45 replies to this topic

[Steven]

Anyone else hear that Harden was playing through an injury the ENTIRE season, so he had to give up something in order to even be on the court? Decent explanation if his defense improves this season.

[thejohnnygold]

Anyone else hear that Harden was playing through an injury the ENTIRE season, so he had to give up something in order to even be on the court? Decent explanation if his defense improves this season.

 

I did not hear that.  You got a source?

 

I know his feet (or at least one of them) were a nagging injury, but they never really let on how severe that was.  Most players get dinged up throughout the season--kind of hard not to.  Still, a foot injury is tough given that there is no way to hide it nor avoid it without sitting out entirely.

[rocketrick]

OK, so if our team (USA) fell short, who would have taken the most blame?

I have no doubt that would have been "our" James Harden.

Of course, the critics have been silent as the USA continues to blow out international team after team.

Still, it does give me pause, the thought that if the USA happened to lose a heartbreaker, the automatic blame would clearly fall on James Harden


Just so frustrating to me personally to continue to try to be positive when there are so many multiple Harden haters on this board.

When the USA wins the FIBA Championship on Sunday, Harden will likely receive ZERO (0) credit as the Team Leader.

Whereas if the USA happened to fail, well of course the Harden Hate would be at a peak on these boards, probably moreso since that horrible loss to Portland, at Portland, in Game 6 a few short months ago

[timetodienow1234567]

Why is criticism hate? Everybody agrees that harden is a top 10 player, probably top 5. There are legitimate flaws in his game and just because some point that out doesn't mean they hate harden. That's what I dislike about posts like yours. Unlike JG you cannot hold a civil discussion. You resort to calling others haters or trolls rather than just saying you disagree.

If I was to respond in the same manner you do I would call you an apologist who obviously thinks harden is the GOAT and does not deserve any criticism.

Can we stop this nonsense?

[rocketrick]

Really? And just who else on this board truly believes in Harden going forward?

The Harden criticism is only topped by the Hakeem criticism 2-3 years before he figured everything out and lead the Rockets to back to back Championships.

Just really pathetic and I have no clue why I even bother to try and supposedly contribute on this board...........

All I can say is I will be there in my seats rooting for my team while the majority of the rest of you will simply continue to be a negative influence on my team, the Rockets.

[thejohnnygold]

Really? And just who else on this board truly believes in Harden going forward?

The Harden criticism is only topped by the Hakeem criticism 2-3 years before he figured everything out and lead the Rockets to back to back Championships.

Just really pathetic and I have no clue why I even bother to try and supposedly contribute on this board...........

All I can say is I will be there in my seats rooting for my team while the majority of the rest of you will simply continue to be a negative influence on my team, the Rockets.

 

I would argue that the Hakeem criticism was far less since the internet was in its infancy at the time.  There were not fan forums like this.  If you wanted to vent about a player you had to sit on hold forever trying to get on a talk radio show.

[Mario Peña]

Though we should always try to be civil I don't blame Rick here especially considering all the extreme case Lin fans we had to suffer through last year. Some of us who are perceived as Harden apologists actually don't mind criticism of Harden but it should be balanced. What is unreasonable is primarily or only ever spending time on topics that criticize Harden. I would like to see diverse topics that are balanced but I rarely ever see regular positive conversations that would balance the regular criticism. Credit to Rahat for staying relatively balanced.

Last season Jeff Van Gundy did an interview on the Lowe Post and I'll paraphrase what he said below:

You can spend most of your time appreciating the 90% of good things a player does or you can spend most of your time obsessing over 10% of bad things the player does.


Though Van Gundy was speaking about Westbrook in a way it is relevant here. Look guys I'm realistic and I know the Harden conversation won't balance itself out till he wins deep in the post season but it's just boring to hear forum members beat the same drum over and over, I guess some of you think that about me. Ha!

[thenit]

@rick

So I guess two wrongs make it right? U.S should coast through a world championship and if they didn't win, the "blame" would fall on those who play poorly.

Harden is great but when you are a superstar you get the praise and the blame when the team doesn't succeed.
Example look at most championship winning teams, the stars get the praise and also the criticism if they don't succeed because they will always have the most impact on a teams success. If we ever win, you bet that harden would get most of the accolades and the role players will barely be mentioned.

[Losthief]

I would add that although both Howard and Harden are very very very effective players, top 10-15 players easily, they are not necessarily the most pleasurable or elegant to watch.

 

Harden's elitism on offense shows itself most in his shot selection, and forays to the rim where he draws fouls. (also his pocket passing is excellent especially on the pick and roll, but i find that elegant so left it out of my point).

 

Howard's elitism continues to move more towards positioning, speed (for his position), and balance instead of freak athleticism and jumping from his younger days.

 

As fans, especially of other teams i would guess, their 90% as JVG was talking about for the two rockets cornerstones are not as aesthetically pleasing in a vacuum. Thus, their faults get glossed over a bit less than say...a high flyer like Vince Carter in Toronto, Chris Paul nowadays, or even McGrady in his Houston years. Because what those players do flashes and entertains more; the 10% is focused on less.

 

Yet, for H and H watching free throws and fouls (And god forbid any casual fan pay much attention to defensive positioning and moving your post opponent out of his spots) isn't as flashy or engaging so the bad 10% every player has shines a little brighter for H and H than say...durant's ability to turn his hips on d or lebron's average (look it up if you doubt me) free throw shooting.

 

Just my theory

Edited by Losthief, 15 September 2014 - 12:53 AM.

[Johnny Rocket]

I actually saw some of the game today.  Harden was great, and while he occasionally lost his man on defense, he showed excellent effort and was quite good at using his quick hands to disrupt passing lanes.   I also liked the fact that when the drive wasn't there, he calmly rotated the ball to Irving or Thompson.  

[rocketrick]

As fans, especially of other teams i would guess, their 90% as JVG was talking about for the two rockets cornerstones are not as aesthetically pleasing in a vacuum. Thus, their faults get glossed over a bit less than say...a high flyer like Vince Carter in Toronto, Chris Paul nowadays, or even McGrady in his Houston years. Because what those players do flashes and entertains more; the 10% is focused on less.
 
Yet, for H and H watching free throws and fouls (And god forbid any casual fan pay much attention to defensive positioning and moving your post opponent out of his spots) isn't as flashy or engaging so the bad 10% every player has shines a little brighter for H and H than say...durant's ability to turn his hips on d or lebron's average (look it up if you doubt me) free throw shooting.
 
Just my theory

I guess I just don't have a clue as a long-time Rockets fan.

For Harden and Howard to be completely dissed in this post is, well, par for the course on this board.

It's OK to be critical, I understand that.

But to say that particular poster far enjoyed watching T-Mac when the Rockets had 0 chance, no chance of making any noise in the playoffs to THIS team lead by Harden and Howard just simply leaves me scratching my head and wondering why the hell I even bother to post here.

[rocketrick]

@rick

So I guess two wrongs make it right? U.S should coast through a world championship and if they didn't win, the "blame" would fall on those who play poorly.

Harden is great but when you are a superstar you get the praise and the blame when the team doesn't succeed.
Example look at most championship winning teams, the stars get the praise and also the criticism if they don't succeed because they will always have the most impact on a teams success. If we ever win, you bet that harden would get most of the accolades and the role players will barely be mentioned.

Except that it's clear, very clear, the USA first team simply sat out this tournament.

Yes, Harden is a superstar. My point being a significant number of "experts" predicted Spain would triumph over the second-hand team the USA formed for this foray.

And if you even bother to read 1/10 of the posts on this board about Harden, you would know that people KILL to find a reason to blame Harden, laugh at Harden, despise Harden, choose to throw Harden into the trash heap, etc.

That was my simple point.

Very quiet on these boards while the USA and Harden were cleaning up in FIBA. Only because the USA was so dominant.

Edited by rocketrick, 16 September 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[rocketrick]

I would argue that the Hakeem criticism was far less since the internet was in its infancy at the time.  There were not fan forums like this.  If you wanted to vent about a player you had to sit on hold forever trying to get on a talk radio show.

And so that obviously made it "more acceptable" at that time to be a Dream critic?

Wow. I am speechless.

[rocketrick]

Not to mention the fact that it is burned in my brain that something like 75-80% of Rockets fans at that time absolutely wanted The Dream to be traded yesterday, and how come it was taking so long because no chance Dream can ever be the leader that takes the Rockets to a title (much less two in a row).

[Losthief]

I guess I just don't have a clue as a long-time Rockets fan.

For Harden and Howard to be completely dissed in this post is, well, par for the course on this board.

It's OK to be critical, I understand that.

But to say that particular poster far enjoyed watching T-Mac when the Rockets had 0 chance, no chance of making any noise in the playoffs to THIS team lead by Harden and Howard just simply leaves me scratching my head and wondering why the hell I even bother to post here.

 

When did i diss Harden or Howard in my post? Please read more carefully if your going to criticize. All i said is casual fans (aka non-rockets fans, so not me or you or really anyone who would bother to register and post on a rockets forum) probably enjoy some other top talents aesthetically more in a vacuum. Which let me phrase another way for you:

 

First disregard the emotional investment in winning. Now, T-macs style (along with other players) was more captivating than H&H in this said vacuum. This is also true for Duncan, who is clearly to me the best player of this era but hardly gets mentioned in that conversation, cause again, he's not as 'pretty' to watch as Lebron/Kobe/Durant/et al.

 

Now, me personally 'the poster', I am emotionally invested, also I happen to like watching Howard (and other big men) play defense alot, so again I enjoy watching H&H way more than other players. For example, i literally fast forwarded every part of the fiba games harden was on the bench, sure those other guys can play but I could care less about them in that tournament, but I would probably bother to watch harden play a pick up game on grainy cell phone feed on youtube just cause I want to see where he's at physically, skill-wise, etc etc. at all times. He's on my team so he's immediately more important than other players cause I don't watch in a vacuum. Now that said I also enjoyed watching T-Mac when he played and was still relatively healthy, but I enjoy watching the present rockets just as much.

 

Finally, your revisionist history on the t-mac/yao era expectations is astounding. T-mac was a top 3 player (when acquired) and Yao was a potentially top 3 offense center (and a force). Health, bench, etc derailed those teams not talent. Sure they had 0 chance in hindsight, but at the time they were considered at least pseudo-contenders (which is where H&H Rockets are at right now). 

 

I mean they were considered the next contenders for the rockets in the mold of:

 

Malone's Rockets

Sampson/Dream Twin Tower Rockets

Dream (Drexler) Rockets

Dream/Pippen/Barkley Rockets (****i mean how did this not make it even a year, sigh....)

T-Mac/Yao Rockets

Yao/T-Mac/Artest Rockets

Now Harden/Howard Rockets

 

Just cause only Malone's and Dream's teams got to the finals (and only Dream won) doesn't mean expectations weren't equal for the other groups in there respective times.

 

p.s. im guessing the 'criticism' of H&H is the top 10-15 player comment? All that means is that they are among the top 10 or at largest top 15 players in the league, so they are somewhere in 1,2,3,etc to 15. Not that they are 15 better players than them. Honestly imo (just my opinion) anyone in the top 10 (and maybe the top 15) can be the best player in any given series of 7 games (yes, even over say, Lebron, look what Dirk did). It's not a criticism to say someone is a top 15 player, and to have two of them literally means that they are only 13 left out there for 29 teams, which is in what way a criticism or critique or even limit on the rockets? 

 

So in conclusion, do I think Howard or Harden can be a best player on a championship team, absolutely, do I think there are about 15 of those guys in the league at this point, absolutely. Does that mean I think less of H&H, no.

 

in no particular order for example:

1. Howard

2. Harden

3. Lebron

4. Durant

5. Westbrook

6. Paul

7. Griffin

8. Curry

9. Rose (if he returns to pre-injury form fully)

10. Carmelo

11. Dirk

12. Duncan

13. Parker

14. Klove

15. George

 

Now, you could probably condense that to 10 (which I still think both H&H would be in it, but 15 feels about right for the guys able to be the best player alive for 4 out of 7 games). Now would i trade either of our guys for more than maybe 3 or possibly 4 of those guys, no, and the ones I would even think about are all cause of age not talent outside of durant and lebron.

Edited by Losthief, 16 September 2014 - 09:44 PM.

[timetodienow1234567]

No LMA?

[Losthief]

i left off davis too (big oversight as he was my 3rd of the possible 4). So....yeah thats what i get for doing it off the top of my head sry. If you want to swap LMA in for say Klove or someone else im OK with that, i like Klove more...but thats just me. LMA had a great matchup against us in the playoffs.

 

****offically substituting rose out for davis cause...well he hasn't looked fully healthy during fiba...and i forgot davis somehow....*smacks head* ****

Edited by Losthief, 16 September 2014 - 10:18 PM.

[timetodienow1234567]

I think what would help harden out would be a legit backcourt partner. Bev cannot initiate offense that well(but he might have improved). The last two champions had two or more great ball handlers

2014 - Ginobili, Parker, Mills(to a lesser extent).
2012-2013 - James, Wade

Maybe it's coincidence that they won, but I think having those extra ball handlers allows them to not let the ball get "sticky".

[thejohnnygold]

A very fair article about Mr. Harden.  It focuses on his defense and whether or not that prohibits him from being a star.  LINK

 

Here is a teaser...

 

 

So how bad was Harden on the defensive end? Harden’s opponents PER was 13.9 at the shooting guard position. That means he actually held his opponent below the league average of 15.0. The Rockets did however surrender more points to opponents shooting guards than any team in the league last year.

 

Jeremy Lin had something to do with that as well, as he was often Harden’s backup playing with Patrick Beverley when Harden rested. Lin’s opponent’s PER when at shooting guard was 17.4 and when Lin wasn’t in, it was Francisco Garcia, who came in at 15.1.

 

That should get the ball rolling...

[Willk]

A very fair article about Mr. Harden. It focuses on his defense and whether or not that prohibits him from being a star. LINK

Here is a teaser...


That should get the ball rolling...

Great find JG. I wonder where the writer got the defensive PER numbers from. I would not mind seeing other positional PER numbers.