128 replies to this topic

[linonlyfan]

Need the aggresive J-Lin so we can at least trade him for something useful if he really doesn't fit. 

 

The guy needs the green light mentality when he comes in the 2nd unit. Puff those stats and everyone wins.

[rocketrick]

I think I'll give up on hoops for the year; Felton and Hardaway Jr. combined for 38 points against the Lakers the other night. Before I go, I'd like to offer my thoughts on the Lin debate. I have spent most of my life in LA and Tokyo. In Tokyo Jeremy Lin isn't much more than a curiosity, but the Japanese love baseball, and the success of their players In the MLB is a source of very intense national pride, and when they fail, it's genuinely painful. So, I can understand how Chinese/Taiwanese, or Asian Americans in general (Asian Americans seem to identify much more with each other as a group, whereas Asians who live is Asia don't seem to do so), feel about Jeremy Lin. However, they need to understand that Jeremy Lin will never be an elite point guard or an all-star calibre player. In my opinion, we've had a large enough sample size to be able to conclude that.

However, he is a guy that can give you 10-15 points off the bench fairly consistently because on most nights, the kid can score. In the NBA, that's quite an accomplishment in itself, and I think the lin fans should embrace that. If Lin had never had his improbable run with the Knicks, I think everyone would be amazed at what he has achieved (no other Asian has ever done it) and would be overjoyed by it. I think that lin fans should take pride in the fact that Lin, an Asian. is not only playing in the NBA, but contributing, making some spectacular plays and, on some nights, pouring in a ton of points.

Anyway, hope you guys have a great season.

Thanks for your input.

 

However, I wish to add that the importance of Lin going forward is not individual, but team, in terms of forward results.

 

Jeremy has without a doubt been a great teammate ever since joining the Rockets and is the exact opposite of Asik this season which in my opinion bodes well for both Lin and the Rockets going forward.

 

Jeremy has been on a weighted see-saw pretty much this entire season, beginning with losing his starting job to Beverley, becoming a valuable 6th man off the bench early in the season, then having to move back to the starting lineup due to unexpected injuries to Harden and Beverley, to the current date of having to transition back to an effective bench player, but with a much diminished bench in comparison to the start of this hopeful season.

 

I believe the Rockets good fortune to come this season is in part to how Lin is able to transition back to an effective bench player that has a positive impact on games going forward.

[Knickabokkaz]

Told you, 11+ shots.. didnt have a great shooting night but still got to the line. Missed some bunnies missed some 3's but... All about OPPORTUNITY like I said to begin this topic. 8 assists, and really good D and was a real good playmaker.

 

Look I don't care if you don't agree with me, maybe because this whole forum basically is against Lin and Lin fans, but the #'s don't lie. It's not necessarily about # of shots, its more about getting Lin "in" to the game, a "flow" as I mentioned. He's naturally a "scorer" so that's his way of getting into it. It's like, if you don't get D12 the ball in the post, or if Harden doesn't have the ball in his hands, you can make the same argument. But since it's about Lin, it's like no one wants to listen to reasoning.

 

Here's Kobe on Lin back in Linsanity..  

[Steven]

That's because Hardin is better then Lin. We have been making the same points. Mine are Lin doesn't fit with Hardin because their is only one ball so he should be shipped out for cap space and a latte, anything would be better then him gettin 4 minutes come playoff time to "run" the offense. He is a decent player, who the media made out to be a star. Can anyone name who else has ever made back-to-back covers of Sports Illustrated? He would probably average 16 and 8 on a different team that allowed his to dominate the ball, but here he will never get that chance.

[rocketrick]

That's because Hardin is better then Lin. We have been making the same points. Mine are Lin doesn't fit with Hardin because their is only one ball so he should be shipped out for cap space and a latte, anything would be better then him gettin 4 minutes come playoff time to "run" the offense. He is a decent player, who the media made out to be a star. Can anyone name who else has ever made back-to-back covers of Sports Illustrated? He would probably average 16 and 8 on a different team that allowed his to dominate the ball, but here he will never get that chance.

I agree that Harden is a better player than Lin. However, that doesn't mean that Lin still can't play an integral role for this team as has been proven this season. That is primarily why Coach McHale and the Rockets decided to bring Lin off the bench this season to play the key role of 6th man. However, multiple injuries this season to Beverley and Harden have relegated Lin to the starting lineup for basically half the season. Lin played a very solid game tonight, 8 assists with only 4 turnovers and he continued attacking the basket the entire game. I also spotted him playing solid defense on Parker a few times tonight as well.

I just don't understand why some on this board are so desperate to see Lin get traded.

[Knickabokkaz]

That's because Hardin is better then Lin. We have been making the same points. Mine are Lin doesn't fit with Hardin because their is only one ball so he should be shipped out for cap space and a latte, anything would be better then him gettin 4 minutes come playoff time to "run" the offense. He is a decent player, who the media made out to be a star. Can anyone name who else has ever made back-to-back covers of Sports Illustrated? He would probably average 16 and 8 on a different team that allowed his to dominate the ball, but here he will never get that chance.

Steven did you know he averages 21/8 in games Harden is OUT? Decent players don't come in and do what he did, understated. Highest amount of points in history first 7 games? Ny, race, storyline... You'd be an idiot to think that didn't have a role in it. Of course it did. But that doesn't mean basketball wise if given the GREEN LIGHT like. Lowry right now... He can't average 18/8 on any team. That makes him more then just "decent". He's no ALLSTAR, he's no SUPERSTAR, but can be a star in the right situation. It's up to the coach to put him there.

This is from clutchfans:

In 9 games without James Harden, Jeremy Lin has held averages of:

21.2PTS, 6.3AST, 3RPG, 4.2 T/O, 1.5 AST/TO

shot 84.8% from the line with 7.3 attempts per game,
shot 48.8% from 3PT land, (42.8% sans Sixers game),
shot 47.5% from the field with 13.3 Attempts.

The team has gone 5-4.

Now I was having a very mild mannered discussion with another poster on the topic of basically whether or not he or she felt that 'linsanity' (hate that word) was more or less a fluke.

Now obviously the league has had plenty of time to scout Lin since his time in New York, where shakey dribbling and jumpitis still plagued his play, but in 8 games without Carmelo Anthony, Lin has held averages of:

25 PTS, 9.5 AST, 3.6RPG, 6.5 T/O, 1.46 AST/TO

shot 70.7% from the line with 8.1 attempts per game,
shot 38.5% from 3PT land
shot 50.7% from the field with 17.8 Attempts.


The team went 7-1.

Thus, leading to a total of 17 games (not sure if this is enough statistical evidence), where Lin without another ball-dominant player in Harden and Anthony, has held averages of:

23PTS, 7.8AST, 3.3RPG, 5.3T/O, 1.46AST/TO

shot 77.8% from the line with 7.7 attempts per game,
shot 44.9% from 3PT land
shot 49.2% from the field with 15.4 Attempts.

If you haven't heard the postgame interview with Lin, he even talked about gaining a "rhythm" as I stated in the first post on this topic. Getting more PnR, more angle screens. All things that McHale never seems to put him in with the second unit.

[Mario Peña]

As a longtime Rockets fan I am in no way interested in McHale putting Lin in a position to produce statistically. What I am interested in is Rocket wins and to Jeremy Lin being the best sixth man he can be that can on occasion score in bunches.

I get so tired of these Lin topics.

[Knickabokkaz]

As a longtime Rockets fan I am in no way interested in McHale putting Lin in a position to produce statistically. What I am interested in is Rocket wins and to Jeremy Lin being the best sixth man he can be that can on occasion score in bunches.
I get so tired of these Lin topics.

Just so you know, when Lin shoots 11+ shots per game! THE HOUSTON ROCKETS.. Are now 12-1. So maybe it's in the HOUSTON ROCKETS better interest to make sure he does what he does.

I get so tired of Mods hating on topics that fans express their opinions on. It's the whole basis of a forum. If that were the case maybe you should just create all the topics and only let fans comment on the topics you make. Otherwise maybe you should stop complaining yourself.

[Cooper]

Important to note who the rockets played in those games. Jazz, Raptors, sixers, Knicks twice, Nuggies wolves, Pellies twice, the wiz and spurs.

[Mario Peña]

Just so you know, when Lin shoots 11+ shots per game! THE HOUSTON ROCKETS.. Are now 12-1. So maybe it's in the HOUSTON ROCKETS better interest to make sure he does what he does.
I get so tired of Mods hating on topics that fans express their opinions on. It's the whole basis of a forum. If that were the case maybe you should just create all the topics and only let fans comment on the topics you make. Otherwise maybe you should stop complaining yourself.

I don't hate, hate is a pretty strong word. I do not use that in its modern slang form and I would rather you not describe me in such manner especially since it is completely inaccurate. I am also a Rockets fan and I often disagree with the way the Lin topics are posed, I am pretty sure I have a right to disagree as a long time Red94 forum member.

To suggest I create all the topics is kind of funny.

[thejohnnygold]

Knickabokkaz, I like that 12-1 stat.  Perhaps in the 30 mpg Jeremy is getting he should be looking to score more as that is ample time to get that many shots off.  I also like that you used solid statistical support.  Now, that stint in NY can't truly be counted--we all know that.  It was awesome, but clearly isn't representative of Lin's expected performance game to game.

 

In those games his 6.1 assists are nearly 50% better than his average--that probably helps the winning % too.  That 1.5 a/to ratio is still atrocious no matter how you slice it

[thenit]

Knickabokkaz, I like that 12-1 stat.  Perhaps in the 30 mpg Jeremy is getting he should be looking to score more as that is ample time to get that many shots off.  I also like that you used solid statistical support.  Now, that stint in NY can't truly be counted--we all know that.  It was awesome, but clearly isn't representative of Lin's expected performance game to game.

 

In those games his 6.1 assists are nearly 50% better than his average--that probably helps the winning % too.  That 1.5 a/to ratio is still atrocious no matter how you slice it

 

I think 6 assists per game is HIS average as a starter. The career average gets dragged down by games when he played a couple of minutes here and there. However his ass/to ratio during linsanity was just bad. In Houston its about 2/1 which is still not good, but ok.

[thejohnnygold]

www.basketball-reference.com - a place where one can find real data.  It is fast, easy, and informative.

 

The 6.1 assists is his actual number from the games with 11+ shots that we were talking about.  I went and did the math.  His assists/game as a starter are 4.7 and as a reserve are 3.6.

 

As a starter he averages 3 turnovers per game (avg 33 mpg).  Thus a 4.7 to 3.0 assist to turnover ratio, or 1.57 a/to.

 

As a reserve he averages 2.3 turnovers per game (avg 27.3 mpg).  Thus a 3.6 to 2.3 assist to turnover ratio, or 1.57 a/to.  (He's consistent!)

 

His USG% stays almost identical moving from 20.5 as a starter to 20.4 as a reserve so that has no bearing on the matter.

 

2:1 assist to turnover ratios are, in my understanding, the bare minimum standard for a PG in the NBA.  Lin averaged 6.1 : 2.9 last year for a 2.1 a/to ratio--the highest of his career--in New York it was exactly 2.0 (6.2 : 3.6).

 

His USG% in New York was a whopping 28.1 for the season (For reference, James Harden's was 29 last year and is 27 this year--so roughly in the middle of how much Harden was used last year and this year ).  During the 7 game win streak which started Linsanity he averaged 9.1 assists and 5.3 turnovers for a 1.7 a/to ratio.  He has a range and it seems to sit between 2.1 and 1.57.

 

The bottom line is, just like any measure of performance, there is a bare minimum necessary to justify one's place on the floor and on a team.  Lin is the Ronnie Brewer of PG's   I'm kidding...just jokes people...don't get angry.  I think the sooner people stop thinking of him as a PG the better off he will be.

 

For reference, here are some a/to numbers from guys who aren't exactly respected as passing PG's:

 

Brandon Jennings: 8.2 to 3.1

 

Kemba Walker: 5.0 to 2.5

 

Kyrie Irving: 6.2 to 2.6

 

Jrue Holiday: 7.9 to 3.1

 

Raymond Felton: 5.6 to 2.1

 

Mario Chalmers: 5.1 to 2.2

 

Patrick Beverley: 2.4 to 1.1

 

Lin is a fine player who can do a lot of things on the floor.  Ball security is not one of them.  Everyone of those guys is posting a 2.0 a/to ratio or better.

 

The best PGs do stuff like this:

 

Chris Paul: 11.2 to 2.5

 

Ty Lawson: 8.9 to 3.0

 

Kyle Lowry: 7.5 to 2.2

 

Mike Conley: 6.2 to 1.9

[thenit]

Valid points I was referring to career starter his assists are about 6. I agree with what you are saying though, so its semantics.

[thejohnnygold]

Valid points I was referring to career starter his assists are about 6. I agree with what you are saying though, so its semantics.

 

Career 5.0 assists to 2.6 turnovers.  BASKETBALL-REFERENCE.COM

 

[rocketrick]

www.basketball-reference.com - a place where one can find real data.  It is fast, easy, and informative.
 
The 6.1 assists is his actual number from the games with 11+ shots that we were talking about.  I went and did the math.  His assists/game as a starter are 4.7 and as a reserve are 3.6.
 
As a starter he averages 3 turnovers per game (avg 33 mpg).  Thus a 4.7 to 3.0 assist to turnover ratio, or 1.57 a/to.
 
As a reserve he averages 2.3 turnovers per game (avg 27.3 mpg).  Thus a 3.6 to 2.3 assist to turnover ratio, or 1.57 a/to.  (He's consistent!)
 
His USG% stays almost identical moving from 20.5 as a starter to 20.4 as a reserve so that has no bearing on the matter.
 
2:1 assist to turnover ratios are, in my understanding, the bare minimum standard for a PG in the NBA.  Lin averaged 6.1 : 2.9 last year for a 2.1 a/to ratio--the highest of his career--in New York it was exactly 2.0 (6.2 : 3.6).
 
His USG% in New York was a whopping 28.1 for the season (For reference, James Harden's was 29 last year and is 27 this year--so roughly in the middle of how much Harden was used last year and this year ).  During the 7 game win streak which started Linsanity he averaged 9.1 assists and 5.3 turnovers for a 1.7 a/to ratio.  He has a range and it seems to sit between 2.1 and 1.57.
 
The bottom line is, just like any measure of performance, there is a bare minimum necessary to justify one's place on the floor and on a team.  Lin is the Ronnie Brewer of PG's   I'm kidding...just jokes people...don't get angry.  I think the sooner people stop thinking of him as a PG the better off he will be.
 
For reference, here are some a/to numbers from guys who aren't exactly respected as passing PG's:
 
Brandon Jennings: 8.2 to 3.1
 
Kemba Walker: 5.0 to 2.5
 
Kyrie Irving: 6.2 to 2.6
 
Jrue Holiday: 7.9 to 3.1
 
Raymond Felton: 5.6 to 2.1
 
Mario Chalmers: 5.1 to 2.2
 
Patrick Beverley: 2.4 to 1.1
 
Lin is a fine player who can do a lot of things on the floor.  Ball security is not one of them.  Everyone of those guys is posting a 2.0 a/to ratio or better.
 
The best PGs do stuff like this:
 
Chris Paul: 11.2 to 2.5
 
Ty Lawson: 8.9 to 3.0
 
Kyle Lowry: 7.5 to 2.2
 
Mike Conley: 6.2 to 1.9

Thanks JG for all your excellent research. I would just like to add that the first list of PG's (call them average or slightly above average) including Jennings, Holiday, Chalmers, etc. tend to shoot most of their shots from outside and don't really attack the basket nearly as relentlessly as Jeremy Lin. I distinctly remember when Linsanity was in full bloom in NY that there was some concerns over Lin's higher than usual turnover ratio but that as long as Lin was on his hot streak, that a few extra turnovers were OK as long as he continued to be the force that he was on the court at that time.

It certainly proves how valuable PG's like CP3, Ty Lawson, Conley and Lowry are as these guys do attack the basket quite often and have figured out how to keep their turnovers down at the same time. Man oh man, if Lin could just improve his assist to turnover ratio significantly, he would no doubt be seen as one of the better PG's in the league today which is saying quite a lot since he really is more of a combo Guard.

[RudyT1995]

I get so tired of these Lin topics.

 

Yeah, me too.  

 

I don't know what's really left to be debated.  Lin doesn't play well with Harden, his cap number is too high for a bench player, and he needs to be traded.  End of story.

[rocketrick]

As a longtime Rockets fan I am in no way interested in McHale putting Lin in a position to produce statistically. What I am interested in is Rocket wins and to Jeremy Lin being the best sixth man he can be that can on occasion score in bunches.

I get so tired of these Lin topics.

 
 

Yeah, me too.  
 
I don't know what's really left to be debated.  Lin doesn't play well with Harden, his cap number is too high for a bench player, and he needs to be traded.  End of story.

Just think about it this way, Lin Detractors, 17 months from now Lin will have played out his contract with the Rockets. So you probably will get your wish, just not likely as soon as you would prefer.

I'm one of those that is not a LOF but that believes that Lin can contribute to the success of this team going forward, particularly as the vital 6th man, which most successful teams have on their roster.

[thenit]

Career 5.0 assists to 2.6 turnovers.  BASKETBALL-REFERENCE.COM
 

As a starter for nyk he averaged 6.2 and last year6.1. I agree with your points just clarifying the stats I meant

[Knickabokkaz]

13-1 Rockets record Lin shooting 11+ shots, 18/7/7? Wanna complain about his turnovers? He had 2 this game, he must suck.
Btw the team had 7 guys in double figures, who misses ISO ball? Just curious

Oh did I mention Lin's CLUTCH?

Lol wanna know the funny thing? As much as you complain and put him under the microscope analyzing every little flaw. You actually deep down cheer for the guy haha

Edited by Knickabokkaz, 30 January 2014 - 04:33 AM.