84 replies to this topic

[bladad]

@Journeymany

incorrect......I value Lin about as much as a stale bag of chips  I disagree he is hard to replace. Lin got so bad in parts of last year I found myself cringing every time he touch the ball. Lin average 2/3 in assist to T/O ratio last year. that means more T/O than assist. his shooting percentage was also down. so basically he was turning the ball over and when he wasn't doing that he was tossing up enough bricks to build a house. it's not that hard to replace that.

Um. Don't know where you get your stats from. 294 assists 176 TO.  I'm sure you just got them mixed up.  His a/to ratio is 1.64.  Much better than the .67 you had him down for, but still lacking overall amongst his peers.

[kdo]

@Journeymany

incorrect......I value Lin about as much as a stale bag of chips  I disagree he is hard to replace. Lin got so bad in parts of last year I found myself cringing every time he touch the ball. Lin average 2/3 in assist to T/O ratio last year. that means more T/O than assist. his shooting percentage was also down. so basically he was turning the ball over and when he wasn't doing that he was tossing up enough bricks to build a house. it's not that hard to replace that.

I really don't care for Lin either way.

I don't listen to Lin fans, nor Lin haters, as both often have myopic views and unwilling to accept opposing views. I'd probably say this to any player assessment.

Stats usually take care of any bias, so I'm not sure exactly what you meant when you said:

"Lin average 2/3 in assist to T/O ratio last year. that means more T/O than assist."

A quick check pretty much debunks that. He had more assists than TOs, and his PER is greater than many point guards that are perceived as better.

Now if you said Lin is just not a good fit, and is more detrimental to the team than beneficial despite decent personal stats, then I would agree with you. Still subjective, but a more reasonable subjectivity.

But when you provide stats in the hopes to support your argument, make sure it's accurate.

[Journeymany]

@rbf

Not really in the mood for argument as this is pretty similar to the Harden hyperbole in the last thread - what you're saying here is simply hyperbole   His TS% was 57.2% which puts him certainly in the ballpark of Chris Paul (58.0%) and Lillard (56.8%), and his Assists 4.1 to 2.5 TO, while definitely bad, is quite clearly not more TO than assists. His Turnover Ratio of 14.1 was one of the worst for a PG, though other notable high TO ratio guards also include Chalmers (14.1), and someone a lot of people wanted here - Stephenson (13.8). Worth bearing in mind that someone considered mainly a passing PG - Rubio - has a TO ratio of 12.9. I doubt we would have beaten the Spurs and Mavs during that B2B when Harden was out without him.

 

So, it's not hard to replace the fictional Lin that you have in your mind. It's harder, though still very possible, to replace the actual Lin who was playing for us last season   But I'm not convinced what we have on the bench replaces him at the moment. It may do, but none of us has any proof either way at the moment....

 

@Steven

Schneiderlin will be probably be sold when Spurs match our valuation of >£20 million. Luckily we can afford to let him rot in the reserves and just fine him his wages for as long as he continues to be a spoilt little b***h who refuses to play 

[thejohnnygold]

I pretty much agree with the OP - though I would say the big question re: the Mavs is - is Dirk still able to produce at a 'star' level? If so, they are slightly stronger than us at present because their role players are more NBA-proved than ours. You can talk about how many points / how much defense they'll produce as much as you want, but the simple fact is, right now no-one has any concrete evidence how they'll pan out in the big league. For us to challenge, we would need a really good trade.

 

Right now, I see us as a 5-6 seed - basically a bit weaker than where we were last year. @rbf I know you value Lin about as much as a bag of chips, but the fact is his level of production off the bench is actually not that easy to replace when you look around the league. There are not many bench players who can generate their own offence without good offensive schemes around them (let's not get started on coaching..................). There are plenty of players around the league who have been in the league for years and will probably stay in the league, who do (and will continue to do) a significantly worse job than Lin did. I know it's hard for you to accept though   On that topic, it's a big shame we couldn't get AB back as he can definitely provide a bench spark, but I doubt he'd want to come back a 4th time or whatever it is. One further point is that Morey's eye for talent is what brought us Casspi, Hamilton and Garcia last season so better hope he's made some upgrades since then 

 

I somewhat disagree with this statement.  I think many 6th man-type players find themselves in this role for that exact reason.  Jamal Crawford, JJ Barea, Manu (I know, he shouldn't count--but he does!), Tyreke Evans (who was brought in as 6th man and ended up as a starter), Taj Gibson, and Randy Foye are all players of this ilk.  Reggie Jackson is getting there and Norris Cole....we'll see.  JR Smith was always better off the bench.  I'm sure I am forgetting a couple of guys.

 

It's about depth--good teams have that luxury.  You are right that, currently, we have a giant question mark there.  On the other hand, I also agree with RBF that Lin was not the answer and losing him doesn't hurt as much as some believe.  There is no denying he played some great games for us the past two seasons.  I think it is also hard to deny the negative aspects either.

 

The odds are this situation resolves itself in one of two ways.  One: somebody steps up and plays well--Canaan, Johnson, Smith--whoever.  Two: Morey swings a trade for a PG that moves Beverley to the bench as a solid back-up for us.  I would be surprised if Morey let's us get to the playoffs with nothing but Beverley and a bunch of scrubs (presuming none of them work out) at PG.  That would probably be the most head-scratching thing Morey has ever done....but it's not going to happen so no worries   

[thenit]

@Journeymany

incorrect......I value Lin about as much as a stale bag of chips  I disagree he is hard to replace. Lin got so bad in parts of last year I found myself cringing every time he touch the ball. Lin average 2/3 in assist to T/O ratio last year. that means more T/O than assist. his shooting percentage was also down. so basically he was turning the ball over and when he wasn't doing that he was tossing up enough bricks to build a house. it's not that hard to replace that.

 

Not to harp on Lin but every single fact that you put out is just wrong. His assist to turnover rate was 1.7 which was the same as Harden.

All his shooting numbers went up. I know you hate the guy but at least don't put out false data. I don't think we will miss him that much but he still contributed to the team.

[timetodienow1234567]

Great job on calling out misinformation. As JG said, we must hold ourselves to a higher standard than other forums.

As to contention, Kawhi will be another year older and more experienced and along with Danny will be able to corral Harden. splitter and Diaw will be able to hold Howard to inefficient numbers. I don't see Bev or Ariza getting too many wide open shots. I couldn't pick us to win against them.

The thunder have a Howard stopper in Perkins.(post defense is all he is good for). Harden will get his without Sef, but I'm not sure about us outscoring them.

The Clippers are another year older and probably better (with the exception of Paul but he shouldn't drop off too much).

I don't see us being able to beat those three without injuries and think it will be tough to beat the other 5-6 playoff teams in a series.

[YaoMan]

Great job on calling out misinformation. As JG said, we must hold ourselves to a higher standard than other forums.

As to contention, Kawhi will be another year older and more experienced and along with Danny will be able to corral Harden. splitter and Diaw will be able to hold Howard to inefficient numbers. I don't see Bev or Ariza getting too many wide open shots. I couldn't pick us to win against them.

The thunder have a Howard stopper in Perkins.(post defense is all he is good for). Harden will get his without Sef, but I'm not sure about us outscoring them.

The Clippers are another year older and probably better (with the exception of Paul but he shouldn't drop off too much).

I don't see us being able to beat those three without injuries and think it will be tough to beat the other 5-6 playoff teams in a series.

Agreed. But as I said in the other posts, if Harden can put serious effort in D and become effective and the Rockets make a trade/acquisition or Jones/KPan/Clint have surprise super seasons - they can put up a pretty good dog fight.

[Jatman20]

Vegas insider odds from a Bleacher Report out tonight......Rockets are 10:1 odds of winning the Western Conference. Fourth in the a Western Conference behind Thunder,Spurs and Clips. Vegas isn't listening to the media which makes it seem like the Rockets are going to miss the playoffs and finish last in the Southwest division. Rockets are 22:1 to win the Championship. Still early; but anything can happen.

Edited by Jatman20, 14 August 2014 - 01:11 AM.

[rockets best fan]

@bladed/kdo/Journeymany/TTDN

ok I read the stat backward 3/2. however all of you were so busy trying to correct the stat you miss the point. Lin was garbage. he wasn't getting the job done for us. now which one of you want to go on record disputing that. I'll leave the stats to JG, but I didn't need a look at any stat to know what my eyes were telling me. Lin's production can easily be replaced. it's not like we are trying to replace a player who was actually good last year. since Lin is gone I have retired the bat I used to bash him, but if you like I will pull his full stats and bash away one more time just for old time sake

[bladad]

@bladed/kdo/Journeymany/TTDN

ok I read the stat backward 3/2. however all of you were so busy trying to correct the stat you miss the point. Lin was garbage. he wasn't getting the job done for us. now which one of you want to go on record disputing that. I'll leave the stats to JG, but I didn't need a look at any stat to know what my eyes were telling me. Lin's production can easily be replaced. it's not like we are trying to replace a player who was actually good last year. since Lin is gone I have retired the bat I used to bash him, but if you like I will pull his full stats and bash away one more time just for old time sake

 

Sure thing dude. Baseless criticism and "eye test" opinions. First, you're flat out wrong. Then, you turn into an irrational hate machine. GOOD JOB

[thejohnnygold]

Sure thing dude. Baseless criticism and "eye test" opinions. First, you're flat out wrong. Then, you turn into an irrational hate machine. GOOD JOB

 

Look, obviously you guys don't agree at all.  This is going downhill fast.  You may see it as irrational hate.  The bottom line is Lin was not very good for us as a 6th man.  For those who wish to cling to the small sample of games where he excelled and use that to buoy your beliefs that he was abused and held back here and will be an all-star PG moving forward--great.  I hope so too.  I wish him well.

 

However, in his role here he was on par (after calibrating for minutes played) with the likes of JJ Barea, Jordan Farmar, Rodney Stuckey, Randy Foye, and Reggie Jackson.  Unfortunately, he is at the low end of that group.  The drop off from Lin is to guys like Nate Wolters, Norris Cole, Brian Roberts, Dennis Schroder, etc.  That is not something you look at and think, "man, how are we going to replace that guy?"  

 

And that's the point.  We can find production similar to Lin's in the back up PG position.  Worried about who initiates the offense?  I'm not.  We can play inside out through D-Mo or T-Jones.  We can let Isaiah Canaan/Ish Smith attack the paint and surround them with sharpshooters.  We don't need to run teams out of the gym with our second unit (although I think we will more often than not).  We just need to maintain and let the starters rest.  Besides, I have a hunch Beverley is going to be involved with the second unit and Troy Daniels will spend time spacing the floor for Harden.

 

We're covered.  Lin doesn't matter.  He has a chance to redeem himself (and his fans) in LA.  They've got some pieces.  Jordan Hill can easily replicate Tyson Chandler's role from NYC (and is due to break out...if it is ever going to happen now is the time).  Julius Randle should give them lots of hustle and athleticism on the wing.  Kobe will be on the bench with Nash by Christmas.  Then there is Nick Young, Boozer (another complimentary piece for Lin--he will bail him out all season long), Ed Davis, Wesley Johnson, Ryan Kelly....there are lots of players to like.

 

They will wind up scrappy, lovable underdogs and become media darlings.  Take that to the bank.

[rocketrick]

@bladed/kdo/Journeymany/TTDN
ok I read the stat backward 3/2. however all of you were so busy trying to correct the stat you miss the point. Lin was garbage. he wasn't getting the job done for us. now which one of you want to go on record disputing that. I'll leave the stats to JG, but I didn't need a look at any stat to know what my eyes were telling me. Lin's production can easily be replaced. it's not like we are trying to replace a player who was actually good last year. since Lin is gone I have retired the bat I used to bash him, but if you like I will pull his full stats and bash away one more time just for old time sake

I'm with you on the Lin bat 100%.

Let's just put it away once and for all.

I am quite excited about all the possibilities with numerous players likely to have their opportunity to step forward.

Who will it be?

[Journeymany]

I really, really can't be bothered to talk about Lin any more because he wasn't and isn't the solution for this team, but seriously... if you think he was worse than JJ Barea, that is irrational hate. You need to think about that because there's really no point in anyone being here for actual BBall talk if people are going to simply ignore actual facts. It's exactly the same as people saying Harden is a waste of space and should be traded. It's just plain wrong and makes everyone annoyed.
 

 

             GP MPG FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% RPG APG BLKPG STLPG PFPG TOPG PPG

2013-14 79 18.6    3.2-8.3    .387    0.9-2.9  .316    1.0-1.3   .790 1.9     3.8   0.0           0.3      1.6      1.6    8.4

 

Sure wish we'd had that coming off the bench last season. /facepalm

Edited by Journeymany, 14 August 2014 - 03:20 PM.

[bladad]

deleted.

Edited by bladad, 14 August 2014 - 04:18 PM.

[bladad]

Look, obviously you guys don't agree at all.  This is going downhill fast.  You may see it as irrational hate.  The bottom line is Lin was not very good for us as a 6th man.  For those who wish to cling to the small sample of games where he excelled and use that to buoy your beliefs that he was abused and held back here and will be an all-star PG moving forward--great.  I hope so too.  I wish him well.

 

@JG:

Honestly my post has less to deal with Lin and more to do with RBF's cavalier attitude throwing around garbage as facts. Lin didn't fit the role the team had put him in. I will most definitely agree with that.  I'm just surprised you aren't jumping down his throat about making up statistics, ignoring relevant statistics, then making awful blanket statements. He freaking switched the numerator and the denominator for god's sake....

[rockets best fan]

@bladad

oh I see. .....................we still got a little Lin love going on here. WOW......hate machine? cavalier attitude? I will take the high road here. you appear to want to discuss something other than basketball. I thought we had gotten rid of the Lin fans, but looks like your still lurking. I made a mistake in quoting a stat and you are bent out of shape over it? and on top of all that you still missed the point...............why so serious....oh that's right I was attacking golden boy  dude get a life

[txtdo1411]

So back to relevant players that are actually on the team...JG, I really like the idea of Daniels spacing the floor some with Harden. Definitely not a rotation we are going to give an abundance of minutes, but a look we can give 10 mins a game or so. On offense that combo will be deadly. Harden slashing to the rim with Troy just waiting to knock down the 3. There might be some defensive concerns, but the offensive potential is there. I also like the idea of Bev contributing to the second unit as well. He is a level headed PG that takes care of the ball, and makes smart decisions. Definitely something the 2nd unit will need with all the new and young faces. Although I believe Canaan will step it up this year, and become a big bench player for us. I really like players that can get to the rim, and shoot lights out from beyond the 3 point line. Canaan is one of those players, and I am excited to see how he has progressed this next season. 

[Mario Peña]

@JG:
Honestly my post has less to deal with Lin and more to do with RBF's cavalier attitude throwing around garbage as facts. Lin didn't fit the role the team had put him in. I will most definitely agree with that. I'm just surprised you aren't jumping down his throat about making up statistics, ignoring relevant statistics, then making awful blanket statements. He freaking switched the numerator and the denominator for god's sake....

It's not for you decide when we moderate or to comment on moderation. Please refrain from telling moderators when you believe they should "jump down" someone's "throat" or whatever that means which seems a bit insulting since that isn't what moderators do.

I advise anyone here not continuing with relevant discussion and debate to stop posting in this topic. Thank you to all of you in advance as I am sure you will all do the right thing.

[thejohnnygold]

I really, really can't be bothered to talk about Lin any more because he wasn't and isn't the solution for this team, but seriously... if you think he was worse than JJ Barea, that is irrational hate. You need to think about that because there's really no point in anyone being here for actual BBall talk if people are going to simply ignore actual facts. It's exactly the same as people saying Harden is a waste of space and should be traded. It's just plain wrong and makes everyone annoyed.
 

 

             GP MPG FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% RPG APG BLKPG STLPG PFPG TOPG PPG

2013-14 79 18.6    3.2-8.3    .387    0.9-2.9  .316    1.0-1.3   .790 1.9     3.8   0.0           0.3      1.6      1.6    8.4

 

Sure wish we'd had that coming off the bench last season. /facepalm

 

Not what I said at all--so glad I put the effort into actually looking up the stats for every single player I mentioned, adjusting them to allow for minutes played, and then making the comparison.  Your stats are not adjusted.  Lin played roughly 50% more than Barea as a reserve (in mpg), but let's not mention that when trying to make our point.  Further, all I was saying--which was pretty clear--is that the production, not the player, was on par with those players and, like I said before, on the low end of them.  Don't take my word for it--do your own math.

 

Irrational hate?  Are you being serious?  Did you read anything else in that post?  You know, all the good stuff I said about Lin and the well-wishing?  If anything is irrational here it is me having to answer for someone who is clearly not reading with much comprehension.

 

I will presume you just missed some crucial part of my post where I was explicitly clear about what I was saying and that is why you felt compelled to respond in such a manner.

 

 

@JG:

Honestly my post has less to deal with Lin and more to do with RBF's cavalier attitude throwing around garbage as facts. Lin didn't fit the role the team had put him in. I will most definitely agree with that.  I'm just surprised you aren't jumping down his throat about making up statistics, ignoring relevant statistics, then making awful blanket statements. He freaking switched the numerator and the denominator for god's sake....

 

Well, if you look further back I edited some of your posts that were below standard and changed them to allow for the fact that he obviously made a mistake.  RBF has a long history here and he is not one to make up stats.  He acknowledged as much later on.  What's the big deal?  You guys think I am biased in the way I police posts--I get that.  There is a difference between making stuff up and making a mistake.  That's it.  I suppose I should start banning people for typos as well?    Perhaps no one noticed when I let one of those who I am so very biased against destroy turnover ratio numbers in this very thread.  Does anyone think 14.1 and 12.9 are actual turnover ratios?  Don't believe me?  Check out post #23 above.  Maybe I should have gone ahead and issued the deserved ban for calling people names and insulting their intelligence (you know who you are).  Heck, it was directly implied that I lack even half a brain in a different thread quite recently--let that one slide too.

 

So, when asking why I let something slide ask yourself this, "Do I want the mods to act with full force for every little thing?"  If so, this place is going to become a ghost town real fast.

 

[thejohnnygold]

So back to relevant players that are actually on the team...JG, I really like the idea of Daniels spacing the floor some with Harden. Definitely not a rotation we are going to give an abundance of minutes, but a look we can give 10 mins a game or so. On offense that combo will be deadly. Harden slashing to the rim with Troy just waiting to knock down the 3. There might be some defensive concerns, but the offensive potential is there. I also like the idea of Bev contributing to the second unit as well. He is a level headed PG that takes care of the ball, and makes smart decisions. Definitely something the 2nd unit will need with all the new and young faces. Although I believe Canaan will step it up this year, and become a big bench player for us. I really like players that can get to the rim, and shoot lights out from beyond the 3 point line. Canaan is one of those players, and I am excited to see how he has progressed this next season. 

 

So, back to the thread.  I agree with you.  I think McHale will be tinkering with line-ups to see what works and doesn't (obviously) and that Daniels is going to see time with lots of different units.  That shooting is just too good to not find a way to use it.  Canaan is also going to get plenty of chances to prove he belongs and I think he will prove he does.  Defensively, he is going to get burned and probably more often than not--that is partly due to his size and more about his inexperience--he'll figure it out.

 

I'm very curious to see what Ish brings to the table for us.  I am also curious to see if Ariza is strictly a spot up guy for us or if they have him start driving the ball to the hoop more--I think they will and I think it will be good.  By season's end I think people will see Ariza as the steal of this year's free agency much like Millsap was for Atlanta last year.