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@  2016Champions : (17 June 2013 - 05:26 AM) I had a feeling Ginobili would regress to the mean.
@  Dan G : (17 June 2013 - 04:33 AM) Now I had no idea Ginobli was gonna pull a Wade and turn back the clock. I give Pop the majority of the credit for that.
@  Dan G : (17 June 2013 - 04:32 AM) I don't think it was too ballsy on San Antonio's part. With the way Splitter has been playing and since Miami has started Miller the last two games, I thought it was inevitable that Ginobli would start.
@  RollingWave : (17 June 2013 - 02:57 AM) I must say that both team had some serious ballsy lineup changes this series, Ginobilli start? and dominate?
@  2016Champions : (16 June 2013 - 09:26 PM) According to Dr. Klapper, treatment for Parker's hamstring will only last one half. Lateral movement and jumping will be a problem.
@  2016Champions : (16 June 2013 - 04:56 AM) Parker said Pop was very angry with him for the constant nagging insisting he can play, Pop really didn't want Parker to play. Just goes to show Pop knows best.
@  RollingWave : (16 June 2013 - 04:28 AM) Parker says his hamstring is almost shot , that would probably doom the Spurs if he can't play at least 80%
@  2016Champions : (15 June 2013 - 12:38 AM) Miami is 6-0 in playoffs following losses (outscoring opponents by 20.7 PPG in those games). They've won 12 straight games following losses.
@  2016Champions : (14 June 2013 - 04:50 PM) The Heat are notoriously slow starters. Once they get going it's like a snowball effect, they get more dangerous as they go along.
@  2016Champions : (14 June 2013 - 04:49 PM) My heart says SA, but my mind says MIA
@  rocketrick : (14 June 2013 - 11:06 AM) Anybody else going to San Antone for Game 5??
@  RollingWave : (14 June 2013 - 10:15 AM) The Heat is doomed / the Spurs is doom , repeat until game 7
@  2016Champions : (14 June 2013 - 06:28 AM) Now that Wade's knee doesn't seem to be bothering him anymore, Spurs are in trouble.
@  rocketrick : (14 June 2013 - 06:26 AM) Mark Twain once was quoted--Reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated. Not sure that motivates the Heat but food for thought for whatever that is worth!
@  2016Champions : (14 June 2013 - 04:43 AM) What happened to Parker that second half? Hamstring caught up to him?
@  Ostrow : (14 June 2013 - 03:57 AM) Has Manu had any good playoff games?
@  RollingWave : (14 June 2013 - 03:50 AM) G4 was very interesting, both teams making big adjustments, but I think at the end of the day Wade's rejuvenation / dead cat bounce versus Manu 's continued suck is the difference
@  RollingWave : (13 June 2013 - 08:49 AM) @rocketrick lol good one. I honestly don't know what happens now, I was expecting Spurs to win G3 but not by THAT much
@  rocketrick : (12 June 2013 - 10:55 AM) I can't wait for Game 5 after the Heat burn the Spurs on Thursday night
@  RollingWave : (12 June 2013 - 06:52 AM) The amazing thing is this 2nd rounder and undrafted guy played like super stars while the best player ever an another sure fired HOF guy played like junk

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An exploration of the scenario involving both Chris Paul and Dwight Howard


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#1 Red94

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    Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:36 PM

    New post: An exploration of the scenario involving both Chris Paul and Dwight Howard
    By: rahat huq

    Last Sunday, the Chronicle reported that the Rockets were diligently making preparations for a pursuit of Clippers star point guard Chris Paul.  The report wasn't much of a surprise as the topic is one which has been widely discussed dating back to early last season.  If the Rockets can't get Howard, they'll naturally want to be ready for the other big star on the market.  Many have wondered, however, about the dream scenario pitting both Paul and Howard on the Rockets and its feasibility.  Could it be done?

    The biggest obstacle--aside from even getting these guys to commit--is that it almost certainly would require a sign&trade with either the Clippers or Lakers.  This is because unless either or both of the stars agreed to discounts, it just wouldn't be feasible to create the amount of cap room to sign both players to their full max, outright.  For instance, because the cap figure came in at $58.5million (rather than the $60million many had been expecting), to even fit in Howard's $20.5million max within existent cap room would require either (of the most favorable scenarios not involving Motiejunas/Jones) a) trading Thomas Robinson for essentially nothing along with paying a team to take on Royce White or b) trading Thomas Robinson and Greg Smith and waiving Royce White via the stretch provision.

    Morey would then need to give away Asik and Lin for free (a combined $16.7million) and then, even after trading away one of Terrence Jones or Motiejunas for free, factoring in roster charges, could still only offer Chris Paul $17.2million.  Paul's max is $18.7million.  You're then looking at needing to deal away the other of Motiejunas/Jones, along with Beverley, to even approach that figure, assuming he'd budge.  Considering you'd need to give away your entire team for free (or future considerations), in separate deals, it's just not entirely realistic.  (While those deals would leave the Rockets in the $18.7million range, that figure would be reduced by outstanding roster charges.) This is not even mentioning the critical fact that I don't think it would be possible to give away Jeremy Lin's $8.3million contract without taking back incoming salary.*

    The more plausible scenario would be the one that saw the team signing one of the two free agents outright and then trading Asik and Lin in a sign&trade for the other.  The sign&trade scenario is more doable because, due to the rules, outgoing and incoming salary does not need to be matched dollar for dollar, but rather only need be within 125% (or 150% for non-tax paying teams).  The Rockets wouldn't need to gut the entire team to get Paul his money.

    The problem here, as I noted above, is getting one of the Los Angeles teams to agree to help.  Let's assume the Rockets signed Paul outright with their cap space.  While some have argued that Lin and Asik would help the Lakers rebuild, I just don't see it that way.  If I'm Mitch Kupchak, and I'm losing Howard, I'd rather start fresh in free agency next season rather than saddle myself with $17million incoming.  I'd almost go so far as to say that the Laker scenario has no chance of happening.

    Your better bet is the opposite case: signing Howard outright and dangling Lin and Asik to the Clippers.  I suppose one can envision the Clippers taking the two Rockets and then, with DeAndre Jordan and Eric Bledsoe, sorting their roster out on the trade market.  But with Donald Sterling's documented frugality, I don't know if it is likely.

    *[sidenote: Much has been made of Lin's marketability in discussions surrounding the point guard's tradability.  While his presence on the roster surely does open up business ventures independent from the Rockets for owner Les Alexander, keep in mind that actual NBA revenue is shared.  As far as those other ventures, we possibly won't ever be privy to the impact Lin is making upon the owner's bottom line.  For another NBA team, in this discussion, the question becomes whether  those other opportunities justify an $8million roster cost (and expected $15million 'real' cost in 2014) for a mediocre starting point guard.  And yes, Lin is merely mediocre at this point in time.]

    To even make the above scenario work, however, one would need to concoct a 'Prisoner's Dilemma', pitting Kupchak against the Clippers.  Why?  Because if one of the stars is signed outright, what motivation would the other star's current team have in cooperating in a sign&trade and helping Houston set up SuperFriends 2.0?  For example, if the Rockets sign Howard with straight cash, the Clippers can just call Paul's bluff and refuse to deal - outside of Houston, there wouldn't be any superior alternatives to Paul than just simply returning to L.A.  If Morey could get a commitment from both players upfront, the two teams would be pitted against one another in a race to at least get back value in Asik and Lin rather than be the team left with nothing.  (This is of course assuming the unlikely scenario that the Lakers would even want Asik and Lin.)

    With that said, however, the risky aspect of selling the two players upon a united front is the fear that they'd become enamored only with a 'Big 3' rather than just with the Rockets.  If everything fell apart in negotiations, with the other teams refusing to deal, the Rockets would be in danger of losing not just one, but both players.  It's imperative that Morey sell each player on the merits of playing with Harden in Houston rather than with Harden and one another.

    Dwight Howard and Chris Paul may be watching the Finals tonight wondering what it would be like to form their own super-team.  But unless they agree to paycuts, it's highly unlikely that will happen, at least in Houston.  (While the national media has largely reported that the Hawks too can pair the two players, for detailed reasons requiring another post, this also cannot happen without discounted rates.)

    And for Morey, while forming the next Big 3 is certainly enticing, the pitch would be a risky one that could leave the team without either.



    #2 rockets best fan

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    Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:02 PM

    @Rahat

    now you know calling Lin mediocre that you have open yourself to the wrath of the Lin advocates :lol: I personally agree, but the fallout from when I said the same.............well all you have to do is look at the DON'T GIVE UP ON J-LIN thread..........otherwise very good article. I think some here got overhyped about the possibility, but it's unlikely to happen. we are better off chasing D-12....adding him and building around D-12, Harden and Parsons with a sidekick of asik and Beverly combined with our stable of young forwards



    #3 2016Champions

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    Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:57 PM

    waiving Royce White via the stretch provision.

    Oh? I didn't know about the stretch provision. Nice! 


    Don't be too quick to assume you're right and the experts are wrong. 

     

    "A fool who recognizes his own ignorance is thereby in fact a wise man, but a fool who considers himself wise -- that is what one really calls a fool." ~Gautama Buddha


    #4 2016Champions

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    Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:42 PM

    So I did some research, and I'm sure I'm not the only one here who still has alot to learn about the CBA so I thought I'd share my findings: 

     

    Royce White has one more year on his contract where he makes 1.7m, and with the stretch provision we spread that out over 3 years cutting it down to only only around 566,000 per year... but there's a roster charge of around 460,000 on top of that (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). So with everything added up, waiving and stretching Royce White's contract saves us about 700,000.

     

    It's kinda funny that after all that we would still need to ask Dwight for a small discount, but it's only roughly 200,000 which he has to agree to right? It would be dumb if he doesn't. 

     

    edit: As for signing Chris Paul too, like Rahut said there's alot of complications and risks involved. Imo the only way we're getting both superstars is if they both agree to a small discount. 


    Don't be too quick to assume you're right and the experts are wrong. 

     

    "A fool who recognizes his own ignorance is thereby in fact a wise man, but a fool who considers himself wise -- that is what one really calls a fool." ~Gautama Buddha


    #5 rocketrick

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      Posted 14 June 2013 - 12:41 AM

      New post: An exploration of the scenario involving both Chris Paul and Dwight Howard
      By: rahat huq


      Last Sunday, the Chronicle reported that the Rockets were diligently making preparations for a pursuit of Clippers star point guard Chris Paul.  The report wasn't much of a surprise as the topic is one which has been widely discussed dating back to early last season.  If the Rockets can't get Howard, they'll naturally want to be ready for the other big star on the market.  Many have wondered, however, about the dream scenario pitting both Paul and Howard on the Rockets and its feasibility.  Could it be done?
      {C}
      The biggest obstacle--aside from even getting these guys to commit--is that it almost certainly would require a sign&trade with either the Clippers or Lakers.  This is because unless either or both of the stars agreed to discounts, it just wouldn't be feasible to create the amount of cap room to sign both players to their full max, outright.  For instance, because the cap figure came in at $58.5million (rather than the $60million many had been expecting), to even fit in Howard's $20.5million max within existent cap room would require either (of the most favorable scenarios not involving Motiejunas/Jones) a) trading Thomas Robinson for essentially nothing along with paying a team to take on Royce White or B) trading Thomas Robinson and Greg Smith and waiving Royce White via the stretch provision.
      Morey would then need to give away Asik and Lin for free (a combined $16.7million) and then, even after trading away one of Terrence Jones or Motiejunas for free, factoring in roster charges, could still only offer Chris Paul $17.2million.  Paul's max is $18.7million.  You're then looking at needing to deal away the other of Motiejunas/Jones, along with Beverley, to even approach that figure, assuming he'd budge.  Considering you'd need to give away your entire team for free (or future considerations), in separate deals, it's just not entirely realistic.  (While those deals would leave the Rockets in the $18.7million range, that figure would be reduced by outstanding roster charges.) This is not even mentioning the critical fact that I don't think it would be possible to give away Jeremy Lin's $8.3million contract without taking back incoming salary.*
      The more plausible scenario would be the one that saw the team signing one of the two free agents outright and then trading Asik and Lin in a sign&trade for the other.  The sign&trade scenario is more doable because, due to the rules, outgoing and incoming salary does not need to be matched dollar for dollar, but rather only need be within 125% (or 150% for non-tax paying teams).  The Rockets wouldn't need to gut the entire team to get Paul his money.
      The problem here, as I noted above, is getting one of the Los Angeles teams to agree to help.  Let's assume the Rockets signed Paul outright with their cap space.  While some have argued that Lin and Asik would help the Lakers rebuild, I just don't see it that way.  If I'm Mitch Kupchak, and I'm losing Howard, I'd rather start fresh in free agency next season rather than saddle myself with $17million incoming.  I'd almost go so far as to say that the Laker scenario has no chance of happening.
      Your better bet is the opposite case: signing Howard outright and dangling Lin and Asik to the Clippers.  I suppose one can envision the Clippers taking the two Rockets and then, with DeAndre Jordan and Eric Bledsoe, sorting their roster out on the trade market.  But with Donald Sterling's documented frugality, I don't know if it is likely.
      *[sidenote: Much has been made of Lin's marketability in discussions surrounding the point guard's tradability.  While his presence on the roster surely does open up business ventures independent from the Rockets for owner Les Alexander, keep in mind that actual NBA revenue is shared.  As far as those other ventures, we possibly won't ever be privy to the impact Lin is making upon the owner's bottom line.  For another NBA team, in this discussion, the question becomes whether  those other opportunities justify an $8million roster cost (and expected $15million 'real' cost in 2014) for a mediocre starting point guard.  And yes, Lin is merely mediocre at this point in time.]
      To even make the above scenario work, however, one would need to concoct a 'Prisoner's Dilemma', pitting Kupchak against the Clippers.  Why?  Because if one of the stars is signed outright, what motivation would the other star's current team have in cooperating in a sign&trade and helping Houston set up SuperFriends 2.0?  For example, if the Rockets sign Howard with straight cash, the Clippers can just call Paul's bluff and refuse to deal - outside of Houston, there wouldn't be any superior alternatives to Paul than just simply returning to L.A.  If Morey could get a commitment from both players upfront, the two teams would be pitted against one another in a race to at least get back value in Asik and Lin rather than be the team left with nothing.  (This is of course assuming the unlikely scenario that the Lakers would even want Asik and Lin.)
      With that said, however, the risky aspect of selling the two players upon a united front is the fear that they'd become enamored only with a 'Big 3' rather than just with the Rockets.  If everything fell apart in negotiations, with the other teams refusing to deal, the Rockets would be in danger of losing not just one, but both players.  It's imperative that Morey sell each player on the merits of playing with Harden in Houston rather than with Harden and one another.
      Dwight Howard and Chris Paul may be watching the Finals tonight wondering what it would be like to form their own super-team.  But unless they agree to paycuts, it's highly unlikely that will happen, at least in Houston.  (While the national media has largely reported that the Hawks too can pair the two players, for detailed reasons requiring another post, this also cannot happen without discounted rates.)
      And for Morey, while forming the next Big 3 is certainly enticing, the pitch would be a risky one that could leave the team without either.

      I don't know how other contributors on this board feel, but I just don't see a Big 3 of Harden, CP3 and D12 meshing well at all.

      #6 timetodienow1234567

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      Posted 14 June 2013 - 12:49 AM

      Harden would not mesh well with CP3 at ALL. He loves being the primary ball handler. I don't see CP3 being worth 19 mil a year as an off-guard. That's just my take.

      Why so Serious? :D


      #7 RollingWave

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        Posted 14 June 2013 - 12:50 AM

        you make pieces fit, I think it makes more logical sense the Lebron (ball dominant do everything guy) + Wade (ball dominant scorer) + Bosh (no low post presence "center") anyway.

         

        Calling Lin mediocre compare to Chris Paul makes perfect sense. because there are only 2 other PG I would seriously consider not taking Chris Paul over (Parker and Westbrook) and even those 2 I might do it. everyone else but those 2 is mediocre compare to Chris Paul, even Steph Curry and Deron Williams.



        #8 timetodienow1234567

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        Posted 14 June 2013 - 12:52 AM

        I disagree. Steph and Westbrook would both be better fits with this team than CP3. A true point is wasted with Harden.

        Why so Serious? :D


        #9 rocketrick

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          Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:08 AM

          you make pieces fit, I think it makes more logical sense the Lebron (ball dominant do everything guy) + Wade (ball dominant scorer) + Bosh (no low post presence "center") anyway.

           
          Calling Lin mediocre compare to Chris Paul makes perfect sense. because there are only 2 other PG I would seriously consider not taking Chris Paul over (Parker and Westbrook) and even those 2 I might do it. everyone else but those 2 is mediocre compare to Chris Paul, even Steph Curry and Deron Williams.

          Just like you can't force rectangular pieces of a puzzle to fit spherical holes, I don't believe you can "force" various players ("pieces") to fit. Instead, it seems much more logical to have players that are better suited to play off of each other and that have differing strengths in their individual games that bring more to the team concept in an efficient manner.

          #10 RollingWave

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            Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:28 AM

            No, not really, players can change approach all the time, Harden had considerably less usage in OKC, and was playing a lot more off ball towards the later half of the regular season anyway.  there are some things that they might not do well enough, but Harden actually do a lot of things well, and might actually benefit from having less dribble time to be honest. Jeremy Lin wasn't playing the same way as he was in NY either,  Wade and Bosh both play rather different than they were playing 3+ years ago.

             

            if it's just offense, playing almost any combo could theoretically work.  there's always going to be some mismatch somewhere, some things work better than others, but both Paul and Harden do enough different things that they can adjust pretty considerably. 

             

            Defensively is where it's really hard to get away with not having some things.



            #11 John P

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              Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:10 AM



              To optimize Paul and Harden's strengths they both need the ball...just like Lin and Harden together. I would rather sign a more complimentary player at PF and fill a real need than double down on a second offensive ball dominanting PG/SG. Use the extra saved money that CP3 would demand and sign a millsap and/or have a stronger bench.



              #12 2016Champions

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              Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:22 AM

              Cp3 might not be the ideal fit next to Harden, but how do you say no to signing Cp3 if you have the chance? We're talking about a top 5 player here..


              Don't be too quick to assume you're right and the experts are wrong. 

               

              "A fool who recognizes his own ignorance is thereby in fact a wise man, but a fool who considers himself wise -- that is what one really calls a fool." ~Gautama Buddha


              #13 timetodienow1234567

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              Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:27 AM

              I grew up watching Stockton/Nash, but I do like CP3, but ever since his knee injury he hasn't been as explosive. I would rather have Harden play off the ball more but I'm not sure if his ego would allow that.

              Why so Serious? :D


              #14 2016Champions

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              Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:29 AM

              I know Magic/Stockton/Isiah/Nash/Iverson/Kidd/Payton were all fantastic players in their time, so I don't want to say anything that will take anything away from that. I will just say I like Chris Paul ALOT. 


              Don't be too quick to assume you're right and the experts are wrong. 

               

              "A fool who recognizes his own ignorance is thereby in fact a wise man, but a fool who considers himself wise -- that is what one really calls a fool." ~Gautama Buddha


              #15 rocketrick

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                Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:47 AM

                I grew up watching Stockton/Nash, but I do like CP3, but ever since his knee injury he hasn't been as explosive. I would rather have Harden play off the ball more but I'm not sure if his ego would allow that.

                I don't really believe it has anything to do with ego. Instead, I believe Harden is simply a much more effective player and playmaker with the ball in his hands. He proved that in OKC and he is proving that in Houston after his 1st season as a starter on a playoff team.

                Signing both Harden and Paul will, at times, relegate one to become a perimeter shooter.

                Don't forget, the Rockets also have 2 other capable playmakers in Jeremy Lin and Chandler Parsons. It becomes more and more difficult to maximize efficiency the more players on the court that share the same strengths.

                #16 rocketrick

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                  Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:48 AM

                  If Doc Rivers ends up being the Clippers coach, why would CP3 want to leave money on the table? Doc Rivers would give the Clippers instant credibility next season.

                  #17 Cooper

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                    Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:01 AM

                    I think the talent out weighs the slight adjustments they could make to fit togther, but all of them would have to want to be here and together. Wade lebron and bosh didnt fit at all their first year toghether and still made the finals, they worked it out bosh and wade changed their games to fit around lebron and they won a title and are in another finals. If they want to be here and win there isn't any reason they couldn't but if not all 3 are committed to playing toghether and making adjustments it could be a big mess. I'd say its worth a shot but do understand if other people had reservations about it.

                    #18 2016Champions

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                    Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:05 AM

                    Even though I think the world of Chris Paul, and I would never say no to signing him if given the chance, I actually agree with the people saying Chris Paul isn't the perfect fit. Millsap would be a perfect fit imo, and we wouldn't even need to do anything crazy to sign him. 


                    Don't be too quick to assume you're right and the experts are wrong. 

                     

                    "A fool who recognizes his own ignorance is thereby in fact a wise man, but a fool who considers himself wise -- that is what one really calls a fool." ~Gautama Buddha


                    #19 feelingsupersonic

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                    Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:58 AM

                    I think this team can absorb one superstar and still grow organically. Saying that if Morey can get Paul that is a no brainer. To me Paul might be the greatest floor general since Magic. I think Harden could adjust for a period. In reality Harden has no ego and to state that he does is to ignore his time in OKC and his willingness to be a bench player. Finally Harden would have some real help in the back court.

                     The 2013 Red94 Fantasy Basketball League Champion


                    #20 RollingWave

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                      Posted 14 June 2013 - 04:02 AM

                      Chris Paul and Harden 's USG this year were both in the 25% range , it's higher than average but it's hardly Melo / Kobe territory, and even Melo ahd JR Smith who also used the ball considerably.

                       

                      Both guys are pretty good catch and shoot guys (granted Paul shot pretty badly this year.), Harden actually developed considerable off the ball skill towards the end of the season for anyone watching. 

                       

                      The one final thing I think people don't realize is that, Harden's got a lot of PG skill.... FOR A SG, that means he's well well below average if he's actually used as a PG, he lead the league in turnover for a reason, and those turnover were also the single biggest killer to our defense last year. it is not truly evident that Harden need the ball more, from an efficiency POV, he may need it less. as noted before by me, the only thing Harden really did better this year relative to last rate wise was assist, and that may simply be a result of the system Houston runs relative to OKC.

                       

                      Paul also does one thing very well that Harden doesn't, running late possessions,  I can easily point out that this team vastly underperformed it's point differential this year (which at worst should have been a 6th seed team. if not a 5th seed.) one major reason is that we don't win close games, and Harden starts almost 95% of the late and close possessions, you do the math.

                       

                      The thing with Chris Paul is that he has amazing assist to turn over ratio, he'll instantly cut down the team's turnover by a mile by taking away possession from Lin / Harden / Beverly . Harden may score less but he'll almost certainly do it at a much better rate.

                       

                      The real worry of Paul remains health, he's had knee trouble, and the history of undersized guards and longevity is pretty scary to say the least.






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