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@  majik19 : (21 November 2015 - 02:31 AM) our team is just embarassing
@  cointurtlemoose : (19 November 2015 - 07:11 AM) That was the most Corey Brewer thing I have ever seen
@  majik19 : (19 November 2015 - 04:20 AM) how the hell did that happen? maybe just switching from McHale to JB will change our bad luck...
@  Willk : (19 November 2015 - 03:58 AM) in my face
@  bboley24 : (19 November 2015 - 03:55 AM) So that just happened
@  Cooper : (19 November 2015 - 03:53 AM) got the win
@  Willk : (19 November 2015 - 02:06 AM) fire McHale! playing like crap again
@  SadLakerFan : (18 November 2015 - 06:21 PM) It's unfair, but it's the right move because it's the only move major move they had available to them. But, it seems just a tad premature - I wonder what was really said in the player meeting.
@  majik19 : (18 November 2015 - 06:03 PM) So much for building off continuity now that the core is in place... It's probably about time for another "Morey's Plan" article from Rahat.
@  txtdo1411 : (18 November 2015 - 05:26 PM) No problem. He definitely made it clear that changes will continue to be made until we are winning again.
@  cointurtlemoose : (18 November 2015 - 05:19 PM) Thanks for the link, txtdo; good words from Morey, I thought
@  cointurtlemoose : (18 November 2015 - 05:14 PM) Wow, I expected this 6 or 7 games from now if things didn't change... This seems a tad early. And they better have a replacement actually in mind and ready to hire, otherwise this seems like a misguided move
@  txtdo1411 : (18 November 2015 - 05:13 PM) Its going on right now.
@  txtdo1411 : (18 November 2015 - 05:13 PM) http://api.viglink.c...9&title=Rockets Press Conference 11am - ClutchFans&txt=http://www.khou.com/videos/news/loca...7/29/12651418/
@  slick shoes : (18 November 2015 - 05:12 PM) Anyone know where to listen in to the DM press conference?
@  DenverRocket : (18 November 2015 - 04:50 PM) Shocked too, but then again not. Something had to give. I can't see JB being given the reins f/t. Surely they have a contingency? Thibs?
@  txtdo1411 : (18 November 2015 - 04:48 PM) I wonder if the plan is to find a replacement fairly quickly, or to give JB a shot. I'm trying to understand how things would change, since JB has been in the locker room all year. The players are going to give him effort now just because McHale is gone?
@  majik19 : (18 November 2015 - 04:22 PM) just shocked. I feel like this is now a lost season. We were struggling under McHale, but do we really think J.B. can lead us to a championship?
@  thenit : (18 November 2015 - 04:19 PM) Its becoming a winner or becoming Melo, great scorer but not coachable
@  Mario Peña : (18 November 2015 - 04:14 PM) I'm disappointed in the players too. Here is Harden's chance, win a championship or get relegated to being considered a guy that can't get on the same page with a coach.

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Kevin McHale- Whats the Verdict? Is he the right guy?


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#61 MrLobble

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    Posted 09 March 2014 - 06:09 PM

    lolololol at the Pringles comment above ^^^^.... Took me a while, but I started dying when I got the analogy! 


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    #62 YaoMan

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      Posted 10 March 2014 - 08:46 PM

      I agree with RBF and FSS.

       

      To answer the question about should we have 4-5 more wins....I'd say we would if our "6th man of the year" wasn't busy making Rafer Alston, Matt Maloney, and Bryce Drew seem like better options at back up point guard than himself.

       

      I know Lin is better than he has been playing lately, but the good games, more and more, are proving to be the exceptions to the rule.

       

      Saying that Dragic and Lowry were stifled under McHale ignores facts and reality.  They prospered under McHale--which is what led to us being able to trade for a first rounder and for Dragic to get a sizable contract offer from Phoenix.  But yes, let's believe that a coach who's job depends on the success of his team would sabotage his players because he obviously still holds a grudge against Dennis Johnson from back in his playing days :rolleyes: .

       

      McHale isn't playing Lin because Lin is the one who appears to be sabotaging the team.  Since his minutes have been drastically cut (6 games ago) his turnover rate per36 minutes would be around 6/game.  He's cramming a whole game's worth into his 15-20 minutes.  He's had 2 total steals in those 6 games.  He has shot a combined 10-36 during this stretch for a 27.8 fg%.  He is also going to the foul line once per game.  The only redeeming quality is the 3 assists per game he is averaging; however, if you remove his one 6 assist game that drops to 2/game.  His plus/minus for the month of March: -19.  It's real, real bad for Jeremy right now.  Blame McHale if you want, but I commend him for not letting the pressure of a big contract, high profile player force his hand.

       

      If his back is sore he needs to rest it as he is completely ineffective right now.  Is it possible for Canaan to play worse than Lin is right now?

       

      I am still a fan of McHale.  I like his style and am not worried about him getting out-coached in the playoffs.  I expect it the same way I expect us to come up short at some point against a team like OKC or LAC.  It's not an indictment of our team or coaches. 

       

      I think McHale is doing fine although I still think it's incomplete until the playoffs start and we see how he adjusts there. But I will disagree with Lin making Bryce Drew and making Matt Maloney look good. They could never set up the offense in the same fashion or get to the rim at anywhere nearly the rate that Lin can. I know you like to use Synergy Sport rating and all but I still see the value in his (Lin's) contribution as well as others who sometimes get pulled in and out of longer rotation minutes. 

      I would also disagree with the exception than the norm, when given minutes, he has been more beneficial than not.  Granted he has been in a huge slump but that's the grind of 82 games and dealing with some nagging injuries(that's what separates the stars from just rotation players). I think the value of Bev is that his "getting under the skin" defense is consistent and always there but his offense comes and goes.  Vs Indiana and Miami, watching both games from beginning to end, Lin's defensive effort was there and solid with rotation and closeouts and even on the ball defense (to the best of his ability).  Obviously he was a major late game contributor in the Portland game. 

      And let's be honest, JG, I don't think Lin is ever "sabotaging" the Rockets or himself. That to me is kind of a "hater" statement that I thought we were trying to avoid here. (JR Smith comes to mind as a sabotage kind of player - sabotage is deliberately destroying, damaging, or obstructing for some kind of advantage)

       

      @oujoe82

      It's obvious you're a LOF, so considering what I could say about Lin.....I'll try to be kind. the Rockets are on a good role right now even with Lin (our sixth man)  playing like crap. Lin is in his second full year in the league, but instead of blossoming he has regressed. I have never been a fan of his even though I hoped he would blossom because he was on my favorite team. Lin is a mediocre PG at best. we may already be looking at his ceiling. consistent play would seem to be beyond his reach. he has had his chances, now when the team could use him most he has vanished like cotton candy left with a 7 year old :lol: he seems to have lost confidence. while his game has never been that good to me, the little bit he did have going for him is being crushed by lack of confidence. YES Lin is a good teammate, locker room guy and overall person, but that still doesn't make him a good basketball player. looking for other reasons to justify his poor play outside of looking at him is shallow. he is the biggest reason his playing time is declining...............not P-Bev, McHale or anybody else. I am hoping he gets his chit together before the playoffs but the prognosis isn't promising. I would go as far to say if he was fulfilling his role right now we would be on another level chemistry wise right now. so if you're looking for someone to blame...............look no further than Lin 

      RBF, for a Rocket fan, you've pretty much disliked Lin from day one. Consistency is a real problem for Lin but that's the case for most people who aren't Harden, Howard and Parsons.  Even Parsons has gone through some tough stretches. Saying Lin to blame for losses (I know you're just responding to uojoe), is highly inaccurate and probably a bit wrong. Using that cotton candy with a 7 year old is a pretty bad example.  You need playing time to get into a rhythm and sometimes you can't develop it. If you watch all the Rockets games with an unbiased eye (I've see about 45 of them from beginning to end), he's had very productive games throughout the season - just so happens, he's hit a stump (until the last few games). Look, I'm not here to defend uojoe because I don't think his statements are accurate but from a pure basketball standpoint, you have hated Lin from the get go.  Against playoff competition in the last 3 games vs Miami, Indiana and Portland he has played well even defensively.

      But to me, Bev, Asik, Jones, Lin, D-Mo, Hamilton will all be valuable in the Rockets' success and I look to them to finding ways to contribute on any given night. I like this team and look for a good balance (may not be consistently 1 or 2 players alone but in tandem) in the stretch run.


      Edited by YaoMan, 10 March 2014 - 08:55 PM.

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      #63 rockets best fan

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      Posted 10 March 2014 - 09:22 PM

      @YaoMan

      I know you haven't been on the forum long enough to know I was one of Lin's biggest supporters last year. I watched him very closely and came to the conclusion that while there would be marginal improvement for all practical purposes we were looking at Lin's ceiling. nothing has happened this year with Lin that has changed my mind. Yes he will have flashes of superior play, but his inconsistency will always throttle his potential. he will never be anything more than what he is now. I could get into  several reasons why he is not worth his contract and how that money could buy us a better player, but I will spare you the details. the Rockets have chosen to ride out this season with Lin and I'm not really all that upset about it. he can be useful in the right situations like last nights game. however he is NOT the Rockets savior. he is one of many pieces we are trying to fit into a championship puzzle.......no more important than any other piece in this puzzle. I'm tired of listening to LOF's whine about how much he's been done wrong, how he deserves more, how McHale has it in for him, how he's better than Beverley........when nothing could be further from the truth 


      Edited by rockets best fan, 10 March 2014 - 09:26 PM.

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      you can only warn a man that the bridge is out.....if he keeps driving he's on his own B)


      #64 QNoir

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        Posted 10 March 2014 - 09:39 PM

        Kevin McHale calls a timeout:

         

        "Come on guys! ... Come on guys!"

         

        Thanks for the insight, Kevin.


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        #65 YaoMan

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          Posted 10 March 2014 - 10:48 PM

          @YaoMan

          I know you haven't been on the forum long enough to know I was one of Lin's biggest supporters last year. I watched him very closely and came to the conclusion that while there would be marginal improvement for all practical purposes we were looking at Lin's ceiling. nothing has happened this year with Lin that has changed my mind. Yes he will have flashes of superior play, but his inconsistency will always throttle his potential. he will never be anything more than what he is now. I could get into  several reasons why he is not worth his contract and how that money could buy us a better player, but I will spare you the details. the Rockets have chosen to ride out this season with Lin and I'm not really all that upset about it. he can be useful in the right situations like last nights game. however he is NOT the Rockets savior. he is one of many pieces we are trying to fit into a championship puzzle.......no more important than any other piece in this puzzle. I'm tired of listening to LOF's whine about how much he's been done wrong, how he deserves more, how McHale has it in for him, how he's better than Beverley........when nothing could be further from the truth 

           

          I would agree that we have already seen his ceiling.  His showcase in NY is as good as he can be (or has ever been.) That being said, not many people ever avg 20pts, 8asst, 4 rebounds for a month while leading a team to a winning record. I understand your disdain for the illogical fans for not understanding but I would call out the forum poster on his/her lack of bball knowledge than actually make inaccurate bad statements for a member of a team I am wishing to succeed! :)  Having back to back 30 point games and a triple double off the bench in the NBA are incredible feats that bad/mediocre players really can't accomplish.  So we know the talent is definitely there and if that's his ceiling, I am more than happy with that.

          Again, I agree with you about tired of the whining.  But as I said, I think all our non-stars (yes I call Parson a budding star because he's on the cusp) will have meaningful contributions.  I believe Bev's value is highly important and compliments some of the pieces that Lin just doesn't have so you won't see me saying Lin should start or blah, blah like that. Rockets will need him, Jones, D-Mo, Asik, Hamilton (as he seems to be in the rotation now), and even Cisco if he's trying to get healthy again (his defense on Durant last year in the playoffs is very commendable).

           

          I never said Lin was a savior of anything. And definitely agreed he is no more important than any other piece the Rockets are trying to integrate for a deep playoff run.  He is possibly the 4th option on a very good team so, to me, that's not saving anything.  He might be the number 2 option on a really bad team but I actually think he would sacrifice that to be on a winning organization.  I think McHale's leash on everyone not named Howard and Harden is short.  Heck I've even seen him keep Howard out a long time because what was on the floor was working.  He's done that with Parsons and Bev as well when they haven't been successful in winnable games. 

          So I think our big picture is the same.  But to blame Lin for some of the losses or saying he's a bad player seems like you were getting back at the guy/girl posting and I know that's not what you meant. (Or I'm guessing that's not what you meant based on reading most of your post before finally deciding to start contributing - I hope - myself).


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          #66 rockets best fan

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          Posted 11 March 2014 - 01:07 AM

          @YaoMan

          first an foremost I'm not blaming Lin for any losses........I never said that. I responded to a poster who was blaming McHale for Lin's subpar play. I said if you want to know why Lin's play was subpar look no further than Lin himself. I disagree that Lin will ever return to Linsanity. it was a fluke created by the system he was playing in at the time. if you're looking at his time in NY as his ceiling you are way off base. he will probably never achieve that level of success again. he is a mediocre PG who can have nights of brilliance, but lacks consistency to become anything above that,


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          you can only warn a man that the bridge is out.....if he keeps driving he's on his own B)


          #67 thejohnnygold

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          Posted 11 March 2014 - 01:48 AM

          I think McHale is doing fine although I still think it's incomplete until the playoffs start and we see how he adjusts there. But I will disagree with Lin making Bryce Drew and making Matt Maloney look good. They could never set up the offense in the same fashion or get to the rim at anywhere nearly the rate that Lin can. I know you like to use Synergy Sport rating and all but I still see the value in his (Lin's) contribution as well as others who sometimes get pulled in and out of longer rotation minutes. 

          I would also disagree with the exception than the norm, when given minutes, he has been more beneficial than not.  Granted he has been in a huge slump but that's the grind of 82 games and dealing with some nagging injuries(that's what separates the stars from just rotation players). I think the value of Bev is that his "getting under the skin" defense is consistent and always there but his offense comes and goes.  Vs Indiana and Miami, watching both games from beginning to end, Lin's defensive effort was there and solid with rotation and closeouts and even on the ball defense (to the best of his ability).  Obviously he was a major late game contributor in the Portland game. 

          And let's be honest, JG, I don't think Lin is ever "sabotaging" the Rockets or himself. That to me is kind of a "hater" statement that I thought we were trying to avoid here. (JR Smith comes to mind as a sabotage kind of player - sabotage is deliberately destroying, damaging, or obstructing for some kind of advantage)

           

          RBF, for a Rocket fan, you've pretty much disliked Lin from day one. Consistency is a real problem for Lin but that's the case for most people who aren't Harden, Howard and Parsons.  Even Parsons has gone through some tough stretches. Saying Lin to blame for losses (I know you're just responding to uojoe), is highly inaccurate and probably a bit wrong. Using that cotton candy with a 7 year old is a pretty bad example.  You need playing time to get into a rhythm and sometimes you can't develop it. If you watch all the Rockets games with an unbiased eye (I've see about 45 of them from beginning to end), he's had very productive games throughout the season - just so happens, he's hit a stump (until the last few games). Look, I'm not here to defend uojoe because I don't think his statements are accurate but from a pure basketball standpoint, you have hated Lin from the get go.  Against playoff competition in the last 3 games vs Miami, Indiana and Portland he has played well even defensively.

          But to me, Bev, Asik, Jones, Lin, D-Mo, Hamilton will all be valuable in the Rockets' success and I look to them to finding ways to contribute on any given night. I like this team and look for a good balance (may not be consistently 1 or 2 players alone but in tandem) in the stretch run.

           

          Yaoman, I was mostly being facetious.  The post you are responding to was directed at the original post (the one that was allegedly about McHale, but was clearly about Lin).  I couldn't take that post very seriously and so I responded in kind.  As far as the use of synergy sports...who thinks that is bad besides Lin supporters?  Nobody.  I use all kinds of stat sources including 82games, basketball-reference, vorped, nba.com, espn, AND synergy.  I'd say that is a fair grouping of data sources.  I don't rely on the "ratings" at synergy because they include all players in those--even ones with incredibly small sample sizes.  I do like how they refine their offensive and defensive breakdowns.  A lot can be learned from them, but apparently not everyone is into that.  Context is important and they provide a lot of it.

           

          Calling Bev's defense "getting under the skin defense" just isn't accurate.  The numbers do not lie.  His effect on defense can be seen and measured.  The only thing people who want to believe he is not a high level defender can do is ignore that.

           

          Again, the "sabotage" comment was a joke--again referring to the OP which implied McHale was sabotaging.  I know what sabotage means, but thank you for making sure.  If I were going to make a "hater" statement you best believe I'd get my money's worth--which is to say there would be a whole lot more than a simple joke which was never meant to be taken seriously.

           

          When one looks at their numbers with context it is pretty easy to see things clearly.  Here, let's look at numbers from NBA.com:

           

           

          If anyone wants to claim Lin's fg% is superior to Bev's that is true.  What they ignore is PB takes half his shots from behind the arc whereas Lin takes a third of his shots from behind the arc.  That will cause PB's overall fg% to trend down a bit more.  Thus, the 4.4% overall difference is not that big of a difference and the fact that Beverley shoots the 3 better than Lin shouldn't be ignored.

           

          Factor in the extra possession we gain from Bev's offensive rebounding, the extra steal, and the 1.5 possessions we lose to Lin's turnovers and I think we can call it even...and possibly advantage Beverley.

           

          Regarding defense, Bev does most of his work against the NBA's elite PG's...Lin does not.  The fact that his defensive numbers are superior to Lin's is even more dramatic considering this context.

           

          I like Lin and I root for him to succeed because he is a Rocket.  I apologize to those who are annoyed by these Lin-centric posts (again, this thread was never about McHale).


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          #68 QNoir

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            Posted 11 March 2014 - 01:53 AM

            There's always some miserable person looking to declare what you are and where your potential lies.

             

            The concept of a "ceiling" is an excuse used by people who fail to excel. I'm not saying this to be mean. I'm saying that fundamentally, a ceiling only exists if you think it does, which doesn't bode well for the person expressing the idea.


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            #69 thejohnnygold

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            Posted 11 March 2014 - 02:39 AM

            There's always some miserable person looking to declare what you are and where your potential lies.

             

            The concept of a "ceiling" is an excuse used by people who fail to excel. I'm not saying this to be mean. I'm saying that fundamentally, a ceiling only exists if you think it does, which doesn't bode well for the person expressing the idea.

             

            QNoir, this doesn't really conform to Red94 standards.  We don't condone personal attacks/insults and while you put in the disclaimer of, "I'm not saying this to be mean", you still made your point very clear and there is no other way to interpret your statement--it may not be mean, but it surely isn't nice.

             

            Disagreeing with another person's opinion does not make them miserable nor a failure--to imply anything akin to that is out of bounds here.  Thanks for understanding.

             

            I still think Lin has Chauncey Billups written all over him.  His maturation process looks like it will be a slow one.  The things he needs to work on are difficult to change and adapt.  Lin is pretty good as long as plan A works, but when the defense shuts off plan A and it's time to go to plan B he falters and makes mistakes far too often.  That is going to take time to overcome.


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            #70 rockets best fan

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            Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:55 AM

            @QNoir

            JG has already address part of your comment. I would like to address the other...........ie the concept of a player having a ceiling. a player's floor and ceiling have been an expression to judge a players potential for quite some time in basketball. every player has one because every player is bound by human limitations. Lin will never be Lebron and to expect him to achieve it would be foolish. he simply does not have the athletic ability or skillset to rival Lebron. therefore it would be said he does not have as high of a ceiling as Lebron. I would venture to say Lin's ceiling is lower than Lebron's floor :lol: however back to topic.........making such a statement is a judgment call about how I view a players potential..........not some angle I view life from. if you were looking at it any other way.........you need to look again :unsure:


            Edited by rockets best fan, 11 March 2014 - 04:56 AM.

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            you can only warn a man that the bridge is out.....if he keeps driving he's on his own B)


            #71 Cooper

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              Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:22 AM

              ceilings do exist while some can be only mental many a very real. I won't ever be able to run a 9.8 100m or jump 40inch no matter how much I believe I could or how hard I tried, it just isn't physically possible for people who aren't extremely gifted athletically.


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              #72 QNoir

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                Posted 11 March 2014 - 08:09 AM

                It needed to be said. There are several things that contribute to a player's game:

                 

                His athletic ability

                His skill

                His attitude

                His level of determination

                The severity of the obstacles he faces

                 

                A ceiling is simply an abstraction of those things ... none of which are set in stone.

                 

                What I see in Lin is exceptional athletic ability, skill and determination. It seems at times that he could operate with more confidence and a greater degree of selfishness, but your use of the words "never" and "fluke" are far more offensive than my demonization of ... a term. And you meant it that way. Reread what you wrote. You would be better served to offer constructive criticism of one of the more concrete concepts listed above.

                 

                Furthermore, Red94 would be better served by applying "standards" without simultaneously offering opinions. There is a theme, rather, a current of hostility toward certain directions of fandom here that is led by actions like that. I always find moderators expressing opinions to be in poor taste. It sends the clear message that your disagreement with my perspective relates to your view of my post's tone. Poor form.


                Edited by QNoir, 11 March 2014 - 08:13 AM.

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                #73 rockets best fan

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                Posted 11 March 2014 - 08:58 AM

                @QNoir

                slow your roll...........I see you have posted 10 times so some of us have been at this a lot longer than you. this is a small tight community. we may disagree but we don't get off into the personal attacks here on other members you see on other forums. hang around an mingle first before you come in telling us how the forum should be run.

                you appear to have been offended because I call your golden boy Lin mediocre and called Linsanity a fluke. you mad bro? :lol: somehow you take this personal. I judge Lin just like I judge all other basketball players. it part of enjoying the game. I don't hate Lin personally. the man has done nothing to me :lol: I happen to think he is an outstanding person and good teammate, just not a good basketball player. that's my opinion. I'm entitled to it. you may disagree, but it makes neither of us less of a Rockets fan or less of a human being.


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                you can only warn a man that the bridge is out.....if he keeps driving he's on his own B)


                #74 thejohnnygold

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                Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:01 PM

                It needed to be said. There are several things that contribute to a player's game:

                 

                His athletic ability

                His skill

                His attitude

                His level of determination

                The severity of the obstacles he faces

                 

                A ceiling is simply an abstraction of those things ... none of which are set in stone.

                 

                What I see in Lin is exceptional athletic ability, skill and determination. It seems at times that he could operate with more confidence and a greater degree of selfishness, but your use of the words "never" and "fluke" are far more offensive than my demonization of ... a term. And you meant it that way. Reread what you wrote. You would be better served to offer constructive criticism of one of the more concrete concepts listed above.

                 

                Furthermore, Red94 would be better served by applying "standards" without simultaneously offering opinions. There is a theme, rather, a current of hostility toward certain directions of fandom here that is led by actions like that. I always find moderators expressing opinions to be in poor taste. It sends the clear message that your disagreement with my perspective relates to your view of my post's tone. Poor form.

                 

                Thanks for the input.  I appreciate your perspective.

                 

                Now, about this "current of hostility" you speak of.  Care to be less vague about your allegations since you feel like throwing them around?  I am no leader--that is not my role.  I am hear to uphold our standards.  While I completely disagree with your perspective on "ceilings" that is not the issue at hand and I made that clear in my post--by addressing the actual issue and saying nothing about "ceilings".

                 

                The only opinion I expressed is the one that stated I believe Lin will eventually be a pretty solid player but it is going to take a little patience (a la Billups).  In my book that is a compliment as Billups was a premier PG in this league.  See what you want to see, but that's the "concrete" of it.

                 

                You started this post by stating, "It needed to be said".  That is fine.  You could have said it without the color commentary.  Adding in the miserable people comment and the implication that only failures believe in ceilings is what drew my attention.  It is you that has the poor form.  Express your opinions on whatever ideas, beliefs, and concepts you want (within reason), but please avoid making it personal.

                 

                You want a forum with moderators who sit idly by waiting for missteps?  Where is this place?  That's like hiring outsiders to come in and manage a company, or business, instead of promoting from within.  They will seldom be respected for anything other than their title and position over others.  That's not what we do around here. 

                 

                We enjoy spirited discussion here.  It appears you are on board with that.  We'd like you to stay, but please respect our community, its members, and its rules.


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                #75 YaoMan

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                  Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:45 PM

                  @YaoMan

                  first an foremost I'm not blaming Lin for any losses........I never said that. I responded to a poster who was blaming McHale for Lin's subpar play. I said if you want to know why Lin's play was subpar look no further than Lin himself. I disagree that Lin will ever return to Linsanity. it was a fluke created by the system he was playing in at the time. if you're looking at his time in NY as his ceiling you are way off base. he will probably never achieve that level of success again. he is a mediocre PG who can have nights of brilliance, but lacks consistency to become anything above that,

                   

                  Ok, gotcha - it can be misconstrued as such from the tone of your post to the original poster which is understandable (this post should have been about burn time not really the coaching staff). I never said Lin could return to Linsanity either, especially not in the western conference but that would be his ceiling because he has actually done that. Saying that's not his ceiling would be inaccurate because it's an accomplishment that he's already achieved. How is that way off base? A ceiling is the highest point for which you can reach, so if it's a spot he's ready reached, then that is your ceiling.

                  His mediocrity lies in his consistency, I agree.  I would disagree that he is mediocre in ability because his brilliance has been shown albeit not often lately. We could list 300 guards who have played in the NBA in the last 10-15 years and only a handful has posted triple double from the bench (only 15 total in the last 29 years and 8 of them guards). 

                   

                  I've always maintained that equal value is needed with all the role players with Lin being one of them. I would just have to say, (and perhaps not justified) but I do get some disdain from you when discussing about him.  Of course, you have every right to that - I would just have to disagree with a couple of your points.


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                  #76 YaoMan

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                    Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:05 PM

                    Yaoman, I was mostly being facetious.  The post you are responding to was directed at the original post (the one that was allegedly about McHale, but was clearly about Lin).  I couldn't take that post very seriously and so I responded in kind.  As far as the use of synergy sports...who thinks that is bad besides Lin supporters?  Nobody.  I use all kinds of stat sources including 82games, basketball-reference, vorped, nba.com, espn, AND synergy.  I'd say that is a fair grouping of data sources.  I don't rely on the "ratings" at synergy because they include all players in those--even ones with incredibly small sample sizes.  I do like how they refine their offensive and defensive breakdowns.  A lot can be learned from them, but apparently not everyone is into that.  Context is important and they provide a lot of it.

                     

                    Calling Bev's defense "getting under the skin defense" just isn't accurate.  The numbers do not lie.  His effect on defense can be seen and measured.  The only thing people who want to believe he is not a high level defender can do is ignore that.

                     

                    Again, the "sabotage" comment was a joke--again referring to the OP which implied McHale was sabotaging.  I know what sabotage means, but thank you for making sure.  If I were going to make a "hater" statement you best believe I'd get my money's worth--which is to say there would be a whole lot more than a simple joke which was never meant to be taken seriously.

                     

                    When one looks at their numbers with context it is pretty easy to see things clearly.  Here, let's look at numbers from NBA.com:

                     

                     

                    If anyone wants to claim Lin's fg% is superior to Bev's that is true.  What they ignore is PB takes half his shots from behind the arc whereas Lin takes a third of his shots from behind the arc.  That will cause PB's overall fg% to trend down a bit more.  Thus, the 4.4% overall difference is not that big of a difference and the fact that Beverley shoots the 3 better than Lin shouldn't be ignored.

                     

                    Factor in the extra possession we gain from Bev's offensive rebounding, the extra steal, and the 1.5 possessions we lose to Lin's turnovers and I think we can call it even...and possibly advantage Beverley.

                     

                    Regarding defense, Bev does most of his work against the NBA's elite PG's...Lin does not.  The fact that his defensive numbers are superior to Lin's is even more dramatic considering this context.

                     

                    I like Lin and I root for him to succeed because he is a Rocket.  I apologize to those who are annoyed by these Lin-centric posts (again, this thread was never about McHale).

                     

                    JG, gotcha.  I know you crack jokes and such but because of the absurdity of this thread not really being about McHale, I wasn't sure if you were just trying to annoy the guy/girl who wrote the original message.  I didn't mean to repeat the sabotage definition back to you but Lin's character is one thing I always thought was honorable. His consistency is a different story.

                    However, I also didn't want you to think I was taking away any value from Bev with his under the skin defense. I know what he does and the disruption it causes on opposing guards. I meant it as a compliment because he doesn't have the tools of a Gary Payton, yet still plays defense in the same manner (and gets almost the same results) as the former all star pg.  I agree with you wholeheartedly that he has equal if not more value than Lin.  I think (as I have said before) that a balance of role players stepping up (not all at once and all the time, of course) and displaying their abilities when needed will be key.  It runs through Harden, Howard, Parsons first and foremost and then Bev, Lin, Hamilton, Jones, D-Mo, Asik. (I'm still also hoping for a Garcia sighting when he's 100%) 

                    I think Bev has a lot of intangibles (offensive rebounding, on the ball defense, screen defense and loose ball awareness ) and pieces that Lin does not have and on the flip side of the coin, I think Lin has better open court vision and is a better attacker of the rim and scorer.  Those are all valuable to the Rockets and both have proven to give success to the Rockets.  And I know you and I would both appreciate it if we did focus on every role player equally (Harden should reign supreme in shout outs and discussion).

                    I knew you were not a "hater" as you do a good job of being so cordial in just about every post - I guess I was looking for confirmation that you were joking around which I now know and feel better about! :) And boy did I ever hate watching Bryce Drew trying to be a legit PG for this team a few years back - just thought I'd let you know that!


                    Edited by YaoMan, 11 March 2014 - 05:07 PM.

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                    #77 YaoMan

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                      Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:14 PM


                      The only opinion I expressed is the one that stated I believe Lin will eventually be a pretty solid player but it is going to take a little patience (a la Billups).  In my book that is a compliment as Billups was a premier PG in this league.  See what you want to see, but that's the "concrete" of it.

                       

                      I actually would probably never have placed Lin in the same conversation as Billups for comparison but that is a very high compliment.  If your analogy becomes true, I will dance and parade with all excitement as a Billups type player could really push this team over the top. I agree with the patience part and he (Lin) needs "court maturation" as I would put it.   


                      Edited by YaoMan, 11 March 2014 - 05:15 PM.

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                      #78 rockets best fan

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                      Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:17 PM

                      @YaoMan

                      careful.........trying to read tone into any post opens the door to speculation which leads to misunderstanding. I would disagree with your view of what a players ceiling is. to me a players ceiling is his highest sustained level of play. since Lin only sustain Linsanity for a few weeks and has been unable to duplicate it since. I don't consider that his ceiling. I consider it a fluke. many players are capable of a flash in the pan and then never capable of duplicating that same level of play ever again in their careers. Lin falls more into this category than any other to me. I can respect the fact you like the guy, but I'm not  drinking the kool-aid.


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                      you can only warn a man that the bridge is out.....if he keeps driving he's on his own B)


                      #79 YaoMan

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                        Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:58 PM

                        @YaoMan

                        careful.........trying to read tone into any post opens the door to speculation which leads to misunderstanding. I would disagree with your view of what a players ceiling is. to me a players ceiling is his highest sustained level of play. since Lin only sustain Linsanity for a few weeks and has been unable to duplicate it since. I don't consider that his ceiling. I consider it a fluke. many players are capable of a flash in the pan and then never capable of duplicating that same level of play ever again in their careers. Lin falls more into this category than any other to me. I can respect the fact you like the guy, but I'm not  drinking the kool-aid.

                         

                        I am very courteous in all my replies so I believe I am careful.  As to reading into tones - yours seems to be one full of negativity and down play.  Your opinion is highly biased against him and it is prevalent in pretty much the 30 plus posts that I've read in which you discuss him. I won't make any difference in your mind or anyone else for that matter.

                        He played to the "Linsanity" for 2 months for the record, by the way. And that is a flash in the pan that a lot of "non-stars" have not been able to ever do.  And his sustaining that depends on the type of offense and team he is on.  I like the guy - yes but I like all Rockets and will defend any member of this team, I as I defended Bev starting too.  I defended Parsons starting over Budinger when Bud was playing well.  I defended Von Miller when Rockets played him.  Heck I even defended Asik when he was being a baby.

                        Speaking of tone, saying I drink the Kool-Aid could be seen as a confrontational phrase so I will say this back, I'm not the one drinking Hater-ade on a member of the team I am rooting for.  I just don't understand your level of contempt and probably never will.  So if you like to respond, I welcome that so that you can have the last word. I will say this discussion is closed and we can talk about other topics that you may not have such a negative opinion of.  I will say no more of this topic to you.


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                        #80 QNoir

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                          Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:58 PM

                          I'm answering this because you asked. Yes, I was offended when you called Lin "mediocre" and a "fluke." It was mean-spirited. Indeed, I am a fan of Lin, and a lot of other players. So I responded. My response was simply the one that came to mind. You can't separate the use of a concept in argument and belief in the concept's existence. I'm not going to argue the motives of Zeus without letting you know he's fictional. This is me, mingling.

                           

                          Johnny, you asked me to elaborate. I signed up fairly recently. I enjoy several True Hoop Network blogs. This is the only one where in order to contribute, you have to have declare a single opinion of who the "best" player is, as if it's some sort of oath in exchange for acceptance. That's just childish.


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