103 replies to this topic

[bob schmidt]

It's a little late in the season to try to change a player's game. As he is, Harden is a top talent in the league. The last thing that I want to see is him trying to do things differently to any extent. We can't afford an untimely injury, or early foul trouble by demanding a different style of play from our best player. The one thing that I hope to see is a little more rest during the game so that Harden has something left in the tank at the end of the game.

 

I would love to see early aggression offensively by everyone, but only to a degree with Harden. Since the Blazers have so little on the bench, we need to tire their starters as quickly as possible and hopefully, hang some fouls on them. I pray that the referees will call a fair game... If they aren't, one of the coaches needs to throw a temper tantrum for a technical to underline unfair foul calls. Surely, one of our assistants can assume this role if needed. Bottom line, I expect to see a good game tonight with a favorable outcome.

[Steven]

Come on JG, you know you are not to ruin a good narrative with facts and data. Next the name calling will begin.

[uojoe82]

Lin should be given the reigns or at least an opportunity when its obvious that Harden is struggling. Late last game Lin was the only one getting into the lane for easy shots (some of which he missed) but they were better shots than Hardens flurry of step back 3's.

 

I'm fine with criticizing a star player. No player is perfect. Even the ones closest to perfection have been criticized (LBJ couldn't hit the big shot). No player is exempt and everyone has an opinion. Has no one ever listened to sports radio?

 

Harden gets a lot of well deserved praise and he rightfully earns his criticism. Alls fair in love and basketball.

[Willk]

You just slandered his character and yet you expect me and others on this forum to believe that you are supposedly "a fan of Harden"

Dude..........

rocketrick - I do not know why fans of one certain player think that by bashing every other player makes their favorite player look better.

[Willk]

Frankly guys I get annoyed how you all talk about holding your teams stars accountable. Accountable? Seriously, we are fans and that is all we are. If there is an accountability equation of an NBA player and you think you are a part of it then it is completely in your imagination. I'm with rocketrick, I just don't understand some of you.

cannot agree more

[Willk]

We've all seen the videos.  We've all watched the games.  Apparently I'm the only one who thinks he is protecting himself from fouls and that is more important than forcing a pass in the 2nd quarter.  (I'm not saying he is free of guilt--in fact, I was the first to call him out on his ball-watching ways.  Certainly he could be better, but the Rockets as a team are better with him and anyone who argues that...well, good luck.)

 

The numbers are there:

 

He sports the 2nd best Net Rating of +13 second only to T. Jones' +14.  That would be an Ortg of 120 and a Drtg of 107....that Drtg is better than Lin, Beverley, and Parsons.  Per Basketball-reference.com

 

Go to mysynergysports. (many have shunned these stats, but they are endorsed by the NBA, Bill Simmons, and Zach Lowe so think what you like.  There you will see that Harden is a better defender than Lin by percentages and by volume.  Is he terrible in ISO situations?  You betcha!  However, that comprises 9% of his defense and he is above average (top third even) at everything else.

 

(on a side note, PBev is ranked #7 at ISO defense....not that anyone who sees differently would believe it) 

 

Meanwhile he is an elite offensive weapon--which is why it is crucial he remains on the court as much as possible.  I have read all of the small sample arguments for Lin running the show.  Last season, I thought that had some merit......I've seen enough to know better now.

 

This is about Harden's defense though.  Check out 82games.com.  Harden sports the best Simple Rating (Covington doesn't count), Net Production, and just about everything else.  Harden's Opponent Production is all below league average.  The offense drops off by 7.9 points when Harden is off the court; however, the defense only shows a +.6 improvement.  That is a net of +7.3 for Harden.

 

So lament his laziness, his lack of running, his futile reaching and swiping, his ball-watching, and general defensive malaise.  I will enjoy watching the Rockets play, and win, this series against Portland.  The numbers--all of the numbers--say we're better with him than without him and that his defense, while hard to watch, is effective enough to outscore most everyone else on the team regardless of what metric you use.

JG - I cannot disagree with anything written here. I think Harden just knows how to pace himself. He is not going to burn himself out on the defensive end in the 1st quarter of a game. Harden picks up his effort as the game goes on. He is still one of the 7 best players warts and all.

[thejohnnygold]

JG - I cannot disagree with anything written here. I think Harden just knows how to pace himself. He is not going to burn himself out on the defensive end in the 1st quarter of a game. Harden picks up his effort as the game goes on. He is still one of the 7 best players warts and all.

 

I agree.  I think there is a lot more to this than simply "he doesn't try", "is too good for it", "is a prima donna", or whatever other accusation is thrown at him.  I've been saying it for the past two seasons--I think he is being instructed, in one capacity or another, to save himself physically and foul-wise on defense.  I haven't said so in a long time because I catch lots of incredulous replies when I do.

[Baller93]

I would say that he reminds me of Nash on the defensive except that Nash tries.  Nash will take charges.  Nash will TRY.  He just doesn't have the strength or length or athleticism that others have.  Toss Steph Curry in that same boat, by the way.  With that being said, even though Nash is my favorite player, he's still a crap defender.  He is a very minus defender.  But Harden is something else.  He's one of those rare MINUS/MINUS defender.  He has the tools, the size, the strength, but the athleticism yet his greatest move appears to be swiping at the ball whenever someone blows by him.  What he appears to be lacking is not physical but something mental.  Some sort of deep rooted laziness that he doesn't have to try when on defense.  He knows McHale is too chickenshit to bench him, so he has no impetus.  He has the tools, just not the willpower and that's a shame, because EVERYBODY, whether they played sports or not, hate seeing anybody with the gifts he was given, being wasted due to plain laziness or willingness.

 

Soon as the national media, or fans that love him no matter what, stops referring to him as a superstar, maybe that will bring him down to earth and actually give more thought to other things besides shooting/passing.  Because his path is looking like a Carmelo lite career arc, and all he's going to be remembered for is a talented offensive maestro who couldn't defend a cadaver.

[Steven]

I would say that he reminds me of Nash on the defensive except that Nash tries. Nash will take charges. Nash will TRY. He just doesn't have the strength or length or athleticism that others have. Toss Steph Curry in that same boat, by the way. With that being said, even though Nash is my favorite player, he's still a crap defender. He is a very minus defender. But Harden is something else. He's one of those rare MINUS/MINUS defender. He has the tools, the size, the strength, but the athleticism yet his greatest move appears to be swiping at the ball whenever someone blows by him. What he appears to be lacking is not physical but something mental. Some sort of deep rooted laziness that he doesn't have to try when on defense. He knows McHale is too chickenshit to bench him, so he has no impetus. He has the tools, just not the willpower and that's a shame, because EVERYBODY, whether they played sports or not, hate seeing anybody with the gifts he was given, being wasted due to plain laziness or willingness.

Soon as the national media, or fans that love him no matter what, stops referring to him as a superstar, maybe that will bring him down to earth and actually give more thought to other things besides shooting/passing. Because his path is looking like a Carmelo lite career arc, and all he's going to be remembered for is a talented offensive maestro who couldn't defend a cadaver.

How many Finals have Melo gone too? And did you not read JG stats on Harden's defense?

[Baller93]

Too many stats, man.  If you start up quoting stats, then you already lost your point.  I know analytics is a popular buzzword for some, but if your eyes and brain can't figure out something which you need stats for, then you shouldn't watch basketball, IMO.

[Steven]

Too many stats, man. If you start up quoting stats, then you already lost your point. I know analytics is a popular buzzword for some, but if your eyes and brain can't figure out something which you need stats for, then you shouldn't watch basketball, IMO.

When you have facts you use them, when you don't you ignore the other persons stats and go with emotion. I prefer rational thinking over emotional.

[thejohnnygold]

Too many stats, man.  If you start up quoting stats, then you already lost your point.  I know analytics is a popular buzzword for some, but if your eyes and brain can't figure out something which you need stats for, then you shouldn't watch basketball, IMO.

 

4 out of 5 people disagree with this. 

 

Look, I appreciate your opinion and passion.  The reason I bother looking at all those stats is to find an answer to what my eyes see.

 

Why does Harden play the way he does?  Unlike you, I don't believe any of the reasons/validations you put forth above.  We have zero knowledge of the situation and to put forth such conjecture is merely opening a window into yourself--not the actual situation.

 

After seeing the stats from multiple sources calculated in a variety of ways I have been led to believe something else is at play here.  I'm not saying Harden is playing great defense and I'm not some nut who thinks he is infallible.  I think this has Morey's thumbprint all over it.

 

I'm sorry you feel I am not worthy of watching basketball since I believe in using stats.  It surprises me you frequent our site and not one of the other ones as this one seems to be most prone to such analysis.  Believe it or not, it is possible to be emotional, passionate, rational, and objective about something--albeit rarely all at once. 

 

Ultimately, it was not James Harden's defense--good or bad--that cost us the first two games of this series against Portland.  If we are looking for a scapegoat I think Kevin McHale is currently first in line.

[Mario Peña]

I agree.  I think there is a lot more to this than simply "he doesn't try", "is too good for it", "is a prima donna", or whatever other accusation is thrown at him.  I've been saying it for the past two seasons--I think he is being instructed, in one capacity or another, to save himself physically and foul-wise on defense.  I haven't said so in a long time because I catch lots of incredulous replies when I do.

 

I also agree that he specifically has been instructed to play defense the way he plays it now and the side effects have been that he has odd body language that exacerbates the poor perceptions and it has eroded some of his defensive skills or reinforced bad habits. The directive doesn't exist in a vacuum as some fans like to judge it but rather it would obviously rather be part of a larger strategy to maximize Harden. Just my opinion.

[timetodienow1234567]

That makes sense. Tell your star player not to play defense. It could be the case but when I see guys like Lebron/Kobe/Wade/Jordan playing defense in the playoffs I have to think that that couldn't be the case. Unless Harden is out of shape(it doesn't look like it), then Morey should be held accountable for telling his star player not to try hard on defense.

[thejohnnygold]

That makes sense. Tell your star player not to play defense. It could be the case but when I see guys like Lebron/Kobe/Wade/Jordan playing defense in the playoffs I have to think that that couldn't be the case. Unless Harden is out of shape(it doesn't look like it), then Morey should be held accountable for telling his star player not to try hard on defense.

 

I know...I know.....but all of this is contingent on the notion that Harden DOES struggle to play solid D without fouling.  Hence, you either have him D-up, only play 20-25 minutes, and his guy will still score some or you put elite rim protectors behind him, let him play matador defense and rely on them to limit the damage while Harden tears up the opposing defense for a net positive result.

 

It only works when Harden does his part on offense--and in these past two games it would have....even with Aldridge turning into a super-villain named, "Bullseye".

 

If our 3 pt. shooting can rise above "abysmal" level we can still win this series.

[QNoir]

Right. Somebody tells him to linger in crowded lanes in hopes of grabbing a rebound, leaving his assignment open on the 3-point line for the kickout. Somebody tells him to jog down the court slowly behind his assignment, so as not to overexert himself. Somebody tells him to completely lose Matthews with 50 seconds left. Somebody tells him to step aside and let opposing players breeze past hm. "You can just swipe at him from behind," is what he was told.

[thejohnnygold]

Right. Somebody tells him to linger in crowded lanes in hopes of grabbing a rebound, leaving his assignment open on the 3-point line for the kickout. Somebody tells him to jog down the court slowly behind his assignment, so as not to overexert himself. Somebody tells him to completely lose Matthews with 50 seconds left. Somebody tells him to step aside and let opposing players breeze past hm. "You can just swipe at him from behind," is what he was told.

 

Because the notion that he is an elitist who believes he is too good for defense makes so much sense.  People are free to believe what they want.  I am just sharing my belief as a counterpoint to the tsunami of anti-harden posts.  Also, Matthews was not his man on that play if memory serves....

[timetodienow1234567]

Harden is a top ten player. But, I know I find it frustrating to watch Lebron dominate and then the next game see Harden being abysmal at both ends of the court. I think I just need to keep it in perspective that Harden is not at that level. But it's hard to watch your team lose and not blame the franchise player.

[QNoir]

Because the notion that he is an elitist who believes he is too good for defense makes so much sense.  People are free to believe what they want.  I am just sharing my belief as a counterpoint to the tsunami of anti-harden posts.  Also, Matthews was not his man on that play if memory serves....

 

It's not a matter of being an elitist. It's how he plays. I would chalk it to three things.

 

1. He's a stats junkie (which relates somewhat to immaturity and selfishness). He wants that rebound. He wants that steal. He wants to be the first down the court on the offensive end. He relishes in the opportunity to make his "I'm a bad mofo" stink face. See game 1.

 

2. He's praised for making steals and scoring on fast breaks. Nobody has rewarded him for defensive contribution. He just isn't motivated, and it feeds into his philosophy. It's not a decision made on a single play; it's how he sees the game as a whole playing out in his team's favor. It's just that some philosophies are simply ... false.

 

2. He's not a great multitasker. He should be given one focus: his assignment. Don't tell Harden to defend the lanes and help, because he will NEVER return to his original assignment. He sees the ball, and he sees red. He easily loses focus. How often is there an offensive rebound which turns into an outside shot because Harden sees a ball go up and thinks his job is done?

 

Each of these relate to the others. And Matthews was definitely his guy. We know Bev was on Lillard. Who else would we expect to get down the court quickly enough to guard him? Asik and Howard? (actually, Dwight was downcourt pretty early, but has his hands full already without thinking about Matthews). Parsons was in front of Batum where he was supposed to be. Harden just had no sense of urgency after his big play. I mean, what else was he supposed to be doing?

Edited by QNoir, 24 April 2014 - 08:48 PM.

[Freebird]

See, he hasn't always been this bad defensively.  His college stats were very good (lesser talent, I know), and his scouting report was above average:

 

http://sports.yahoo....X5q9V5fITHVO5B4

 

In fact, he defense was praised in OKC his rookie year.  What changed?

 

I think it's because the offensive player gets the bulk of the calls now.  For a defensive call, you have to meet a specific set of criteria - and it's subjective to the current ref.  It's a lot to consider.

 

However, he LOOKS like he doesn't try, and that's more troublesome.  As has been said, you lead by example, and that is a visual cue.  I think all he needs to do is stop ball watching, and stick to his man some more.  Then the stats will match the eyes.