83 replies to this topic

[Losthief]

I agree T-Jones is the better option with Harden/Lawson on the floor. while I will agree D-Mo has good post moves, trying to make him sound like the best post player in the league is way off base. in a half court setting D-Mo is better than Jones, however both bring talent to the table that will be needed if we are to win the championship. they are both our players and we need both. I expect their minutes to be similar and affected by the lineup the opposing team is running. T-Jones will probably start because D-Mo is not as good of an option with D12. neither of these guys is a defensive juggernaut, but both have players they are effective against. just because D-Mo is a 7 footer who can walk and chew gum at the same time does not make him athletic. he has slow foot speed and can't jump that high. his game is not based on athletic ability, it's based on the proper use of his height. while he has good upper body strength, his lower body is still weak. that's why he gets pushed around like he's in a pinball machine. I like D-Mo, he still has a way to go in his development. listening to some of the posters here I swear they were talking about Duncan

http://stats.nba.com...=Regular Season

 

DMO's Avg. Speed is 6th best on the team and tied with corey brewer and top among big men. I use to suffer from this too, just because someone has longer legs and thus takes less strides does not mean he is slower than a shorter person using more strides if they cover the same amount of ground in the same time, thats merely an optical allusion. I get this is not top line speed and is an average of distance/minutes, but he'd not be the top big man on the team in avg speed if he was 'slowfooted'. Also, you aren't a league leader in charges if your slowfooted either....

 

http://www.draftexpr...tiejunas-1300/:

http://walterfootbal...dmotiejunas.php

also read his strengths at draft, athleticism and ability to run the floor (speed) are on there.

 

Also, compare tjones and dmo at there normal positions (PF):

TJones: http://www.82games.c...415/14HOU14.HTM

DMO: http://www.82games.c...415/14HOU19.HTM

 

Similar off rating (though i think jones is a bit more efficent scoring especially) but dmo is better defensively at the pf. With the drop off of lawson to bev in def and gain in off thats why i think dmo should start, cause he adds to def to replace what lawson takes away. Though I agree we need both, I just think Jones best skills (scoring/running the floor) are wasted in the starting line-up while DMO's (passing, defense, post) are more useful with the starters. TJones with the bench brigade would dominate and could feature more offensively which is where he excels.

Edited by Losthief, 03 August 2015 - 05:38 AM.

[rockets best fan]

@Losthief

we don't need scoring in the starting lineup. Harden and Lawson will handle the lions share of that. most games start out with both teams trying to get out in the fast break especially us. T-Jones is more effective there. as the game settles half court opportunities increase where D-Mo can give us the advantage. if T-Jones comes back like he did at the beginning of last year he is about to have a breakout season. I believe D-Mo is about to take another step too. I said in an earlier post that I didn't really believe we were as weak at PF as some seem to think. neither of these guys are perfect, but combined they can be special. I think it's wonderful we have two young PF's budding at the right time and debating which will have the better year and higher ceiling. combined they offer us the flexibility to match any lineup that can be thrown at us and excel while we do it. I think we will see our PF position become one of the strengths of the team by midseason if we stay healthy. I also said before it even happened that the Rockets should let Josh walk. that even if he stayed he was going to be behind both these players in the rotation because they will both be better than him. I still believe that. McHale will have so many options that Morey may have built a team that not even he can foul up

[thejohnnygold]

For the record, I don't agree with Cooper that there "aren't 3 more athletic centers in the NBA"....I am also not putting D-Mo in Tim Duncan territory.  That being said, I wonder if we're watching the same games  .

 

I do believe that guys like Jordan, Drummond, Meyers Leonard (yup.  keep your eyes on this kid.), Noah, Horford, plus lots of the new kids on the block (Embiid, Towns, Noel, Gobert, etc.) are more "athletic" than D-Mo.  However, some of them are not that much more athletic and the ones who are generally have a distinct lack of skills to pair with it.  (That's what makes a guy like LeBron so special)

 

I think we are dealing with a relativity problem.  Relative to DeAndre Jordan, D-Mo looks like he's wearing lead boots.  Relative to most of the fans in the seats at the arena, D-Mo is a thoroughbred.  He's a solid athlete and anyone who watched the entire video I posted earlier would see him doing very athletic stuff.

 

As far as his skills go--he's not in Duncan territory (yet).  If D-Mo can develop one go-to move like Duncan's turnaround bank from the left block he very well could be Duncan-esque in the post.  Just like Pop said in his recent interview--you need a big who can command a double team.  I think D-Mo is one of those caliber players.  For those who think he is just some slightly above average 7 footer with some nifty post moves--wow.  Daryl Morey would like you all to apply for GM positions with the other 29 teams in the league.

 

By the way, for his height, Terrence Jones isn't that athletic.  I would say he is slightly above average relative to his peers.  His big advantage is his above average handles.  Is Terrence more athletic than the Morris twins, Blake Griffin, Derrick Favors, Josh Smith (even with the extra years--he used to be more athletic), or a whole slew of other guys in the 6'8" to 6'10" range?  I don't think so.  (Granted, this is based on relativity to his peers because it seems that's how we're judging things--obviously, Jones is an exceptional athlete).

[Cooper]

To clarify i said 7fters, Noel is 6-10 at best, Embiid might never play. Noah's legs don't work anymore thibs ruined him. Towns is likely  more athletic but id like to see him play a real game first. I was thinking of Jordan Mozgov and leonard as the more athletic guys. Gobert probably is Id forgotten about him. The real point is Dmos more than capable of being a quality starter next to howard.

[marbony81110]

For the record, I don't agree with Cooper that there "aren't 3 more athletic centers in the NBA"....I am also not putting D-Mo in Tim Duncan territory.  That being said, I wonder if we're watching the same games  .

 

I do believe that guys like Jordan, Drummond, Meyers Leonard (yup.  keep your eyes on this kid.), Noah, Horford, plus lots of the new kids on the block (Embiid, Towns, Noel, Gobert, etc.) are more "athletic" than D-Mo.  However, some of them are not that much more athletic and the ones who are generally have a distinct lack of skills to pair with it.  (That's what makes a guy like LeBron so special)

 

I think we are dealing with a relativity problem.  Relative to DeAndre Jordan, D-Mo looks like he's wearing lead boots.  Relative to most of the fans in the seats at the arena, D-Mo is a thoroughbred.  He's a solid athlete and anyone who watched the entire video I posted earlier would see him doing very athletic stuff.

 

As far as his skills go--he's not in Duncan territory (yet).  If D-Mo can develop one go-to move like Duncan's turnaround bank from the left block he very well could be Duncan-esque in the post.  Just like Pop said in his recent interview--you need a big who can command a double team.  I think D-Mo is one of those caliber players.  For those who think he is just some slightly above average 7 footer with some nifty post moves--wow.  Daryl Morey would like you all to apply for GM positions with the other 29 teams in the league.

 

By the way, for his height, Terrence Jones isn't that athletic.  I would say he is slightly above average relative to his peers.  His big advantage is his above average handles.  Is Terrence more athletic than the Morris twins, Blake Griffin, Derrick Favors, Josh Smith (even with the extra years--he used to be more athletic), or a whole slew of other guys in the 6'8" to 6'10" range?  I don't think so.  (Granted, this is based on relativity to his peers because it seems that's how we're judging things--obviously, Jones is an exceptional athlete).

I like D.Mo and he is good player. I think he is crafty and smooth. T.Jones is athletic and definitely more athletic than D.Mo. I'm going to let the athletic thing go because I think we will never agree. Let's agree to disagree.  They both have strengths and weaknesses. Neither is truly better than the other. One should be played over the other depending on the lineup. D.Mo has a go to post up game that makes him more of a legitimate half court threat than Jones. However, Jones' ability to play off the ball and finish with playmakers (Harden and Lawson) makes him just as much of a threat.

The whole thing about 20 post ups for D.Mo is never going to happen with Lawson, Harden, and Howard on the team. No matter how much you hope it is never going to happen. I can see something around 10-12. D.Mo has the post skills to handle 20 post ups, but it just isn't going to happen.

[slick shoes]

I want to start by restating that T Jones is probably my favorite Rocket as currently constructed for many reasons, most of which are listed in previous posts.

What I am confused by is no ones mention of TJ's unability to guard any of the top tier PF's in the league, most of which are in our conference AND division. Duncan, LMA, Griffin, Davis, Randolph/Gasol, Nowitsky (okay, maybe not the most recent incarnation of Dirk), etc. all make him look foolish over and over again. DMo actually stands a chance at slowing these guys down. Terrence becomes invisible. I am unsure if he us simply undersized or if these players are really THAT good (maybe a combination of both) but I feel like that aspect alone warants DMo a starting spot.

[thejohnnygold]

I like D.Mo and he is good player. I think he is crafty and smooth. T.Jones is athletic and definitely more athletic than D.Mo. I'm going to let the athletic thing go because I think we will never agree. Let's agree to disagree.  They both have strengths and weaknesses. Neither is truly better than the other. One should be played over the other depending on the lineup. D.Mo has a go to post up game that makes him more of a legitimate half court threat than Jones. However, Jones' ability to play off the ball and finish with playmakers (Harden and Lawson) makes him just as much of a threat.

The whole thing about 20 post ups for D.Mo is never going to happen with Lawson, Harden, and Howard on the team. No matter how much you hope it is never going to happen. I can see something around 10-12. D.Mo has the post skills to handle 20 post ups, but it just isn't going to happen.

 

Sounds good.  Let's get back to enjoying our two young PF's.

 

Here's highlights of Jones scoring 26 & 11 last season  .

 

Here's more D-Mo!!!  In particular, check out the 8:06 mark against Indiana.  This is what I foresee lots of and is why I think a D-Mo post-up offense benefits everyone.  Teams will be so focused on trying to stop his post game that Harden, Dwight, and Co. will be feasting.  D-Mo could literally average a double-double of points and assists    (OK, maybe I'm going a little too far now  )

 

 

In addition, this video shows more of D-Mo's passing, shooting, leading the break, and being an all-around stud.

 

@Slick Shoes, I agree that D-Mo's defense is better; although, most defenders struggle against those guys--that's why they're All-Stars.

[Losthief]

@Losthief

we don't need scoring in the starting lineup. Harden and Lawson will handle the lions share of that. most games start out with both teams trying to get out in the fast break especially us. T-Jones is more effective there. as the game settles half court opportunities increase where D-Mo can give us the advantage. if T-Jones comes back like he did at the beginning of last year he is about to have a breakout season. I believe D-Mo is about to take another step too. I said in an earlier post that I didn't really believe we were as weak at PF as some seem to think. neither of these guys are perfect, but combined they can be special. I think it's wonderful we have two young PF's budding at the right time and debating which will have the better year and higher ceiling. combined they offer us the flexibility to match any lineup that can be thrown at us and excel while we do it. I think we will see our PF position become one of the strengths of the team by midseason if we stay healthy. I also said before it even happened that the Rockets should let Josh walk. that even if he stayed he was going to be behind both these players in the rotation because they will both be better than him. I still believe that. McHale will have so many options that Morey may have built a team that not even he can foul up

 

i 100 percent agree....the thing i think we are disagreeing on is I see TJones as the offense player while you see DMO as the offense player. Also, I disagree that we play a slower pace with the second unit w/ harden and howard than with the bench (I think we play faster w/o them out there). But long story short I agree with you that we have two good options at PF, i just think we would limit TJones offense impact by placing him in the lineup with Lawson, Howard, and Harden. DMO is more effective w/o scoring the ball (screener, passer, defense) in my opinion than TJones. Not a better overall player necessarily, but TJones is special when he is a option to finish and score which as the 4th or 5th option he won't get enough imo.

[majik19]

Here's Zach Lowe's (from ESPN/Grantland) take on D-mo and Jones (in the context of their upcoming possible extensions): 

http://grantland.com...ney-community/�

 

Terrence Jones and Donatas Motiejunas: These might be the two most intriguing players of this whole lot. Jones has barely logged 3,000 minutes over three seasons, but he has the potential to be the most versatile non–Anthony Davis two-way player from this draft class — especially if that languid 3-point stroke morphs into a reliable weapon. Would it be insane for Jones to hold out for at least $15 million per season? Probably not, even though he would likely be the least accomplished player ever to sign an extension that pricey. Would it even be insane for Houston GM Daryl Morey to accept that kind of deal? No one really knows, but Jones’s team will begin extension talks at an eye-popping number.

Motiejunas hasn’t played much more than Jones, but he emerged last season as a legit post-up hub — a pivoting blur of cruel pump fakes and flippy hooks capable of slipping nifty passes around double-teams. He started hitting 3s from outside the corners, improved his defense, and survived at center during Dwight Howard’s absence.

I’d bet slightly against either getting an extension from Houston. Morey will take a killer deal if it falls into his lap, but he knows restricted free agency is a cudgel, and he prizes flexibility. If he gets wind that a star can be had next summer, he needs to be able to act immediately. He could extend one or both of these guys and still do that, provided he gets them on tradable contracts, but the job is easier if they’re on the books as cheap cap holds Morey could make disappear in an instant.

[cointurtlemoose]

1) "cudgel" - nice word usage!

 

2) 15/season would be just too much, imo. I think the absolute max I'd be willing to extend Jones for is 11-12ish. Even that is pushing it. Whether his drifting in and out of games is a physical issue or a mental issue, it's been a fairly consistent pattern of behavior. Motiejunas' track is a much more steady and consistent climb to effectiveness. Jones started out with more potential, but Motie seems to be a better bet going forward. Just my take.

[YaoMan]

I agree with JG and Slick shoes and JG has pretty much articulated most of what I would say comparing TJ and D-Mo. 

My addition to the thread that I don't think has been mentioned much (or at all) is that D-Mo's skill set will last longer when age catches up and athleticism starts to wane. D-Mo is effective below the rim and his improved shooting has shown he's working on a longer, defining career.  Something that is still an asset when age starts becoming a factor. He will not need athleticism to create his own shots from the post, to make those nifty passes, to handle the ball for a big guy and craftiness around the rim.  These are skills that can still cause damage no matter how much your athletic abilities wane.

TJ on the other hand; his abilities and skills mostly all stem from the athlete in him: Jumping ability, blocking shots from the weak side, running and gunning on the break and rolling with vertical authority. I still see glimpses of a solid player who can contribute effectively and be a part of a winning team. Make no mistake, I like TJ a lot and still think he has potential.

But based on the progress I have seen from both (D-Mo more), if I had to choose one for the long term right now, I'd have to pick D-Mo.

Edited by YaoMan, 05 August 2015 - 05:49 PM.

[thenit]

While both of them are good and have potential, I believe DMo has the higher potential on both sides of the floor. I think people get deceived by swat blocks and thunderous dunks in overvalue players.

My point is jones has had two playoffs when called upon defending the PFs and failed twice making him unplayable. If Howard, Bev and DMo was out and asked to fill in as the anchor in D and also contribute offensively I do not believe we would have made the playoffs. DMo did this for about 25 games anchoring the defence and chipping in around 15+ points 8 reb and 3+ assists in that span. That's the biggest difference.

However I think if jones can extend his range and hit jumpers and 3s in this team he can contribute offensively but I have doubts that he will be strong enough to compete against the elite 4s.

[rockets best fan]

let me make this one point. I keep hearing posters talk about defense on elite 4's and how D-Mo can play against them and T-Jones can't  fact is neither can shut down elite 4's. D-Mo is better at post defense and T-Jones is better on the wing. we will face both kinds of offense on our path to the championship. we need them both. both of these players will reach starter level PF. neither will be a star. which ever is your favorite probably sways your view of them. they both will be good......just in different ways. my favorite is T-Jones. listening to posters attempt to diminish his abilities simply because they like D-Mo is discouraging. I like D-Mo too, but I still think T-Jones will be the better player over the long haul for the way this team plays. I also keep hearing that T-Jones disappeared in this years playoffs. T-Jones had several games where he contributed. yes Josh cut into the minutes and started for some games, but to act like T-Jones disappeared is flat out incorrect. try evaluating the pro's and con's on both D-Mo and T-Jones and your likely conclusion will be they are a lot closer than you think. they have very different skillsets, but each has a chance to impact the PF position. it will just be from different angles. if T-Jones was as limited as some of you seem to think then why would his trade value be high? Morey has held on to both of these players for a reason....while neither is a star together they can deliver star production even while they continue to grow. soon a decision will have to be made regarding them. the Rockets probably will not be able to keep both after this year. to assume either of these guys will not be the one with the ticket out of town at this point is premature. I'm sure the Rockets will take their time making that call.

[slick shoes]

let me make this one point. I keep hearing posters talk about defense on elite 4's and how D-Mo can play against them and T-Jones can't  fact is neither can shut down elite 4's. D-Mo is better at post defense and T-Jones is better on the wing. we will face both kinds of offense on our path to the championship. we need them both. both of these players will reach starter level PF. neither will be a star. which ever is your favorite probably sways your view of them. they both will be good......just in different ways. my favorite is T-Jones. listening to posters attempt to diminish his abilities simply because they like D-Mo is discouraging. I like D-Mo too, but I still think T-Jones will be the better player over the long haul for the way this team plays. I also keep hearing that T-Jones disappeared in this years playoffs. T-Jones had several games where he contributed. yes Josh cut into the minutes and started for some games, but to act like T-Jones disappeared is flat out incorrect. try evaluating the pro's and con's on both D-Mo and T-Jones and your likely conclusion will be they are a lot closer than you think. they have very different skillsets, but each has a chance to impact the PF position. it will just be from different angles. if T-Jones was as limited as some of you seem to think then why would his trade value be high? Morey has held on to both of these players for a reason....while neither is a star together they can deliver star production even while they continue to grow. soon a decision will have to be made regarding them. the Rockets probably will not be able to keep both after this year. to assume either of these guys will not be the one with the ticket out of town at this point is premature. I'm sure the Rockets will take their time making that call.

 

I want to mention this because I do not want to be confused as a TJ detractor. He has a skill set that DMo does not have and the same is true in reverse. I also agree that to make a deep run in the upcoming season, we will need BOTH of them to play AND be productive, both defensively and offensively.

 

Another thing is I think various posters misinterpreted what I have said about our PF's against the elite PF's of the west. These are ELITE players. You do not stop them, you simply try to slow them down as much as you can. Each player will have better chances against different teams/line ups which is why I am hoping that we can keep both TJ and DMo. I do not see LMA dropping 48 against DMo, but I also don't see DMo defending a smaller four as well as TJ. Both have their merits and I want both in Rockets red for as long as possible.

 

/rant

[Losthief]

Just to be clear as well, though I think I've stated this before in almost every post along the way, I actually talent-wise see very little difference in overall talent level between tj and dmo, in fact probably lean to tj in a vacuum. However, that said for our line-up and how our team is put together I think DMO is a better fit, especially as a starter. There is an argument for putting your best 5 out there and letting them figure it out, but personally I don't hold much to that philosophy. If you do, then I can accept tj as your man (and respect those who feel he's a better fit), my only issue was people saying DMO wasn't athletic when talking up tj...which was nonsense. Both of them are young and elite athletes, just different types of athletes and skillsets. In vacuum they are close, and tj is 1 1/2 years younger so I would keep him (like sans dwight). For the present team, I merely hold that DMO is a better fit as I see him as a better screener, passer, and overall defender.

 

I'll add this, if we do trade someone cause we don't want to extend/re-sign both, whoever brings the best package back value-wise is who I would choose.

Edited by Losthief, 06 August 2015 - 07:57 PM.

[cointurtlemoose]

One more tidbit, is that DMo allows us to go small pretty effectively. He can play the 5 well and still stretch the floor.

 

However, we don't really go small all that much...

[majik19]

 

However, we don't really go small all that much...

 

I expect that to change this season. Too much depth in the backcourt (I think), plus the whole league is moving that way a bit. 

[cointurtlemoose]

^ This is true. Especially if we actually play KJ this year (we will). Plus, I keep forgetting we have Thornton now...

[NorEastern]

I like D.Mo, but I like T.Jones more. I don't care who starts as long as T.Jones is paired with Ty Lawson. Jones will feast on opponents with his ability to cut to the basket and finish to go along with great athleticism.

I think I'm in the minority in thinking of D.Mo as not a true 7 footer. He gets beat up and overpowered on the defensive end even though he has good positioning most of the time and seems to know what he should be doing. He just doesn't have the physical ability needed to excel on the defensive end. He isn't bad but isn't good either, especially for a guy with his height.

He offensive game is good. He is a very good back to the basket player. He would thrive more on the block with set plays. He is not a cutter/finisher. He can do it to some degree but that isn't his game. That's T.Jones' game. Both players need to develop their games another level. As an overall player I think T.Jones get the nod in my opinion. However, it's not like there is some big gap between the two. They are almost interchangeable and lineups should dictate who plays when. Again, as long as T.Jones is paired with Lawson and possibly Capela I think the Rockets will do absolute damage to anyone inside on offense. 

If you look at the tape you will see that DMo is almost never backed down on defense. Hibbert can back him down, but Hibbert can back down Mount Rainier. And on offense DMo just blows defenders back into the restricted zone with ease. Jones, while of similar size, just gets blown up by like sized opponents. He cannot hold position. That is a problem.

[slick shoes]

If you look at the tape you will see that DMo is almost never backed down on defense. Hibbert can back him down, but Hibbert can back down Mount Rainier. And on offense DMo just blows defenders back into the restricted zone with ease. Jones, while of similar size, just gets blown up by like sized opponents. He cannot hold position. That is a problem.

Hopefully the Chuck Wagon can change that with TJ.