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@  thejohnnygold : (14 September 2015 - 04:36 PM) A good article from Blinebury talking about when Hakeem and Moses used to play in the park. LINK
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Howard/Asik pairing


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#21 Mario Peña

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 08:42 PM

what's wrong with making assumption? we are fans. and you have just written your own assumption about great players


I think it seems pretty clear that I was asking ale11 not to include me when he says "we all know" in his original post. I am not sure what you are going on about.
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#22 Mario Peña

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 08:46 PM

It's really way too early in my humble opinion to be making season altering decisions but hey there's a lot of excitement in these parts.
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#23 Mason Khamvilay

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 08:46 PM

I think it seems pretty clear that I was asking ale11 not to include me when he says "we all know" in his original post. I am not sure what you are going on about.

Keep calm and love Houston Rockets!


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#24 Mario Peña

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 08:53 PM

I am calm. And don't worry about my Houston Rocket love it's been in me since the 80's. I have been to one game so far and hopefully I can get a hall pass from the missus to go to another in a couple weeks (fingers crossed). Pretty exciting season.
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#25 It's Dee Way Ferrell

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 09:52 PM

I do believe this tandem has reached a potency. If you take a look at the defense, other than the breakdown in l.a., we pretty much looked good for the most part. Say for instance, you start a stretch four that's not Tjones, we have came back in all games to win, except the portland game, will those leads we tend to allow early be reduced or will they inflate. On the avg however practicing the establishment of a defensive tone is always the best approach. Tjones is the only safe defensive choice, because he can defend stretch & true 4's. Yet he look lost on offense, as does parsons at times. Even still we avg now a team best 107 ppg, 3rd or 2nd best in the league. Against portland Mchale went back to an 8 man rotation because of the ineffectiveness of the other backups. Then on top of that parsons, garcia, & casspi looked helpless against a true pf, not named nowitzki. They look like worms in a fish mouth. The problem is not the tandem who boast the best rebounding duo of the league, but the mentality of ever player out there. Except Lin, I think his attacking style keeps us in most games, like Harden does. Howard in the post is actually the key to our success because no team is going to let you run & gun them out the playoffs, except G.S. Plus playing defense opens the offense completely. Dwight is the most active, posting up just as much as he picks & roll. Then I'm starting to recognize the teams chemistry with Howard. So glad they chose this half of the season to improve their chemistry, & usually a beating puts every one in a different gear. If you down about the Clips loss, don't be, just thank the dice & keep on rolling
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#26 rockets best fan

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 11:24 PM

I do believe this tandem has reached a potency. If you take a look at the defense, other than the breakdown in l.a., we pretty much looked good for the most part. Say for instance, you start a stretch four that's not Tjones, we have came back in all games to win, except the portland game, will those leads we tend to allow early be reduced or will they inflate. On the avg however practicing the establishment of a defensive tone is always the best approach. Tjones is the only safe defensive choice, because he can defend stretch & true 4's. Yet he look lost on offense, as does parsons at times. Even still we avg now a team best 107 ppg, 3rd or 2nd best in the league. Against portland Mchale went back to an 8 man rotation because of the ineffectiveness of the other backups. Then on top of that parsons, garcia, & casspi looked helpless against a true pf, not named nowitzki. They look like worms in a fish mouth. The problem is not the tandem who boast the best rebounding duo of the league, but the mentality of ever player out there. Except Lin, I think his attacking style keeps us in most games, like Harden does. Howard in the post is actually the key to our success because no team is going to let you run & gun them out the playoffs, except G.S. Plus playing defense opens the offense completely. Dwight is the most active, posting up just as much as he picks & roll. Then I'm starting to recognize the teams chemistry with Howard. So glad they chose this half of the season to improve their chemistry, & usually a beating puts every one in a different gear. If you down about the Clips loss, don't be, just thank the dice & keep on rolling

totally disagree. the Asik/Howard combo looks ok defensively.......not superior......just ok. however offensively it displayed mass confusion. it looks like players don't know where they should be or where they should rotate to keep the proper space on the floor. in addition you mention T-Jones as not having it offensively......while I disagree with that statement, explain to me how you see Asik as offensive improvement. I agree with you T-Jones will probably grab close to Asik in rebounds if allowed the same amount of time on the floor as Asik, but T-Jones is a much better offensive option. our problem with moving Asik in trade is we don't have a backup center. we are playing Asik simply to keep him happy, but at some point that will have to be pushed aside for the overall health of the team. Yes we were right to give it a try, but the lineup's flaws outweigh it's strengths against all but a few teams in the league. only teams that play big are affected by it. the others not so much. we either get Asik to become happy in a lesser role or trade him IMO


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you can only warn a man that the bridge is out.....if he keeps driving he's on his own B)


#27 rocketrick

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    Posted 07 November 2013 - 12:49 AM

    Howard said it in the preseason: everybody needs to sacrifice a bit to make this work and so far I don't see him sacrificing for the team. Just for the record, I'm not saying that he should do it nor that it's not awesome to see him in a Rockets' uniform, but we know that Asik is a team-first guy and Howard is all about the stats. Don't get fooled by the hope of maturation from him, we all knew he came here because Harden is willing to share the ball with him unlike Kobe.

     

    It takes effort to make this work, but our stars need to lead by example, and so far both Harden (defensive liability) and Howard aren't exactly "taking one for the team". I repeat, I still believe this could work given team, but so far isn't looking all that good. Maybe I got too hyped over the idea that we could bring Howard while keeping Asik, I'd hate to see Omer go.....

     

    So D12 being the team first player he is and not complaining at all for one second in the media about being shifted over to PF when both D12 and Asik are on the floor together is not considered D12 "sacrificing a bit to make this work"?

     

    Does anyone else on our boards believe that D12 "is all about the stats"?

     

    Good grief, it's only 5 games into the regular season, the Rockets are 4-1, and people apparently are already panicking I guess because the Rockets aren't blowing everybody out by 40 everytime out, I have no clue why they are panicking. Sure, some of the Rockets rotations are not exactly smooth. And just exactly how many games together has this group played?


    Edited by rocketrick, 07 November 2013 - 12:51 AM.

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    #28 ale11

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    Posted 07 November 2013 - 04:24 AM

    So D12 being the team first player he is and not complaining at all for one second in the media about being shifted over to PF when both D12 and Asik are on the floor together is not considered D12 "sacrificing a bit to make this work"?

     

    Does anyone else on our boards believe that D12 "is all about the stats"?

     

    Good grief, it's only 5 games into the regular season, the Rockets are 4-1, and people apparently are already panicking I guess because the Rockets aren't blowing everybody out by 40 everytime out, I have no clue why they are panicking. Sure, some of the Rockets rotations are not exactly smooth. And just exactly how many games together has this group played?

     

    Like you said, I don't know what I'm talking about. It's an opinion which you and FS and maybe everybody in this forum doesn't agree with, but that doesn't entitle you to completely disregard what I think by saying "he clearly doesn't know what he is talking about". But if you feel that way, I'll restrain myself from making such stupid comments and embarrass myself and limit to just reading what people with more knowledge and understanding of the game has to say about what they see on the court.


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    #29 rocketrick

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      Posted 07 November 2013 - 04:53 AM

      Like you said, I don't know what I'm talking about. It's an opinion which you and FS and maybe everybody in this forum doesn't agree with, but that doesn't entitle you to completely disregard what I think by saying "he clearly doesn't know what he is talking about". But if you feel that way, I'll restrain myself from making such stupid comments and embarrass myself and limit to just reading what people with more knowledge and understanding of the game has to say about what they see on the court.


      Hey there Mr Ale11, it's definitely OK to have differing opinions as that is an everyday fact on these boards! Still, when you make such, in my opinion, damning statements against D12 caring more about his stats than the team and not willing to sacrifice, well, you must expect strong reaction in return.

      I am sorry if anything I said in my prior posts offended you.

      I apparently have a completely different opinion than you on D12 and his impact on the Rockets to date.

      Edited by rocketrick, 07 November 2013 - 04:54 AM.

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      #30 Drew in Abilene

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      Posted 07 November 2013 - 05:17 AM

      I'm of the opinion that keeping Asik is vital to the Rockets' success this year and next year. While things still look clunky at best while they're both on the floor at the beginning of the first and third quarters, those times have produced some dominant defensive performances. Against Portland's potent offense, they kept big men like Aldridge and Lopez out of sorts and denied most of the driving baskets from the likes of Batum, Lillard, and Matthews. The only reason the Blazers kept the game close in the first quarter was getting hot from deep. At the start of the third quarter, the Rockets' defense held Portland to 2 points while scoring 15 of their own during the minutes with Asik and Howard in the lineup.

       

      In my mind, if Houston plays Asik and Howard for 10-15 minutes a night to start the first and third quarters, it's a positive for us. It makes the offense ugly for a few minutes, but it also sets a strong defensive tone. We have the scoring to make up for some stunted offensive minutes, and I think the combination of our long range shooters and fast break attacking will keep us either in the lead or close during those defensively focused minutes. On the flip side, this tandem forces opponents to shoot from long range or risk driving among the giants. 

       

      Lots of people, whether they want to keep Asik or trade him, have suggested that it's too early to make a decision. I would agree, although what I've seen so far makes me believe that the tandem is already working well in small spurts. I'm incredibly wary of losing Asik's defense for when Howard sits, but I'm also legitimately excited by what I see with their Twin Towers front. 


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      #31 Mario Peña

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      Posted 07 November 2013 - 05:55 AM

      I completely agree DrewinAbilene. The tandem is a severe disruption and prevents the other team from ever getting their offense rolling. Offensively later after the first half of the first and third Harden and Howard can go to work. This team is one 3 point shooting perimeter defending guard away from having a solid rotation.

       

      Also, I am starting to think that Jones and Motiejunas won't be rotation players in the NBA but I cannot really be certain until next season.


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      How sweet it is!

      #32 rockets best fan

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      Posted 07 November 2013 - 06:25 AM

      I completely agree DrewinAbilene. The tandem is a severe disruption and prevents the other team from ever getting their offense rolling. Offensively later after the first half of the first and third Harden and Howard can go to work. This team is one 3 point shooting perimeter defending guard away from having a solid rotation.

       

      Also, I am starting to think that Jones and Motiejunas won't be rotation players in the NBA but I cannot really be certain until next season.

      I agree the tandem is a disruption defensively to the opposition, but offensively they are a disruption to us. I was of the opinion that given time they would figure out a way to co-exist. I know the sample size is small, but I have not seen enough positive signs to lead me to believe they will ever work out the rough edges. we seem to prosper much better with our small lineup right now. as for T-Jones and D-Mo they will play this year and will be productive. T-Jones is closer to ready, but both will be useful on this 82 game marathon. as soon as we realize we have seen enough of the Asik/Howard combo or make a trade expect to see more of these two.


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      you can only warn a man that the bridge is out.....if he keeps driving he's on his own B)


      #33 Rahat Huq

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        Posted 07 November 2013 - 01:58 PM

        As Drew said, we've now seen the Asik/Howard pairing dominate defensively twice in third quarters: once in the comeback against Utah and once in the comeback against Portland.

         

        But I think people are framing the issue incorrectly.  Undoubtedly, the Howard/Asik pairing has produced one of the worst net ratings on the team when they've shared the court.  (At last check - I'm feeling too lazy right now to go look it up again.)  But the issue isn't just that pairing's production in a vacuum.  They are absolutely crushing teams with their small lineups - yes.  But take out Asik in those 12-13 minutes Howard will have to sit and you know what happens to those net ratings for those small lineups (see: last year.)  So, in essence - the real issue is the difference between 1) the increased starting lineup production a new power forward would bring in trade (in swapping out Asik) and 2) what is lost when Dwight is on the bench, without Asik.

         

        If you got someone who could also play backup center, it eases the pain.  But those guys don't really exist.  And I also think that if Marcus Camby were like 38 instead of 48, Asik would have already been traded.  But that's not the case.  As of now, I just don't see them finding any Asik trade worthwhile, given what it will do when Dwight goes to the bench.  Kevin Love is really the only guy I'd trade for in a heartbeat and he's looking like a top-7 player right now.  Minnesota isn't trading him.


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        #34 rocketrick

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          Posted 07 November 2013 - 02:33 PM

          As Drew said, we've now seen the Asik/Howard pairing dominate defensively twice in third quarters: once in the comeback against Utah and once in the comeback against Portland.

           

          But I think people are framing the issue incorrectly.  Undoubtedly, the Howard/Asik pairing has produced one of the worst net ratings on the team when they've shared the court.  (At last check - I'm feeling too lazy right now to go look it up again.)  But the issue isn't just that pairing's production in a vacuum.  They are absolutely crushing teams with their small lineups - yes.  But take out Asik in those 12-13 minutes Howard will have to sit and you know what happens to those net ratings for those small lineups (see: last year.)  So, in essence - the real issue is the difference between 1) the increased starting lineup production a new power forward would bring in trade (in swapping out Asik) and 2) what is lost when Dwight is on the bench, without Asik.

           

          If you got someone who could also play backup center, it eases the pain.  But those guys don't really exist.  And I also think that if Marcus Camby were like 38 instead of 48, Asik would have already been traded.  But that's not the case.  As of now, I just don't see them finding any Asik trade worthwhile, given what it will do when Dwight goes to the bench.  Kevin Love is really the only guy I'd trade for in a heartbeat and he's looking like a top-7 player right now.  Minnesota isn't trading him.

           

          Well stated, Rahat, I couldn't have said it any clearer or better than you just did.

           

          Going into the season I was not a big believer of the D12/Asik pairing working but I agree that having both right now makes the most sense for the Rockets.

           

          It's only 5 games into the regular season plus D12 and Asik only played together the final 2 preseason games due to Asik injury.

           

          Plenty of time for the Rockets to figure this out in my opinion.


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          #35 Mason Khamvilay

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          Posted 07 November 2013 - 02:40 PM

          As Drew said, we've now seen the Asik/Howard pairing dominate defensively twice in third quarters: once in the comeback against Utah and once in the comeback against Portland.

           

          But I think people are framing the issue incorrectly.  Undoubtedly, the Howard/Asik pairing has produced one of the worst net ratings on the team when they've shared the court.  (At last check - I'm feeling too lazy right now to go look it up again.)  But the issue isn't just that pairing's production in a vacuum.  They are absolutely crushing teams with their small lineups - yes.  But take out Asik in those 12-13 minutes Howard will have to sit and you know what happens to those net ratings for those small lineups (see: last year.)  So, in essence - the real issue is the difference between 1) the increased starting lineup production a new power forward would bring in trade (in swapping out Asik) and 2) what is lost when Dwight is on the bench, without Asik.

           

          If you got someone who could also play backup center, it eases the pain.  But those guys don't really exist.  And I also think that if Marcus Camby were like 38 instead of 48, Asik would have already been traded.  But that's not the case.  As of now, I just don't see them finding any Asik trade worthwhile, given what it will do when Dwight goes to the bench.  Kevin Love is really the only guy I'd trade for in a heartbeat and he's looking like a top-7 player right now.  Minnesota isn't trading him.

          Those guys do exist though, I can name a ton of serviceable back-up centers. 


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          #36 rocketrick

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            Posted 07 November 2013 - 02:45 PM

            That can also stretch the floor with dependable outside shooting? Otherwise, the Rockets are better off standing pat for the moment.

             

            Again, it's only 5 games into the regular season. These guys haven't played together as a unit any longer than that.

             

            I'm sure there are aggressive GM's out there just hoping the Rockets get panicky for a quick move. That would absolutely be disastrous.


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            #37 Rahat Huq

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              Posted 07 November 2013 - 03:00 PM

              Those guys do exist though, I can name a ton of serviceable back-up centers. 

              Serviceable backup centers that can be acquired?  


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              #38 Drew in Abilene

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              Posted 07 November 2013 - 05:20 PM

              As the old saying goes, "Defense wins championships." After watching Houston fail to play good defense for several years, I'm ecstatic that we have two centers who are excellent defenders, and that they can play together for short stretches. I fully acknowledge that against some teams, especially with stretch fours that can spread the Rockets out, we may lose some regular season games if Houston doesn't adjust. But we have the personnel to go small when needed. Our roster is currently set up to be able to neutralize the opposition's strengths and attack their weaknesses.

               

              If Houston ends up playing Memphis or Indiana in the playoffs, McHale can trot out two incredible low-post defenders, and force their perimeter players to out shoot Harden, Parsons, Garcia, Casspi, Lin, and Beverley. Negating their low-post strength gives the Rockets an advantage. Having Omer as an option gives Houston that chance to match up with any big team. The other 36 minutes of the game, in which it's either Howard or Asik and Jones, Motiejunas, Casspi, Parsons, or whoever, gives us a full season of preparing the team for healthy doses of small ball, which will also be needed at times.

               

              My thought is that if the Howard-Asik tandem can function for 10-15 minutes per game without us falling behind, the positives will far outweigh potential negatives.


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              #39 thejohnnygold

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              Posted 07 November 2013 - 05:42 PM

              Firstly, I think we should just explain to Asik that he is now the back-up and if he wants more minutes he needs to get better on offense.  He can't argue that.  This gives us the best answer as we can still twin tower when necessary and the rest of the time we will have a nicely spread offense.  I also think the coaching staff is not getting very creative with the twin tower line-up on offense, but what do I know?

               

              We find ourselves in a bit of a pickle with Asik.  I am beginning to believe that addition by subtraction may be the way to go if we are determined to trade him.  We aren't going to get a star for him.  We don't want to "lose" the trade, but in this case I think we need to throw public perception out the window and just move him for a quality back-up and maybe a couple of picks.  Yeah, it's a bad deal on paper, but on the court it should clear everything up.  Roles become apparent and defined.  We still have Greg Smith (despite his perceived lack of defense) who can take some minutes at C/PF.  Our second unit can become a 3 & D squad.  Jones, Garcia, Bev, Casspi, and whatever back-up center we get.  Just let them jack up threes and see what happens :unsure: .

               

              The bottom line is if we can't make things work with him then this would be a good way out.  I know the "we need to get max value" posts are coming.  In this case, with our depth, we don't need a big haul--we need to fill a role.  It's addition by subtraction.

               

              By the way, why the heck do I keep seeing the Rockets running plays for Asik in the post.  It's one thing to let Dwight post up, but Asik has no business doing this. :huh:


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              #40 Mason Khamvilay

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              Posted 07 November 2013 - 05:51 PM

              Serviceable backup centers that can be acquired?  

              Nobody knows who can and can't be acquired, we can only speculate.


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