84 replies to this topic

[Mario Peña]

Scottie Pippen.

I never liked him as a player and the whole scenario just never seemed right to me though he is definitely candidate hit biggest letdown especially for guys who came up watching NBA in the 90's. I consider Pippen overrated for the obvious reasons to this day.

[Steven]

I do remember him leading the JailBlazers to the Conference Finals, tho.

[dbd]

I hate to say any negative about anybody but some of you have way overrated Bev. His flashy plays and contract was part of the thinking I believe.

Bev had 2pt (1-6 shooting), 5 boards, 3 asst, and fouled out of the game. Curry got 25 pt (8-15 shooting) and 6 ast.

Yes I saw the entire game. Bev defensive plays was good and he was best Rockets perimeter for the season.

 

But, his offensive numbers 2 pt and 3 ast was plain bad. You are delusional if you think that is good.

 

His defense, 5 boards and fouled out of the game and opposite PG scored 25 points. Yes, Bev wasn't on Curry all the time and unfortunately this is the way we always measured a player. (i.e. we compared PG to PG, SG to SG, etc.) You are not that good if you are not available by fouling out of the game. Period.

 

Yes. although Bev got only 5 boards, his two offense rebounds were critical play. Again, he was the best Rockets perimeter defensive player of the game. What I am trying to say was, people got carried away and overrated it. I hope we can judge all our players with fair and right. Overvaluing a player was as bad as demeaning it.

[thejohnnygold]

Everyone knows offense isn't Bev's job so pointing that out isn't a big deal.

 

Curry scored 15 of his 25 behind the arc.  With him you just have to live with that.  He only scored 3 buckets inside the paint--one of which was a pull up just inside the free throw line.  He also made 4 free throws.  So, from a different perspective I like the effort given.  He only got 2 shots at the rim, was only put on the line twice, and was forced to beat us from outside.  I can live with that.  If you take away a near half-court heave he was 5-7 from three...he won't do that every time.

 

Bev is not a box score guy.  If the Rockets didn't like him I am pretty sure they could have traded for a replacement.  Steve Blake was obviously available as were others.

 

Yes, Bev had an off night.  So did some other guys whose job descriptions actually focus on scoring--Parsons, Howard, and Lin.  Why are we focused on this?  Even funnier, why is it Beverley sucks when he has a bad night, but Lin is just being held back by Harden and McHale when he has a lousy night?  I swear, cable news channels are less biased than some of the opinions floating around here.

[miketheodio]

Everyone knows offense isn't Bev's job so pointing that out isn't a big deal.

 

Curry scored 15 of his 25 behind the arc.  With him you just have to live with that.  He only scored 3 buckets inside the paint--one of which was a pull up just inside the free throw line.  He also made 4 free throws.  So, from a different perspective I like the effort given.  He only got 2 shots at the rim, was only put on the line twice, and was forced to beat us from outside.  I can live with that.  If you take away a near half-court heave he was 5-7 from three...he won't do that every time.

 

Bev is not a box score guy.  If the Rockets didn't like him I am pretty sure they could have traded for a replacement.  Steve Blake was obviously available as were others.

 

Yes, Bev had an off night.  So did some other guys whose job descriptions actually focus on scoring--Parsons, Howard, and Lin.  Why are we focused on this?  Even funnier, why is it Beverley sucks when he has a bad night, but Lin is just being held back by Harden and McHale when he has a lousy night?  I swear, cable news channels are less biased than some of the opinions floating around here.

it's always strange to compare rocket PGs to teams with all star type PGs.  like you said, our offensive production comes from other positions on the team.

 

i realize the PG and PF positions are trending in the NBA lately, but that isn't the way the rockets are designed.

[Mario Peña]

I agree johnnygold that it is not a big deal. To me it seems obvious if you want some numbers that tell the story of Beverly's impact you would look past the box score and notice the Warriors shot about 40% and scored 89 points through 4 quarters, those are Beverly's numbers. He starts at the point of attack by picking up Curry around half court and disrupting the Warriors from the get go. Curry could have easily been neck and neck with Harden around 40 points were it not for Beverly.

[Dayak]

Paul, Parker, Curry, Lillard, Lawson, Dragic, Conley, Holiday, Isiah Thomas. Bev is what we need.

[redfaithful]

Westbrook...

[timetodienow1234567]

So we have to look at the entire defense to evaluate bev. I had no idea he was our center and anchored our defense. He is a good defender and a minus on offense often. I think he's a good fit next to harden when his shot is falling when it's not it's ugly to look at. Very very inefficient shooter.

[Dayak]

He is better defensively than other guards in the team. When his shot isn't falling then we can put Lin in. I'm starting to love how McHale managing the rotation for our backcourt players.

I don't think Bev will be starting for other teams in NBA but he is a good fit next to Harden in this team.

[Mario Peña]

So we have to look at the entire defense to evaluate bev. I had no idea he was our center and anchored our defense. He is a good defender and a minus on offense often. I think he's a good fit next to harden when his shot is falling when it's not it's ugly to look at. Very very inefficient shooter.

This is one of the more rediculous posts I have read in this thread.

[Knickabokkaz]

it's always strange to compare rocket PGs to teams with all star type PGs.  like you said, our offensive production comes from other positions on the team.

 

i realize the PG and PF positions are trending in the NBA lately, but that isn't the way the rockets are designed.

JG should I say anything? 

 

I'll just post a stat when it compares to starting scoring pg's in the league that average more then 11-12 shots per game with a much higher usage rate: 

In all games Lin has 11+ FG attempts:

46% FG%, 36% from 3, 18ppg, 5 assists.

Win-Loss record in those games : 16-1

[timetodienow1234567]

I just said using team statistics to evaluate a guards defense is folly. They don't have as much impact on team defense as a center. That's pretty widely known. And he's pretty inefficient. He has a sub .400 shooting percentage. So neither of those points are wrong IMO. And considering he takes almost 10 shots a game... Why is my post ridiculous?

I admit that bev is a good defender and a great one sometimes, but just because I'm evaluating him objectively, I'm ridiculous. I admit that his defense is key as harden is not consistent on that end and am not advocating Lin starting.

[thejohnnygold]

Knick, you know that including his Linsanity numbers is a fallacy .  We've all seen the numbers.  That's not what's under question.  We know Jeremy can score.  Despite rm90025's repetitive post (4th time?) that Lin can shut down every major point guard in the game (which I simply won't take the time to refute again) it is Beverley that does the defending.  Find any statistical (adjusted or otherwise) +/- stat that says different.  I can't.  I also use my eyeballs.  They concur.

 

Check out this guy's website:  Weird URL, But Great B-Ball Stats

 

That is done on the same tableau software that Richard Li uses.  There is tons of data on his site--not just that chart--enjoy.

 

I do believe that one has to look at team performance when it comes to defense.  No single player makes it happen.  Yes, centers are the linchpins, but without 4 other guys doing their jobs it doesn't work.  When Bev is on the court the defense is better.  People can say all they want about it but it doesn't change that fact.  Our offense is better when he plays too (I realize this is aided by playing next to Harden, Howard, and Parsons).  Basically, when Bev is on the court our team hums like a well-oiled machine.

 

It's funny, Bev's head to head numbers are all negative when you compare him to his opponents' production.  Yet, in those same games our team production is a very solid positive.  This is the illusion.  It looks like he is doing poorly, but he's the guy who jumps on the grenade so that others may thrive.  Beverley would rather have a stat line that read 0 points, 10 rebs, 4 steals, 2 blocks, 0 turnovers than one that reads 20 pts, 6 assists, 3 rebs, 1 steal, 4 turnovers.  Guys like him are rare, undervalued, and under-appreciated.  No one is arguing that he is some top-flight point guard.  He is the epitome of a junk yard dog type--and nobody likes messing with them.  Funny enough, they often don't get much love either.

 

Ha, who was it....I think Parsons that was asked who would win if the Rockets players had a gladiator-style fight.  He picked Beverley to be last man standing.

 

This argument always devolves into individual merit with only that scooped together 16-1 team record( over 3 seasons including a 7-0 linsanity) to support it.  Surely everyone can see that is not a sustainable pace.  That would eclipse Jordan's Bulls team that went  72-10.  At that pace Jeremy's team would finish about 78-4 or 77-5.  Really?  Are we sure that W/L record is indicative of anything resembling a sustainable reality?  The reality is we can all recall that outside of Linsanity, that W/L record came against weak competition and is not a strong statistic.

 

Patrick Beverley is the right guy.  Jeremy Lin is a good player and I am glad we have him--he does a lot for this team.  Beverley is the right guy the same way Chalmers is the right guy next to LeBron.

 

It's like a meal.  Steak and potatoes.  Nobody is confused about who the star of the dish is, but it's just not as good without that potato (Beverley).  Why would you pair a New York Strip (Lin) with a 24 oz. bone-in ribeye (Harden).  You don't.  You put a potato, a salad, some broccoli, brussel sprouts, whatever around him....now, if you can go all out and add that lobster tail (Dwight Howard) then you've got yourself a meal

[Dayak]

Good analogy JG and you succesfully make me feel hungry now, lol.

[miketheodio]

JG should I say anything? 

 

I'll just post a stat when it compares to starting scoring pg's in the league that average more then 11-12 shots per game with a much higher usage rate: 

In all games Lin has 11+ FG attempts:

46% FG%, 36% from 3, 18ppg, 5 assists.

Win-Loss record in those games : 16-1

it's more about style of play than numbers.

[Knickabokkaz]

Knick, you know that including his Linsanity numbers is a fallacy .

Lol JG those #s I posted were just this year

[dbd]

This is not NFL. In NBA, players have to play both ways. Saying "not a big deal" to a player inability to play one side is ridiculous at least. 

You need to play both ways to win a championship. Chalmers  play both ways and he doesn't have to cover defense for Wade and LeBron.

[thejohnnygold]

Lol JG those #s I posted were just this year

 

Ah, yeah...I was thinking about the W/L numbers from when Lin starts w/o Harden not when he shoots 11+ shots.  My bad.  I agree with you that the Rockets are better when Lin is taking more shots.  I do think Lin should get 12+ shots a game.  I also think it should come as a 6th man with Beverley starting beside Harden.

 

I think Parsons was 8-24 (3-10 from 3 if memory serves) in the GS game.  Lin was 3-8.  I don't know why there was such a disparity, but Lin could definitely have taken more shots...not sure it would have changed anything though.

[Willk]

This is not NFL. In NBA, players have to play both ways. Saying "not a big deal" to a player inability to play one side is ridiculous at least. 

You need to play both ways to win a championship. Chalmers  play both ways and he doesn't have to cover defense for Wade and LeBron.

How did the Bulls win 6 championships with PGs that could only play one way? BJ Armstrong, John Paxson, Steve Kerr, Randy Brown were all either defensive or offensive players not both way players