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An exploration of the scenario involving both Chris Paul and Dwight Howard

Last Sunday, the Chronicle reported that the Rockets were diligently making preparations for a pursuit of Clippers star point guard Chris Paul.  The report wasn’t much of a surprise as the topic is one which has been widely discussed dating back to early last season.  If the Rockets can’t get Howard, they’ll naturally want to be ready for the other big star on the market.  Many have wondered, however, about the dream scenario pitting both Paul and Howard on the Rockets and its feasibility.  Could it be done?

The biggest obstacle–aside from even getting these guys to commit–is that it almost certainly would require a sign&trade with either the Clippers or Lakers.  This is because unless either or both of the stars agreed to discounts, it just wouldn’t be feasible to create the amount of cap room to sign both players to their full max, outright.  For instance, because the cap figure came in at $58.5million (rather than the $60million many had been expecting), to even fit in Howard’s $20.5million max within existent cap room would require either (of the most favorable scenarios not involving Motiejunas/Jones) a) trading Thomas Robinson for essentially nothing along with paying a team to take on Royce White or b) trading Thomas Robinson and Greg Smith and waiving Royce White via the stretch provision.

Morey would then need to give away Asik and Lin for free (a combined $16.7million) and then, even after trading away one of Terrence Jones or Motiejunas for free, factoring in roster charges, could still only offer Chris Paul $17.2million.  Paul’s max is $18.7million.  You’re then looking at needing to deal away the other of Motiejunas/Jones, along with Beverley, to even approach that figure, assuming he’d budge.  Considering you’d need to give away your entire team for free (or future considerations), in separate deals, it’s just not entirely realistic.  (While those deals would leave the Rockets in the $18.7million range, that figure would be reduced by outstanding roster charges.) This is not even mentioning the critical fact that I don’t think it would be possible to give away Jeremy Lin’s $8.3million contract without taking back incoming salary.*

The more plausible scenario would be the one that saw the team signing one of the two free agents outright and then trading Asik and Lin in a sign&trade for the other.  The sign&trade scenario is more doable because, due to the rules, outgoing and incoming salary does not need to be matched dollar for dollar, but rather only need be within 125% (or 150% for non-tax paying teams).  The Rockets wouldn’t need to gut the entire team to get Paul his money.

The problem here, as I noted above, is getting one of the Los Angeles teams to agree to help.  Let’s assume the Rockets signed Paul outright with their cap space.  While some have argued that Lin and Asik would help the Lakers rebuild, I just don’t see it that way.  If I’m Mitch Kupchak, and I’m losing Howard, I’d rather start fresh in free agency next season rather than saddle myself with $17million incoming.  I’d almost go so far as to say that the Laker scenario has no chance of happening.

Your better bet is the opposite case: signing Howard outright and dangling Lin and Asik to the Clippers.  I suppose one can envision the Clippers taking the two Rockets and then, with DeAndre Jordan and Eric Bledsoe, sorting their roster out on the trade market.  But with Donald Sterling’s documented frugality, I don’t know if it is likely.

*[sidenote: Much has been made of Lin's marketability in discussions surrounding the point guard's tradability.  While his presence on the roster surely does open up business ventures independent from the Rockets for owner Les Alexander, keep in mind that actual NBA revenue is shared.  As far as those other ventures, we possibly won't ever be privy to the impact Lin is making upon the owner's bottom line.  For another NBA team, in this discussion, the question becomes whether  those other opportunities justify an $8million roster cost (and expected $15million 'real' cost in 2014) for a mediocre starting point guard.  And yes, Lin is merely mediocre at this point in time.]

To even make the above scenario work, however, one would need to concoct a ‘Prisoner’s Dilemma’, pitting Kupchak against the Clippers.  Why?  Because if one of the stars is signed outright, what motivation would the other star’s current team have in cooperating in a sign&trade and helping Houston set up SuperFriends 2.0?  For example, if the Rockets sign Howard with straight cash, the Clippers can just call Paul’s bluff and refuse to deal – outside of Houston, there wouldn’t be any superior alternatives to Paul than just simply returning to L.A.  If Morey could get a commitment from both players upfront, the two teams would be pitted against one another in a race to at least get back value in Asik and Lin rather than be the team left with nothing.  (This is of course assuming the unlikely scenario that the Lakers would even want Asik and Lin.)

With that said, however, the risky aspect of selling the two players upon a united front is the fear that they’d become enamored only with a ‘Big 3′ rather than just with the Rockets.  If everything fell apart in negotiations, with the other teams refusing to deal, the Rockets would be in danger of losing not just one, but both players.  It’s imperative that Morey sell each player on the merits of playing with Harden in Houston rather than with Harden and one another.

Dwight Howard and Chris Paul may be watching the Finals tonight wondering what it would be like to form their own super-team.  But unless they agree to paycuts, it’s highly unlikely that will happen, at least in Houston.  (While the national media has largely reported that the Hawks too can pair the two players, for detailed reasons requiring another post, this also cannot happen without discounted rates.)

And for Morey, while forming the next Big 3 is certainly enticing, the pitch would be a risky one that could leave the team without either.

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Total comments: 156
  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Parker definitely benefited from his system and environment, but I feel like playing well within a system is an ability that not all players have so Parker should be commended rather than punished for that. Basically he gets alot of off-the-ball screens set for him and he's incredibly good at making his defender look foolish trying to chase him around them.

  • RollingWave says 1 YEAR ago

    Have you heard of Tony Parker?

    You mean the guy who has played with a top 10 all time player (who's a PF/C) his entire career?

    Parker is very good, but in career context he's not half the player Tim Duncan is, Duncan's underratedness can not be over stated.
  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I have a feeling O.J. Mayo will go for $6-8 million. Garcia or Wright can probably be had for the Room Exception ($2.6m/2yrs), and both guys are much more capable defenders with good length capable of playing the 3 and the 2.

    Monta Ellis will go for $10-12m.

  • quatin says 1 YEAR ago

    Mayo is not a draw for Howard though. Signing Ellis might attract Howard to Houston for sure.

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    Garcia yes...not sure about Wright...

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I'd rather have Dorrell Wright or Francisco Garcia than O.J. Mayo.

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    Wow--how do you guys really feel? :lol:

    In all fairness, I think Mayo (as the fifth best payer on the floor) is a quality piece. (presuming we've moved Lin) We're talking Harden, Mayo, Parsons, Howard, Asik. Despite his faults (decision-making, focus, defense) I think he would be a nice contributor to that squad. He shot 40% from 3 last season and should see plenty of open looks in our offense.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    Monta Ellis just opted out of the Bucks for $12 million per year. With CP3 almost certainly staying with the Clippers, perhaps we should talk about signing Ellis and Howard? That's probably a lot easier to fit cap wise and more realistic to happen

    ellis is a cancer in the locker room and on the court. I wouldn't touch him. it's one thing to chase a player who is a prima donna who is a star, but it's entirely a different ballgame to chase a prima donna who can't back up his trash talk with quality play

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I saw that and it is intriguing...I am skeptical as Ellis has been featured in two dynamic scoring combo guard line-ups and the results weren't spectacular. Unless he wants to play 6th man and take a pay cut I'm not sure the Rockets are interested in him. I think we could get OJ Mayo for half the price and end up with the better player.

    Half the price for a slightly inferior player. They both suck.

  • Freebird says 1 YEAR ago

    JG - agreed. We need a PG that's more of an instigator and spot up 3 shooter than a "dynamic scorer". I wasn't impressed with Monta's game in this regard.

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    I saw that and it is intriguing...I am skeptical as Ellis has been featured in two dynamic scoring combo guard line-ups and the results weren't spectacular. Unless he wants to play 6th man and take a pay cut I'm not sure the Rockets are interested in him. I think we could get OJ Mayo for half the price and end up with the better player.

  • quatin says 1 YEAR ago

    Monta Ellis just opted out of the Bucks for $12 million per year. With CP3 almost certainly staying with the Clippers, perhaps we should talk about signing Ellis and Howard? That's probably a lot easier to fit cap wise and more realistic to happen

  • Freebird says 1 YEAR ago

    CP3 just hasn't had the right team, and still doesn't. He's had to carry the load, instead of being the instigator. I think in our case, that may not be the case.

    I understand wanting an AS center, but the difference between Lin -> Paul and Asik-> Howardis too much. I think Asik is a top 10 center right now - and Lin is mediocre, at best. He can learn, yes, but how much time will that take? I'd rather take the AS PG and Asik, thank you very much.

    The other question is what happens if Armageddon happens and we get both. Will Free Agents take the minimum to play with our triumvirate? Something similar to what happened in Miami?

  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago


    Yeah, and as Chris Paul's own career has shown, it's awfully hard for the smallest guy on the court to carry a team far in the post season, even if that smallest guy is damn good.


    Have you heard of Tony Parker?
  • RollingWave says 1 YEAR ago

    If I had to choose between the best center or the best pg to spend my money on, I'd always lean towards the center because of supply and demand for one.

    Yeah, and as Chris Paul's own career has shown, it's awfully hard for the smallest guy on the court to carry a team far in the post season, even if that smallest guy is damn good.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I don't think Dwight cares about all that drama talk as much as people think he does, I honestly think he has wanted to play with Chris Paul for a long time now and he cares more about that than the drama talk.

  • Rockets fan newton says 1 YEAR ago


    I think it's clear the media wants them to play together. problem is the media isn't talking about how much money d-12 must leave on the table to go to the clippers.............he can make that money up in texas, but not in LA. at the end of the day money talks. d-12 may be willing to leave a little on the table, but not the amount he would have to in order to play for the clippers, all the while cp3 is getting maxed out. ain't gonna happen


    I'm with u man..this sounds like what Chris Paul wants..and i still think Lin harden parsons and Asik is a much better team then what the clippers are going to get..I really don't think Howard wants to deal with playing in the same gym..listening to the same media bash him for switching sides..if he leaves he is going to want to LEAVE
  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    I think it's clear the media wants them to play together. problem is the media isn't talking about how much money d-12 must leave on the table to go to the clippers.............he can make that money up in texas, but not in LA. at the end of the day money talks. d-12 may be willing to leave a little on the table, but not the amount he would have toin order toplay for the clippers, all the while cp3 is getting maxed out. ain't gonna happen

  • Rockets fan newton says 1 YEAR ago It's clear Paul and Dwigjt want to play together..I really believe we have given into this while clipper thing to much..media has gotten a wisper of something and ran crazy with it plenty if times..I just don't see the lakers wanting all that money on their books..and harden is a much better option as a third player then Garnet hands down..if they really want to play together Houston is the best option for that to happen..I know it wouldn't be that hard to make it happen..there are plenty of teams we could load Lin and Asik off if no one wanted them in a s&t..if we get them to commit early enough we will have plenty of time to make room for them
  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    If I had to choose between the best center or the best pg to spend my money on, I'd always lean towards the center because of supply and demand for one.

    Got to agree with this point of view

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    If I had to choose between the best center or the best pg to spend my money on, I'd always lean towards the center because of supply and demand for one.

  • Freebird says 1 YEAR ago

    Why would the Celtics want Bledsoe? To back up Rondo and Avery? Unless they plan to package one of those guys, I can't see them insisting on Bledsoe, of all people.

    I could see the Clips trying to S&T for D12, but Sterling will find a way to eff it up. He always has - no reason to change his tune now.

    What's the best case scenario for the Lakers? Cause Jimmy will go in the opposite direction, it seems. Keeping all their high priced older gents and hoping LeBron shows up next year - that's laughable. They have to amnesty Kobe or Gasol to even come close to staying relevant in the short term, and possibly longer. While LA still has more Hollywood to it, the whole "We're a bigger market" doesn't hold as much weight anymore. The interwebs has proven that. You can find the same $$$ for advertising locally in almost all of the markets except the extremely small (say, Milwaukee) or the extremely large (NY). Houston has too many in-roads to the orient to NOT be making money there.

    Methinks Atlanta has more of a shot than most folks think, but at the end of the day, Houston has too much talent to offer.

    I prefer Chris Paul,

    But a big man is nice too.

    So maybe D12?

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    If holding on to Bledsoe means potentially getting a deal done with the Lakers to acquire Howard, then that's probably the Clippers' first priority. Any business with the Celts is probably secondary to getting Howard.

    While Bledsoe is a bit on the shorter end for PGs, he's muscular and stocky and an explosive athlete (he's been called "Mini-Lebron" by some in the media). He could handle the rigors of a full NBA season, something I doubt Beverley could do because of his thin frame.

    To add to this, he's short but he has a wingspan of 6'7.5" and he's super athletic. I think he can even guard certain shooting guards.

  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago The coach is first.
  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago

    If holding on to Bledsoe means potentially getting a deal done with the Lakers to acquire Howard, then that's probably the Clippers' first priority. Any business with the Celts is probably secondary to getting Howard.

    While Bledsoe is a bit on the shorter end for PGs, he's muscular and stocky and an explosive athlete (he's been called "Mini-Lebron" by some in the media). He could handle the rigors of a full NBA season, something I doubt Beverley could do because of his thin frame.

  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago The whole Boston trade will not go down without Eric Bledsoe going to Boston. Ainge won't give away Garnett. Bledsoe is the piece Boston wants in the deal. Jordan is only there to match money.
  • RollingWave says 1 YEAR ago

    or of course, the whole two of them want to play together is either..

    1. bullock

    or

    2. they're going back home to Atlanta anyway.

    These speculation are pretty pointless though. if it happens it happens. these things are mostly outside of the Rocket's ability to control. the biggest reason why the Lakers won't do this with the Clippers is because they play in the same freaking arena, the Clippers have already gained a little on them in recent years, if they end up losing the big brother status (however unlikely that seems) it'll hurt way more than anything that could possibly happen on the court.

    Bledsoe is interesting though, in the same argument I made against Patrick Beverly on not being an acceptable starting PG on most team, applied to Bledsoe he came out pretty well. he gets to the rim reasonably well (41% of the time vs Lin's 33%, though his FG% wise Lin wins considierably in those plays, 63% vs 58%), and create his own shot well, he turns it over a bunch just like Lin / Beverly though, but that's true for most younger PG. his assist to tov ration is a bit worse than Lin but he does make up for it with better defense . he doesn't appear to run the fast break quite as well but that may be more of a system thing.

    There is one covet that I'm not entirely sold on him , which is his sample size of 3s, he shot nearly 40% from 3 this year which is great... except that he shot 1 per game, the sample size of which is a it worrisome when you consider that he should around 25% from 3 in his first 150 ish NBA 3s (which is obviously horrific) but then shot 40% in his last 70, legit improvement? random variation? or most likely a little bit of both? I'm going to hazard a guess that if he can legitimately shoot 40% he'd take a lot more 3s than he did. but it's hard to just luck your way to 40% if your real talent level reamains at 25% ish.

    He could plausibly start assuming most of those things carry over, in the short term he's an averagish PG at least on the offensive end, potentially a bit worse, but would hopefully be good enough defensively to make up for it. though the one last danger is that he's 6'1 190, so he's on the smaller end of PGs, there's always some worry on smaller energy player on how they translate to bigger minutes . but skill wise it's at least worth a serious look.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I don't think salary is an issue, they have Chris Paul's bird rights, and any trade that the Clippers make with the Celtics has to salary match within 125%. According to my calculations, the Clippers can do a S&T for Dwight after signing Paul and still land under the apron which makes the trade perfectly legal.

    Regardless, if the Clippers really are trying to convince Chris Paul to resign by promising to trade for Dwight (that's my guess), then obviously they wouldn't agree to a trade that jeopardizes that.

  • Dan G says 1 YEAR ago

    I disagree that it would almost assure us of getting Howard. If my suspicions are correct, Chris Paul is trying to lure Dwight Howard to the Clippers, and Dwight's agent is pushing Dwight in that direction too. Trading Garnett for DeAndre Jordan would make the Clippers and even more desirable to Dwight.

    Rumor is that Dwight and Paul are talking on the phone everyday trying to figure out a way to unite, and Clippers are willing to offer Blake and Bledsoe for Dwight if that's what it takes Chris Paul to resign, but Lakers have been completely closed off to any offers for Dwight (I bet they change their tune once it gets closer to July 1st and Dwight meets with the Houston Rockets).

    We shall see what happens by Tuesday or Wednesday, but that ESPN report also says the Celtics want the Clippers to either take Jason Terry or Courtney Lee in the deal, and that if a deal gets done, the Clippers would pursue Paul Pierce. Leaving Pierce out of the equation and let's just say Bledsoe will not get traded to the Celtics (which I have a hunch he will not be), if Bledsoe isn't in the deal I can assure you Terry or Lee will be and then I just don't see how the Clippers will have enough money to sign Paul and trade for Howard. Hence, why I think Howard will have a better chance to be a Rocket if that Clippers/Celtics deal gets done.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I disagree that it would almost assure us of getting Howard. If my suspicions are correct, Chris Paul is trying to lure Dwight Howard to the Clippers, and Dwight's agent is pushing Dwight in that direction too. Trading Garnett for DeAndre Jordan would make the Clippers and even more desirable to Dwight.

    Rumor is that Dwight and Paul are talking on the phone everyday trying to figure out a way to unite, and Clippers are willing to offer Blake and Bledsoe for Dwight if that's what it takes Chris Paul to resign, but Lakers have been completely closed off to any offers for Dwight (I bet they change their tune once it gets closer to July 1st and Dwight meets with the Houston Rockets).

  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago It's not just Garnett that's going. It Doc Rivers as well.
  • Dan G says 1 YEAR ago

    Danny Ainge seems to think a 37 year old is worth DeAndre Jordan, 2 picks including a 1st, and Eric Bledsoe.

    Good luck with that. .

    Indeed. Talk about win now mentality. Even win now mentalities usually have a two or three year window. Doing that trade with Boston would only give them a chance for next year and MAYBE the year after that. I like Doc Rivers but overall I would love for that trade to happen as it would almost assure us of getting Howard.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Bledsoe is going to Boston for Doc Rivers.

    Danny Ainge seems to think a 37 year old is worth DeAndre Jordan, 2 picks including a 1st, and Eric Bledsoe.

    Good luck with that. .

  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago Bledsoe is going to Boston for Doc Rivers.
  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago Totally agree on all points, 2016Champs.

    We also have to remember that the Clips are still owned by Donald Sterling. Karma alone virtually guarantees multiple 1st and 2nd round exits for the Clippers.
  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    These are the Lakers optinos imo: Let Dwight walk via FA, do the S&T with the Clippers, or do the S&T with the Rockets.

    I see the Lakers doing the S&T with the Clippers because:

    1. If they don't, Dwight will leave for Houston via FA anyway.
    2. They get Blake and Bledsoe which is much, MUCH, better than nothing.
    3. They get Blake and Bledsoe which is better than Asik and Lin.
    4. Dwight in Houston is a much bigger conference threat than Dwight with the Clippers, simply because the Clippers will have an inferior supporting cast to the Rockets.

    Right know Lakers are just putting a tough guy act on, they're so used to being in the driver seat that they don't even want to admit the position they're in. It's only a matter of time before it becomes a certainty that Dwight will leave via FA, and when that moment comes the Lakers will have to admit that a S&T with the Clippers is their best option.

  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago What I gather from that Stein article is that Howard's first preference is to remain in the LA market. While his interest in Houston is probably genuine, I don't think it's any higher on his list than any other scenario that's been presented through media to this point, save for ending up in Atlanta (I don't believe and had any true interest in being there under any circumstance).

    As far as the Lakers being fundamentally against strengthening anyone in their division, much less the Clips, I agree with Stein's sentiment that this is probably overblown. A team of Paul and Howard alone doesn't guarantee the Clips anything outside of a nice regular season record. As great as Paul is, his teams have never advanced past the Western Conference semis, & he's been a part of some very talented teams in New Orleans (David West in his prime and Tyson Chandler patrolling the middle) and LA. Now if the Clips manage to get KG, Pierce and Doc Rivers, that might put them over the top.

    Any competitive elevation above the Lakers would be two years at the most; by that time the Lakers will be out from under the contracts of Kobe, Gasol and Artest and will have Griffin and possibly Bledsoe as rebuilding pieces.
  • LMAOwais says 1 YEAR ago

    Animosity between Clippers/Lakers aside, you'd think propping a division rival would be reason enough for Lakers to avoid any S&T with Clippers. I mean the Pacific division is kinda top heavy with the Warriors joining the competitive fold. I imagine it'd only make sense if they believe they're guaranteed to be building a better team, which IMO can only really be via LeBron in FA. And thats a pretty big gamble, this early.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    l• The threat of the James Harden-led Rockets signing Howard away from L.A. is very real to the Lakers, sources said, which means the Lakers will eventually be getting a sign-and-trade pitch from Houston as well. The Rockets will have the cap space to sign Howard outright after the expected shedding of Thomas Robinson's contract, but sources say that the Rockets will certainly attempt to convince the Lakers to take in return Omer Asik and Jeremy Lin in a sign-and-trade deal for Howard, thus theoretically keeping alive the possibility that Houston could preserve its cap space to pursue Chris Paul and possibly pair Howard with Paul.

    • Asikisa quality defensive anchor at roughly half Howard's price. And Lin had the greatest success of his career under Lakers coach Mike D'Antoni. But sources maintain that the Lakers' main priority this offseason -- besides re-signing Howard -- is getting their financial house in order. Which is why the overriding expectation persists that L.A. will rebuff sign-and-trade proposals to simply bank the cap space for the summer of 2014 if Howard bolts.

    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/59783/latest-on-what-lakers-will-do-with-dwight

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    In my mind, being the sum of all parts would mean no one takes a statistical hit. The first year all 3 Heatles (what I call Miami's trio) took a huge statistical hit, and since then Wade and Lebron have learned to work together while Bosh took a back-seat.

    With the Rocketeers (my name for our potential trio) I think no one takes a statistical hit, maybe Paul and Harden will take a year but they'll eventually figure it out like Lebron and Wade then, and Dwight will get 10-12 shots per game like he always has. I wouldn't be surprised if Dwight shoots like 70% from the field because almost everything will be a pick and roll dunk (he shot 80% on pick and rolls this season according to Sports Synergy).

    If you want to define it that way that's fine; however, in everyday jargon it's meaning is more like this:

    "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. (attributed to Aristotle)

    It means that when you add together all of the parts that make a thing,
    it is greater than it seems like it should be. Like teamwork. People
    working together are routinely able to do more work than if their
    individual efforts were added together."

    It has little to do with looking at the individual aspects of the whole once you have put the pieces together. Rather, it focuses on the fact that something great is happening from the newly joined pieces.

    Back on topic--I saw that report about Pierce and Garnett...that's very interesting. Paul, Crawford, Pierce, Griffin, Garnett--Pretty solid group there. Plus Garnett might turn Griffin into a beast if he develops some of Garnett's nasty edge.

  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago The rumor mill concerning Howard and his future destination has been more labile than, well, Howard himself. First Howard is intrigued with the young talent of Houston and playing along side of Asik (not to mention the massive Texas state income tax break).

    Next, not only will Houston try to lure Howard, but his little buddy Chris Paul as well! Oh wait, that sneaky snook Atlanta is trying to get in on that action since they have all of that yummy cap space to max out both players.

    Now it's Paul staying with the Clips, all the while orchestrating a seismic trade in the Staples Center, which will result in Howard in a Clips jersey, while Paul's mortal enemy Blake Griffin puts on the purple and gold! And oh wait?! Is that KG, Paul Pierce AND Doc Rivers coming to work too for that swell guy Don Sterling?

    My head is spinning. I fully expect none of the aforementioned rumors to come to fruition come July 2nd. I do expect Howard and Lin to join forces...with the Shanghai Sharks in the China Basketball Association.

    "I wanted to expand my global brand," said Howard, "and what better way to do that than to ride the coattails of Jeremy Lin in China? 1.4 Billion people, son!!! Plus Yao Ming promised to teach me how to shoot free throws and not be such a mental midget when it comes to like, you know, stuff."
  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    In my mind, being the sum of all parts would mean no one takes a statistical hit. The first year all 3 Heatles (what I call Miami's trio) took a huge statistical hit, and since then Wade and Lebron have learned to work together while Bosh took a back-seat.

    With the Rocketeers (my name for our potential trio) I think no one takes a statistical hit, maybe Paul and Harden will take a year but they'll eventually figure it out like Lebron and Wade then, and Dwight will get 10-12 shots per game like he always has. I wouldn't be surprised if Dwight shoots like 70% from the field because almost everything will be a pick and roll dunk (he shot 80% on pick and rolls this season according to Sports Synergy).

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    I think you may be unclear on the "greater than the sum of it's parts" meaning. Miami is dominating for this very reason. San Antonio can hang with them for this very reason. Atlanta is a great example of a team that was not greater than the sum of its parts. The Lakers and Brooklyn Nets too. I think Denver, Chicago and Memphis were able to get more out of less.

    Your point about the pick n rolls with Howard, Harden, and Paul rings true--they should all actually benefit from playing together and wind up greater than the sum of its parts! If Harden was 6th running with Asik/Greg Smith then he will be better with Howard.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    We could just run plays like this all day long, only difference is that Dwight sets better screens:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TuZU47CKmPk

  • Cooper says 1 YEAR ago 3rd option sounds worse than it is,Dwight would have his chances he'd still easily average 16-18pts.
  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    According to the offensive efficiency stats at Sports Synergy, Dwight ranks 9th as the pick and roll man, Harden ranks 5th as the pick and roll handler, and Chris Paul ranks 6th as the pick and roll handler.

    Running misdirection pick and rolls with that trio would be devastating. With a good offense and good coaching, we could be alot closer to the sum of all parts than you think.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    Bosh's game doesn't thrive as the third option and that's why Miami's trio is so far from being the sum of all parts (and yet they dominate). As for Dwight, I actually love the idea of Dwight being a third option. I have no doubt in my mind that Dwight is a better third option than Bosh is (so theoretically there would be less give in our trio).

    D-12 3rd option?..........I don't we can get him here with that pitch :lol:

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    It's true, but isn't it fair to say that Bosh has had to re-create himself as a stretch 5. In Toronto he did more work around the basket, but in Miami, they prefer he clear out for Wade and Lebron and wait for kick out passes and then knock down the long 2. While his usage rate is still up there, it has dipped a little since joining the Heat. He may be one of those players that needs to "get in a rhythm" in order to be more effective and when you're 3rd on the list (sometimes lower) it's hard to maintain that rhythm. I'd say his numbers are pretty solid given his role in the offense.

    That being said, I agree that it would be great to see him step up and seize that #2 role from Wade since he appears hampered by injury. A steady dose of Lebron/Bosh pick n rolls sounds lethal.

    Bosh's game doesn't thrive as the third option and that's why Miami's trio is so far from being the sum of all parts (and yet they dominate). As for Dwight, I actually love the idea of Dwight being a third option. I have no doubt in my mind that Dwight is a better third option than Bosh is (so theoretically there would be less give in our trio).

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    It's true, but isn't it fair to say that Bosh has had to re-create himself as a stretch 5. In Toronto he did more work around the basket, but in Miami, they prefer he clear out for Wade and Lebron and wait for kick out passes and then knock down the long 2. While his usage rate is still up there, it has dipped a little since joining the Heat. He may be one of those players that needs to "get in a rhythm" in order to be more effective and when you're 3rd on the list (sometimes lower) it's hard to maintain that rhythm. I'd say his numbers are pretty solid given his role in the offense.

    That being said, I agree that it would be great to see him step up and seize that #2 role from Wade since he appears hampered by injury. A steady dose of Lebron/Bosh pick n rolls sounds lethal.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    More than just a while, it has been 3 years. He averaged 24 and 11 his last year in Toronto, but he has never averaged more than 18.7 points and 8.3 rebounds in Miami.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    I disagree, I think someone can easily make an argument that Chris Bosh doesn't have the same impact in Miami that he had in Toronto.

    just because he doesn't have the same impact doesn't mean he couldn't.....Miami has been waiting for him to step up for awhile now

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Even if we Morey preferred a big 2 over a big 3 (I doubt it), Dwight might be hell bent on playing with Chris Paul. It's possible that Dwight Howard might choose a sign and trade with the Clippers over signing with Houston if Houston can't make room for Paul. Ofcourse, this is just speculation on my part.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I disagree, I think someone can easily make an argument that Chris Bosh doesn't have the same impact in Miami that he had in Toronto.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    I suppose it depends on the amount of talent you have. With 3 superstars on one team I don't think it's possible.

    that's not an argument you can win in miami

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I suppose it depends on the amount of talent you have. With 3 superstars on one team I don't think it's possible.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    The whole is never greater than the sum of its parts in basketball, there is always some give. However, I think there would be less give in a Paul/Dwight/Harden trio than there is in the Lebron/Wade/Bosh trio.

    I disagree...........what do you think chemistry is ? it's when the whole is greater than it's parts.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    The whole is never greater than the sum of its parts in basketball, there is always some give. However, I think there would be less give in a Paul/Dwight/Harden trio than there is in the Lebron/Wade/Bosh trio.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    Well, after all this deliberation doesn't it seem to make sense to go after one and not both--and by one I mean Howard. I just don't believe the whole will be greater than the sum of its parts once the dust settles if we do what is necessary to bring in both Paul and Howard vs. just Howard. If that means no Howard or Paul then so be it. I still think we're better off going a different route altogether vs. emptying the cupboard.

    while I wouldn't turn cp3 down if he really wanted to come here, for the over all sustainability and maintainability of the team I have to agree with you JG. sometimes to much of a good thing ......is a bad thing

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    Well, after all this deliberation doesn't it seem to make sense to go after one and not both--and by one I mean Howard. I just don't believe the whole will be greater than the sum of its parts once the dust settles if we do what is necessary to bring in both Paul and Howard vs. just Howard. If that means no Howard or Paul then so be it. I still think we're better off going a different route altogether vs. emptying the cupboard.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    I can't believe we only got two snowballs, despite the amount of moves we would need to make, we would clearly have the best supporting cast...

    I tend to agree with you on that assessment

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I can't believe we only got two snowballs, despite the amount of moves we would need to make, we would clearly have the best supporting cast...

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Here are the possibilities for CP3 and Howard to play on same team:

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9386902/where-dwight-howard-chris-paul-team-up?src=mobile

    One good superteam deserves another. In the hours after the Miami Heat moved a step closer toward potentially winning their second championship with LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh, our Chris Broussard reported that free agents-to-be Dwight Howard and Chris Paul have been texting about teaming up.

    Can they do it? If so, where?

    Let's take a look at what the NBA's collective bargaining agreement says about their options, rating each potential spot on a scale of zero to four snowballs -- as in their snowball's chances in, well, you know.

    Los Angeles Lakers: Zero snowballs

    To even join the conversation, the Lakers would have to use their amnesty provision to waive Kobe Bryant. That would put them close enough to the luxury-tax threshold that they could potentially complete a sign-and-trade for Paul, assuming the Clippers were willing to do them the favor of taking Pau Gasol and other spare parts in return. Before even getting into the political complications of the L.A. rivals trading with each other, basketball reasons alone mean there's no workable trade that would land Paul on the Lakers.

    Dallas Mavericks: One snowball

    Dallas is a year too early. If Howard and Paul were for some reason to sign one-year contracts with their current teams, the Mavericks could be a player for both next year, when Dirk Nowitzki has vowed to take a pay cut in order to create more room under the salary cap. For now, however, Nowitzki's $22.7 million salary for 2013-14 makes it difficult for Dallas to find space for one of Howard and Paul (as Insider's Larry Coon broke down here), let alone both. Even if the Mavericks traded everyone else, the most they could offer the two free agents is about $15 million apiece -- far less than their maximum salaries ($20.5 million for Howard, $18.7 million for Paul).

    Houston Rockets: Two snowballs

    Here's how this could work. First, Rockets GM Daryl Morey must find a taker in his current quest to trade forward Thomas Robinson to clear cap space. Then, by turning down Francisco Garcia's team option and waiving a handful of players with non-guaranteed contracts (James Anderson, Aaron Brooks, Carlos Delfino and Tim Ohlbrecht), the Rockets would have enough space to sign Paul outright.

    Next comes the challenging step. To get Howard, too, Houston would have to convince the Lakers to agree to a sign-and-trade built around a package of Omer Asik and Jeremy Lin, along with their young forwards (Terrence Jones and Donatas Motiejunas). Asik and Lin could both be useful to the post-Howard Lakers, but they would cut into the team's cap space in the summer of 2014, making such a deal unlikely.

    Alternatively, the Rockets could sign both Howard and Paul outright while keeping James Harden, but that would require finding takers for Asik, Lin and all other guaranteed contracts (including Royce White) without taking on salary in return, and waiving everyone non-guaranteed (including the useful Patrick Beverley and Greg Smith) except Chandler Parsons.

    Detroit Pistons: Two snowballs

    The Pistons are the distant wild card in these proceedings. If Detroit waives Rodney Stuckey, whose contract is guaranteed for $4 million next season, and uses the amnesty provision on Charlie Villanueva, the Pistons would not have anyone making more than $5 million on the roster next season. They'd need to cut about $6 million in salary, which they could accomplish by packaging Brandon Knight with forward Jonas Jerebko (two years left on his deal at $4.5 million apiece) to a team under the cap or with a trade exception. Alternatively, Detroit could trade the No. 8 pick and convince Paul and Howard to take a couple hundred thousand less than the max apiece.

    By doing so, Paul and Howard would join a Pistons team that still has quality young talent. Greg Monroe could work next to Howard If he develops a midrange game, and Detroit would have promising second-year center Andre Drummond as either part of the world's most talented center rotation or trade bait to improve the wings. Nonetheless, it's hard to see Detroit, hardly a destination for NBA players, forming the next superteam. Their sights are set much lower in free agency.

    Los Angeles Clippers: Three snowballs

    Broussard's sources indicate that teaming up for the Clippers is the preferred option for Howard and Paul. In this case, the mechanics aren't as important as the question of whether the Clippers' organization wants to team Howard and Paul if it means giving up Blake Griffin. A Howard-Paul combination stands the chance of being much more effective defensively, especially if the Clippers choose a defense-minded coach to replace Vinny Del Negro. However, trading the younger Griffin for the older Howard would mean shortening the Clippers' window to some extent, and the lingering effect of Howard's back surgery also makes such a trade risky.

    Atlanta Hawks: Four snowballs

    The Hawks have always been the team best positioned to offer Howard and Paul the chance to play together. The Hawks have only three players under guaranteed contracts for next season -- Al Horford, John Jenkins and Lou Williams.

    Still, to clear enough room to sign both Howard and Paul to the max, Atlanta would have to trade Williams and either Jenkins or one of this year's two first-round picks without taking back any salary. The team could use the pick as a carrot to get a team under the cap or with a trade exception to take on Williams, whose contract is reasonable despite the ACL injury that ended his 2012-13 campaign.

    Oh, and forget about reuniting Howard with former AAU teammate Josh Smith. The Hawks would have to renounce the rights to Smith and point guard Jeff Teague in order to make this all work. So Atlanta's cupboard would be nearly completely bare -- Horford, Howard, Paul and Jenkins along with one of the first-round picks and whatever free agents the team could sign using the "room exception" ($2.65 million, which could be split up) and the minimum salary. But Howard and Paul would be together -- and Atlanta is far and away the most realistic situation for making that happen.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    That's ok. I was just wondering how those holds affected the Lakers/Clippers' abilities to do sign + trades.

    as I have been trying to tell 2016........the lakers and clipper can do a sign and trade, but it would be so difficult that it's next to impossible

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    That's ok. I was just wondering how those holds affected the Lakers/Clippers' abilities to do sign + trades.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    Going back to the topic, obviously it's unlikely, but it's not impossible. If Cp3 and Dwight REALLY want to form a super team in Houston, then Morey will do whatever it takes to make it happen.

    Here are the max contract scenarios:http://www.hoopsrumo...ree-agents.html

    As you can see, Dwight's max is exactly $20,513,178 and Chris Paul's max is $18,668,431 which, both players max combines to $39,181,609.

    Just so everyone has an understanding of how Houston's salary cap situation is, take a look here:http://www.shamsport...teams-will.html

    So basically, by getting rid of all un-guaranteed contracts except Patrick Beverley and Greg Smith,Houston have $16,181,453 in cap spaceassuming a $58.5 million salary cap.

    Now, if Houston package Royce White (fingers crossed) with Thomas Robinson and take back no salary in return, that boosts the cap room to $21,427,373 (which accounts the cap holds) which is more than enough to sign Dwight ($20.5 million).

    Now, if Houston trade Asik and Lin and take no salary back in return, that boosts the cap room to $38,176,665 (which accounts for cap holds) which would be enough to sign both Dwight Howard and Chris Paul if both players agree to taking a discount of $1 million (it's possible).

    If all this goes down, Houston's entire roster would look something like this:

    1. Dwight Howard: $19,513,178
    2. Chris Paul: $17,668,431
    3. James Harden: $13,668,750 (at the moment; as a designated maximum salary contract, it is to be adjusted when new max salaries are known post-moratorium)
    4. Terrence Jones: $1,551,840
    5. Donatas Motiejunas: $1,422,720
    6. Chandler Parsons: $926,500
    7. Greg Smith: $884,293
    8. Patrick Beverley: $788,872
    9. Roster charge: $490,180
    10. Roster charge: $490,180
    11. Roster charge: $490,180
    12. Roster charge: $490,180

    Total = 58,404,265

    And then Houston still have the Room Exception ($2.65 million, 2 years max) which they can use to bring back Francisco Garcia or spend on someone else, plus the vet minimum.

    yea yea yea .......I broke this stuff down yesterday..........got something new for us

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    @JG

    from what I can make of the article you posted all cap holds are not equal. ........depending on a players time in the league and what type of rights the team had on a player makes the cap hold amount smaller or greater. that amount will eats into the teams cap room each year, but won't count in the teams salary. that cap hold has no bearing on any thing except in the area of signing more players under contract. which is why some teams who have been over the cap for years had not yet renounced some of the cap holds. they didn't have any room under the cap so their was no need to renounce these holds. I think I understand what the article is saying......if you need better explanation....let me know and I will try to break it down a little further

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Not meaning to be a jerk, but Weiner's Twitter page lists a self-reference as an "amateur capologist"--not an expert.

    Like you said, that's a self-reference. He appears on Rocketscast Live among other places specifically because others consider him an expert on the CBA in comparison to the average amateur. See for yourself:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuhrYsTjyNo

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Going back to the topic, obviously it's unlikely, but it's not impossible. If Cp3 and Dwight REALLY want to form a super team in Houston, then Morey will do whatever it takes to make it happen.

    Here are the max contract scenarios:http://www.hoopsrumo...ree-agents.html

    As you can see, Dwight's max is exactly $20,513,178 and Chris Paul's max is $18,668,431 which, both players max combines to $39,181,609.

    Just so everyone has an understanding of how Houston's salary cap situation is, take a look here:http://www.shamsport...teams-will.html

    So basically, by getting rid of all un-guaranteed contracts except Patrick Beverley and Greg Smith,Houston have $16,181,453 in cap spaceassuming a $58.5 million salary cap.

    Now, if Houston package Royce White (fingers crossed) with Thomas Robinson and take back no salary in return, that boosts the cap room to $21,427,373 (which accounts the cap holds) which is more than enough to sign Dwight ($20.5 million).

    Now, if Houston trade Asik and Lin and take no salary back in return, that boosts the cap room to $38,176,665 (which accounts for cap holds) which would be enough to sign both Dwight Howard and Chris Paul if both players agree to taking a discount of $1 million (it's possible).

    If all this goes down, Houston's entire roster would look something like this:

    1. Dwight Howard: $19,513,178
    2. Chris Paul: $17,668,431
    3. James Harden: $13,668,750 (at the moment; as a designated maximum salary contract, it is to be adjusted when new max salaries are known post-moratorium)
    4. Terrence Jones: $1,551,840
    5. Donatas Motiejunas: $1,422,720
    6. Chandler Parsons: $926,500
    7. Greg Smith: $884,293
    8. Patrick Beverley: $788,872
    9. Roster charge: $490,180
    10. Roster charge: $490,180
    11. Roster charge: $490,180
    12. Roster charge: $490,180

    Total = 58,404,265

    And then Houston still have the Room Exception ($2.65 million, 2 years max) which they can use to bring back Francisco Garcia or spend on someone else, plus the vet minimum.

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    Idk why I keep trying but I promise this is the last time. In those rules you just posted, these are the exact words:

    The distinction, looking at what Larry Coon has written there, is the difference between when he writes "a player" vs "the player" for example, when he writes "Starting in 2013-14, the team cannot receive a player in a sign and trade if they have used the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception" it means they can't receive anyone. In the other case, it means they can't be receiving the one who was signed and traded.

    And as you can see in my previous post, I've had this confirmed by an expert (David Weiner).

    Not meaning to be a jerk, but Weiner's Twitter page lists a self-reference as an "amateur capologist"--not an expert.

    So, I am trying to understand this stuff as best I can...just spent 20 minutes reading and re-reading this stuff. Can somebody make sense of it--from what I can tell this spells doom for the Lakers/Clippers, but I'm sure there is something I am missing.

    Here is the link to teams' cap space situations

    Here is the detailed LA Lakers cap space page

    Here is the LA Clippers cap space page

    And here is where I am getting a little confused: the page about cap holds and how they work to constrain the salary cap (Scroll down past all the teams listed and read the description there)

    Can someone make sense of this? It appears that not all "cap holds" are created equal and that the Lakers/Clippers may have problems with theirs...I have no idea.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    @2016

    believe what you want to.....my last post was for the benefit of those who won't ignore the facts. just because you choose to be mislead doesn't mean all of us should be in the dark on this subject.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    @2016

    I gave you the answer in black and white and you still ignore the facts...........for those who are confused......both teams must be under the tax apron at the conclusion of the trade.......don't take my word for it look for yourself http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

    question # 89 is the answer to this

    Idk why I keep trying but I promise this is the last time. In those rules you just posted, these are the exact words:

    Starting in 2013-14, the team receiving the player cannot be above the "apron" ($4 million above the tax level) after the trade1, 2. A team above the apron can receive a player in a sign-and-trade if the trade reduces the team's payroll and the team finishes the trade below the apron.

    Starting in 2013-14, the team cannot receive a player in a sign-and-trade if they have used the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception (see question number25) that season.

    The distinction, looking at what Larry Coon has written there, is the difference between when he writes "a player" vs "the player" for example, when he writes "Starting in 2013-14, the team cannot receive a player in a sign and trade if they have used the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception" it means they can't receive anyone. In the other case, it means they can't be receiving the one who was signed and traded.

    And as you can see in my previous post, I've had this confirmed by an expert (David Weiner).

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I'm done. Believe what you want.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    @2016

    I gave you the answer in black and white and you still ignore the facts...........for those who are confused......both teams must be under the tax apron at the conclusion of the trade.......don't take my word for it look for yourself http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

    question # 89 is the answer to this

  • Dan G says 1 YEAR ago

    @BimaThug Okay, because the way the rules are read makes it sound like the Lakers must land below the apron for that trade to be legal.

    @2016Champions Nah, just can't land above the apron if they're getting the S&T'd player.


    Maybe this will finally help shine more light on this subject:


    17.Jeff

    Larry, will the Knicks be able to use their 2013-14
    $3 million cash allotment to make draft days deals? Also can they realistically
    get under the apron to make a sign and trade?


    Larry Coon


    No to the first question. The $3 million is their
    mid-level exception, which can be used to sign free agents starting July 10. It
    can’t be used in a trade, which is what you were suggesting in a draft-day
    deal.



    As for getting under the apron to do a sign-and-trade,
    right now they’re at about $79.6 million, and they’d have to FINISH the sign
    and trade below the apron (which I’m guessing will be around $77 million). If
    they could do a sign-and-trade where they trade away a few million more than
    they acquire, it could work.

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-salary-cap-chat-with-larry-coon-52413

    It was the last question.

  • Stephen says 1 YEAR ago

    Rahat,

    I apologize on the Lin and Asik deals.

    I remember reading from the time of the signing from Hollinger or Coons that it was only the Rockets that had the Cap hit.

    But upon re-reading Coons Cap page(Article 44) and a Q&A w/Coons on 2/23/13,Coons states that if the Rockets traded Lin or Asik they get a Cap hit equal to the Rockets.

  • Stephen says 1 YEAR ago

    The Clips and Lakers could do a Sign-n-Trade w/ Howard for Blake,Bledsoe and DeJuan Summers(to get w/in 125%).

    BUT,and this is where reality rears it's ugly head...

    The Clips would have 7 players under contract-Howard,Paul,Jordan,Butler,Crawford,the #25 and non-guranteed Green.

    That's almost $66mil in salaries and they now have a Hard Cap of @ $75mil they can't go over.

    In a best case they can do another Sign-n-Trade w/Atlanta and get Josh Smith for about what they pay Jordan.

    They have the $5mil Exception to use and only need a back-up PG,SF,PF,C and two more players to get to minimum roster of 13 players.

    Say they split the MLE between two players. They now have 9 players and only $4mil to sign the other 4 they need. Doable,except every one of those 4 has to be either rookie mins or vet mins.

    2014 doesn't get any better as they have Howard,Paul,Smith making over $52mil,the MLE player(s) another $5mil and the 2013 First and Crawford's buy-out another $2.5mil,a total of $59mil leaving rookies,vet mins and another MLE to fill out roster.

    2015 and 2016 are the same,each yr adding a First,a MLE and fill out w/mins.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    This whole thing started talking about a Lakers-Clippers Deal....are the Clippers not subject to the same rules? This is what is seeming to be ignored.....Yes, in your scenario the Lakers could do it, but can the Clippers--they're over too.

    Clippers are not over the apron, and they would remain under it after the trade. You realize where the apron is right?

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    @BimaThug Okay, because the way the rules are read makes it sound like the Lakers must land below the apron for that trade to be legal.

    @2016Champions Nah, just can't land above the apron if they're getting the S&T'd player.

  • Dan G says 1 YEAR ago

    Rahat,

    Lin and Asik have a Salary Cap value of @ $8.4mil ONLY to the Rockets. To every other team their Salary Cap value is their actual salary. This yr both Lin and Asik would only count a little over $5mil to another team,while next yr they count $15mil.

    I believe the Salary Cap is going to be higher than the $58.5 predicted by the NBA. In recent yrs the actual Cap figure set in July has been higher than the June predicted Cap,usually by a mil or so.(Back before the NBA froze the Cap.)

    I'm trying to find proof of this but the $5, $5, $15 mil would have only applied to the Knicks' and Bulls' salary cap had they chosen to match Houston's offer.

    As it stands now, the cap value even if traded is the 8.4 for the next two years but each year, Lin and Asik get paid the $5, $5, and $15 mil, which really hurts Lin's value IMO since even though his cap value would be 8.4 mil, he would actually be paid 15 mil that final season.

    Like I said, I will try to find hard proof on this but I do remember reading something and it was as I posted above.

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    This whole thing started talking about a Lakers-Clippers Deal....are the Clippers not subject to the same rules? This is what is seeming to be ignored.....Yes, in your scenario the Lakers could do it, but can the Clippers--they're over too.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    @BimaThug S&T Dwight ($20.5m) for Blake ($16.4m) + Bledsoe ($2.6). Technically does this trade work despite Lakers landing over apron?

    @2016Champions Not sure Blake's salary is that high (should be same as Harden's). But if those were the numbers, seems like it'd be legal.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    is quite clear they cannot be over the apron at the end of the trade.

    IF they are receiving a S&T guy.

  • Dan G says 1 YEAR ago

    RBF's point only applies to the team receiving the signed player...

    The way it's all worded can make it very confusing, but trust me, I'm right on this. The Lakers can trade and still be over the apron after the trade if they're not the team receiving the signed player--I have confirmed this with experts.

    What have you confirmed with the experts? Are you talking about this tweet question:


    @BimaThug Is it true that Lakers can receive players in a S&T as long as the player they receive isn't a S&T guy?




    @2016Champions Yes, that is true.

    If that is the case that question did not address being over the apron after a S&T and only addresses receiving players in a S&T as long as the player isn't a S&T guy. To me the final part of that last sentence in Larry Coon's quote (and a team that’s above can do a sign-and-trade as long as they take on less salary and it brings them below) is quite clear they cannot be over the apron at the end of the trade.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Rahat,

    Lin and Asik have a Salary Cap value of @ $8.4mil ONLY to the Rockets. To every other team their Salary Cap value is their actual salary. This yr both Lin and Asik would only count a little over $5mil to another team,while next yr they count $15mil.

    I believe the Salary Cap is going to be higher than the $58.5 predicted by the NBA. In recent yrs the actual Cap figure set in July has been higher than the June predicted Cap,usually by a mil or so.(Back before the NBA froze the Cap.)

    Do you have a link to this info?

  • Stephen says 1 YEAR ago

    Rahat,

    Lin and Asik have a Salary Cap value of @ $8.4mil ONLY to the Rockets. To every other team their Salary Cap value is their actual salary. This yr both Lin and Asik would only count a little over $5mil to another team,while next yr they count $15mil.

    I believe the Salary Cap is going to be higher than the $58.5 predicted by the NBA. In recent yrs the actual Cap figure set in July has been higher than the June predicted Cap,usually by a mil or so.(Back before the NBA froze the Cap.)

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago


    After reading that quote it seems to me that both you and RBF are correct, but y'all are each stressing one point and not seeing the other's point; however, RBF's point at this time trumps your point because the Lakers are so far above the apron they would have to shed significant salary in order to even try and make this trade work. In order for the trade to be allowed, both teams would have to be under the apron at the end of the trade.

    RBF's point only applies to the team receiving the signed player...

    The way it's all worded can make it very confusing, but trust me, I'm right on this. The Lakers can trade and still be over the apron after the trade if they're not the team receiving the signed player--I have confirmed this with experts.

  • Dan G says 1 YEAR ago


    Larry Coon

    Teams over the APRON (not the cap…the point $4 million above the tax line) can’t receive a player in a sign-and-trade. They can still trade away players in a sign-and trade, and/or receive players who are not themselves signed & traded. (2016's point) Whether
    a team is over or under the apron is evaluated at the conclusion of the
    trade — so a team under the apron can’t do a sign & trade that
    takes them above it, and a team that’s above can do a sign-and-trade as
    long as they take on less salary and it brings them below
    . (RBF's point)

    After reading that quote it seems to me that both you and RBF are correct, but y'all are each stressing one point and not seeing the other's point; however, RBF's point at this time trumps your point because the Lakers are so far above the apron they would have to shed significant salary in order to even try and make this trade work. In order for the trade to be allowed, both teams would have to be under the apron at the end of the trade.

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    Is that contingent on an amnesty first?

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    @BimaThug Is it true that Lakers can receive players in a S&T as long as the player they receive isn't a S&T guy?

    @2016Champions Yes, that is true.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Larry Coon

    Teams over the APRON (not the cap…the point $4 million above the tax line) can’t receive a player in a sign-and-trade. They can still trade away players in a sign-and trade, and/or receive players who are not themselves signed & traded. Whether a team is over or under the apron is evaluated at the conclusion of the trade — so a team under the apron can’t do a sign & trade that takes them above it, and a team that’s above can do a sign-and-trade as long as they take on less salary and it brings them below.


    Read more athttp://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-salary-cap-chat-with-larry-coon-52413#foBo6o4bHIDcH3wp.99

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Qya6mdn.gif

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    Or if they amnesty Gasol.

    true

  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago



    both the Lakers and the clippers have a problem with this. the lakers have 78 mil on the books without signing howard which means they must reduce their payroll by at least 3 mil in addition to the players salaries they receive in the trade just to be able to do the trade as for the clippers in order for them to receive D-12 they need to move about 20 mil from their payroll. they can't trade it to the Lakers unless the lakers have room to receive it or a 3rd team getting involved


    Or if they amnesty Gasol.
  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago 89. Can a free agent be signed and immediately traded?

    There is a rule that allows teams to re-sign their own free agents for trading purposes, called the sign-and-trade rule. Under this rule the player is re-signed and immediately traded to another team. This is done by adding a clause to the contract stipulating that the contract is null and void if the trade to the specific team is not completed within 48 hours. To qualify for a sign-and-trade, all of the following must be true:

    • The player must re-sign with his prior team -- a team cannot include another team's free agent in a sign-and-trade.
    • The player must finish the preceding season with that team (deals are no longer allowed that sign-and-trade players who are out of the league, such as the sign-and-trade that sent Keith Van Horn from Dallas to New Jersey as part of the Jason Kidd trade in 2008).
    • The player cannot be a restricted free agent who has signed an offer sheet with another team (see question number 43).
    • Starting in 2013-14, the team receiving the player cannot be above the "apron" ($4 million above the tax level) after the trade1, 2. A team above the apron can receive a player in a sign-and-trade if the trade reduces the team's payroll and the team finishes the trade below the apron

    this is from coon's web site.......... read the 4th point..............argument settled

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    I'm going to try to explain this one more time.

    A team over the apron cannot receive a S&T guy if they're still over the apron after the trade, BUT they can receiveplayers who already have contracts. So in other words, it's okay if the players they are receiving are not being SIGNED and traded--they're just being traded.

    This is why a sign and trade involving Dwight for Blake + fillers can work even if Lakers remain over the apron after the trade. That's why the team receiving the S&T guy would be the Clippers, not the Lakers.

    If you still don't get it I give up.

    this is the last time I will waste my time breaking this down for you since you seem bent on not absorbing the facts

    the team sending out the sign and trade player must themselves be under the tax apron at the completion of the trade. they can take back players as long as taking those players will not put them over the tax apron. if it does they can't do the trade

    like wise the team receiving the sign and trade player can not be over the tax apron either at the completion of the trade or the trade can not be done

    both the Lakers and the clippers have a problem with this. the lakers have 78 mil on the books without signing howard which means they must reduce their payroll by at least 3 mil in addition to the players salaries they receive in the trade just to be able to do the trade as for the clippers in order for them to receive D-12 they need to move about 20 mil from their payroll. they can't trade it to the Lakers unless the lakers have room to receive it or a 3rd team getting involved

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I'm going to try to explain this one more time.

    A team over the apron cannot receive a S&T guy if they're still over the apron after the trade, BUT they can receiveplayers who already have contracts. So in other words, it's okay if the players they are receiving are not being SIGNED and traded--they're just being traded.

    This is why a sign and trade involving Dwight for Blake + fillers can work even if Lakers remain over the apron after the trade. The team receiving the S&T guy (Dwight) would be the Clippers, not the Lakers, so as long as the Clippers don't land over they apron then it works.

    If you still don't get it I give up.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    It clarifies the rule you read. Keep in mind that the rule you read was also written by Larry Coon...

    I'm still right though

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    It clarifies the rule you read. Keep in mind that the rule you read was also written by Larry Coon...

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    2016

    I already told you the trade was possible....however the conditions under which it is possible are near impossible. neither team can be over the luxury tax apron upon the completion of the trade. between these 2 teams that's hard to do

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    Restriction is against RECEIVING a S&T guy. MT @Wrldwidefantasy Can lakers use the S&T with Dwight considering they're so far over the cap?

    and this proves what?

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Restriction is against RECEIVING a S&T guy. MT @Wrldwidefantasy Can lakers use the S&T with Dwight considering they're so far over the cap?

  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago

    problem is they have a very short window in which they can use the amnesty. so a quick decision is necessary. besides I doubt them wanting to help build a super team down the hall from them


    I'm sure the Lakers brass are working on every possible scenario in regards to Howard, so any decision made will have been given a considerable amount of thought by the time one has to be made.

    While they wouldn't necessarily want to build a superteam across the hall, there is a chance that Howard will refuse to play with Kobe. If you were the Lakers and knew that Howard wants to leave, you could let him walk to Houston for nothing in return (or get Asik and Lin in a sign and trade scenario), or you can trade him to your crosstown rival in exchange for Blake Griffin.

    I'd take Griffin 10 out of 10 times and give the Clippers their one season of Western Conference semifinals glory, all the while rebuilding toward the 2014 season.
  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    Well if the Lakers and Clips wanted to make this happen, then they could without a 3rd team. Amnestying Gasol would be a relatively small price to pay to secure an All Star 24-yr old PF. I'm sure they would rather trade Gasol but his value isn't commensurate with his contract.

    problem is they have a very short window in which they can use the amnesty. so a quick decision is necessary. besides I doubt them wanting to help build a super team down the hall from them

  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago Well if the Lakers and Clips wanted to make this happen, then they could without a 3rd team. Amnestying Gasol would be a relatively small price to pay to secure an All Star 24-yr old PF. I'm sure they would rather trade Gasol but his value isn't commensurate with his contract.
  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    I'm no salary cap whiz so I will not get in too deep of a discussion. But what if the Lakers amnesty Pau Gasol's $19 million salary? They then sign D12 and subsequently trade him to the Clips in return for Griffin and future HoFer Bledsoe, who have a combined salary of $19 million next season.

    Would it work then?

    if the Lakers amnesty gasol or kobe then the trade becomes possible

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    RBF read the rules wrong. A team over the apron can't receive a player via sign and trade, but that doesn't mean they can't receive players in the sign and trade.

    So for example, the Lakers can't receive Chris Paul in a sign and trade, but they can receive Blake Griffin + fillers while signing and trading Dwight Howard away.

    NO I'm correct. a team can't receive any players at all if it will leave them over the luxury tax apron period....newly signed or otherwise maybe you better recheck the rules if you don't believe it

  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago I'm no salary cap whiz so I will not get in too deep of a discussion. But what if the Lakers amnesty Pau Gasol's $19 million salary? They then sign D12 and subsequently trade him to the Clips in return for Griffin and future HoFer Bledsoe, who have a combined salary of $19 million next season.

    Would it work then?
  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    RBF read the rules wrong. A team over the apron can't receive a player via sign and trade, but that doesn't mean they can't receive players in the sign and trade.

    So for example, the Lakers can't receive Chris Paul in a sign and trade (if they're still over the apron after the trade), but they can receive Blake Griffin + fillers (assuming all those players already have contracts so they are not being SIGNED and traded, they're just being traded) while signing and trading Dwight Howard away.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    Can you provide a source for this? I've googled around a couple of the links and none mention a 3rd team needing to be involved.

    this is why a 3rd team must be involved

    1. the Lakers are over the luxury tax line and the luxury tax apron even before resigning Howard. the new CBA says a team can not do a sign and trade unlessif after the trade is complete the team has reduced it's payroll to a level under the luxury tax apron. the Lakers have 78 mil without D-12 on the books....the luxury tax apron is 75 mil

    2. the new CBA also says that the team receiving the incoming signed player also must be under the apron at the conclusion of the trade. once they sign cp3 the clippers will be close to the apron themselves so they will not be able to accept salary from the Lakers because it would put them over the tax apron. they would have to move 20 mil dollars from their payroll to accept D-12 in a trade, but the Lakers will not be in position to receive it

    go here for all salary cap data http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago

    the clippers and lakers can't do a sign and trade without a 3rd team


    Can you provide a source for this? I've googled around a couple of the links and none mention a 3rd team needing to be involved.
  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    the clippers and lakers can't do a sign and trade without a 3rd team

  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago Paul and Howard with the Clips is probably the most plausible of any of the scenarios out there. While a Clips-Lakers trade seems hard to envision on the surface, I can see Griffin requesting a "move" to the Lakers, especially in light of the reported frosty relationship between himself and Paul.

    It's a win-win for both teams: Griffin gets to play for the marquee franchise in the NBA without having to move out of his own home. The Lakers get a young, bankable superstar PF who would thrive in D'Antoni's system (think Phoenix-version Amar'e) and is also 4 years younger than Howard. The Clips get to keep Paul, & will form a dynamic small-big combo with Howard (that is, until either Paul's knee or Howard's back goes out first).

    I don't think Atlanta is a market either of them want to play in, & seismic shifts in the roster would have to occur in order for both Paul and Howard to end up in Houston.
  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    been giving this duel signing some thought. my thinking was how could the rockets pull this off.........in order to be set to pursue both you must have some realistic plan that sounds at least possibletoo acquire both if they do indeed say yes................and then it hit me. the rockets have a route to this type of maneuver

    the rockets must fill 12 roster spots. they must strip the team down some via releasing Garcia(already done) releasing both brooks and delfino.....we pretty much expect this.....also cut Anderson and ohlbrecth.........that leaves them with

    asik, lin, harden,parsons,white,robinson,t-jones, d-mo,g-smith,beverly.......10 players

    D-12 max salary is 20.5 mil...........cp3 max is 18.7 mil.

    here's how we get them

    we trade asik ,lin white and t-rob......not a huge task. asik is the jewel among the group, but all can be moved. we can trade lin and t-rob to Utah for draft picks.......them knowing we need a trade will probably cut down the return, but they clearly need a PG and might want lin for a short term fix. trade asik and white + 2 mil to philly. they will probably move on from Bynum and will need a center.......knowing sam hinkie they would jump all over this deal. now if that don't work move all four to philly along with our 2015 and 2017 first rounders.....another deal I'm sure hinkie would jump all over. .........other trades are possible I'm just laying out the possibility. these players are moveable.........now the money

    Howard = 20.500.000

    parsons= 927.000

    harden=13.669.000

    t-jones = 1.552.000

    d-mo= 1.443.000

    g-smith= 885.000

    Beverly= 789.000

    cp3 = 18.700.000

    4 cap holes= 2mil

    grand total 60.565.000 depending on where the cap lands makes the next step necessary..........if both D-12 andcp3 take a 800.000 pay cut from their max it gives the rockets 1.6 mil they can remove in salary. this amount still pays both player far more than they can make in any other situation both on 4 year deals..............with the discounts figured in that leaves the rockets at just below 59 mil in salary.

    now the salary cap this year was 58 mil. it only needs to rise 1 mil for this plan not totally out of the question

    now for rebuilding the team the rockets have only 8 players and need 12.......we can bring Garcia back at the room exemption for 2.6......all others must be minimum salaried players both Anderson and ohlbrecth fall into this area because that's what we pay them now.....so bring both back giving us 11 players......our #34 draft pick won't count against the cap until he is signed so save this for last

    we would then have a team that looks like this

    D-12

    Harden

    CP3

    Parsons

    T-Jones

    D-Mo

    G-Smith

    Beverly

    Anderson

    Ohlbretch

    Garcia

    #34 draft pick

  • Richards says 1 YEAR ago

    Another west team will not help Rockets to make better. They won't take Lin (or Asik) if you think they are mediocre. We can get either one or they will team up in Atlanta.

  • Red94 says 1 YEAR ago New post: An exploration of the scenario involving both Chris Paul and Dwight Howard: Part 2
    By: rahat huq

    Yesterday I explained that because of the cap complexities, it would be extremely difficult for the Houston Rockets to acquire both Chris Paul and Dwight Howard.  Today, ESPN.com is reporting that Howard and Paul have been in constant contact about teaming up.  The article states that while neither player is particularly fond of the idea of playing for the Hawks, Howard's hometown, they would consider the prospect given that the Hawks have the money to sign both players outright.  Reportedly, the preference would be to join forces with the Clippers.

    The report wreaks of a leak from the Paul camp in hopes of forcing L.A.'s hand into trading Griffin for Howard.  Without a viable threat, the Clippers could simply just call Paul's bluff, knowing that he has no better alternatives than simply staying put.  Enter the Hawks.

    While they'd still have Horford, Atlanta wouldn't even be able to offer the tax difference provided by the Texas teams which even made the idea of leaving palatable in the first place.  So you mean to tell me that they're going to take less money to a city they don't want to be in to play on a team with 9 other guys straight from the NBDL?  It doesn't seem credible.

    My hunch is that Paul wants the Clippers to deal Griffin for Howard, the former of whom the Clippers insist is untouchable.  He has to be able to threaten that if they don't play ball, they'll just team up elsewhere.

    If I'm the Clippers, I deal Griffin.  While he's younger, I don't subscribe to the notion of always preferring youth.  That can get you into problems, especially when the alternative is just 28.  You only have so many windows of opportunity so it would be foolish to pass one like this up.

    Where does this leave Houston?  As I explained yesterday, while it can be done, it would be incredibly to pull off signing both of these guys.  My hunch again--based on nothing but my own opinion--is that the Paul camp sees Howard as its ticket.  Paul can't risk losing Howard to Houston which is pretty much a ready-made situation for the latter.

    As I explained in Part 1, I just can't see either of the L.A. teams agreeing to a sign&trade.  Regardless of what you think about Omer Asik and Jeremy Lin, I think the Lakers especially would prefer to just start clean.  If the two superstars really are intent on playing together, they could really make things easier and just agree to small paycuts.  That would make it a bit easier for Daryl Morey to move the necessary parts in separate deals to be able to sign the players outright.  (Even then, I still don't see a team absorbing Jeremy Lin's contract for free.  Maybe I'm undervaluing him, but if I had the equivalent of $8.3million of cap space (whether it be through a TPE, space, or expiring contracts, I can think of at least 3o ways I'd rather use it than on trading for Jeremy Lin.  That's just me though.)

    Ultimately, I don't think the two stars will be able to pair up but it makes for interesting discussion.

  • Rahat Huq says 1 YEAR ago

    I wonder if they're using Atlanta as a bluff to get one of the teams to sign&trade them to Houston? It could only work of course if the teams are willing to take back our package, which I don't think they would. But I wonder if that's the plan.

  • Rahat Huq says 1 YEAR ago

    The numbers I have show that Atlanta cannot plausibly offer both of them the full max - but I could be wrong on that. (Those scoop pieces often have wrong cap info b/c it's just fed from agents regardless of whether it can work.)

    If I were the Clippers, I'd trade Griffin for Howard without batting an eye, especially if it means even risking losing Paul altogether.

    And as I wrote in my article, it's just not plausible for this team-up to happen in Houston barring the MIRACULOUS.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    Sorry, I mis-spoke; I meant to say future All-World, Future HoFer and President of the USA Eric Bledsoe.

    future HoFer......Bledsoe.........now you guys know I like Bledsoe, but HoFer is a little overboard IMO

  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago

    future HoFerEric Bledsoe

    Oh-Really-Spock-on-Star-Trek.gif

    Sorry, I mis-spoke; I meant to say future All-World, Future HoFer and President of the USA Eric Bledsoe.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    future HoFerEric Bledsoe

    Oh-Really-Spock-on-Star-Trek.gif

  • LMAOwais says 1 YEAR ago

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=F3Fty4ZPyg0

    http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/s...utostart=false

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    it appears that cp3 and D-12 are at least talking to each other about playing together check this out

    http://fansided.com/2013/06/14/chris-paul-and-dwight-howard-texting-each-other-want-to-play-together/

    I think we are the front runners for D-12, but he may bring cp3 with him

  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago

    The wild card in all this is that Donald Sterling is crazy and not above doing crazy/stupid things.

    Just read the latest rumors that Paul and Howard have discussed the possibility of playing together, with the two mentioned destinations being the LA Clippers and ATL. The only way Howard can end up a Clipper with Paul is via sign-and-trade; it's highly doubtful if the Lakers would be willing to do anything to improve the lot of the Clippers, unless they get Blake Griffin and future HoFer Eric Bledsoe in return.

  • Chichos says 1 YEAR ago

    If we bring this conversation back to how it could happen (personally I would have named this thread "Foundations of a Pipe Dream")

    I think the Lakers remain the most viable target as they could actually use the players we would need to get rid of. Lin and Asik would could both start for the Lakers next season, I am assuming that Nash will be injured and or DAntoni will play small ball to try to save his job. TRob would be the middle class man's Jordan Hill with that elusive promise that all top picks have. LA could even dump a contract like Chris Duhon on us if they agreed to a sign and trade.

    Unforetunately I agree with Rahat in that they won't do this. They wouldn't do it if we threw in Chandler Parsons, outside of Harden they have a very low interest in any of our players. There is no star in this deal and they believe (They seriously seem to believe) they will get Lebron nextsummer. The deals they want to make are to shed salary. Iwouldbet their entire strategy for keeping Howard is "Just wait and other stars will come play with you because we are the Lakers." They don't believe they are like any other team and why wouldn't they believe it, they have 30 years of history that proves them right.

    The wild card in all this is that Donald Sterling is crazy and not above doing crazy/stupid things. You should really google "Donald Sterling racist" there is some good stuff in there.

  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago

    Being old doesn't make you bad they were just hurt a lot. And nash didnt play big minuetes when he wasnt hurt. The entire lakers roster had huge injury problems.

    Nash played 32.5 mpg and 50 regular season games; Paul played 33.4 mpg and 70 regular season games. If Nash didn't have that freak fibular fracture and nerve injury at the beginning of the season, they would have both played a similar number of games.

    Kobe played every regular season game until his Achilles tendon exploded in game 78.

    I'm not debating the injury issues the Lakers had. But injuries are a part of the game, and Paul certainly has his chronic knee issues that he will bring to whatever team he signs with, as will Howard.

    Back to my original point, the similarities between Nash-Kobe-Howard and potentially Paul-Harden-Howard can't be ignored, age notwithstanding. Harden MAY defer a little more than Kobe did, but we are talking about a player that some people think would go rogue Iso-Harden at the end of games (as in "I don't care who my teammates are, this is MY team and I'M going to go win the game MY way).

  • Cooper says 1 YEAR ago Being old doesn't make you bad they were just hurt a lot. And nash didnt play big minuetes when he wasnt hurt. The entire lakers roster had huge injury problems.
  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago

    Well Nash and Kobe are about a combined thousand years old basketball wise. And Westbrook and harden only had a 2yrs in okc.

    I stand corrected. Kobe at his advanced age only averaged 27/6/6 on a 23.1 PER (compared to Harden's 26/6/5 on a 23 PER) while Nash dragged his bad back and leg to a meager 50/40/90 shooting season.

    Westbrook, Durant and Harden had 3 full seasons together in OKC.

  • Rockets fan newton says 1 YEAR ago 1.loved the article even the Lin part,which was fair
    2.harden can shot a whole lot better then wade can so be more then capable to play off the ball and be a slasher/pull up guy..he only took over the dribbling in OKC when Westbrook was out the game. Which he can do when Paul is out the game now
    3.this would be the most ideal big three cause they can all def and score at the same time..bosh just hits open shots..I kno without doubt we would win easily without issue just from the fact that harden has succeed playing with superstars
    4.i slightly agree with the Paul isn't perfect and getting Milsap idea..however I believe that Tjones can put up the same numbers as Milsap could so y pay him the money and not atleast see what Tjones can do with stars
    5.i believe the major point is to get Howard to commit first..then worry about he other person after..we have til the 10th to figure out who else comes..we need to have him commuted by the 3rd then have him and harden go get another player..I believe that LBJ went to Miami cause wade and bosh signed there first..the same would happen with Paul..he would want to come here after Dwight has commited.
  • Cooper says 1 YEAR ago

    Isn't the whole Paul-Harden-Howard triumvirate more than just a little similar to the Nash-Kobe-Howard triumvirate?

    I'm not necessarily saying it can't work, but concessions will have to be made by everyone (as tends to happens when stars join forces for the overall good of the team), and not to mention that there will be little cash left to supplement the remaining starters and bench.

    Part of why Durant-Westbrook-Harden worked is because they were all drafted by OKC and had years of practice and games to get their chemistry on point. That's more of an ideal scenario when you've assembled that caliber of talent, as opposed to assembling an All-Star team via free agency or trade.

    At the end of the day I suppose the Rockets should try to acquire both Paul and Howard,
    because it's better to know if it did or didn't work as opposed to asking "What if?".

    Well Nash and Kobe are about a combined thousand years old basketball wise. And Westbrook and harden only had a 2yrs in okc.
  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago

    Isn't the whole Paul-Harden-Howard triumvirate more than just a little similar to the Nash-Kobe-Howard triumvirate?

    I'm not necessarily saying it can't work, but concessions will have to be made by everyone (as tends to happens when stars join forces for the overall good of the team), and not to mention that there will be little cash left to supplement the remaining starters and bench.

    Part of why Durant-Westbrook-Harden worked is because they were all drafted by OKC and had years of practice and games to get their chemistry on point. That's more of an ideal scenario when you've assembled that caliber of talent, as opposed to assembling an All-Star team via free agency or trade.

    At the end of the day I suppose the Rockets should try to acquire both Paul and Howard, because it's better to know if it did or didn't work as opposed to asking "What if?".

  • tombrokeoff says 1 YEAR ago

    great topic. great conversation. all of the speculation is fun, but i am just going to sit back and wait to see how it all plays out. and whatever does happen, ill hope for the best chemistry and health. as rockets fans, this is an exciting time. lets hope it continues to get better.

  • Alituro says 1 YEAR ago

    I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion, also that Harden and Paul couldn't share the court together. Much like Freebird said, I think Harden is at his best when working off the ball, his efficiency severely dropped off after taking more and more of the facilitator load. Paul is also at his best when he has competent players working off the ball, rather than needing to be the #1 scoring option. A Harden/Paul backcourt could possibly be the most lethal guard combo in the league, ever. And to add Howard to the mix, a center capable of actually catching the lobs, coupled with athletic dynamos, Parsons and Jones. This team would be instantly dominant and if Morey could make it happen, it'd be genius. And as Parsons becomes the fourth scoring option and his number slip a bit, he once again becomes affordable for the future, and would make himself affordable to just keep winning titles. Win Win Win Win.

  • Freebird says 1 YEAR ago

    See, I don't think Paul and Harden together is a mismatch as alluded to above, for 2 reasons:

    1. Harden's last year in OKC, he and Westbrook played well together all the time in the 4th quarter. He is at his best off the ball.

    2. Harden's PG skills were necessary last year because:

    a) Lin was not up to snuff

    b) He was trying a bit too hard to be The Man

    c) Late game, he was our only focus (debatable, I know)

    With Paul, we have a decided leader for the offense, and Harden can focus on scoring and D, rather than directing an offense (or rather, taking all the offensive responsibilities onto himself). I have no worries if we end up with CP3.

    I have the same worries about D12 that we all have - his personality, and his seemingly declining skillset. He is still one of the best bigs around, and I'll root for him if he comes here, but I worry about what he will become - especially if his skills continue to deteriorate, and we are looking to off-load his contract in 3 years. It really hasn't been our philosophy to let talent evaporate, when we can trade for some supposed value later.

  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago

    I think part of why Miami's big 3 became the big 2 is because all 3 guys are offensive players, and they need the ball in their hands in order to dominate. We wouldn't have that problem with Dwight.

    Although he wouldn't be bringing the ball up the court, Howard would still demand his share touches and shots in the post (we haven't forgotten all of the barking he did to the media when he wasn't getting his shots and points last season on the Lakers, have we?). And I would definitely categorize Howard as an offensive player given his career 18 ppg average.

    One of the points I was trying to make is that it's easy for the 3rd guy in a Big 3 to be forgotten. At some point one of them has to take a back seat and supporting role. With Paul, Howard and Harden all in the primes of their careers (and each looking to bank one more max contract after ), it's hard for me to envision one of them willingly doing that at this point.

    Don't forget, Chandler Parsons will have to be paid, big bucks, most likely before the start of the 2014-15 season to prevent him from becoming an unrestricted free agent. This will definitely put Houston in the luxury tax, in my opinion, which is fine for a couple of seasons. But then things get really, really expensive after that assuming they don't dip back down in their salary cap by making other moves.

    Duly noted. But he won't be anywhere near CP3 bucks(he'll probably command half of CP3's salary if he enters into RFA), so the luxury tax hit wouldn't be as bad as having three guys making $17-20 million plus.

    As others have mentioned already (and as I've all along stated since the possibility was raised on other threads), a Paul-Harden backcourt is not an ideal match. It might take several games, or it may take a couple seasons, for the right chemistry to be established between those two. Maybe when Paul is in the twilight of his career and he is ready to just be a facilitator instead of a lead dog (like Jason Kidd was in his 2nd Dallas run) it would be a better pairing with Harden.

    To me, this whole "Let's get BOTH Paul AND Howard to come to Houston!" scenario reeks of "Let's do something just because we can!", and has no regard as to whether or not the pieces, skill sets and personalities all fit.

  • rocketrick says 1 YEAR ago

    There would be an adjustment period of at least a season if you were to add both Paul and Howard. Everyone would have to figure out there roles, who gets to take over, who handles the ball and makes the decisions at the end of the games, etc.

    Eventually the Big 3 would become the Big 2 + a highly paid complementary player. We've seen this developing in Miami in the last three seasons, where Lebron has overtaken Wade as the top option, Wade is the clear #2 superstar, & Bosh has been relegated to a distant 3rd banana. Bosh's struggles have already generated talk of him being traded after this season.

    This begs the question: Do you need a Big 3, or is a Big 2 with a solid supporting cast enough? There is only so much ball to go around on offense, & one of the three's production inevitably suffers (Bosh's #'s have declined every season since he's been in Miami & was a solid 17p/7r this season). Miami could get that kind of production for half of what they are paying Bosh. OKC tolerated losing Harden this season by increasing usage of the remaining Big 2 & getting solid play from the second tier stars.


    If Howard comes to Houston, Harden and Howard would make a formidable 1-2 punch, and Parsons would settle into a great 3rd option, a role he would be comfortable with and could thrive in. You'd also would have enough money leftover to maintain a solid supporting cast, as opposed to relying on signing aging stars willing to take a steep pay cut (but they'll save in state income tax!!) for the higher chance of getting the ring.

    Don't forget, Chandler Parsons will have to be paid, big bucks, most likely before the start of the 2014-15 season to prevent him from becoming an unrestricted free agent. This will definitely put Houston in the luxury tax, in my opinion, which is fine for a couple of seasons. But then things get really, really expensive after that assuming they don't dip back down in their salary cap by making other moves.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I think part of why Miami's big 3 became the big 2 is because all 3 guys are offensive players, and they need the ball in their hands in order to dominate. We wouldn't have that problem with Dwight.

  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago There would be an adjustment period of at least a season if you were to add both Paul and Howard. Everyone would have to figure out there roles, who gets to take over, who handles the ball and makes the decisions at the end of the games, etc.

    Eventually the Big 3 would become the Big 2 + a highly paid complementary player. We've seen this developing in Miami in the last three seasons, where Lebron has overtaken Wade as the top option, Wade is the clear #2 superstar, & Bosh has been relegated to a distant 3rd banana. Bosh's struggles have already generated talk of him being traded after this season.

    This begs the question: Do you need a Big 3, or is a Big 2 with a solid supporting cast enough? There is only so much ball to go around on offense, & one of the three's production inevitably suffers (Bosh's #'s have declined every season since he's been in Miami & was a solid 17p/7r this season). Miami could get that kind of production for half of what they are paying Bosh. OKC tolerated losing Harden this season by increasing usage of the remaining Big 2 & getting solid play from the second tier stars.


    If Howard comes to Houston, Harden and Howard would make a formidable 1-2 punch, and Parsons would settle into a great 3rd option, a role he would be comfortable with and could thrive in. You'd also would have enough money leftover to maintain a solid supporting cast, as opposed to relying on signing aging stars willing to take a steep pay cut (but they'll save in state income tax!!) for the higher chance of getting the ring.
  • RollingWave says 1 YEAR ago

    Chris Paul and Harden 's USG this year were both in the 25% range , it's higher than average but it's hardly Melo / Kobe territory, and even Melo ahd JR Smith who also used the ball considerably.

    Both guys are pretty good catch and shoot guys (granted Paul shot pretty badly this year.), Harden actually developed considerable off the ball skill towards the end of the season for anyone watching.

    The one final thing I think people don't realize is that, Harden's got a lot of PG skill.... FOR A SG, that means he's well well below average if he's actually used as a PG, he lead the league in turnover for a reason, and those turnover were also the single biggest killer to our defense last year. it is not truly evident that Harden need the ball more, from an efficiency POV, he may need it less. as noted before by me, the only thing Harden really did better this year relative to last rate wise was assist, and that may simply be a result of the system Houston runs relative to OKC.

    Paul also does one thing very well that Harden doesn't, running late possessions, I can easily point out that this team vastly underperformed it's point differential this year (which at worst should have been a 6th seed team. if not a 5th seed.) one major reason is that we don't win close games, and Harden starts almost 95% of the late and close possessions, you do the math.

    The thing with Chris Paul is that he has amazing assist to turn over ratio, he'll instantly cut down the team's turnover by a mile by taking away possession from Lin / Harden / Beverly . Harden may score less but he'll almost certainly do it at a much better rate.

    The real worry of Paul remains health, he's had knee trouble, and the history of undersized guards and longevity is pretty scary to say the least.

  • feelingsupersonic says 1 YEAR ago I think this team can absorb one superstar and still grow organically. Saying that if Morey can get Paul that is a no brainer. To me Paul might be the greatest floor general since Magic. I think Harden could adjust for a period. In reality Harden has no ego and to state that he does is to ignore his time in OKC and his willingness to be a bench player. Finally Harden would have some real help in the back court.
  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Even though I think the world of Chris Paul, and I would never say no to signing him if given the chance, I actually agree with the people saying Chris Paul isn't the perfect fit. Millsap would be a perfect fit imo, and we wouldn't even need to do anything crazy to sign him.

  • Cooper says 1 YEAR ago I think the talent out weighs the slight adjustments they could make to fit togther, but all of them would have to want to be here and together. Wade lebron and bosh didnt fit at all their first year toghether and still made the finals, they worked it out bosh and wade changed their games to fit around lebron and they won a title and are in another finals. If they want to be here and win there isn't any reason they couldn't but if not all 3 are committed to playing toghether and making adjustments it could be a big mess. I'd say its worth a shot but do understand if other people had reservations about it.
  • rocketrick says 1 YEAR ago If Doc Rivers ends up being the Clippers coach, why would CP3 want to leave money on the table? Doc Rivers would give the Clippers instant credibility next season.
  • rocketrick says 1 YEAR ago

    I grew up watching Stockton/Nash, but I do like CP3, but ever since his knee injury he hasn't been as explosive. I would rather have Harden play off the ball more but I'm not sure if his ego would allow that.

    I don't really believe it has anything to do with ego. Instead, I believe Harden is simply a much more effective player and playmaker with the ball in his hands. He proved that in OKC and he is proving that in Houston after his 1st season as a starter on a playoff team.

    Signing both Harden and Paul will, at times, relegate one to become a perimeter shooter.

    Don't forget, the Rockets also have 2 other capable playmakers in Jeremy Lin and Chandler Parsons. It becomes more and more difficult to maximize efficiency the more players on the court that share the same strengths.
  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I know Magic/Stockton/Isiah/Nash/Iverson/Kidd/Payton were all fantastic players in their time, so I don't want to say anything that will take anything away from that. I will just say I like Chris Paul ALOT.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago I grew up watching Stockton/Nash, but I do like CP3, but ever since his knee injury he hasn't been as explosive. I would rather have Harden play off the ball more but I'm not sure if his ego would allow that.
  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Cp3 might not be the ideal fit next to Harden, but how do you say no to signing Cp3 if you have the chance? We're talking about a top 5 player here..

  • John P says 1 YEAR ago

    To optimize Paul and Harden's strengths they both need the ball...just like Lin and Harden together. I would rather sign a more complimentary player at PF and fill a real need than double down on a second offensive ball dominanting PG/SG. Use the extra saved money that CP3 would demand and sign a millsap and/or have a stronger bench.

  • RollingWave says 1 YEAR ago

    No, not really, players can change approach all the time, Harden had considerably less usage in OKC, and was playing a lot more off ball towards the later half of the regular season anyway. there are some things that they might not do well enough, but Harden actually do a lot of things well, and might actually benefit from having less dribble time to be honest. Jeremy Lin wasn't playing the same way as he was in NY either, Wade and Bosh both play rather different than they were playing 3+ years ago.

    if it's just offense, playing almost any combo could theoretically work. there's always going to be some mismatch somewhere, some things work better than others, but both Paul and Harden do enough different things that they can adjust pretty considerably.

    Defensively is where it's really hard to get away with not having some things.

  • rocketrick says 1 YEAR ago

    you make pieces fit, I think it makes more logical sense the Lebron (ball dominant do everything guy) + Wade (ball dominant scorer) + Bosh (no low post presence "center") anyway.


    Calling Lin mediocre compare to Chris Paul makes perfect sense. because there are only 2 other PG I would seriously consider not taking Chris Paul over (Parker and Westbrook) and even those 2 I might do it. everyone else but those 2 is mediocre compare to Chris Paul, even Steph Curry and Deron Williams.

    Just like you can't force rectangular pieces of a puzzle to fit spherical holes, I don't believe you can "force" various players ("pieces") to fit. Instead, it seems much more logical to have players that are better suited to play off of each other and that have differing strengths in their individual games that bring more to the team concept in an efficient manner.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago I disagree. Steph and Westbrook would both be better fits with this team than CP3. A true point is wasted with Harden.
  • RollingWave says 1 YEAR ago

    you make pieces fit, I think it makes more logical sense the Lebron (ball dominant do everything guy) + Wade (ball dominant scorer) + Bosh (no low post presence "center") anyway.

    Calling Lin mediocre compare to Chris Paul makes perfect sense. because there are only 2 other PG I would seriously consider not taking Chris Paul over (Parker and Westbrook) and even those 2 I might do it. everyone else but those 2 is mediocre compare to Chris Paul, even Steph Curry and Deron Williams.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago Harden would not mesh well with CP3 at ALL. He loves being the primary ball handler. I don't see CP3 being worth 19 mil a year as an off-guard. That's just my take.
  • rocketrick says 1 YEAR ago

    New post: An exploration of the scenario involving both Chris Paul and Dwight Howard
    By: rahat huq


    Last Sunday, the Chronicle reported that the Rockets were diligently making preparations for a pursuit of Clippers star point guard Chris Paul. The report wasn't much of a surprise as the topic is one which has been widely discussed dating back to early last season. If the Rockets can't get Howard, they'll naturally want to be ready for the other big star on the market. Many have wondered, however, about the dream scenario pitting both Paul and Howard on the Rockets and its feasibility. Could it be done?
    {C}
    The biggest obstacle--aside from even getting these guys to commit--is that it almost certainly would require a sign&trade with either the Clippers or Lakers. This is because unless either or both of the stars agreed to discounts, it just wouldn't be feasible to create the amount of cap room to sign both players to their full max, outright. For instance, because the cap figure came in at $58.5million (rather than the $60million many had been expecting), to even fit in Howard's $20.5million max within existent cap room would require either (of the most favorable scenarios not involving Motiejunas/Jones) a) trading Thomas Robinson for essentially nothing along with paying a team to take on Royce White or B) trading Thomas Robinson and Greg Smith and waiving Royce White via the stretch provision.
    Morey would then need to give away Asik and Lin for free (a combined $16.7million) and then, even after trading away one of Terrence Jones or Motiejunas for free, factoring in roster charges, could still only offer Chris Paul $17.2million. Paul's max is $18.7million. You're then looking at needing to deal away the other of Motiejunas/Jones, along with Beverley, to even approach that figure, assuming he'd budge. Considering you'd need to give away your entire team for free (or future considerations), in separate deals, it's just not entirely realistic. (While those deals would leave the Rockets in the $18.7million range, that figure would be reduced by outstanding roster charges.) This is not even mentioning the critical fact that I don't think it would be possible to give away Jeremy Lin's $8.3million contract without taking back incoming salary.*
    The more plausible scenario would be the one that saw the team signing one of the two free agents outright and then trading Asik and Lin in a sign&trade for the other. The sign&trade scenario is more doable because, due to the rules, outgoing and incoming salary does not need to be matched dollar for dollar, but rather only need be within 125% (or 150% for non-tax paying teams). The Rockets wouldn't need to gut the entire team to get Paul his money.
    The problem here, as I noted above, is getting one of the Los Angeles teams to agree to help. Let's assume the Rockets signed Paul outright with their cap space. While some have argued that Lin and Asik would help the Lakers rebuild, I just don't see it that way. If I'm Mitch Kupchak, and I'm losing Howard, I'd rather start fresh in free agency next season rather than saddle myself with $17million incoming. I'd almost go so far as to say that the Laker scenario has no chance of happening.
    Your better bet is the opposite case: signing Howard outright and dangling Lin and Asik to the Clippers. I suppose one can envision the Clippers taking the two Rockets and then, with DeAndre Jordan and Eric Bledsoe, sorting their roster out on the trade market. But with Donald Sterling's documented frugality, I don't know if it is likely.
    *[sidenote: Much has been made of Lin's marketability in discussions surrounding the point guard's tradability. While his presence on the roster surely does open up business ventures independent from the Rockets for owner Les Alexander, keep in mind that actual NBA revenue is shared. As far as those other ventures, we possibly won't ever be privy to the impact Lin is making upon the owner's bottom line. For another NBA team, in this discussion, the question becomes whether those other opportunities justify an $8million roster cost (and expected $15million 'real' cost in 2014) for a mediocre starting point guard. And yes, Lin is merely mediocre at this point in time.>
    To even make the above scenario work, however, one would need to concoct a 'Prisoner's Dilemma', pitting Kupchak against the Clippers. Why? Because if one of the stars is signed outright, what motivation would the other star's current team have in cooperating in a sign&trade and helping Houston set up SuperFriends 2.0? For example, if the Rockets sign Howard with straight cash, the Clippers can just call Paul's bluff and refuse to deal - outside of Houston, there wouldn't be any superior alternatives to Paul than just simply returning to L.A. If Morey could get a commitment from both players upfront, the two teams would be pitted against one another in a race to at least get back value in Asik and Lin rather than be the team left with nothing. (This is of course assuming the unlikely scenario that the Lakers would even want Asik and Lin.)
    With that said, however, the risky aspect of selling the two players upon a united front is the fear that they'd become enamored only with a 'Big 3' rather than just with the Rockets. If everything fell apart in negotiations, with the other teams refusing to deal, the Rockets would be in danger of losing not just one, but both players. It's imperative that Morey sell each player on the merits of playing with Harden in Houston rather than with Harden and one another.
    Dwight Howard and Chris Paul may be watching the Finals tonight wondering what it would be like to form their own super-team. But unless they agree to paycuts, it's highly unlikely that will happen, at least in Houston. (While the national media has largely reported that the Hawks too can pair the two players, for detailed reasons requiring another post, this also cannot happen without discounted rates.)
    And for Morey, while forming the next Big 3 is certainly enticing, the pitch would be a risky one that could leave the team without either.

    I don't know how other contributors on this board feel, but I just don't see a Big 3 of Harden, CP3 and D12 meshing well at all.
  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    So I did some research, and I'm sure I'm not the only one here who still has alot to learn about the CBA so I thought I'd share my findings:

    Royce White has one more year on his contract where he makes 1.7m, and with the stretch provision we spread that out over 3 years cutting it down to only only around 566,000 per year... but there's a roster charge of around 460,000 on top of that (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). So with everything added up, waiving and stretching Royce White's contract saves us about 700,000.

    It's kinda funny that after all that we would still need to ask Dwight for a small discount, but it's only roughly 200,000 which he has to agree to right? It would be dumb if he doesn't.

    edit: As for signing Chris Paul too, like Rahut said there's alot of complications and risks involved. Imo the only way we're getting both superstars is if they both agree to a small discount.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    waiving Royce White via the stretch provision.

    Oh? I didn't know about the stretch provision. Nice!

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    @Rahat

    now you know calling Lin mediocre that you have open yourself to the wrath of the Lin advocates :lol:I personally agree, but the fallout from when I said the same.............well all you have to do is look at the DON'T GIVE UP ON J-LIN thread..........otherwise very good article. I think some here got overhyped about the possibility, but it's unlikely to happen. we are better off chasing D-12....adding him and building around D-12, Harden and Parsons with a sidekick of asik and Beverly combined with our stable of young forwards

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