think it depends on him having the ball in his hands which in our case with Harden is that I probably agree that it won't be as high as we hoped before the season started. His a servicable starting PG in the NBA and his salary cap is 8.3 which is about average.

    2. In terms of Calderon, living in Toronto I watch him a lot, he is a very good PG, however he will be rendered in the same position as Lin as Harden will have the ball more than him, which makes Calderons value dip substantially. He will also command more money than Lin. He will also cripple our salary cap for our hunt for a max player.

    3. Bledsoe is on his rookie contract, and I haven't seen enough of him to give a fair assesment of his ceiling and skill. I seen a few games and he has high potential but whether he will become a great PG, only time will tell. His starter stats are very similar to Lin in terms of points assists to etc.

    Worse fg% but better 3p fg%. Also he had a higher usage rate so his assists should be higher than Lin in those starts. I can't gauge who's potential will be higher but based on what people say, it seems like he will command more than 8.3 million a year when he contracts end, or a trade which I highly doubt the clippers would take Lin in exchange because he is about 5.5million cheaper. And if Paul walks they would want to keep him. A trade would command more thana couple of outsiders since they are set on PF's and they wouldn't want our talented PF pool.

    I just don't think there is a lot of players available at the same price or below and I'm not sure what the salary cap implications on lin 5 and 15 contract is for other teams if we trade him that would be a huge deal if it counts as 5 and 15 the next year as oppose to 8.3.

  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    @2016

    lets deal with the morey comment first...............you always talk about what morey said in regards to a player. when have you heard morey come down on a player in the media. even Royce doesn't get slammed. morey is a true professional in the way he handles the rockets.....that's one of the reasons I like him. however to assume he will not move a player because he spoke favorably on him is unrealistic and shows you have not been watching him closely. morey is a good salesman. why would you talk down about as asset you may be interested in moving in the off season? doesn't make sense does it? that imo renders his comments a nonfactor in this situation.

    now for the meat of this subject :lol:there are several guards available for cheaper....calderon, trade for Bledsoe just for a couple of outsiders, however I'm ok with letting bev and brooks play there until we find what we want, especially if we sign howard. lin's contract is fast becoming an anvil around the necks of the rockets. thankfully it only has 2 more years, but now may be the time to move it while he does still hold some value. I have been patient with all our young players this year. I know rome wasn't built in a day unlike many here. I agree lin does have a chance to improve. however his ceiling is a lot lower than I thought from the beginning. that's why I believe he should be moved.

    and finally stats.................you can quote all the stats you want to.............however lin is failing the eye test :lol: the others you mention are not failing that part. I could bring up a wheel barrel fullof reasons whyhe is failing the test, but the fact of the matter is he doesn't play like a 10 mil a year point guard. that's what the rockets will be paying for his services should they elect to keep him

  • 2016Champions says 11 months ago

    I'm not calling lin a bad player, but we can do better........that's my point..........also this is one of those instances where stats don't explain the whole story

    Stats might not always tell the whole story, but I have alot of respect for Morey's opinions and here are some notes that I got from thispodcast:

    • He's the 5th best pick and roll player in the league at 9 pick and rolls per game
    • Set up team mates very well
    • Had a very good defensive year--very good at 50-50 balls, very good at stripping the ball/steals
    • Was 3rd best player on the team

    I don't think Morey is making those things up.

    So we can either be crappy fans and say "hey lets trade Lin for a bag of Doritos" or we can be awesome fans and say "hey, there are some good reasons why we shouldn't give up on Jeremy Lin". The choice is yours.

  • thenit says 11 months ago

    I'm not calling lin a bad player, but we can do better........that's my point..........also this is one of those instances where stats don't explain the whole story

    Lin is not perfect, but do you really want to be the franchise who gave up on him twice if he can improve on those numbers that 2016 put up?

    Also can you please give us some names that would be better and cheaper at this point ?

    Another point is we are all giving people excuses that Harden can improve he is so young, same with Parsons, Asik, even most of our PF core if Mchale just get a proper off season with the the team. Why is that excluding Lin? this is the first season he ever played starters minutes and he didn't do it single handily but he was a starting pg for a playoff team his first year. Look at the post all star numbers, those are very good numbers considering that his usage rate is very low compared to other pgs because we have superstar in Harden.

    Both Harden's and Lin's turnover would be a lot lower if Asik was able to catch bounce passes or alley oops. Every other game our guards get turnovers because of Asik's bad hands. But we all agree Asik will become better and more use to his new role and work on that. So Lin is in his 1 full nba season, give him another year and thats when we can make a good decision on whether he is our guy. There are plenty of servicable pgs that won championship if you have other pieces because when was the last time a superstar pg won it ?

  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    I'm not sure if I mentioned this before but:

    Jeremy Lin's post All-Star break per 36:
    17.2 ppg
    6.8 ast
    45% fg
    37.5% 3pt

    Why would you give up on someone who finished the season so strong? Because he got a chest contusion game 2 in playoffs? That doesn't make any sense unless we get Chris Paul. Even if we got Chris Paul, I would much rather sell Lin when his value is higher--and it willdefinitelyget higher if he can put up those numbers while avoiding serious injury.

    I'm not calling lin a bad player, but we can do better........that's my point..........also this is one of those instances where stats don't explain the whole story

  • 2016Champions says 11 months ago

    I'm not sure if I mentioned this before but:

    Jeremy Lin's post All-Star break per 36:
    17.2 ppg
    6.8 ast
    45% fg
    37.5% 3pt

    Why would you give up on someone who finished the season so strong? Because he got a chest contusion game 2 in playoffs? That doesn't make any sense unless we get Chris Paul. Even if we got Chris Paul, I would much rather sell Lin when his value is higher--and it willdefinitelyget higher if he can put up those numbers while avoiding serious injury.

  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    While there are a few options out there I agree with the second part of this.

    RBF, you're not wrong--but I do think Lin has it in him to improve--quite a bit--and the addition of Howard would certainly accelerate that. I think we are in a win-win here. If we move Lin and get a PG that is ready to play at the level we are all looking for then great--and hopefully Jeremy winds up somewhere he can finish developing. If he stays, then we get the pleasure of watching him grow into the PG we all want him to be. He has flaws, but I wouldn't call them fatal. it's about him learning his strengths and weaknesses and fostering the former while diminishing the latter.

    JG I agree he has room for improvement and is capable of traveling some of that road. however I think our time is better spent on bev and lin's replacement. YES howard would help lin's development, but this isn't about trying to work on lin as much as it's about the rockets fielding the best possible lineup. lin is going to be a serviceable PG in the league. however is serviceable good enough? with howard we could probably hide lin's faults better, but why go that route when better options are available at a cheaper price?

  • thejohnnygold says 11 months ago

    Which upgrade is currently available at PG?

    Give Lin one more season AND a legitimate offensive big man to work with before passing judgement.

    While there are a few options out there I agree with the second part of this.

    RBF, you're not wrong--but I do think Lin has it in him to improve--quite a bit--and the addition of Howard would certainly accelerate that. I think we are in a win-win here. If we move Lin and get a PG that is ready to play at the level we are all looking for then great--and hopefully Jeremy winds up somewhere he can finish developing. If he stays, then we get the pleasure of watching him grow into the PG we all want him to be. He has flaws, but I wouldn't call them fatal. it's about him learning his strengths and weaknesses and fostering the former while diminishing the latter.

  • manmythlegend says 11 months ago Nope, doesn't ring a bell. Please enlighten me on this point guard with the two first names and the reasons why he would play alongside a ball-dominant backcourt mate in James Harden.
  • Steven says 11 months ago

    Which upgrade is currently available at PG?

    Give Lin one more season AND a legitimate offensive big man to work with before passing judgement.


    Ever heard of Chris Paul from Wake Forest? He is a FA PG.
  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    Which upgrade is currently available at PG?

    Give Lin one more season AND a legitimate offensive big man to work with before passing judgement.

    after the clippers resign cp3 Bledsoe will be available........calderon is a FA and can be had for a reasonable price and is better than lin just for starters. I don't need to see any more of lin to make a conclusion. his game has fatal flaws.

  • manmythlegend says 11 months ago Which upgrade is currently available at PG?

    Give Lin one more season AND a legitimate offensive big man to work with before passing judgement.
  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    I did see him bust out a couple of McHale's classics over the course of last season....

    not nearly often enough...........I know it's not popular to want lin traded. I rode the fence on him all season watching him play before I reached that conclusion. it didn't seem as if the rockets had many choices to replace him. however I believe that chance for an upgrade is available now. problem is moving lin's contract. he is owed 20 mil in the next 2 years even if only 16 of it will count against the cap. that's high for an average point guard. there are teams that would love to have him, but probably not at that price. this is why I think signing howard and moving lin in the transaction of a sign and trade is probably our best chance to rid the team of his contract. d'antonie loves lin help them reunite while freeing the cap space to chase other option is our A plan in my book

  • thejohnnygold says 11 months ago

    I did see him bust out a couple of McHale's classics over the course of last season....

  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    lin with a post game? that's an interesting thought. while I still believe lin should be moved, if he came up with a post game I do think it might help him. he is bigger than the average point guard and should in theory be able to shoot over the top. however if the rockets get a chance to move his contract it must be done b4 his value slips any further (IMO).

  • thejohnnygold says 11 months ago

    I think Dream should teach as many people as possible. The more players that can do what he did the better--it is awesome to see.

  • Steven says 11 months ago

    Judging by Amar'e's performance lately, Dream should offer him a refund.


    That's because of his failing knees. He was performing well until the knees gave out.
  • manmythlegend says 11 months ago Judging by Amar'e's performance lately, Dream should offer him a refund.
  • 2016Champions says 11 months ago

    I heard that Dream makes a ridiculous amount for his training sessions, for example Amare paid him $100,000 for two weeks, so trying to monopolize his services would cost a hefty sum.

  • Steven says 11 months ago

    Yeah, it takes time. Lebron worked on his post-game for years before he got to the point where you can't put guys like Rondo on him and get away with it.


    True. But it only took one summer with Hakeem for him to do that. The Rockets should sign "The Dream" to a coaches contract where he can only work with Rockets players under contract. That away his tips don't improve other players/teams.
  • 2016Champions says 11 months ago

    Yeah, it takes time. Lebron worked on his post-game for years before he got to the point where you can't put guys like Rondo on him and get away with it.

  • manmythlegend says 11 months ago That training video was from last offseason. It shows him trying to finish with his left hand; in the games I was able to watch, I don't recall him finishing even attempting a shot with his left hand. I guess it's going to take time.

    One thing I'd like him to eventually add to his arsenal is a post up game, a la Andre Miller. At 6'3 he's bigger and stronger than a number PGs. Not talking Dream Shake or Shaq-brute-strength stuff, just something where he can take advantage of his size; I recall he did it once against Nate Robinson in the XMas game vs Chicago.
  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    looks like lin needs to work on his putt-putt game too :lol:good video tho

  • Richards says 11 months ago

    true lin does have enough to be 6th man, but he makes to much for that. if he can't start then he should be traded. he did progress during the year, but not enough (IMO) to be considered starter material.

    He made more than what he contributed this year for sure. But I was told it was Alexander wish to have him. Maybe a business reason. I don't know. So whoever write the paycheck happy with it, what else can we say.

  • thejohnnygold says 11 months ago

    Cool video--thanks!

  • 2016Champions says 11 months ago

    Here's some of that:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ABdt2G7BDms#t=47s

  • manmythlegend says 11 months ago

    http://instagram.com/p/ZV5OO5OP0Q/

    The Asian Bane! gogo fighting!!

    I'd rather see a picture of him in the middle of shooting a thousand treys and working on his dribbling... :blink: :ph34r: :huh:

  • 2016Champions says 11 months ago

    http://instagram.com/p/ZV5OO5OP0Q/

    The Asian Bane! gogo fighting!!

  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    @manmythlegend

    I agree with you that they may stand pat with the PF's we have. I expect much improvement from the group next year with a full summer of work in the gym. that's why I think help is on the horizon. some here want j-smith, milsap or others......I don't. I think we will be just fine at PF given time. I am more concerned with the PG position.

  • manmythlegend says 11 months ago

    true......but help is on the horizon at PF, not so at PG. sure bev is there, but lin makes to much to be a backup.

    No one knows for sure what plans Morey has to shore up power forward this offseason, so to say that help is on the horizon may be presumptuous. It wouldn't surprise me if they decide to stand pat with the players they have now, especially if Howard decides to sign with Houston.

    As for Lin, he is just a bad fit here in Houston. But to say he is a backup on this team may be a bit of a stretch. He averaged 15p and 6a on 45% shooting and 38% from 3 point land. Those aren't backup numbers; guys like Monta Ellis and Brandon Jennings are for some reason better regarded around the League, yet they have a tough time cracking the 40% shooting ceiling and look for their own shots before anyone elses. I would not take them, and a lot of other starting point guards in the NBA, over Lin.

    Point guard is the toughest position to master in the NBA because of the multiple responsibilities both offensively and defensively. What works against Lin is that he was primarily a shooting guard in college, so there is a learning curve. The tight leash that McHale has put on him will hopefully force Lin to work on taking care of the ball, becoming a more efficient outside shooter and better defender. Luckily those are all things that players can improve upon over the course of time. Whether or not Lin does that by next season is up to him; if not, a lot of people will get their wish and see Lin shipped off to another team before his $14 million contract kicks in.

  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    Lin deserves at least one more year since this was his first full season as starter and progressed well throughout the season.

    We need another superstar to contend but where is the best place to fill?

    Already got a superstar in back court, and ideally adding front court superstar is what we need.

    Lin, Parsons, Asik are very good teammates and role players.

    Lin proved he can at least be a sixth man.

    true lin does have enough to be 6th man, but he makes to much for that. if he can't start then he should be traded. he did progress during the year, but not enough (IMO) to be considered starter material.

  • Richards says 11 months ago

    Lin deserves at least one more year since this was his first full season as starter and progressed well throughout the season.

    We need another superstar to contend but where is the best place to fill?

    Already got a superstar in back court, and ideally adding front court superstar is what we need.

    Lin, Parsons, Asik are very good teammates and role players.

    Lin proved he can at least be a sixth man.

  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    Now it only seems fair to apply the same standard to Lin as Harden gets....Lin had all the same excuses as Harden plus this is his true first full year playing....It was a little bumpy, but the guy has great attitude and the mind and character to get better. He'll never be Steve Nash, but how many are?

    I'm willing to withhold judgement...We've been over this and the options available for replacing him outside of CP3 and Bledsoe are slim....I believe he'll make us forget about wanting to replace him at all.

    I know there aren't many options for replacing him. however the rockets should try because he can't get the job done. he did make some progress this year, but not nearly enough to warrant settling in as the permanent starter......his grade for this year......C-

  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    The PF rotation is the weakest link, not Lin. Even though I agree that his season didn't meet everyone's expectations (including his), I don't see him as a weak link, maybe not a strong one, but definitely not weak.

    true......but help is on the horizon at PF, not so at PG. sure bev is there, but lin makes to much to be a backup.

  • ale11 says 11 months ago

    I agree that's what he needs to be, but disagree that he can become that. I know it's an unpopular view, but I don't believe lin is the answer at the point guard position. unless he is able to make the type of leap he did in NY he should be seen as trade bait. I was not happy with the year he had. a chain is only as strong as the weakest link......he is our weak link

    The PF rotation is the weakest link, not Lin. Even though I agree that his season didn't meet everyone's expectations (including his), I don't see him as a weak link, maybe not a strong one, but definitely not weak.

  • thejohnnygold says 11 months ago

    I agree that's what he needs to be, but disagree that he can become that. I know it's an unpopular view, but I don't believe lin is the answer at the point guard position. unless he is able to make the type of leap he did in NY he should be seen as trade bait. I was not happy with the year he had. a chain is only as strong as the weakest link......he is our weak link

    Now it only seems fair to apply the same standard to Lin as Harden gets....Lin had all the same excuses as Harden plus this is his true first full year playing....It was a little bumpy, but the guy has great attitude and the mind and character to get better. He'll never be Steve Nash, but how many are?

    I'm willing to withhold judgement...We've been over this and the options available for replacing him outside of CP3 and Bledsoe are slim....I believe he'll make us forget about wanting to replace him at all.

  • rockets best fan says 11 months ago

    Lin's success with the Rockets will be dependent on his ability to evolve into an efficient, pass first point guard who can play solid defense. Scoring will be a tertiary concern for him. We will not see Linsanity in Houston, especially if the Rockets add that precious 2nd All Star.

    Ballhandling and 3 point shooting need to be his focal points in the offseason. I expect a lean, mean Lin in 2013-14, since he will know what his role is with this team and what they expect from him.

    I agree that's what he needs to be, but disagree that he can become that. I know it's an unpopular view, but I don't believe lin is the answer at the point guard position. unless he is able to make the type of leap he did in NY he should be seen as trade bait. I was not happy with the year he had. a chain is only as strong as the weakest link......he is our weak link

  • manmythlegend says 11 months ago Lin's success with the Rockets will be dependent on his ability to evolve into an efficient, pass first point guard who can play solid defense. Scoring will be a tertiary concern for him. We will not see Linsanity in Houston, especially if the Rockets add that precious 2nd All Star.

    Ballhandling and 3 point shooting need to be his focal points in the offseason. I expect a lean, mean Lin in 2013-14, since he will know what his role is with this team and what they expect from him.
  • RollingWave says 11 months ago

    well, even RSPM had him as our 3rd best starter, Beverly rated higher than him though. (only non starter to do so.)

    Harden: +5.56 (6th in the league.)

    Asik: +1.96 (similar player in this range, Paul George, Kevin Garnett, DeAndre Jordan, David West, Andre Iguodala, Kyrie Irving.)

    Lin: +0.78 (similar in this range : Jeff Teague, Monta Ellis, Thabo Sefolosha, Jimmy Butler)

    Parsons: +0.49 (similar range : Z-Bo, JR Smith.)

    RSPM is very much focused on tangible stats though, which probably doesn't do Parsons justice, it also doesn't take minutes played into very heavy consideration (it's weighted very light). and unlike Win Share, it doesn't judge on defense and offense rating. I actually think Win Share's a better approach, though both have enough merits to keep in context, if the two disagree then you should consider further, if both agree that's pretty close to about where that player is IMHO. and for Lin at least, they pretty much agree that he's had a solid year. (right around average in Winshare, slightly above in RSPM)

    Some notable PG under the Jeremy Lin line in both ranking.

    Isaiah Thomas

    Jrue Holiday

    Steve Nash

    Damian Lillard

    Ray Felton

    Mo Williams

    Grevis Vasquez

    Others with at least one end being lower

    Mario Chalmers (RSPM)

    Darren Collison (RSPM)

    Kemba Walker (WIn Share)

    Brandon Jennings (Win Share)

    Ricky Rubio (Win Share, but he is one guy where the 2 stats disagree massively. as RSPM sees him as great.)

    Now, a few of those PG clearly sucks (Felton / Williams) but this list seem to suggest that Lin's comfortably in the middle of the pack in terms of PG, guys like Teague / Dragic is better but it's not apparent if the margin is that big, guys like Calderon is better but that seems mostly a result of him being developed versus still developing younger PGs.

    The elephant in the room is Kyle Lowry, whom by rate is awesome in both ends (he's #20th on RSPM!!! and pretty good in Win Share too) but it's like the 3rd team he's on and he's gotten into conflict on all 3 team, lost the job to Conley in Memphis, fought McHale and lost out to Dragic in Houston, and then was really being replaced by Calderon in Toronto until the later was traded. I'd guess a bad character case can be made here.

    In short, see Lin as what he is, which is a average PG that could go either way. now, 8M for average PG is a little bit much, but the average NBA pay is also 6M, so it's marginal at best. Yes, if you could somehow get Chris Paul, there's no way you don't, which doesn't say much, since there's only about 3 other PG in the league where you would consider seriously to not take Paul over. but folks assuming that you'd grab a huge upgrade of a PG for same or less money is kidding themselves in general.

  • 2016Champions says 11 months ago

    Great recent article/podcast where Daryl Morey speaks very highly of Jeremy Lin's season:http://houston.cbslocal.com/2013/05/08/daryl-morey-gives-vote-of-confidence-to-jeremy-lin/

    A few things I got from that podcast:

    • According to Morey's statistics, Jeremy was our third best player.
    • Lin was the 5th best pick and roll guy in the league.
    • People are focusing way too much on Lin's performance in the playoffs which was greatly hindered by his injury.

    He didn't even mention how Lin played the first half of the season not 100% because he came off knee surgery. The fact Lin was our third best player despite his slow start says alot to me, because in my mind that means Chandler Parsons was a distant forth which isn't a knock on Parsons as much as it is praise for Lin.

    I like that Jeremy Lin is a "no excuses" kind of guy though, he thinks more about his sub-par performance more than his good performances this season, and his number one goal this off-season is to improve his body to avoid injuries:http://www.csnhouston.com/video/

  • RollingWave says 11 months ago

    Hopefully the Rockets won't make that similar mistake with Lin's overall playing time. Beverley needs to play more, but that should come at the expense of the young 'bigs.' Lin needs to play now because if he is to be a part of the team's future, he needs to take the lumps with his teammates.

    Well Kevin McHale probably read your post ;)

  • thenit says 11 months ago

    I agree that Lin needs to get refined, and needs to work on a lot of things this summer. I think he was aware of his lefthand driblle but just didn't have time to work on it due to the knee surgery during the off-season. He worked on his shooting during the season and has improved a lot on that aspect. I also agree that we need to let him play even if he gets killed by Westbrook, because we aren't winning the championship even if we miracously would win this series, we won't go anywhere. So you rather give players the experience that are going to be here for the long haul. Worst case is that we will know his defiencies and get a better picture of him the 2nd year playoffs and see if there is an improvement on the players development.

  • Rahat Huq says 11 months ago

    He needs to understand the flaws in his game by having them exposed, as they were on Sunday. He needs to see why a point guard must have nuance in his arsenal and must be able to play at different speeds. He needs to see why he must learn to drive left and why he must learn to be effective even when unable to get a first step on his man. He needs to see just how far he still needs to go in the area of skill development.

    Do you think he doesn't understand all that and much more about his game? He's out there "doing and suffering," but you're talking about him as if he were a moron! I have to chalk that tone up to playoff frustration--however, I think we need to maintain perspective on the people on the team and their skills and self-awareness and internal drive to improve--and most of them have quite a lot of all those qualities. Lin certainly does, and I'll bet Harden does also. Patience, my young Padwan!

    Kevin

    I don't know if he does or doesn't, but I hope if he doesn't, he becomes aware of it. Many players are often unaware of their flaws because they rarely are exposed. In the case of Lin, he can usually just blow right past his man and get right to the hoop. That's not the case against OKC where 1) he can't blow past Russell Westbrook and 2) if he does, Ibaka and Perkins are waiting. He has to learn other ways to be effective, i.e. Chris Paul basically has just one knee and rarely tries to drive all the way in to the hoop but he still picks teams apart playing slowly.

  • Futureinterest says 11 months ago I thought it was a good piece. Lin detractors don't let him have a bad game without jumping all over him. He is going to have bad games... Every player not named LeBron has bad games. It's unfortunate that he's had a few clunkers with the brightest of lights on the team... But he's not the worst offender and certainly not alone. The OP is indeed preaching patience, not to Lin but to everyone that reads this, my young Padawan!
  • kevingan says 11 months ago

    He needs to understand the flaws in his game by having them exposed, as they were on Sunday. He needs to see why a point guard must have nuance in his arsenal and must be able to play at different speeds. He needs to see why he must learn to drive left and why he must learn to be effective even when unable to get a first step on his man. He needs to see just how far he still needs to go in the area of skill development.

    Do you think he doesn't understand all that and much more about his game? He's out there "doing and suffering," but you're talking about him as if he were a moron! I have to chalk that tone up to playoff frustration--however, I think we need to maintain perspective on the people on the team and their skills and self-awareness and internal drive to improve--and most of them have quite a lot of all those qualities. Lin certainly does, and I'll bet Harden does also. Patience, my young Padwan!

    Kevin