82 replies to this topic

[Mario Peña]

I also agree Harden when he peaks will be far greater than Love and Rose.

[Jason]

I also agree Harden when he peaks will be far greater than Love and Rose.

Agreed

[rockets best fan]

no matter how you rate his talent the real question is how many other players would you trade harden straight up for..........(IMO) only durrant and lebron sit in that catagory. melo might get honorable mention, but that's about it

[Jason]

no matter how you rate his talent the real question is how many other players would you trade harden straight up for..........(IMO) only durrant and lebron sit in that catagory. melo might get honorable mention, but that's about it

Durant and Lebron, yes. Melo, absolutely not.

[phaketrash]

Haha I still remember at the beginning of the season, people were saying Harden as a #1 option could never be a contender. Oh how far he has come in such little time! 

[Mason Khamvilay]

Haha I still remember at the beginning of the season, people were saying Harden as a #1 option could never be a contender. Oh how far he has come in such little time! 

Yeah, I was suprised how many people said they can't see him being the #1 option and that he's more of a 6th man caliber guy. I knew he was this good, all he needed was the chance to prove it. And as he gets more accustomed to being the primary focus of defenses he's going to get so much better.

[Steven]

I knew he could be the number one when his points was around 38 per 40 minutes, whenever Durant wasn't on the court last year.

[Mason Khamvilay]

^{Just watching Harden in OKC I could tell he was a boss, but the advanced statistics supported it too. His PER was 21.1 last season and his TS% was an insane .660 and he had a +14 rating on offense}

[Mason Khamvilay]

Something I found pretty interesting though is that Harden's production last season was at it's best when he played to pg position. But maybe that's just because the trigger happy Westbrook was on the bench lol

[Rahat Huq]

Here's how it breaks down for me:

 

1. Lebron 

--huge gap--

--huge gap--

2. Durant

3. Paul - I honestly feel like Paul might actually be better than Durant.  But I'll put him at 3.  But look at their teams.  Paul has a talented supporting cast, yes, but he creates a lot of those guys.  I feel if you gave Paul a team similar to Durant's, he'd have them right where Durant has his.  

--gap--

4/5. Kobe/Harden - I can't decide here.  Kobe's obviously having one of the best years of his career, shooting the ball well.  But I just can't help but think that he doesn't make his teammates better, while Harden obviously does.  They wouldn't even be needing these recent heroics if he had just learned to share his toys at the beginning and found a way to make Dwight feel comfortable.  

 

After that, I don't know.  Fascinating how before the year, Dwight would have been at #3.  Now, who knows where you put him.  Harden's obviously jumped quite a bit.  I despise Russell Westbrook.  Absolutely despise.  And while no one has a more beautiful game than Derrick Rose, I think that he too is tremendously overrated.  He's a great player, but the general uninformed media made it out to seem like he was carrying that Bulls team in his MVP year when in actuality, they had a historic defense.  

[Richards]

Statistically, Harden had better FG%, 3-PT% at OKC last year.

PPG, Ast, and TO are higher this season.

 

Surprisingly, Harden avg min at OKC last year is 31 and this year at 38.

 

There are significant jumps in PPG and FTA (FTM) which he benefited from more minutes, more ball handling and more driving opportunities.

 

That said, I wonder how Lin fit in with Harden moving forward.

[Sir Thursday]

Here's how it breaks down for me:

 

1. Lebron 

--huge gap--

--huge gap--

2. Durant

3. Paul - I honestly feel like Paul might actually be better than Durant.  But I'll put him at 3.  But look at their teams.  Paul has a talented supporting cast, yes, but he creates a lot of those guys.  I feel if you gave Paul a team similar to Durant's, he'd have them right where Durant has his.  

--gap--

4/5. Kobe/Harden - I can't decide here.  Kobe's obviously having one of the best years of his career, shooting the ball well.  But I just can't help but think that he doesn't make his teammates better, while Harden obviously does.  They wouldn't even be needing these recent heroics if he had just learned to share his toys at the beginning and found a way to make Dwight feel comfortable.  

 

After that, I don't know.  Fascinating how before the year, Dwight would have been at #3.  Now, who knows where you put him.  Harden's obviously jumped quite a bit.  I despise Russell Westbrook.  Absolutely despise.  And while no one has a more beautiful game than Derrick Rose, I think that he too is tremendously overrated.  He's a great player, but the general uninformed media made it out to seem like he was carrying that Bulls team in his MVP year when in actuality, they had a historic defense.  

 

No love for TP? On any other team, people would be looking at the strength of his play and the W/L record of his team and showering him with praise, but because of the great coaching staff and team ethic in San Antonio everyone has an excuse to ignore him. There's nobody I'm more scared of playing against out of the P&R - he routinely murders the Rockets out of it. Whenever I see him play other teams he does the same.

 

ST

[PKM]

Only when you're wrong. Here you're not. Rose stole LeBron's MVP (kinda like Barkley did with MJ's, or Robinson did with Hakeem's). Love is a top 10 player, but Harden is better.

I would have given it to Howard that year instead, because LBJ wasn't quite himself that year by his standards.  My list was Howard, Dirk/LBJ tied, and then Rose.  Still, Rose was a "oh God, why are sportswriters so stupid" moment. 

 

As for Rahat, ST mentioned Parker, but what about Melo/Duncan?  I think those two are legitimate candidates to be above Harden.

[phaketrash]

No love for TP? On any other team, people would be looking at the strength of his play and the W/L record of his team and showering him with praise, but because of the great coaching staff and team ethic in San Antonio everyone has an excuse to ignore him. There's nobody I'm more scared of playing against out of the P&R - he routinely murders the Rockets out of it. Whenever I see him play other teams he does the same.

 

ST

 

ST, would TP be in your top 5? He'd make my top 10 easily, but I don't know if I would put him in the top 5. I do agree that he seems widely undervalued, but some of those players are near transcendental stars.

[PKM]

ST, would TP be in your top 5? He'd make my top 10 easily, but I don't know if I would put him in the top 5. I do agree that he seems widely undervalued, but some of those players are near transcendental stars.

Which players?  Obviously Parker is below Lebron and Durant, but he has just as much of a case to be a transcendental star as Melo or Harden at this stage of his career.  If anything, he has a better case than Melo. 

[phaketrash]

Which players?  Obviously Parker is below Lebron and Durant, but he has just as much of a case to be a transcendental star as Melo or Harden at this stage of his career.  If anything, he has a better case than Melo. 

 

Lebron and Durant easily above. Chris Paul makes a team better than TP, and Kobe is having one of his best seasons. With his history and age put into Context, I still have to put Kobe at #4. TP might edge Harden for #5, though that seems (hopefully) to be a limited time thing. I would not put Melo above TP nor Kobe or the likes.

[Rahat Huq]

TP possibly but like you said, it's very strong to factor out of those variables in San Antonio.

[Sir Thursday]

ST, would TP be in your top 5? He'd make my top 10 easily, but I don't know if I would put him in the top 5. I do agree that he seems widely undervalued, but some of those players are near transcendental stars.

 

I'd go:

 

1. LeBron

2. Durant

3=. CP3

3=. Parker

 

Yes, Parker has a great setup in San Antonio (admittedly one that's capable of winning without him on occasion), but for the past couple of years he has been the driving force behind that team. When he's got gas in the tank Duncan still provides strong support, ditto Manu when he's healthy, but just as we don't penalise Durant for having Westbrook or LeBron for having Wade and Bosh in these debates, I don't see that they should stop Parker from consideration here. And yeah, Popovich is a great coach, but at what point do you draw the line between "it's all the system" and start acknowledging that even if the system is helpful, it's still Parker out there shredding opposing defences and finding the open shooters.

 

I guess I don't really place too much emphasis on whether or not a player is in a helpful system or not when deciding how good a player they are. In my eyes Amare was a top 10 player while he was in Phoenix, irrespective of whether or not he remained a top 10 player when he left for New York. If you're asking "who are the top 5 players in the league right now", then I don't think it makes sense to penalize for systemic context - every player is in a unique situation and it is only their performance in their own situation that is relevant.

 

ST

[phaketrash]

I'd go:

 

1. LeBron

2. Durant

3=. CP3

3=. Parker

 

Yes, Parker has a great setup in San Antonio (admittedly one that's capable of winning without him on occasion), but for the past couple of years he has been the driving force behind that team. When he's got gas in the tank Duncan still provides strong support, ditto Manu when he's healthy, but just as we don't penalise Durant for having Westbrook or LeBron for having Wade and Bosh in these debates, I don't see that they should stop Parker from consideration here. And yeah, Popovich is a great coach, but at what point do you draw the line between "it's all the system" and start acknowledging that even if the system is helpful, it's still Parker out there shredding opposing defences and finding the open shooters.

 

I guess I don't really place too much emphasis on whether or not a player is in a helpful system or not when deciding how good a player they are. In my eyes Amare was a top 10 player while he was in Phoenix, irrespective of whether or not he remained a top 10 player when he left for New York. If you're asking "who are the top 5 players in the league right now", then I don't think it makes sense to penalize for systemic context - every player is in a unique situation and it is only their performance in their own situation that is relevant.

 

ST

 

I think that absolutely makes sense ST, and it comes somewhat close to where I'd put Parker. For me it was:

 

1. Lebron

2. Durant

3. CP3

4. Kobe

5. TP

 

I just see Kobe as doing even more than TP is this season, esp. in the context of everything that is going on.

[timetodienow1234567]

I've been watching some Rockets games since I've last commented on this thread. I don't think Harden is top 10 yet. All of the guys above him are 2-way players. Kobe might take some plays off defensively, but more often than not is a +, defensively. Durant might not be great, but with his length, he's a decent defender. CP3 will probably lead the league in steals again. TP is a great team defender(just not a gaudy stat guy). I've changed my mind. I can't put Harden in that upper tier yet with his shoddy defense.