155 replies to this topic

[Mason Khamvilay]

Which players in Minny didn't like McHale? Have you got any proof of this?

[datruth]

What's your proof that all the players loved him. That argument goes both ways. I know K-love was drafted by McHale, but there was a lot of turnover while McHale was in charge.  Not trying to bash McHale, but I think we must understand that as a gm and a coach Mchale struggled. That doesn't make him a good or bad guy.  My point is I'm not posting things saying every one loved him in Minnesota, because McHale is old school player and old school coach. The old school style doesn't always work in the world that we live in today.  There is no right or wrong in none of the comments.

[Mason Khamvilay]

""We're all evaluated on wins and losses, that's how it should be," Morey said. "But when you look at a coaching record, you've got to look deeper. You've got to look at when Kevin took over for those franchises, they did better with him than the person he took over for"

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"If there's some kind of way that he leaves the Timberwolves," Jefferson said in April, "that's when I'll be very, very upset."

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Kevin Love tweeted "Today is a sad day ... Kevin McHale will NOT be back as head coach this season."

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“Chandler and James (Harden) really said it,” Sampson said. “I didn’t have to say anything. They want to play for Kevin. Patrick said it, too. Nothing formal. I heard them talking amongst each other. It might not have been for coaches’ ears. They were just talking. You know it’s on their minds.”

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Kevin Love is usually a reserved guy but he even took it as far as to trash his organization and GM on twitter for not bringing McHale back. And even though I can't find it, I have read quotes from both Kevin Love and Parsons saying they love playing for McHale. I think I've found enough quotes though. The burden of proof now falls on you. 

[datruth]

look 2016 if you want to believe that everyone loves McHale as a coach. Please go right ahead. My point is that McHale is becoming a better coach game by game,but I'm not saying that everyone loved him as a coach in Minnesota. I'm not saying that everyone loves him here in Houston. So why would I say everyone in Minnesota loved him and he struggled. The fact is that we are winning and he deserves his credit. So let's enjoy that. Again, there is no right or wrong comment here.

[Mason Khamvilay]

I'm having a hard time understanding you. You said players in Minny didn't love McHale so I asked you for proof, you said I should find proof too so I did and now it's your turn. Do you have proof or not? 

[phaketrash]

I would imagine that many players would like McHale. He seems funny and gives players freedom. If the point was that players liking him = he helps create a more friendly work environment, then yes, I agree. If the point was that players liking him = he is a better coach (outside of the aforementioned factor), then I don't see it lol. 

 

Also to note, those quotes aren't the best sources of evidence. First, sample size issue. Handful of players liking a coach is not great proof -- every other person could have disliked him, or felt apathetic about him. Unless the number of players that openly like him is large, it isn't very strong evidence.

 

Second, selection bias. Players are much more willing to say something good about a coach than say something bad. Players badmouthing coaches is looked down upon in the league; not saying it doesn't happen, but it is certainly less acceptable than complimenting them. You'd also get silence from apathetic players. So this creates a situation where those who are silent could either be apathetic or dislike him, which creates two possibilities > the one that they too also liked McHale. Very possible that out of 15 players, 3 loved McHale and 12 disliked him, or were ambivalent about him (doubt they HATED him or else you'd also get a few that would speak out regardless of how it looked -- kind of the opposite end of the same selection bias issue of those loving him speaking out).

[datruth]

My point is that not everyone loves McHale that is my point. I have a hard time understanding someone who wants to speak for everyone. Just because you find a few post saying we love McHale doesn't account for everyone. My main point is as a coach, not as a person. It's not personal. I love the guy as a father, player, but not as a coach. So you can say what you want. that's my view.

[Mason Khamvilay]

I understand that a few quotes do not account for everyone, but I feel that the burden of proof should not fall on me alone. If you don't have any proof then just say you don't have any. If I'm the only one who actually tried to find some that's okay, I'm used to it. 

[datruth]

First he was fired in Minnesota as the coach and gm. I'm confused why I need proof that everyone was not on the McHale bandwagon. Again, he is getting better and I think we should promote that. Instead of saying everyone loved him on a team he is no longer a part.

[Mason Khamvilay]

I was just wondering why you think players hated him. Just because a GM fires a coach doesn't mean the players hated him, but if that's your reason then I guess there's nothing more to discuss. 

[Mario Peña]

I am just so glad that McHale will be here next year and then probably sign for another 3 at least, hopefully. It will be great seeing Coach McHale down there on the bench running this team for many years.

[phaketrash]

I was just wondering why you think players hated him. Just because a GM fires a coach doesn't mean the players hated him, but if that's your reason then I guess there's nothing more to discuss. 

 

And there in lies the crux of the problem. The burden of proof changes depending on what is being posited. If the statement is that 'everyone' hated McHale, burden falls on proving that everyone disliked him (or a majority). If the statement is that everyone loved McHale, and someone says, "No, not everyone loved McHale."...well that is different. I am sure you can see the huge difference between those two comments, even setting aside the hyperbole. In the latter, the burden falls on the person who says everyone loved McHale as the other person is only disagreeing w/ that fact (i.e., everyone could have been apathetic about McHale). What is interesting about this point is that datruth actually said BOTH hahaha:

 

"A lot of players and fans in Minnesota did not like McHale. So I disagree that everyone loved him."

 

But taken overall, I guess it is true that the burden shifts to datruth, though only because the first half of his statement damned him (logically speaking) lol. I don't have a horse in this race as I don't have an opinion either way on it. I have no idea how all the players or even what most of the players felt about McHale, nor do I really care. I just enjoy making observations

 

 

[Drew in Abilene]

Here's a telling excerpt from a recent article:

 

"Whatever he lacked as an obsessive tactician in the mold of Tom Thibodeau, McHale was known as a fun coach to play for. Before he left Minnesota in 2009, budding star Kevin Love remarked, "Everybody likes him and would love to play for him again."

 

See, McHale wasn't a system coach brought in to lead a specific team. He was a hoops generalist hired to coach a specific process."

 

Morey didn't want an x's and o's guy, he wanted a coach that would inspire the players to have fun. The system Morey was drafting/trading/building towards didn't require a skilled tactician as much as someone who could get the players to legitimately enjoy playing a super-fast pace. Another quote from the piece that explains:

 

"It's a blast," says Parsons. A self-described 6-foot-10 forward "with a ratchet" (i.e., 3-point jumper), McHale gives Parsons freedom to become a one-man fast break the moment he grabs the defensive rebound. "It's so much freedom, so much space, so much open floor."

 

Carlos Delfino, who played for noted control freaks Larry Brown and Scott Skiles early in his NBA career, wistfully remembers an Italian League team he played for in 2004 as the last time he had so much freedom. New Rocket James Anderson calls the style "unreal."

 

But playing that way requires real work and attention to detail.

 

"[NBA players] all want to run until they have to run. ... Then they all want to walk," Kevin McHale jokes.

 

Basically, I think a lot of the frustration with McHale is that he's not a tactician of the caliber of some other coaches, which is a fair point. But that's not what he was asked to be! We have a good idea of what his task was this year: make it fun, make it fast, make it work.

Right now, I'd say he's doing a pretty dang good job of that!

[Mason Khamvilay]

^There's the Kevin Love quote I was trying to find. 

[datruth]

I never said anyone hated Mchale. I said, don't say everyone loved him as a coach in Minnesota. Why are you putting words in my mouth. I 'm starting to like McHale, but I don't like people that feel like they should speak for everyone. Not everyone agrees with McHale and what McHale does.  If everyone loved McHale as a coach in Minnesota he would still be there. That's your proof 2016.

[phaketrash]

I think Drew's comment about people expecting McHale to be a tactician of x caliber to be considered a "good" coach is what is drawing the ire of many fans. It is that cognitive dissonance that people have -- "how could he be a good coach when he is SO BAD at tactics or rotations or x's and o's kind of stuff." Those are skills most people think of when they think of a good coach, and McHale doesn't have that, which makes some people instinctively react in a negative way to the notion that he is "good." I mean, there is that other quote from when McHale coached the TWolves:

 

 

"It was a learning experience," said Carter, who will see McHale and the Timberwolves on Wednesday at the Pepsi Center. "He didn't really know all the X's and O's, but he had a good assistant coaching staff that was helping him out with a lot of plays. He kind of let us run whatever we wanted.

"He was trying to draw plays, and it was like a little Etch and Sketch. Like a kid just messing around. . . . He just gave the clipboard to the assistant coaches sometimes."

McHale's assistants were Wittman, Sidney Lowe, Jerry Sichting and Don Zierden. Carter said they mostly ran practice.

"Practice, it was kind of funny," Carter said. "(McHale) didn't warm us up and just let us get to playing five-on-five. He'd just sit on the sideline . . . and the other coaches would be coaching."

Asked how the Timberwolves managed a decent record with a novice coach, Carter said, "All the guys just stuck together. We didn't want to get embarrassed."

 

Okay, before people slam me for having this all in the worship at McHale thread, let me get to my conclusion BUT, while McHale is probably not a very good x's and o's coach, he IS what the current Rockets team needs, probably. This is based a bit off of assumptions, but many players and commentators have said how much they enjoy being around McHale, and how well he sets the mood/environment. There is something to be said about developing a good work environment. I am sure it works because some of the assistant coaches are being the hard asses -- just how many organizational restructurings tend to work (successful ones at least). 

So I think the cognitive dissonance many fans have had w/ the notion that McHale is a "good" coach could be assuaged if it were simply stated that McHale is a good coach for our Rockets team for the foreseeable future.

 

Finally, I would like to point out that one could also argue that what makes a good coach is not simply the x's and o's ability, but everything they bring to the table. I accept that, and I think that is also a fair argument to make. Just saying, a lot of people's natural inclination is to not really account for that, since it is a lot less perceptible and certainly harder to gauge.

[phaketrash]

I never said anyone hated Mchale. I said, don't say everyone loved him as a coach in Minnesota. Why are you putting words in my mouth. I 'm starting to like McHale, but I don't like people that feel like they should speak for everyone. Not everyone agrees with McHale and what McHale does.  If everyone loved McHale as a coach in Minnesota he would still be there. That's your proof 2016.

 

I want to absolutely point out that I was not putting words in your mouth. You made this exact statement at the bottom of the earlier page:

 

"A lot of players and fans in Minnesota did not like McHale. So I disagree that everyone loved him."  

 

I did not say you thought anyone hated McHale, and while you did also disagree that everyone loved him, you did state right before that that a lot of players did not like McHale. My first few sentences were hypotheticals -- I did not attribute them to you; they were merely demonstrative. I can see that the statement "What is interesting about this point is that datruth actually said BOTH hahaha..." might be a tad misleading, but I thought directly quoting what you said right after that would have alleviated any confusion. I apologize if that was not the case.

[Mason Khamvilay]

My mistake for paraphrasing with the word hate. 

[datruth]

Yes there was a lot tension when McHale left Minnesota, but that is in the past. My focus is on  the present. McHale is getting better and this team seems to be getting.  My point again is don't say everybody loved him, because he only won 41 percent of his games in Minnesota, had a lot of turnover with players, coaches and I'm sure that everyone was not happy with that. So to speak for everyone I think is a big mistake.  McHale is 9 games over 500 and people still post comments saying he is no good. Why would we think he was loved by everyone in Minnesota. The focus should be on the progress right now and not in the past.

[Mason Khamvilay]

Yes there was a lot tension when McHale left Minnesota, but that is in the past. My focus is on  the present. McHale is getting better and this team seems to be getting.  My point again is don't say everybody loved him, because he only won 41 percent of his games in Minnesota, had a lot of turnover with players, coaches and I'm sure that everyone was not happy with that. So to speak for everyone I think is a big mistake.  McHale is 9 games over 500 and people still post comments saying he is no good. Why would we think he was loved by everyone in Minnesota. The focus should be on the progress right now and not in the past.

 

1. You say we should focus on the present, but you're the one bringing up his win percentage in Minny.

 

2. McHale won 61% of his games in Minny, not 41%. Don't forget that Flip Saunders was coaching the first half of the season, and I hardly think it's fair to blame McHale for the losses Saunders accrued. The fact McHale did well in Minny is a big reason why Morey hired him.

 

Here's a quote by Morey I'll post again since it seems like you missed it (I try to avoid repeating myself but I'll make an exception here):

 

"We're all evaluated on wins and losses, that's how it should be," Morey said. "But when you look at a coaching record, you've got to look deeper. You've got to look at when Kevin took over for those franchises, they did better with him than the person he took over for"

 

And after McHale was Dwane Casey who only won 43% of his games as coach of Minny. 

 

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