100 replies to this topic

[Cooper]

Big talent difference between the 07 celtics and the rest of  the east then and especially the big three heat and the rest of the east compared to this years rockets and the west. Thats an unfair comparison. Theres absolutely zero percent chance Jackson is coming out of retirement to coach in houston. Stan van hates Dwight he's not coming. Nate Mcmillan? whats the change from this years portland and the past few years where they tanked the past few years. Byron scott really lit it up with the cavs oh wait he didn't, even with chris paul in N.O. the best they did was conference semis.

[Steven]

Stats are overrated. The eye test clearly shows that Lin is better then Beverly. Don't you remember what he did against Kobe at the Garden?

Edited by Steven, 06 March 2014 - 11:11 PM.

[Drew in Abilene]

I'm not going to address all the points and counterpoints written thus far, but I thought there was something worthwhile to note: It was mentioned that the Celtics and the Heat both added superstars and were able to contend immediately, with Boston earning a 1 seed and winning a championship and Miami earned a 2 seed and lost in the Finals. Both of these teams were listed as reasons to hold the Rockets to a higher standard. The logic was that because these two teams gelled in time to dominate in the regular season and advance in the post-season, the same should be expected of Houston.

 

The difference that makes this reasoning not sit well for me is that both the Celtics and Heat added two stars to form a "Big Three," while Houston simply added one star. I believe the combined levels of talent for each of the aforementioned teams were far above that of the current Rockets squad.

 

I personally believe the Rockets are performing better than I could have reasonably expected, especially considering the injuries and rotation switches that plagued most of the season. I think McHale has done an excellent job of managing the team, and puts the players in positions to excel. There are very few coaches who I would rather have on the bench for Houston. With McHale's low post teaching ability that has clearly motivated Howard to join the Rockets and has improved his offensive performance, I'd say I'm very happy with him as our coach.

[rockets best fan]

@oujoe82

 

WHY? because you are looking at the Rockets through Lin colored glasses. this teams is not about what's best for Lin, it's about what's best for the Rockets. trying to blame other for Lin's shortcomings is a whole new level of LOF fascination.

[thejohnnygold]

Stats are overrated. The eye test clearly shows that Lin is better then Beverly. Don't you remember what he did against Kobe at the Garden?

[Steven]

Touché touché

[uojoe82]

And what have the Clippers won yet? Same thing the Rockets have... absolutely nothing. Why aren't they equal? Because the Clippers beat us twice at the VERY beginning of the year when we were at our worst? Oh and then beat us at their house with us on a second night of a B2B? I mean I don't want to see them in the playoffs, but they are just as unproven as we are. I am not quite sure why you are using them as the perfect example as to why McHale isn't a good coach. 

 

P.S. Doc would be starting Beverley over Lin as well. I know that is your real motive here. 

So are you saying that even though the Clippers are 3-0 against the rockets the rockets and clippers are equal? Maybe record wise but head to head says otherwise.

[txtdo1411]

So are you saying that even though the Clippers are 3-0 against the rockets the rockets and clippers are equal? Maybe record wise but head to head says otherwise.

That is exactly what I am saying. If you just want to go off of h2h, then we are a way better team than the Spurs... See the flaw in that logic?? You also completely disregarded the fact that two of those losses were at the beginning of the season when we hadn't developed any chemistry yet. 

[uojoe82]

Well, that someone was me.  I have personally provided data more than once that clearly shows a wide chasm between Beverley and Lin on defense.  You can also take a quick trip to mysynergysports.com and do a side by side comparison where you can clearly see that Bev outshines Lin across the board.  By the way, for all the talk about Bev's foul trouble, Lin fouls more frequently then he does.  Not opinion--just facts.

 

Also, Beverley is only a hair behind Lin on offense--I'd say about even once everything is taken into account.  Don't believe me?  While you're at mysynergysports feel free to look a those numbers too.  Mind you, those numbers are for the season.  Currently, it's not even close.

 

In short, saying things does not make them true.

 

There is a reason posts like these never have citations or links to sources.  You can't cite imagination, hopes, and dreams.

Fouls per Game

 

Lin 2.3

Beverey 3.2

 

Source: NBA.com

 

Not sure come Lin fouls more frequently given he averages on 2 minutes less a night.

 

Lin shoots 44.5%, Beverley shoots 39.7%. You can use all the advance stats you want but you cant overlook standard stats to evaluate a players. Lin shoots better and he scores more points. He also has more assists per game and draws more fouls per game. Lin also gets to the line twice as much as Beverley so its not like Bev is offsetting his poor shooting by getting to the line. So given that Lin scores more per game, shoots better, gets to the line more, and has more assists per game  how are they equal on offense once everything is taken into account? What is everything? Your favoritism for Beverley?

 

So let me get this right

 

Lin's offensive production = Beverley's offensive production+thejohnnygolds affection for Beverley.

 

As someone who uses statistics everyday as a Financial ANALYST I know the value of stats just as much as anyone. I also know that stats are tools, not answers. 

 

Lets not forget that Lin has the ability to carry a team when needed as shown in NY and with the Rockets when Harden is out. He also has the ability to score 20 plus points on any given night. I think Bev has scored 20 once. 

[uojoe82]

That is exactly what I am saying. If you just want to go off of h2h, then we are a way better team than the Spurs... See the flaw in that logic?? You also completely disregarded the fact that two of those losses were at the beginning of the season when we hadn't developed any chemistry yet

Lets just ignore any loss that you have an excuse for.

 

Also,

 

The most recent loss to the CLippers was a b2b however instead of cherry picking information you should get the whole picture. That game was the clippers 4th game in 6th days. But I guess the Rockets were tired from blowing out the Kings the night before. 

 

Lets petition the NBA to have that loss removed from the Rockets record. In fact, lets ask them to not have back to back games anymore since players are tired and cant give equal effort against a team that didnt play the night before.

 

Fans like you always make excuses. So what's your excuse if the Rockets dont make it of the first round? Chemistry? Experience?

 

Why cant I be a fan and be critical of the Rockets? Does this make me not as "good" of a fan as you?

 

And yes, I think in a 7 game playoff series we beat the spurs.

[txtdo1411]

Lets just ignore any loss that you have an excuse for.

 

Also,

 

The most recent loss to the CLippers was a b2b however instead of cherry picking information you should get the whole picture. That game was the clippers 4th game in 6th days. But I guess the Rockets were tired from blowing out the Kings the night before. 

 

Lets petition the NBA to have that loss removed from the Rockets record. In fact, lets ask them to not have back to back games anymore since players are tired and cant give equal effort against a team that didnt play the night before.

 

Fans like you always make excuses. So what's your excuse if the Rockets dont make it of the first round? Chemistry? Experience?

 

Why cant I be a fan and be critical of the Rockets? Does this make me not as "good" of a fan as you?

 

And yes, I think in a 7 game playoff series we beat the spurs.

 

Haha whatever man. You are starting to be condescending because you have got nothing.The Clippers haven't proven anything just like we haven't. They have yet to win a playoff series. If you think they can beat us in a series, fine, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you. But you have to agree we are playing better basketball and are a better team now than we were in those first two games. Thats all I was saying. You can call yourself whatever kind of fan you want to call yourself. I would say a good title is a non-fan of the Rockets, and fan of a certain unnamed player. That is my opinion, I am entitled to it. Just like you are entitled to yours to think I am a fan that always makes excuses. 

[Mario Peña]

That was funny Steven. I like the "oh you" bit johnnygold.

Hey guys, this guy seriously thinks Lin can carry a team. The Knicks, a team, yeah.

[Dayak]

Stats are overrated. The eye test clearly shows that Lin is better then Beverly. Don't you remember what he did against Kobe at the Garden?

 

Well, maybe we can get a 2nd round pick for him.

[Willk]

Fouls per Game

 

Lin 2.3

Beverey 3.2

 

Source: NBA.com

 

Not sure come Lin fouls more frequently given he averages on 2 minutes less a night.

 

Lin shoots 44.5%, Beverley shoots 39.7%. You can use all the advance stats you want but you cant overlook standard stats to evaluate a players. Lin shoots better and he scores more points. He also has more assists per game and draws more fouls per game. Lin also gets to the line twice as much as Beverley so its not like Bev is offsetting his poor shooting by getting to the line. So given that Lin scores more per game, shoots better, gets to the line more, and has more assists per game  how are they equal on offense once everything is taken into account? What is everything? Your favoritism for Beverley?

 

So let me get this right

 

Lin's offensive production = Beverley's offensive production+thejohnnygolds affection for Beverley.

 

As someone who uses statistics everyday as a Financial ANALYST I know the value of stats just as much as anyone. I also know that stats are tools, not answers. 

 

Lets not forget that Lin has the ability to carry a team when needed as shown in NY and with the Rockets when Harden is out. He also has the ability to score 20 plus points on any given night. I think Bev has scored 20 once. 

McHale is definitely the right coach for this team. You want Dunleavy to coach? One of the worst coaches in the history of the league? You want Phil Jackson? Jackson does not use PGs at all. Did Phil Jackson explore the possibilities of using Derek Fisher, BJ Armstrong, John Paxson, etc... No. He definitely will not use Lin. Stan Van Gundy would use a 1 in and 4 out system, not a Lin-centric offense like you. JVG is not going to coach any time soon.

Let's now look at the other coaches who you consider to be smarter than McHale.

Scott Brooks - the same coach who constantly plays Perkins even though all of the stats show his team is much better with Perkins on the Bench. Brooks uses as much ISO sets as the rockets.

Doc Rivers - the same coach would was considered a terrible coach before acquiring Allen and Garnett? Every Boston fan wanted him fired prior to this championship.

Erik Spoelstra - another coach everyone wanted fired prior to acquiring LBJ and Chris Bosh.

It is Amazing how much better a team gets when they acquire 2 of the top 15 players, especially when they already have 1 of the top 15 players. The Rockets have two of the top 15 players in the league now and after they shed Lin's contract, they can get another top 15 player.

As far as Lin vs Bev is concerned. Who is the better 3 point shooter? Who is the better Defender? I know you cannot be bothered to look at advanced stats. Bev is a better fit for this team than Lin. Quite frankly Canaan should be playing instead of Lin.

You always mention when Lin was on the Knicks. Obviously Lin's success was due in large part to multiple factors:

1) playing against poor opposition - most of the temas he played against were bad

2) playing against severely beat up opposition - Lin started playing in february. The season started on Christmas. Many players were playing with injuries when Lin started to play. Lin's biggest game came against the Lakers who were playing their 6th game in 7 nights and they certainly played like it too. After playing less than a month, Lin was injured too. I will give Lin credit for taking advantage of playing against injured players. 

3) no scouting report/ no practice - because teams were playing 5 to 6 games a week, they did not have time to prepare for the unknown's like Lin. The only team that did (the Heat) shut Lin down easily. They did not even use LBJ on Lin, they just had Chalmers or Coles pick Lin up full court and wait for Lin to make a mistake. OKC did that to Lin in the playoffs last year as well before Westbrook got hurt.

It time for you to stop blaming everybody else for Lin's failures. Lin has had plenty of chances to prove he is a great player but he has not done it. Bill Simmons has always said Lin's career path is to be JJ Barea 2.0. He looks more like Flip Murray 2.0. Since you do not know who Flip Murray is, he was 2nd round draft pick of the Milwaukee Bucks. He barely played as rookie. Prior to his 2nd season, he was traded to Seattle. When Ray Allen was injured, Flip Murray got his chance to start. He became the first player in history to average 20 PPG for his 1st ten starts. He then got worse every year after that. Sound familiar?

[It's Dee Way Ferrell]

Alright I was reading a couple of comments, including the article to get the gel of the subject and forum. Note I'm ready to unleash the truth of it.
Can we say Mchale is truly a "bad"coach. May be a tad over his head with what's on the floor. Every reader and writer thinks they have the solution to show off the woes the team faced over the course of this season. Really, midst should a he Jeremy Lin is the starter fan of Lin or not. Yet after Beverly injury some know for a fact Mchale' s way is working. That's equaling Lin's frustrations. Which ultimately falls on coaching. You pull Jeremy Lin or of the lineup just when you embarkand on 8 game win streak. Him being just as big a part of the winning. Beverly comes back to the starting line up immediately then disaster falls upon us against the Clippers. Both Beverly and Lin become useless when we need them both. Mind you Beverly isn't in game shape with so many days off so he definitely shouldn't have started. I remanded this Rockets team last year that when they faced an opponent of a teammates past Lin and Harden I midst particularly they stood up fir each other together, like this year with sur & now against Miami for Beverly. Which he himself played a very big part. Lin's mistakes don't cost him the minutes is his lack of recognition as the integral part of the bench brigade. He submits to every one on the floor When he shouldn't his confidence is shot right now. This gals on coaching too because to achieve the ultimate you have give up your selfishness and become selfless. Mchaledoesn't mentor players. He just expects them to perform at a high level. What championship coaches do is make sure that their players are capable even hems Scottdale for their mistakes. Mchale may tolerate Lin's mistakes now but he also sea Lin subsiding into submissiveness.
To be perfectly clear I am a Houston Rockets fan my favorite team consists of The Drama years & the years my wish came true with acquiring T-Mac. Beat years of my Rockets existence. Didn't want Howard don't care for Harden. I think the Lowry and Dragic days young guns ready fir battle but hey after watching Morey's miraculously made moves in pleased.
Is Mchale really a bad coach? No he knows what works and how it should work. If you're not on board then you're not a fan. Side note: to Lin haters calling yourselves fans of this team you may think you being real but truth is I'd you knew talent how to use it you'd be GM in the NBA, am I right. Beverly goes for 19 against Miami do nothing in Orlando one thing I say about Lin at least he was consistent in the last 2 games.

Think about this we don't win a ring we probably go after Rondo what does that do for Beverly because if Lin is not pay off that trade Beverly won't play at all or Mchale doesn't coach at all. Think about it. This organization didn't put up the money for Olajuwon no way in the world they going to let 15 million dollars sit on the bench believe it.

Edited by It's Dee Way Ferrell, 07 March 2014 - 10:15 AM.

[Mario Peña]

McHale is definitely the right coach for this team. You want Dunleavy to coach? One of the worst coaches in the history of the league? You want Phil Jackson? Jackson does not use PGs at all. Did Phil Jackson explore the possibilities of using Derek Fisher, BJ Armstrong, John Paxson, etc... No. He definitely will not use Lin. Stan Van Gundy would use a 1 in and 4 out system, not a Lin-centric offense like you. JVG is not going to coach any time soon.
Let's now look at the other coaches who you consider to be smarter than McHale.
Scott Brooks - the same coach who constantly plays Perkins even though all of the stats show his team is much better with Perkins on the Bench. Brooks uses as much ISO sets as the rockets.
Doc Rivers - the same coach would was considered a terrible coach before acquiring Allen and Garnett? Every Boston fan wanted him fired prior to this championship.
Erik Spoelstra - another coach everyone wanted fired prior to acquiring LBJ and Chris Bosh.
It is Amazing how much better a team gets when they acquire 2 of the top 15 players, especially when they already have 1 of the top 15 players. The Rockets have two of the top 15 players in the league now and after they shed Lin's contract, they can get another top 15 player.
As far as Lin vs Bev is concerned. Who is the better 3 point shooter? Who is the better Defender? I know you cannot be bothered to look at advanced stats. Bev is a better fit for this team than Lin. Quite frankly Canaan should be playing instead of Lin.
You always mention when Lin was on the Knicks. Obviously Lin's success was due in large part to multiple factors:
1) playing against poor opposition - most of the temas he played against were bad
2) playing against severely beat up opposition - Lin started playing in february. The season started on Christmas. Many players were playing with injuries when Lin started to play. Lin's biggest game came against the Lakers who were playing their 6th game in 7 nights and they certainly played like it too. After playing less than a month, Lin was injured too. I will give Lin credit for taking advantage of playing against injured players.
3) no scouting report/ no practice - because teams were playing 5 to 6 games a week, they did not have time to prepare for the unknown's like Lin. The only team that did (the Heat) shut Lin down easily. They did not even use LBJ on Lin, they just had Chalmers or Coles pick Lin up full court and wait for Lin to make a mistake. OKC did that to Lin in the playoffs last year as well before Westbrook got hurt.
It time for you to stop blaming everybody else for Lin's failures. Lin has had plenty of chances to prove he is a great player but he has not done it. Bill Simmons has always said Lin's career path is to be JJ Barea 2.0. He looks more like Flip Murray 2.0. Since you do not know who Flip Murray is, he was 2nd round draft pick of the Milwaukee Bucks. He barely played as rookie. Prior to his 2nd season, he was traded to Seattle. When Ray Allen was injured, Flip Murray got his chance to start. He became the first player in history to average 20 PPG for his 1st ten starts. He then got worse every year after that. Sound familiar?

Very good points Willk. Hard to argue with any of that.

I'd like to point out that the poster of this topic also has expressed in another thread he would like to see James Harden traded for Kevin Love. Also he stated that since he is from Portland and a Trailblazers fan he would like to see a Blazers Rockets Conference Finals where the Blazers win in 4 games. I find it hard to take this guy seriously and I find the title to this topic alarmingly misleading.

[Alituro]

Ummm.. OK.

 

McHale may not have the most playoff coaching experience, but how could he? How long has he been a (official) head coach? 2.5 years? He has played in 169 playoff games in his career, more than any other active coach. Last year he took a way over-performing Rockets squad to the playoffs and engaged them in an exciting 6 game series, that could have easily gone to 7 with the defending conference champs. I'd say last season was a success, especially since we were projected to make it nowhere near the playoffs. The mentor-ship he was able to offer D12 was instrumental in Dwight coming here. He was named coach of the month in Feb by a panel of judges way more qualified than any poster here. Saying our record should be better if he was a better coach is false. He's just been able to have a full roster of players to coach only recently. Even then, we have the best record in the entire league since the start of the calendar year. Les, Morey and the entire roster respond well to him and trust in him as their coach. Who here has a more qualified opinion than that?

 

Oh that's right, this post isn't about McHale at all is it? It's about someone trying to place the blame of the fall of their favorite player on something else other than that player. He should only look one place to find the source of his drop in confidence and that's inside himself. It's not the coaches job to coddle a player and say "There, there, I know you are having it rough, even though it may cost some games, I'm going to give your starting position back for a couple days just so your feelings don't get hurt" NO!  McHale is doing everything necessary to give the Rockets the best chance to win. The proof is in the pudding.

 

GO ROCKETS!

[thejohnnygold]

Ha this has gotten a little ridiculous.  I did like this retort, uojoe82: "Lin's offensive production = Beverley's offensive production+thejohnnygolds affection for Beverley."   Just call me a BOF!

 

Two things.  One, I said Bev was a hair behind him on offense and only pulls even when you consider turnovers, 3 pt %, etc.  Two, you got that equation wrong:

 

Lin+uojoe82's affection for Lin < Beverley.  Oh, except for those games when Jeremy's feelings aren't hurt and he's confident enough to play....

 

As for the fouls.  I'm sorry that my use of advanced statistics offends you.  I'm presuming you didn't bother going to mysynergy.  They track fouls committed actually playing defense and not just every foul picked up during the course of the game.  From that perspective (one I find very relevant) Bev beats Lin...Not that you will care.

 

Statistics aside, I've watched 85-90% of the last two seasons.  Beverley has proven to be the better player.  My affection for Beverley doesn't decide that--it was born of it.

[Alituro]

Ha this has gotten a little ridiculous.  I did like this retort, uojoe82: "Lin's offensive production = Beverley's offensive production+thejohnnygolds affection for Beverley."   Just call me a BOF!

 

Two things.  One, I said Bev was a hair behind him on offense and only pulls even when you consider turnovers, 3 pt %, etc.  Two, you got that equation wrong:

 

Lin+uojoe82's affection for Lin < Beverley.  Oh, except for those games when Jeremy's feelings aren't hurt and he's confident enough to play....

 

As for the fouls.  I'm sorry that my use of advanced statistics offends you.  I'm presuming you didn't bother going to mysynergy.  They track fouls committed actually playing defense and not just every foul picked up during the course of the game.  From that perspective (one I find very relevant) Bev beats Lin...Not that you will care.

 

Statistics aside, I've watched 85-90% of the last two seasons.  Beverley has proven to be the better player.  My affection for Beverley doesn't decide that--it was born of it.

LOL @ JG!

 

My name is Alituro, and I too am a BOF. Next.

[rockets best fan]

@JG/Alituro

put me on that BOF list too  sick and tired of arguing with these objectively blinded LOF's. if his play was better it wouldn't need defending. none of the LOF's seem to realize that. I like the stat comparison JG, but I can tell Beverly is the better player from the eye test. the way some of these LOF's talk makes me wonder if they are watching the games  and if they are may be they don't understand what they are looking at

Edited by rockets best fan, 07 March 2014 - 04:54 PM.