Is Thad Young really an upgrade?

You will be prompted to login with your forum username. Please login and return to this page to leave a comment.

• 2016Champions says 3 months ago

  With the added depth, McHale could manage the minutes closer to what Popovich is doing in San Antonio (only Parker plays more than 29 minutes)--this should greatly lower the risk of injury.

  For anyone interested, here are the list of NBA injuries so far:http://www.cbssports.com/nba/injuries

• 2016Champions says 3 months ago

  Chances are that we will be able to resign Deng for about $8-10m per year. We can lock Parsons up on a new deal and then sell him on the idea of being our Ginobili (Parsons has already said he likes himself being the facilitator in the 2nd unit so it's plausible imo). Deng will start at the 3, for defensive purposes, then slide over to the 4 when Parsons comes in.

• BenQueens says 3 months ago

  Then why trade for a $14 million player if the dude isn't starting???

  It might be the best bang for the buck given that we have $8M of fallow salary on the bench, and that $14M can come off the books next year.

• Cooper says 3 months ago

  Oh yeah, I picture Deng guarding D Jordan of the Clippers and any big man the Spurs decide to put in the lineup when we match up with them.
  
  LaMarcus will kill Deng.
  
  No thanks...........

  In what world would you put Deng on deandre Jordan? Lamarcus killed everyone else we put on him so nothing new there. Now having deng to guard Durant Batum Thompson etc would be a real asset but lets ignore that and throw out meaningless thoughts of him guarding deandre Jordan that makes perfect sense.
• rocketrick says 3 months ago Then why trade for a $14 million player if the dude isn't starting???
• 2016Champions says 3 months ago

  You're sarcasm is much appreciated, it really brings spice to the conversation and everyone loves spicy conversations, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that Deng will start over Jones.

• rocketrick says 3 months ago Oh yeah, I picture Deng guarding D Jordan of the Clippers and any big man the Spurs decide to put in the lineup when we match up with them.
  
  LaMarcus will kill Deng.
  
  No thanks...........
• 2016Champions says 3 months ago

  We shouldn't be looking at this as an upgrade over Jones or Parsons. The player who's going to be losing the most minutes from Young's arrival would be Omri Casspi, and as much as I like Casspi in our offense I still have to say Young is a significant upgrade over Casspi. Not only would he be an upgrade but he would also give us the flexibility to rest Parsons when his back is flaring up, and Houston fans of all people should know that playing through back spasms can lead to something much, much, worse.

  Back spasms, if ignored and aggravated, can eventual develop into sciatica. Once a player gets sciatica in his lower back his career is practically over, the support in his lower spine becomes compromised and there's no surgery or anything that can make it good as new even in today's day an age--the only way is to stop it early. Unfortunately for Parsons and the Houston Rockets, "early" would pretty much mean now.

  Parsons shouldn't play until his back spasms are completely gone, and if it's one of those things where it keeps coming back no matter how much rest he gives it, there's a chance Parsons will need to get surgery lower back surgery--similar to the surgery Dwight got which had a 9-12 month recovery period (I think Dwight came back in 5 months though which was insane).

  So yeah, Thaddeus Young makes sense for a multitude of reasons:

  - We can rest Parsons more. We don't want Parsons to make the same mistake T-Mac (or Larry Bird) did.

  - We need a perimeter defender and Young is a good defender (DRAPM of 1.7--only Josh Smith, Al-Farouq Aminu and Kirilenko was higher among stretch 4's last season)

  - He gives us more depth at the 3 and 4

  - Regardless of whether he starts or comes off the bench, he will be eating mostly into Casspi's minutes and he's a HUGE upgrade over the underrated "Great Casspi".

  Luol Deng would be a great addition to the Rockets for these very same reasons. Not only would he give us depth at the 3 and 4, but he would also give us depth at the 2. Morey has said he is a big fan of players who can play multiple positions like this, it gives the roster a lot more flexibility to deal with injuries and match-ups.

• Buckko says 4 months ago

  The Lebron meme is funny.

  He's already thinking ahead of scheduled.

• thejohnnygold says 4 months ago

  We also have to consider the likelihood that Morey will do the right thing by Parsons and give him a new contract as opposed to exercising the team option that never would have been there if Parsons had a competent agent, so really whatever cap space we have would be less than the MLE that cap space would deprive us of (I think that's how it works, I'll find out later).

  I included that in my initial look at it--I went with an even $10M for Parsons. That was the problem. With Harden, Howard, and Parsons alone we were at $47M for three players. That leaves $16M for 10 players. We will still need a PG plus an entire bench. If we invest $10M in Young and still have T-Jones and Motie (roughly $6M) we will be scraping the bottom of the NBA barrel for the rest (even with our MLE). If we are going to be in that situation I'd rather it be for a legitimate star player and not Thaddeus Young.

  And to add a little speculation to the fold...I fully expect Terrence Jones to continue improving. I think Morey will pull the same move I expect him to pull with Parsons. Re-sign him ahead of schedule and negotiate a more cap-friendly contract in the process.

• RollingWave says 4 months ago

  I don't think this actually works.

  As of today our guarantee total for next year is 56m

  even if cap goes to 63, and Asik's salary is wiped out, you have a max contract room yes, except that the non-guarantee includes Beverley / Parsons / Smith / Casspi, I'm sure you'll keep the first 2 and probably the later two as well. that also cost you about 4m, so it's not a max space, and then your assuming it actually goes up to 63, which it might not.

  In all likelihood, you'll end up trading a Lin for that max guy either way, now if that guy is Lebron sure you trade anyone on this roster not named Dwight for him. (really, even if you trade Harden for Lebron we probably still win a chip.) might as well as several small contracts to give yourself more options, since I feel the likelihood of Lebron is ridiculaously low at best, and if he really want to come, you move mountains and earth to make it happen. that can wait, blow all your assets to have folks take contracts off your hand, it doesn't matter. but you probably should make your moves assuming that's a very very low probability at best.

• 2016Champions says 4 months ago

  I did not take that into consideration--I was just adding Asik's $8.3M to whatever we would already have had. Given that the rest of our team is pretty much set I'd say the majority of our off-season money goes towards a back-up center and guy like Ariza....unless Covington makes a leap :) . Sadly, we kind of need a "bad contract" so that we have the option to make a trade for a good player without having to give up Lin. After Asik he is the only guy on the roster who is "available" that makes significant money.

  Every time I go to the trade machine I get frustrated because Morey is doing too good of a job. :lol:

  We also have to consider the likelihood that Morey will do the right thing by Parsons and give him a new contract as opposed to exercising the team option that never would have been there if Parsons had a competent agent, so really whatever cap space we have would be less than the MLE that cap space would deprive us of (I think that's how it works, I'll find out later).

• 2016Champions says 4 months ago

  I just saw this and thought I would share it:

  

• thejohnnygold says 4 months ago

  I did not take that into consideration--I was just adding Asik's $8.3M to whatever we would already have had. Given that the rest of our team is pretty much set I'd say the majority of our off-season money goes towards a back-up center and guy like Ariza....unless Covington makes a leap :) . Sadly, we kind of need a "bad contract" so that we have the option to make a trade for a good player without having to give up Lin. After Asik he is the only guy on the roster who is "available" that makes significant money.

  Every time I go to the trade machine I get frustrated because Morey is doing too good of a job. :lol:

• 2016Champions says 4 months ago

  Didn't want to make a new thread since we already have so much chatter going about trades and upgrades so I'll just post this HERE.
  
  That is Henry Abbott's most recent article and it is about guys who are playing great defense--at least, according to +/- numbers and the eye test.
  
  Omri Casspi gets top billing on this list and the evidence is compelling. Here's the text for the hyperlink-averse:
  
  

  "Omri Casspi
  The resurrection of the pioneering NBA Israeli's game has been told as one of stroking 3s and attacking the rim.
  But something is certainly happening on defense, too, which may overshadow all of that.
  With Casspi on the floor, the Rockets have given up 94.8 points per 100 possessions, which is almost as good as the league-leading Pacers. When he's on the bench, the team has given up 104.1 points per 100 possessions, which is pedestrian.
  The defensive bottom line is that the Rockets have gotten 9.3 points worse on D when Casspi checks out. The number could be thick with early-season noise, but it's eye-opening nonetheless.
  Looking at two-man combinations, you can see that almost any Rocket with Casspi is effective. With Terrence Jones and Casspi in, the Rockets only give up 85.8 points per 100 possessions. With Patrick Beverley: a stingy 90.6. Seven of the top 12 Rockets defensive combinations feature Casspi. Dwight Howard appears in that list only once ... with Casspi. Meanwhile, there aren't many Rocket lineups that perform well on D without Casspi.
  It's possible his defensive qualities are overstated by these stats. But I don't think it's possible he's bad on defense.
  I'd also suggest it's a long shot the plus/minus obsessed Rockets are eager to sit him. Casspi is also helping the team on offense. Terrence Jones and Chandler Parsons have been similarly effective. Which makes you wonder, as Omer Asik trade rumors heat up ... does it really make sense to trade for a shooting forward such as Ryan Anderson? Maybe so, but if playing Anderson means limiting minutes for Casspi, Jones or Parsons, it's tough to imagine the Rockets getting more effective in the process."

  I think we can validate this opinion with our own eye tests. Casspi has played well against starters and bench players alike and fits in with any group of Rockets we throw out there. As noted in the article, there is just no need to add to this mix (even with Parsons' iffy back) because it will take minutes away from three very effective/productive players. We must not forget that we have D-Mo and Greg Smith who can fill in when need be plus Garcia and Harden can move to the SF position if we need to shift SF's to PF. Our roster is extremely versatile outside of a few players.
  
  To bring it back to Thaddeus Young, I'm just not sold on him. Despite 2016's compelling case, I feel like using Asik to acquire Young is not the best move for us. As has been noted, his contract runs two years after this season at $9.4M and then $9.9M. Next year is not the issue. In the 2015-16 season, we will have $37M committed to Harden and Howard. Add to that the $10-$12M Parsons may get and we'll lowball it at $47M. Now, if we have Young on the roster that pushes us to $57M for 4 players....uh-oh. Isiah Canaan counts for another $1M so we are now at $58M.
  
  Jones, Motie, and Covington count for $6M ($7.9M the year after). Bev has a $1.2M qualifying offer which I presume will get picked up. This moves us to $65.2M for 9 players).
  
  Without getting too involved in cap holds, etc. I think we can all see where this is going. Yes, he could be traded, but that is not a valid way to look at it in my opinion--let's look at what we can control. If we bring in Thaddeus Young our hands will be tied and our roster will quickly become bereft of the talent and depth which we currently enjoy. I know there can be tinkering here and there, but are we sure we want to trade Asik for a $10M Parsons insurance policy? There are lots of productive hybrid F's in this league.
  
  This goes back to one of my previous posts. The Rockets must be very careful about what they bring back in this trade. The smartest move will involve expirings and picks. Almost anything else becomes a Trojan Horse that will destroy us from the inside out.
  
  Let's not forget about free agency. Yes, losing Asik for the remainder of this season without bringing much immediate help in return hurts a little. However, take a peak towards free agency. With Asik off the books we will have an extra $8.3M to play with...let's see who is available...
  
  In no particular order...
  Omri Casspi
  Shawn Marion
  Luol Deng
  Shane Battier
  Danny Granger
  Caron Butler
  Trevor Ariza
  Marvin Williams
  Chris Singleton
  Rashard Lewis
  Pau Gasol
  Al-Farouq Aminu
  Matt Bonner
  Plus anyone who opts out of their contract (to be determined...)
  
  Now, this list has plenty of pros and cons and good fits/bad fits. The point is there are certainly some opportunities to snag a couple of nice pieces below market value.
  
  I would love to bring Ariza back. He is doing well in Washington playing off the ball and the Wiz may not bring him back since they are loaded at SF. Casspi, Marion, Singleton are also nice choices that won't lock us into $10M contracts.
  
  Bonus--we scored extra draft picks in that Asik trade and can use those to upgrade the team via trade or stash some euro kids overseas! We keep our books clear, our roster deep, and our future bright. It's a win all around! (Especially if we get a decent expiring back-up center in the trade, but I can live without that.)
  
  I know it would seem like we are giving Asik away (and in a way we are), but Morey surely made his peace with this possibility when he signed Dwight. We've got guys to cover for Parsons this season and can add to that over the Summer. The salary cap has become the equivalent of the king on a chess board--it must be protected at all costs. Otherwise, it is game over and we must start anew.

  Have you accounted for the $63m+ projection for next year's salary cap? I think we will have a lot more than $8.3m to spend on a free agent, but I really like your train of thought here. I too have thought about all this and looked at the free agent list, and Ariza was an option that stood out to me too. For what it's worth Ariza's DRAPM is 1.1 which is very good for his position. With him and a replacement back up center, I can see ROX being 2015 champions, but the only problem with that is we are trying to win now.
• RollingWave says 4 months ago

  I'm not sure if Young is really a plus defender at the 3, he is a good overall defender though. and I think from a defensive POV we probably need a wing more closer to 2/3 than 3/4 .

  I do agree we need someone at least mildly competent to take over Brewer's spot, but those guys are dime in a dozen really.

  As for the contract, well not unlike Lin, if you have Young playing as a main backup for multiple position 8-9 m is not outrageous, the question is overall playing time, if he gets well over 20 min a game, then 8-9 m is perfectablly justifiable for a good player.

  There's a decent amount of options on the Rockets part, I'm just not sure if Asik's market is actually that wide given that the type of teams that there is a limited number of teams that need / want Asik and that we're actually willing to give Asik to.

  For example, if this was two years ago , I'd think the most likely trade would be Asik for Perkins + Perry Jones + a 1st. obviously that can't happen now.

• rockets best fan says 4 months ago

  both 2016's case and JG's case carry weight, but I have to go with JG. T-Young's contract is a limiting factor. while I'm not opposed to another player upgrading the roll Casspi plays for this team, that player must have a contract we can live with. I believe Morey is reeling in assets to make a bigger play later. in which case draft picks are more valuable. if draft picks are not available, I expect him to go for players on expiring deals, but still have the ability to help us so that it offers the freedom to either resign them or allow them to walk without locking us in on money we don't want. at this point I think it's fair to say we want to stick Asik in the eastern conference at all cost. the possibility of him landing with one of the western contenders must be weighed. if it means taking a little less for Asik to ensure he will land east......I say do it. at this point that has become a factor considering how many western teams could use his services right now. if he were to land in N.O., Dallas, Portland, OKC or GSW that could become a problem we don't want to create. we must be sure the team we send him to will hold him at least through the end of the year. getting back to T-Young everything says go except the restrictions cause by that contract. however that alone is reason enough for a no go. now if we can talk Hinkie into including that first round N.O. pick he owns.........that would remove my concerns as for as the contract of Young, but it's unlikely he will do that

• thejohnnygold says 4 months ago

  Didn't want to make a new thread since we already have so much chatter going about trades and upgrades so I'll just post this HERE.

  That is Henry Abbott's most recent article and it is about guys who are playing great defense--at least, according to +/- numbers and the eye test.

  Omri Casspi gets top billing on this list and the evidence is compelling. Here's the text for the hyperlink-averse:

  "Omri Casspi
  The resurrection of the pioneering NBA Israeli's game has been told as one of stroking 3s and attacking the rim.
  
  But something is certainly happening on defense, too, which may overshadow all of that.
  
  With Casspi on the floor, the Rockets have given up 94.8 points per 100 possessions, which is almost as good as the league-leading Pacers. When he's on the bench, the team has given up 104.1 points per 100 possessions, which is pedestrian.
  
  The defensive bottom line is that the Rockets have gotten 9.3 points worse on D when Casspi checks out. The number could be thick with early-season noise, but it's eye-opening nonetheless.
  
  Looking at two-man combinations, you can see that almost any Rocket with Casspi is effective. With Terrence Jones and Casspi in, the Rockets only give up 85.8 points per 100 possessions. With Patrick Beverley: a stingy 90.6. Seven of the top 12 Rockets defensive combinations feature Casspi. Dwight Howard appears in that list only once ... with Casspi. Meanwhile, there aren't many Rocket lineups that perform well on D without Casspi.
  
  It's possible his defensive qualities are overstated by these stats. But I don't think it's possible he's bad on defense.
  
  I'd also suggest it's a long shot the plus/minus obsessed Rockets are eager to sit him. Casspi is also helping the team on offense. Terrence Jones and Chandler Parsons have been similarly effective. Which makes you wonder, as Omer Asik trade rumors heat up ... does it really make sense to trade for a shooting forward such as Ryan Anderson? Maybe so, but if playing Anderson means limiting minutes for Casspi, Jones or Parsons, it's tough to imagine the Rockets getting more effective in the process."

  I think we can validate this opinion with our own eye tests. Casspi has played well against starters and bench players alike and fits in with any group of Rockets we throw out there. As noted in the article, there is just no need to add to this mix (even with Parsons' iffy back) because it will take minutes away from three very effective/productive players. We must not forget that we have D-Mo and Greg Smith who can fill in when need be plus Garcia and Harden can move to the SF position if we need to shift SF's to PF. Our roster is extremely versatile outside of a few players.

  To bring it back to Thaddeus Young, I'm just not sold on him. Despite 2016's compelling case, I feel like using Asik to acquire Young is not the best move for us. As has been noted, his contract runs two years after this season at $9.4M and then $9.9M. Next year is not the issue. In the 2015-16 season, we will have $37M committed to Harden and Howard. Add to that the $10-$12M Parsons may get and we'll lowball it at $47M. Now, if we have Young on the roster that pushes us to $57M for 4 players....uh-oh. Isiah Canaan counts for another $1M so we are now at $58M.

  Jones, Motie, and Covington count for $6M ($7.9M the year after). Bev has a $1.2M qualifying offer which I presume will get picked up. This moves us to $65.2M for 9 players).

  Without getting too involved in cap holds, etc. I think we can all see where this is going. Yes, he could be traded, but that is not a valid way to look at it in my opinion--let's look at what we can control. If we bring in Thaddeus Young our hands will be tied and our roster will quickly become bereft of the talent and depth which we currently enjoy. I know there can be tinkering here and there, but are we sure we want to trade Asik for a $10M Parsons insurance policy? There are lots of productive hybrid F's in this league.

  This goes back to one of my previous posts. The Rockets must be very careful about what they bring back in this trade. The smartest move will involve expirings and picks. Almost anything else becomes a Trojan Horse that will destroy us from the inside out.

  Let's not forget about free agency. Yes, losing Asik for the remainder of this season without bringing much immediate help in return hurts a little. However, take a peak towards free agency. With Asik off the books we will have an extra $8.3M to play with...let's see who is available...

  In no particular order...

  Omri Casspi

  Shawn Marion

  Luol Deng

  Shane Battier

  Danny Granger

  Caron Butler

  Trevor Ariza

  Marvin Williams

  Chris Singleton

  Rashard Lewis

  Pau Gasol

  Al-Farouq Aminu

  Matt Bonner

  Plus anyone who opts out of their contract (to be determined...)

  Now, this list has plenty of pros and cons and good fits/bad fits. The point is there are certainly some opportunities to snag a couple of nice pieces below market value.

  I would love to bring Ariza back. He is doing well in Washington playing off the ball and the Wiz may not bring him back since they are loaded at SF. Casspi, Marion, Singleton are also nice choices that won't lock us into $10M contracts.

  Bonus--we scored extra draft picks in that Asik trade and can use those to upgrade the team via trade or stash some euro kids overseas! We keep our books clear, our roster deep, and our future bright. It's a win all around! (Especially if we get a decent expiring back-up center in the trade, but I can live without that.)

  I know it would seem like we are giving Asik away (and in a way we are), but Morey surely made his peace with this possibility when he signed Dwight. We've got guys to cover for Parsons this season and can add to that over the Summer. The salary cap has become the equivalent of the king on a chess board--it must be protected at all costs. Otherwise, it is game over and we must start anew.

• 2016Champions says 4 months ago

  Wow I didn't expect to get so much love for that post, thanks Rahut, thanks everyone, I really appreciate it!

  @DrewinAbilene I know exactly how you feel about wanting to keep Asik, and a big part of me feels exactly the same way, I love the idea of having 48 minutes of elite paint protection. I think Morey would love to keep Asik too if Asik wasn't demanding a trade and Parsons wasn't dealing with back spasms. Unfotunately, due to the reasons I mentioned earlier, I suspect that Asik will be traded within the next 9 days.

  Daryl Morey loves flexibility like a fat kid loves cake. According to Stein he is telling GM's that he will move Asik by Dec.19 because anyone traded before that date can be re-traded by the deadline (Feb 20th). Sucks for the new guy doesn't it? Whoever dons a Rockets uniform within the next 9 days will practically be on a 60 day trial, and if he doesn't prove himself a great fit for the Rockets within those 90 days he could be out the door once again. Think Thaddeus Young can fit on Chandler Parson's couch? Just kidding. I'm sure he will be a great fit... if he continues to make over 36% of his 3's.

• majik19 says 4 months ago

  The problem with Young is still that he would not command enough attention from the 3 point line. He's being touted as a Parson's fill-in, but does everyone realize he's only made 132 3's in his whole 6+ year career, at a 34% clip? As a comp, Terence Jones is shooting 40% and Parsons is shooting very close to that as well (small sample size alert) this year.

  With Casspi and Garcia (despite his struggles) playing, teams know they have to run them off the 3 point line. (This year: Casspi: 40% from 3, Garcia: 35% even struggling) With Young, I'm not so sure they will and then we lose space for Harden/Howard or Lin.

  That being said, the part I like the least about this deal is he has 3 years left on his contract at nearly 9 million/year. Do you really want to pay 9 million/year for a backup 3/4? And if we pay him 9 million/year, can we still pay Parsons a no doubt similar (if not more expensive) contract?

  I would much rather trade Asik for a backup 5, expiring contracts, and young assets (whether those are players or 1st/2nd rounders). We gain a little salary flexibility (which we know Morey manages as well as anyone) and some extra ammunition when just the right player comes available.

• Rahat Huq says 4 months ago

  2016: Nice job. I've cited your post on the front page.

• Red94 says 4 months ago New post: In defense of Thaddeus Young
  By: rahat huq
  
  

  I wrote back on Sunday that trading for Thad Young would be a mistake - that he wasn't enough of an upgrade over Terrence Jones to warrant losing Asik.  Forum member 2016Champions makes a compelling case in favor of Young arguing that, we shouldn't be looking at a Young trade as a replacement of Jones but rather of Omri Casspi:

  Quote:

  - We can rest Parsons more. We don't want Parsons to make the same mistake T-Mac (or Larry Bird) did.

  - We need a perimeter defender and Young is a good defender (DRAPM of 1.7--only Josh Smith, Al-Farouq Aminu and Kirilenko was higher among stretch 4's last season)

  - He gives us more depth at the 3 and 4

  - Regardless of whether he starts or comes off the bench, he will be eating mostly into Casspi's minutes and he's a HUGE upgrade over the underrated "Great Casspi".

  Additionally, he argues, Young provides depth as Parsons insurance.  We've seen the Rockets weather injuries to Jeremy Lin and James Harden because of interchangeability with Aaron Brooks; things have fallen apart without Parsons.  Also notice the cited DRAPM.  While I disagree with classifying Young as a "perimeter defender" as that data was compiled with him playing the '4', he's a plus defender.

  While I still think future draft considerations are the way to go, Young seems to be a more viable option if viewed from this perspective.

• Fury says 4 months ago

  We shouldn't be looking at this as an upgrade over Jones or Parsons. The player who's going to be losing the most minutes from Young's arrival would be Omri Casspi, and as much as I like Casspi in our offense I still have to say Young is a significant upgrade over Casspi. Not only would he be an upgrade but he would also give us the flexibility to rest Parsons when his back is flaring up, and Houston fans of all people should know that playing through back spasms can lead to something much, much, worse.

  Back spasms, if ignored and aggravated, can eventual develop into sciatica. Once a player gets sciatica in his lower back his career is practically over, the support in his lower spine becomes compromised and there's no surgery or anything that can make it good as new even in today's day an age--the only way is to stop it early. Unfortunately for Parsons and the Houston Rockets, "early" would pretty much mean now.

  Parsons shouldn't play until his back spasms are completely gone, and if it's one of those things where it keeps coming back no matter how much rest he gives it, there's a chance Parsons will need to get surgery lower back surgery--similar to the surgery Dwight got which had a 9-12 month recovery period (I think Dwight came back in 5 months though which was insane).

  So yeah, Thaddeus Young makes sense for a multitude of reasons:

  - We can rest Parsons more. We don't want Parsons to make the same mistake T-Mac (or Larry Bird) did.

  - We need a perimeter defender and Young is a good defender (DRAPM of 1.7--only Josh Smith, Al-Farouq Aminu and Kirilenko was higher among stretch 4's last season)

  - He gives us more depth at the 3 and 4

  - Regardless of whether he starts or comes off the bench, he will be eating mostly into Casspi's minutes and he's a HUGE upgrade over the underrated "Great Casspi".

  Okay, I like this analysis of how this affects the Parsons situation. Casspi probably wouldn't lose any or many minutes in the interim as Parsons is given the opportunity to rest his back.

  However, I am greatly intrigued by the prospect of Spencer Hawes next to Howard. Hawes can play backup C, and he'd also do well on the court with Dwight given his stretch-the-floor ability.

  Besides Asik, what would it take for the 76er's to give us both Hawes and Young? Would D-Mo be enough? I'm not convinced that he would be.

• Buckko says 4 months ago I hate greens inconstancy, at least you know you're always getting a good performance by young.
• feelingsupersonic says 4 months ago

  We shouldn't be looking at this as an upgrade over Jones or Parsons. The player who's going to be losing the most minutes from Young's arrival would be Omri Casspi, and as much as I like Casspi in our offense I still have to say Young is a significant upgrade over Casspi. Not only would he be an upgrade but he would also give us the flexibility to rest Parsons when his back is flaring up, and Houston fans of all people should know that playing through back spasms can lead to something much, much, worse.
  
  Back spasms, if ignored and aggravated, can eventual develop into sciatica. Once a player gets sciatica in his lower back his career is practically over, the support in his lower spine becomes compromised and there's no surgery or anything that can make it good as new even in today's day an age--the only way is to stop it early. Unfortunately for Parsons and the Houston Rockets, "early" would pretty much mean now.
  
  Parsons shouldn't play until his back spasms are completely gone, and if it's one of those things where it keeps coming back no matter how much rest he gives it, there's a chance Parsons will need to get surgery lower back surgery--similar to the surgery Dwight got which had a 9-12 month recovery period (I think Dwight came back in 5 months though which was insane).
  
  So yeah, Thaddeus Young makes sense for a multitude of reasons:
  - We can rest Parsons more. We don't want Parsons to make the same mistake T-Mac (or Larry Bird) did.
  - We need a perimeter defender and Young is a good defender (DRAPM of 1.7--only Josh Smith, Al-Farouq Aminu and Kirilenko was higher among stretch 4's last season)
  - He gives us more depth at the 3 and 4
  - Regardless of whether he starts or comes off the bench, he will be eating mostly into Casspi's minutes and he's a HUGE upgrade over the underrated "Great Casspi".
  

  
  Quality post and I am intrigued by Young's prospects as a Rocket and more importantly Morey getting the better end of the deal. I still like Jeff Green a lot though.
• Drew in Abilene says 4 months ago

  So yeah, Thaddeus Young makes sense for a multitude of reasons:

  - We can rest Parsons more. We don't want Parsons to make the same mistake T-Mac (or Larry Bird) did.

  - We need a perimeter defender and Young is a good defender (DRAPM of 1.7--only Josh Smith, Al-Farouq Aminu and Kirilenko was higher among stretch 4's last season)

  - He gives us more depth at the 3 and 4

  - Regardless of whether he starts or comes off the bench, he will be eating mostly into Casspi's minutes and he's a HUGE upgrade over the underrated "Great Casspi".

  I think this is this best defense of the trade I've read. I love the idea of resting Parsons now so that he's as close to 100% as possible in the playoffs. I'm a big fan of players who can play well at either forward position. If the Rockets make this trade, I bet these are some of the reasons behind it.

  That being said, I'm still on the fence about trading Asik at all. I think marbony81110 and I agree that Asik as a backup would be very helpful later in the year. Once the playoffs begin, there will probably be several games in which Howard gets into early foul trouble. Without a defensive anchor to fill that void, the chances of Houston pulling out those games plummets. I trust that the offense can continue to dominate with Dwight on the bench, but I think the defense needs an elite rim protector at all times.

  I trust Morey's decision making, since he's worked some crazy magic in the past. If his evaluation is that Asik needs to go now, so be it. But if his search doesn't turn up an acceptable deal, I'll be more than happy to watch the Rockets roll with Howard and Asik.

• Cooper says 4 months ago I'd say Philly qualifies as a bad team too. So not much of an argument there.
• Buckko says 4 months ago Well casspi was in Cleveland though so I doubt it that he just learn that skill. He just was on a bad team.
• RollingWave says 4 months ago

  Thad can't shoot the 3 like casspi.

  Casspi didn't shoot like Casspi until he got here, Young can shoot well enough, he's a good player, but not really our primarily need at this point

• Buckko says 4 months ago Thad can't shoot the 3 like casspi.
• 2016Champions says 4 months ago Thad at center? You can't be serious... I don't even feel comfortable with Jones at center and I would have Jones over Thad at center in a heart beat.
• marbony81110 says 4 months ago

  Let me first say that there are a lot of better basketball players out there than Asik, however, he is great at what he does; defense. I think Young for Asik would be a good trade. With either Jones or Young starting that leaves another good scorer and defender to play with the first and second units. If this trade were to happen, I think Thad Young would be a great fit with the second unit playing the center position. He would more than likely take a lot of minutes away from D-Mo since he mostly handles backup Center duties with Asik out and inevitable trade.

  Even with that said I still think keeping Asik to play great D as apart of the second unit or when Dwight gets in foul trouble is the best option even if he is unhappy about it. Having two elite defensive Centers is unheard of and the Rockets have that. Thad Young would be good, but keeping Asik would probably be better. Either way, the Rockets can make either work.

• 2016Champions says 4 months ago

  We shouldn't be looking at this as an upgrade over Jones or Parsons. The player who's going to be losing the most minutes from Young's arrival would be Omri Casspi, and as much as I like Casspi in our offense I still have to say Young is a significant upgrade over Casspi. Not only would he be an upgrade but he would also give us the flexibility to rest Parsons when his back is flaring up, and Houston fans of all people should know that playing through back spasms can lead to something much, much, worse.

  Back spasms, if ignored and aggravated, can eventual develop into sciatica. Once a player gets sciatica in his lower back his career is practically over, the support in his lower spine becomes compromised and there's no surgery or anything that can make it good as new even in today's day an age--the only way is to stop it early. Unfortunately for Parsons and the Houston Rockets, "early" would pretty much mean now.

  Parsons shouldn't play until his back spasms are completely gone, and if it's one of those things where it keeps coming back no matter how much rest he gives it, there's a chance Parsons will need to get surgery lower back surgery--similar to the surgery Dwight got which had a 9-12 month recovery period (I think Dwight came back in 5 months though which was insane).

  So yeah, Thaddeus Young makes sense for a multitude of reasons:

  - We can rest Parsons more. We don't want Parsons to make the same mistake T-Mac (or Larry Bird) did.

  - We need a perimeter defender and Young is a good defender (DRAPM of 1.7--only Josh Smith, Al-Farouq Aminu and Kirilenko was higher among stretch 4's last season)

  - He gives us more depth at the 3 and 4

  - Regardless of whether he starts or comes off the bench, he will be eating mostly into Casspi's minutes and he's a HUGE upgrade over the underrated "Great Casspi".

• blakecouey says 4 months ago

  Hawes yes, Turner and Young no. The only reason I don't want Young or Turner is that they deserve starter roles, and we couldn't give that to them, so it'd just create problems.

  It's a fun time of year isn't it? We're starting to get things going, figuring out our strengths/weaknesses and adjusting, and now we're looking for a trade partner to improve further by using an asset that has high value.

• RollingWave says 4 months ago

  Well, Turner is sort of an upgrade to Garcia I guess (and certainly Turner + Garcia is a huge upgrade to Garcia + Brewer.), but I think the problem with him is that at this stage of his career he is a lot like Asik, someone who's looking to prove himself long term , which would really just cause the same problem all over again. And really, advance stats have not been kind to him , even this year, his relative +/- on 82 game is not THAT impressive. (Hawes is though.)

  If anything, wouldn't Hawes make more sense? the problem is you have to try and extend him. but I think it's more likely to keep Hawe's contract within a reasonable range than Turner's.

  Like, Hawes is an exceptional 3rd big at this point, he has the range to work with anyone, and Dwight's fast enough to cover most PF in smaller stretches. the knock would be that we have to risk him in UFA next year.

  Hawes can rebound and pass, his defense as primary anchor is a problem but in a smaller role should be just fine.

  Also, Hawes is an ex-King, which automatically means he'll end up on this team ;)

  We do probably need a replacement wing for Brewer, though getting someone closer to Garcia than Brewer isn't THAT hard. espeically if we don't care about taking on slightly bloated contracts.

• rocketrick says 4 months ago

  i would take thad young and spencer hawes for asik and a future 1st rounder or D-mo

  
  I prefer Terrance Jones going forward, he has a much more Rockets friendly contract and he has seemingly turned a corner on his career.
  
  Maybe the Rockets trade Asik for Hawes and a couple of first round draft picks. Hawes could fill a backup role and has a decent 3 point shot from the corners for a 7 foot center. I believe Hawes is on the last year of his contract and becomes an unrestricted free agent at the end of the season.
• rockets best fan says 4 months ago

  Do any of you think Evan Turner would be possible? I'd be all over that.

  I like Turner..........I really do, but I think his numbers are inflated because he is a decent player on a bad team. besides I don't think he would be happy witha reserve role......hence we would have the same problem with him as Asik......he wants to start. I really don't see Turner coming here in trade. he doesn't help fill enough of the holes left by an Asik trade.

• Buckko says 4 months ago

  Do any of you think Evan Turner would be possible? I'd be all over that.

  I don't know how he would get minutes or touches in our system. We have our rotation pretty set and he plays the same position as harden. Not to mention would we have the space to resign him.

• Rahat Huq says 4 months ago

  Do any of you think Evan Turner would be possible? I'd be all over that.

• Buckko says 4 months ago Now that would be a bad trade, young is just another PF to sit on our bench and we would not be able to resign hawes while demo is under contract for a few more years and improving. However why does Greg Smith get no love.
• HazeWinkle says 4 months ago

  i would take thad young and spencer hawes for asik and a future 1st rounder or D-mo

• Cooper says 4 months ago Pretty sure Bledsoe would be restricted.
• NorEastern says 4 months ago
  
  

  I personally cannot think of a realistic trade for Asik that would bring equal value back to the Rockets. However, if Asik is dealt D-Mo will not be going anywhere. There is no better backup to Howard right now. I could possibly see Asik being traded at the deadline for picks, but only if Morey is comfortable with D-Mo as a backup, which may be doubtful. NBA teams are just not desperate enough right now to offer fair value. With Asik the Rockets could be fighting for a chip. Without?

• Drew in Abilene says 4 months ago

  Trying to be as unbiased and balanced as possible. I made a similar suggestion a few weeks ago and am playing off the fact that the Cavs want to move waiters and supposedly like Turner so that being said. How abouthttp://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=krs28q5 plus Memphis first round pick from Cleveland?

  Rockets Cavs 76ers

  PG Bev/Lin Irving/Jack MKW/Wroten

  SG Harden/Garcia Karasev/Miles Waiters/Anderson

  SF Parsons/Cassipi Turner/Clark Thompson/McGee

  PF Jones/DMo Thompson/Bennett Young/Allen

  C Howard/Varejo Bynum/Hawes Asik/Orton

  Rockets get back-up center + top 5 protected lottery guaranteed pick.

  76ers get a defensive anchor, a young shooting guard and a SF (to make money work)

  Cavs get Turner and Hawes to replace Varejo while maintaining cap flexibility for upcoming offseason.

  I really like Varejao as a player, though his history of injuries is disconcerting. That pick might be worthwhile, especially considering Morey's track record in finding quality players in the draft. Most proposed Asik trades strike me as either severely over-rating Asik's trade value or severely undervaluing him. This one seems closer to a happy middle ground. I still don't know if I'd pull the trigger on it, but it's intriguing.

  Back to the original post, I think a trade for Thad Young might fall into the same category as a feasible trade that isn't too outlandish. With that said, I'm still questioning whether Morey wants to trade for a piece to add to this core to make a championship run, or if this trade is for an asset to be shipped off for a final piece.

  All of that is on top of my belief that Asik will have way more value to the Rockets during the playoffs, when teams will try to get Howard in foul trouble early, especially if there's no capable backup available. I wouldn't put it past Morey to ride out this year with Asik to try to pry open the championship window a year early with two of the best interior defenders.

• timetodienow1234567 says 4 months ago

  An upgrade I would welcome is Eric Bledsoe. I think people forget that he is going to be a free agent, and with out Asik we will have enough for a max contact.

  Apart from him tearing his ACL and the Rockets being the only team willing to sign him to a 4 year max deal, there's NO way Bledseo becomes a Rocket.

  That has as much chance happening as us getting Durant or Davis.

• 2016Champions says 4 months ago

  An upgrade I would welcome is Eric Bledsoe. I think people forget that he is going to be a free agent, and with out Asik we will have enough for a max contact.

• pharmag says 4 months ago

  It's a decent trade but no team would give up a top 5 lottery pick for Asik

  My bad...mis typed that. Fixed it now.

• thenit says 4 months ago It's a decent trade but no team would give up a top 5 lottery pick for Asik
• pharmag says 4 months ago

  Trying to be as unbiased and balanced as possible. I made a similar suggestion a few weeks ago and am playing off the fact that the Cavs want to move waiters and supposedly like Turner so that being said. How abouthttp://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=krs28q5 plus Memphis first round pick from Cleveland?

  Rockets Cavs 76ers

  PG Bev/Lin Irving/Jack MKW/Wroten

  SG Harden/Garcia Karasev/Miles Waiters/Anderson

  SF Parsons/Cassipi Turner/Clark Thompson/McGee

  PF Jones/DMo Thompson/Bennett Young/Allen

  C Howard/Varejo Bynum/Hawes Asik/Orton

  Rockets get back-up center + top 5 protected lottery guaranteed pick.

  76ers get a defensive anchor, a young shooting guard and a SF (to make money work)

  Cavs get Turner and Hawes to replace Varejo while maintaining cap flexibility for upcoming offseason.

• Cooper says 4 months ago If we send him to Philly I'd want hawes and turner.
• Buckko says 4 months ago Why would we get another PF and deplete our C position?
• rockets best fan says 4 months ago

  NO.......Thad Young is NOT enough of an upgrade to warrant letting Asik go. while he isat this point a slightly better overall player than jones, he is much closer to his ceiling than T-Jones at a much more expensive price tag. I see Morey much more interested in the N.O. first round pick that Philly owns if they are talking to Philly. maybe something like a Hawes + N.O. first rounder for Asik + D-Mo. I think Morey is after K-Love and he is trying to build assets for that purpose

• glucagon says 4 months ago I disagree, I think Young is a much better fit than Asik. I don't know if acquiring him is any knock on Jones though. I see Young coming in as a forward that can run with the second unit, that can offer more size, energy, and defense than say Casspi does. I don't think you can alter a starting lineup that is posting astronomic +/- like the jones parsons howard front court is. But Asik seems to increasingly show how poorly he fits with the composition of this roster. His inability to catch passes in traffic, finish consistently at the rim, run the floor with an iota of body control is becoming incredibly frustrating. He offers elite rim protection and excellent individual defense, yes. But are we sure we get that from him all season if he doesn't get moved? I don't think so...and I'm not sure Morey does either. I think they talked with Omer and convinced him that to trade him he needs to appear to play nice. He's playing to get moved. He wants those starter minutes, and he deserves them. I'd be thrilled to get either Milsapp or Young in exchange for him.
• 2016Champions says 4 months ago

  I want to add for everyone's knowledge that we can take back 150% of Asik's contact in a trade, which is around $12.5 million.

• 2016Champions says 4 months ago

  New post: Is Thad Young really an upgrade?
  By: rahat huq
  

  Marc Stein's latest is that the notion of Philadelphia as a viable destination for Omer Asik has been making the rounds. Stein reports that this, in part, is due to the fact that Philadelphia could send back Thad Young to the Rockets. Stein also adds that there is an increasing belief that the Rockets intend to deal Asik to the Eastern Conference leading me to intensify my own belief that the Rockets probably will end up holding onto Asik.

  First, while Young at this stage certainly is an upgrade over sophomore forward Terrence Jones, I'm not sure he's enough of an upgrade to warrant trading the team's best remaining trade chip (and probably the best asset it will have to improve the team during the duration of the Dwight Howard-James Harden era.) Adding Young to this lineup likely adds a win or two, but it also stunts and depreciates the value of Jones, nullifying any positive benefits gained if viewing this thing from the long-term. Young also doesn't strike me as the type of asset that other teams would find enticing as part of a larger, later deal.

  Jones has slipped of late from his torrid start, even being benched to start the second half against Phoenix. But his emergence has removed desperation from the Asik equation. Point being, if Chandler Parsons and Jeremy Lin are healthy, I'm not sure it makes sense to just trade Asikjust to trade Asik. (Lo and behold, Parsons' return to the lineup the other night correlated with a rebound-game from Jones.) At this point, I still think your best bet is some sort of complicated three-way deal that brings back a lottery pick for Asik. A much grander deal involving Lin as well could improve the team, but that would seem even more unlikely just because that sort of thing rarely happens. (Think 'Mel0, Bosh.)

  If Asik is dealt, I think it's for a lottery pick or in a blockbuster with Lin. My money right now is on the team just holding onto him outright. At this point in time, I don't see them dealing him for the likes of a Thad Young type.

  Took the words right out my mouth, I honestly agree with every word here. Months ago I wouldn't have agreed because it didn't hit me how much Asik helps us, and I had my doubts about Jones, but the picture is a lot clearer now. I do really like Thad as a player but Jones just seems like such a perfect fit.