128 replies to this topic

[RudyT1995]

Don't compare harden and Lin to those 2 pairs of players, it's disrespectful friend.

 

What da?  Lol.  

[Mario Peña]

Sure--72-3 Knicks, with Earl Monroe and Walt Frazier--everyone said they could never play together, and they won a championship. Or how about Isaiah Thomas and Joe Dumars on the late 80s Pistons, two dominant guards who both needed the ball: two championships.

1) It's hard to have too much talent, especially in the backcourt. 2) Where there's a will, there's a way.

I don't remember Dumars being ball dominant when I watched those games, though he could drive and create Joe was best as a spot up shooter. Now Vinnie Johnson was ball dominant so I remember him being able to both relieve Thomas while giving the offense that spark. He wasn't called Microwave for nothing. I have thought Lin could be our Microwave which is a luxury for the Rockets.

[RudyT1995]

I don't remember Dumars being ball dominant when I watched those games, though he could drive and create Joe was best as a spot up shooter. Now Vinnie Johnson was ball dominant so I remember him being able to both relieve Thomas while giving the offense that spark. He wasn't called Microwave for nothing. I have thought Lin could be our Microwave which is a luxury for the Rockets.

Agreed.  Harden/Lin doesn't compare to all world pairings like Thomas/Dumars, Monroe/Frazier, or even LeBron/Wade.

 

The biggest difference between Lin and some of the other names being thrown around is that those other guys could at least shoot or play defense.  Dumars, for instance, was a dead eye shooter AND one of the best defenders in the league.  So some of these comparisons are really missing out on the reason that Harden and Lin don't fit well together.  It's because Lin doesn't make spot up jumpers consistently - if you remove the first ten games of this season when he was scorching hot, Lin's spot up numbers for his career are really bad - and because both Lin and Harden struggle on defense.  Those are mechanical problems that won't easily be fixed.  

 

As for the people bringing up the few games when Harden and Lin have looked good together, look at who the games were against.  I'll bet that they were against teams that play really bad perimeter defense.  Either that or Lin was having a good shooting night and could be used as an effective spot up shooter/ floor spacer.  The real test for these guys comes against good perimeter D teams on nights that Lin doesn't have his shot.  And so far, the results in those games have been quite ugly.  

Edited by RudyT1995, 02 February 2014 - 08:09 PM.

[Buckko]

Our whole team struggles against elite Defense because they become complacent and jack up terrible 3s. To blame bad game planning and terrible losses on two players rather than the team is ill advised.

[RudyT1995]

Our whole team struggles against elite Defense because they become complacent and jack up terrible 3s. To blame bad game planning and terrible losses on two players rather than the team is ill advised.

Wow, just wow.  "blame bad game planning and terrible losses on two players".  Nothing that I wrote above could even remotely be interpreted to mean that.

 

Seriously, the reading skill of some of the members here is embarrassingly bad.  

[rocketrick]

Toronto had a similar problem with Rudy Gay and DeMar DeRozan.  Toronto has one of the smartest GMs in the league, and his solution was to trade Rudy Gay.  The result was that the team started to play much, much better, and DeRozan made the All-star team for the first time in his career.
 
Cleveland also has a similar problem with Kyrie Irving and Dion Waiters.  Cleveland has one of the worst management teams in the league, and their solution was to keep both players, turn Waiters into a sixth man, and hope that things somehow work out.  The result so far has been a brutally underachieving team that hasn't been able to pull it together even after acquiring Luol Deng due in part to Irving and Waiters inability or unwillingness to adjust to each other.

DeRozan/Gay pairing is not comparable position wise as DeRozan is the SG and Gay is the SF. Kinda hard to compare Harden/Lin who play the PG/SG or, as some have mentioned in numerous posts, SG/SG.

Irving and Waiters is a better comparison although 3 years younger in comparison to Lin/Harden. Just like Lin/Harden, only played together for about 1 1/2 seasons. Both pairs are a work in progress.

It seems like the most successful SG's in the history of the NBA have had excellent spot up shooters that also played the PG position. Kobe had Derek Fisher for instance. MJ had Steve Kerr for instance.

Jeremy Lin no doubt has improved his outside shooting touch this season in comparison to last season. He spent the summer working on that aspect of his game and I expect he will spend more time on it this upcoming offseason.

More importantly, once the Rockets return to health, Lin can return to playing the vital 6th man role as envisioned by the Rockets coaching staff at the start of this season. No doubt Lin will have some opportunities with the ball in his hands while Harden is taking a breather. Then depending on game flow, matchups, etc. Coach McHale can either sub back in Beverley or keep Lin on the floor. There have been times where all 3 (Harden, Lin and Beverley) have played together and that is also an option depending on game flow, matchups, etc.

Edited by rocketrick, 02 February 2014 - 09:02 PM.

[rocketrick]

As for the people bringing up the few games when Harden and Lin have looked good together, look at who the games were against.  I'll bet that they were against teams that play really bad perimeter defense.  Either that or Lin was having a good shooting night and could be used as an effective spot up shooter/ floor spacer.  The real test for these guys comes against good perimeter D teams on nights that Lin doesn't have his shot.  And so far, the results in those games have been quite ugly.

Well, the fact of the matter is the Rockets have dealt with injuries all season long. Harden has missed 8 games, Beverley has missed 14 games and Lin has missed 11 games. Before anyone starts thinking this is a bad excuse, check out this fact:

Other than the Dec 12 and Dec 13 games (Lin's first 2 games after missing 5 prior games with injury) and Jan 20 and Jan 24 games (Beverley's first 2 games after missing 8 prior games so Lin's first 2 games coming off the bench after Beverley's return), the Rockets have simply not played games against playoff contenders other than the first few games of the season and these 4 just mentioned when all 3 primary guards were healthy. (Games missed counted just against playoff contenders).

Overall, I count the Rockets having played 32 games thus far against playoff contending teams this season. Only 10 of those games did the Rockets have all 3 of Harden, Beverley and Lin available and not injured. And as I mentioned above, 4 of those most recent games came with either Lin or Beverley back for their first and second game after being out for 2 weeks or longer with injury. The other 6 came at the start of the season. Even then, Beverley missed a couple of games just prior with injury so Lin went from starting to back on the bench, then starting when Harden went down with injury, etc.

In summary, how can anyone with any logic look at what the Rockets have dealt with injury wise (and I'm only discussing our 3 main guards in this topic) and figure out any trends in terms of consistent play, inconsistent play, who plays better with which other players on the court, etc.???

It's simply amazing to me that the Rockets have a 32-17 record considering the consistently changing player availability pretty much the entire season! But please, let's don't give Coach McHale and his staff any credit, I certainly don't mean to start a new topic whether or not there is a "need to fire McHale" for supposedly the Rockets underperforming to date.

Edited by rocketrick, 02 February 2014 - 09:47 PM.

[rocketrick]

Overall, I count the Rockets having played 32 games thus far against playoff contending teams this season. Only 10 of those games did the Rockets have all 3 of Harden, Beverley and Lin available and not injured. And as I mentioned above, 4 of those most recent games came with either Lin or Beverley back for their first and second game after being out for 2 weeks or longer with injury. The other 6 came at the start of the season. Even then, Beverley missed a couple of games just prior with injury so Lin went from starting to back on the bench, then starting when Harden went down with injury, etc.

So, as I mentioned in my prior post, the Rockets have played 10/32 games this season vs. playoff contending teams when all 3 of Harden, Lin and Beverley were healthy (enough) to play the same game. The Rockets record in those 10 games is 6-5. The losses came to the Clippers early in the season, the 3 point loss to Dallas at home when Monte Ellis banked in a 3 at the buzzer, a loss to Portland on the road (Lin's first game back after missing the prior 5 games against contending teams and subsequently missing 3 more games which proves he probably came back too soon) and the losses to Memphis late in January shortly after the return of Beverley to the starting lineup and the return to the 6th man role for Lin.

I miscounted one game in my prior post. I counted Memphis only once when they beat us back to back and in both games the Rockets did have all 3 of our primary guards on the court.

Thus a total of 11 matchups this season against playoff contenders when all 3 Rockets primary guards were healthy enough to play with a record of 6-5. 1 loss to Clippers, 2 to Grizzlies, 1 loss to Portland (although we won the other 2 games shorthanded) and 1 loss to Dallas (although we won 1 game shorthanded).

Edited by rocketrick, 02 February 2014 - 10:21 PM.

[rocketrick]

Although we lost the last 2 games to Memphis with all 3 of our primary guards healthy enough to play, don't forget the Rockets did beat Memphis back in November when Harden was out. Thus the only playoff team we have lost to with and without all of our primary guards that we are still winless against is the Clippers. We only played them twice so far this season, both very early in the season and with 2 more matchups to look forward to later this season.

Edited by rocketrick, 02 February 2014 - 10:30 PM.