158 replies to this topic

[Kade]

No tank. Acquire assets. Trade assets. Build franchise.

Boston with the massive complimentary player trades to get KG and RA. Detroit's stockpile of amateurs.

It's another path that you "Kade" do not believe it because it's not a get rich quick scheme. Some people strike gold. MANY people strike out. You can point to 4 or 5 franchises in the last 20 years that have struck gold through the draft but think of the other 25 teams that went for broke.

Portland's first rounders breaking ankles and knees. Charlottes multitude at striking it rich in the draft. Clipper pursuit of first rounders never panning out for the last 243052398 years.

Morey, keep it comin' baby. You get some more chandler parsons, carl landrys, aaron brooks, luis scolas, cuttino mobleys, Otis Thorpes and stockpile them. That brings us some Clyde Drexlers, Tracy Mcgradys and James Hardens.

I don't want to look like the Bobcats, Clippers and Twolves swinging for the fences every year. 8th seed in the playoffs with a solid, no nonsense team working for victories (ie Grizzlies and Warriors) has no proven to not bring in championships. But these teams are poised to make moves just as we are. It just takes that one move to make it all happen. Boston style.

Here's the thing, the way Morey is running the Rockets it's proven won't work
Can you have years of lottery picks that don't turn out for a number of reasons? Sure but at least your odds of getting a Durant, Lebron, etc are much higher than how Morey is running it.
FYI Clippers finally got it right but they also had an owner who never wanted to spend so that added to their problems. If the Rockets roster consisted of the Clippers players I don't see any Rocket fan turning that down.
Look at OKC as prime example what Rockets should attempt to emulate. Smaller market (yes Houston is top 5 largest cities but not considered a place where players are dying to play for = smaller tier market) teams have to go this way.

Boston has the history and players want to play for. Getting Allen and KG type player at the same time won't happen to Houston. Can't compare the kind of team like Boston that has deep history with Houston.

[Kade]

Speaking of T-Mac and Yao, truly it is their unfortunate injury history that hamstrung the rockets. Morey built excellent rosters to succeed around those two stars. Ultimately, it never came to fruition because of injuries...that and utah's match-up advantage over us in the playoffs. This was followed by the league rendering Kevin Martin impotent as a "star" player with the rule change that eliminated one of his best talents. It's unfortunate, but I don't see how any of that is Morey's fault.

As for the coaches, I'm not sold on McHale, but I'm willing to wait out the season with him and see how things progress. Ya know, Adelman isn't exactly doing all that great in Minny...and that is with the highly coveted Kevin Love. Although, I am sure that is McHale's fault since he used to be there.

Given the draft picks we have had, Morey has drafted incredibly well. I think only San Antonio does as well with so little.

Morey didn't build "excellent" rosters to build around Yao and McGrady. Many were high risk / high reward players.
Morey hasn't drafted "incredibly" well either. Has he drafted say a Rondo? Ibaka? You know an all star type say in the 20s or late teen draft pick? A player that EVERY team would take in a heart beat and if the draft was redone would easily be a top 3 pick in a do over? None for Morey since he's been here.
Morey drafts decent players who are very limited in many areas but not good enough to keep and trades them away. You think Morey would trade a Rondo or Ibaka? Don't think so.
Also SA has drafted well but they also have two All-Stars on their team and have won multiple championships and always in the postseason. Take Duncan and Parker out and they would be like the Rockets. The point is that Morey drafts players that could work but FIRST we need two guys who are proven playoff elite players first. How do you get that? In houston's case only the draft is possible because Morey hasn't to date been able to pluck from the draft an elite type of player.

[Kade]

Mchale is bad because he's playing Harden as the PG. He's the SG. If he's a hybrid guard and he runs the point, then Lin is not the guy for you. Lin is effective when running the point. He wasn't as effective last year when Melo came back and ran the point as the "point forward". I'm just saying that the coaching and game plans aren't being put together to make the full use of everybody's talents. Harden is struggling as the point guard now as well. His last 5 games have not been good at all. Sure he's gotten points, but the turnovers and the bad fg% means he's been extremely inefficient getting those points. Maybe that's all on Harden not letting Lin run the points, idk. But ultimately the blame lies with the coach. Lin will get better shooting the ball in the offseason as he practices catch and shoots more and hopefully gets his 3-point% up, but I still think that running Harden ISO for the majority of play calls is not the right move. But Mchale knows the team better, maybe he's right. It just seems that it hasn't been working.

McHale is bad on many levels and this was apparent when he was with Timberwolves (another look at the person's past and for whatever crazy reason Morey can't see it or thinks it's irrelevant or is trying to be too cute).
He's a big man who supposed to teach big men but our defense is pretty awful.
He's a coach who plays players out of position
He's a coach who won't play young right out of college players
Go back and look at Lin when he played in NY. He was used to exploit his strengths but now what? He's a SG? Why spend that money on him then basically not have him do what he's good at? Lin needs to create, needs to drive to basket and great at getting other people involved. But screw that, this is McHale. People complained about the same thing when he ran and/or coached the Timberwolves. You can't find one person in that state who remotely thinks he will succeed. You'd think a big man who played great defense for one of the best franchises at this point would you know teach defense first and get more and play all our big men and have them playing at higher level. He didn't with MN and hasn't with Houston.
In the business world the managers who hire and want smarter people to run things below them are the ones who succeed as well. The ones who want to be clearly the smartest person at the company and are insecure to hire smarter / better people below them are the ones who fail.

[areteejay789]

@kade do you think Sam presti should be fired because he hasn't won a title? What about Gar Forman at Chicago? he hasnt won either.
Winning is the ultimate goal, but not every season should be judged on winning a Title or not. OKC had KD and still spent 2 years in the lottery before finally making the playoffs (as the 8th seed). Be patient. Morey has always aimed at getting a superstar and then surrounding him with the best talent possible. We finally have a superstar in Harden, now let morey do his thing and surround him in talent. If we are not competing for WCF in 2 years or so, then fair enough, but patience is clearly the key in this situation.

As for McHale... well even RC buford makes mistakes (scola)

[tombrokeoff]

Rockets are bottom 10 in attendance and sliding. Most business men who are successful have to look at the big picture. Year after year with same results will see a steady decline in attendance = decline in sales

my point being, you dont know Les Alexander's orders to Morey. and just because attendance is in decline, doesnt mean that my point is invalid. it only means that Les is failing as an owner to attract customers. i am just saying it typically starts at the top. i dont find fault in Les myself, but i find it hard for someone to criticize Morey when you dont know one bit of what his boss is asking him to do.

[Kade]

for the people who are thinking maybe the LA is telling Morey what to do, at least from this recent SI piece on Morey that doesn't seem to be the case and look what happened as a result

Still, entering this season, the Rockets lacked that foundational player (though technically Morey had acquired one, Lakers forward Pau Gasol, before commissioner David Stern vetoed the trade last December). Morey could have added a piece and made another run at the playoffs. Instead he went to Alexander and told him they needed to take on even more risk.
One of the 400 richest men in the country, Alexander has spent his life evaluating risk. When I visited him in his office, he shuffled poker chips one-handed as we talked, and he plays regularly in a game with Carl Icahn and one of the top Goldman guys. He told Morey to do whatever it took.
So Morey used the second of his three first-round choices, the 16th pick, to draft the riskiest player available, Iowa State's Royce White. A 6'8", 260-pound power forward with the passing skills of a point guard, White suffers from an anxiety disorder that makes him afraid to fly. Many questioned the selection, but Morey and Hinkie saw it not as a matter of emotion or reason but of probability. They needed an elite player, and in their estimation White was one of the five top talents in the draft.

Others disagree with him on more fundamental levels. When the 76ers were hiring a G.M. last summer, they interviewed two analytic candidates, Hinkie and Celtics assistant G.M. Mike Zarren, before hiring Tony DiLeo, an old school G.M. Afterward John Mitchell of The Philadelphia Inquirer wrote a story, one many around the league interpreted as reflecting the viewpoint of the Sixers' staff, saying Morey was engaged in "an unchecked tail-chasing mission that has been going on ever since he was named general manager there five years ago." It also called him "the poster boy for reasons not to position an analytic as the basketball-operations rubber stamp." Van Gundy is not surprised. "A lot of basketball people want to see Daryl fail," he says, "not because they don't like him, but because they don't like the numbers movement."

More and this is the main gripe I have, oh well if there's a 10% chance why not? His problem is that 60% won't work out was way too low.

"It's about Royce White," Morey says. "He saw the doctor today, so that's good." White has become a thorny problem for the Rockets. The previous weekend they assigned him to the D-League, which they use more than other franchises, treating it much the way a baseball team views its farm system. White didn't report, and then on Monday he didn't show up for a game against the Heat. Making matters more complicated, White has been unleashing a stream of tweets painting management as unsympathetic to his anxiety disorder. At least on this afternoon Morey doesn't seem perturbed. The team took a risk with White, and with every risk there is the potential for failure. It is also early in the season. Considered from a risk-reward standpoint, the chance White won't work out is high—say, 60%—but because he's so talented, there's still a 10% chance he could become an All-Star. That is not something that can be said about the majority of NBA players.

[Kade]

I ask about the Rockets' future. Harden is a piece of the puzzle, Morey says, but not the endgame. Even after signing Harden to a five-year, $80 million extension, Houston is in position to have ample cap room next summer, enough to sign another foundational player. Morey's not picky about who it is. "We can't afford to be," he says.
Earlier I'd asked Alexander, the owner, about Morey's approach, and he had been cagey. How much longer would Alexander stick with the plan? "As long as it works." How long until he knew if it worked? "Two years." As for how he would know if it worked, Alexander was clear: Like Morey, he only plays this game for one reason.

[miketheodio]

i really don't understand fans like kade. sometimes it takes a couple years to build an elite team (OKC). it seems like if your team isn't an elite team in a year, then the team must suck. drafts often do not work out and they require a lot of luck.

i dont think mchale should be fired at this moment. he should make some changes with how the ball is handled. the only half court offense seems to be harden in isolation. harden should handle the ball, but not as much as he currently has been.

people were calling for del negro to be fire last year and now those calls have went silent. it's incredibly hard to make an elite team. chill out.

[Kade]

my point being, you dont know Les Alexander's orders to Morey. and just because attendance is in decline, doesnt mean that my point is invalid. it only means that Les is failing as an owner to attract customers. i am just saying it typically starts at the top. i dont find fault in Les myself, but i find it hard for someone to criticize Morey when you dont know one bit of what his boss is asking him to do.

It was clear that Morey ran the show and that he went to LA for more risk. Believe that was even talked about in these threads before so I decided to google. Yep, Morey is running it his way.

I just copy pasted from recent SI article about Morey where it's shows clear cut powers Morey has and how long until he's either gone or remains with teams (two years)

[Kade]

i really don't understand fans like kade. sometimes it takes a couple years to build an elite team (OKC). it seems like if your team isn't an elite team in a year, then the team must suck. drafts often do not work out and they require a lot of luck.

i dont think mchale should be fired at this moment. he should make some changes with how the ball is handled. the only half court offense seems to be harden in isolation. harden should handle the ball, but not as much as he currently has been.

people were calling for del negro to be fire last year and now those calls have went silent. it's incredibly hard to make an elite team. chill out.

Morey has been the official GM for the Rockets for 5.5 years, not 1 year.

[thejohnnygold]

Morey didn't build "excellent" rosters to build around Yao and McGrady. Many were high risk / high reward players.
Morey hasn't drafted "incredibly" well either. Has he drafted say a Rondo? Ibaka? You know an all star type say in the 20s or late teen draft pick? A player that EVERY team would take in a heart beat and if the draft was redone would easily be a top 3 pick in a do over? None for Morey since he's been here.
Morey drafts decent players who are very limited in many areas but not good enough to keep and trades them away. You think Morey would trade a Rondo or Ibaka? Don't think so.
Also SA has drafted well but they also have two All-Stars on their team and have won multiple championships and always in the postseason. Take Duncan and Parker out and they would be like the Rockets. The point is that Morey drafts players that could work but FIRST we need two guys who are proven playoff elite players first. How do you get that? In houston's case only the draft is possible because Morey hasn't to date been able to pluck from the draft an elite type of player.

Kade, you speak from emotion. Don't get me wrong...I like passion, but it must include some knowledge.

The Rockets drafted Rudy Gay above Rondo in 2006. As we had T-Mac and Yao, we traded Gay for Battier--a solid piece to go along side them and win. Again, it didn't work, but the move was solid at the time. We also drafted Steve Novak--deadly sharp shooter--later in that draft.

In 2007, he took aaron brooks at 26 and carl landry at 31. marc Gasol was the only player of note left on the board. (We had Yao)

In 2008, Serge Ibaka was taken one pick ahead of ours. We selected Nicoas Batum after him at #25. We eventually traded him for Ron Artest (in a long roundabout way). (We had Mcgrady, Battier, and James White.)

Now, if you want to criticize...Morey traded for Joey Dorsey and Darrell Arthur over D'Andre Jordan, Omer asik, and Goran Dragic. Although, Dorsey was a beast in college and looked like the second coming of ben wallace....I was excited when we picked him....oh well. (We had Yao, Mutumbo, and Chuck Hayes at center). Basically, Morey took batum and turned him into Ron artest and Joey dorsey

In 2009 he got chase budinger at #44. Nothing significant after him is on the board...unless you think Patty Mills counts.

In 2010, we took patrick patterson at 14. we missed eric bledsoe, grevis vasquez, However, We had PG's at the time...didn't need to draft them.

In 2011, it was marcus morris at 14, d-mo at 20 and chandler parsons at 38. Kawhi Leonard came off the board at 15 and Kenneth Fareid at 22...otherwise no one to speak of...maybe iman shumpert?

In 2012, of course we remember Jeremy Lamb at 12, Royce white at 16, and terrance jones at 18. So far, no picks below that have done anything to speak of.


So, all that being said I feel like Morey did really, really well with what he had. yes he has traded away a lot of those players. In return we have gotten better players. Please, tell me what could have been better given the parameters of who we already had on the roster and what our plans were before injuries to our stars.

Oh, and if you are counting....That is two "stars", 4-5 starters (not sure), and solid contributors all around except for white and this year's guys who are still developing. Again, it was Yao and T-Mac that ultimately didn't work out...not Morey.

[PKM]

So, Kade, you openly admit that you want this team to basically tank year after year after year until that Lebron shows up? Is that what you're saying?

[thejohnnygold]

@Kade, here is a list of all of Sam Presti's moves over that same period (more or less). Aside from his top 5 picks (Durant 2, Harden 3, Westbrook 4), please point out to me the brilliance he has exhibited. Yeah, he stole Perkins from Boston. He also pried Eric Maynor from Utah (had too many PG's). On the flip side he gave eric bledsoe to LA for a future first (likely to be high). His moves, overall, do not impress me. He scored big on four picks....and remember, Portland screwed up giving him Durant...that should have been Greg Oden going #2.

Here is the link

Whoops, almost forgot Ibaka...Ibaka was a good pick.

[Alituro]

I've liked all that Morey has done so far with what he has to work with, really can't complain about any of his moves. The jury is still out on him though, IMO, whether his advanced metrics plan really works. I'd have to say that this should be his last hoorah, if this assembly of a roster doesn't pan out into something special. But, I'd give him a 2-3 year window from now anyway. As many have stated an unfortunate set of circumstances befell the team when Yao and T-mac suffered through repeated injuries. Morey couldn't control that and advanced metrics, nor the put-your-good-eye-on-it method of recruiting would have foretold these misfortunes. I was impressed with our ability to stay competitive through the transition from those days through today. Now (this summer) he had a clean slate to work with and is assembling an impressive roster and keeping the salaries down to add the next piece. I don't think any team could ask any more from a GM. So, if he finds that next star and him and Harden stay healthy, there is no reason we shouldn't be knocking on the door of the WCFs in a year or two. If not, then maybe see about another GM. Just too soon now to throw the book at him.

The only gripe I have about McHale is his refusal to do more experimenting at the PF slot, unless he's under directive to showcase PP and MM for potential trades. If Lin is tentative because he thinks he'll get benched, well that's his problem and a flaw in his personality, not McHale's fault, many feed off such fears and get motivated by it, as they should be. I like that he didn't mind putting Beverley into the rotation, but what is it about Jones and D-mo that makes him hesitate? If they were any worse than our current PFs, they shouldn't be on a NBA roster. Yes he's lacking in creativity in half court sets and his fast paced offense works well in transition, but needs to start with good D, which we are heavily lacking. Maybe we need to point to our defensive coordinator? I could take or leave McHale honestly. I do like his personality and candor in the post-games though, moreso than RA but not near how much I enjoyed JVG... JVG anyone?

[miketheodio]

Morey has been the official GM for the Rockets for 5.5 years, not 1 year.

you do realize that there have been many teams across sports who have had coaching changes and front office changes and have continued to be mediocre or suck right?

success is often out of control.

[miketheodio]

kade is rationalizing through hindsight.

[thejohnnygold]

kade is rationalizing through hindsight.

It's not even that. His assertions are false and unfounded regarding Morey and his methods. McHale has very little to base judgment from; although, hard to argue for him either. I would say Kade is "irrationalizing" through hindsight.

And Kade, sorry to pile on like this. I actually enjoy the spirit of this conversation and am glad you are pushing others to look deeper at their opinions and convictions. So, thanks for that.

[tombrokeoff]

It was clear that Morey ran the show and that he went to LA for more risk. Believe that was even talked about in these threads before so I decided to google. Yep, Morey is running it his way.

I just copy pasted from recent SI article about Morey where it's shows clear cut powers Morey has and how long until he's either gone or remains with teams (two years)

taking a flyer on the headcase that is White is a BIG DIFFERENCE than being green lighted to tank for years on end.

i have no desire to argue with you, but the only judge of morey that matters is les alexander, and i would have to imagine that morey knows theres a higher likelihood of building a contender through really good draft picks as opposed to mid round ones, but im pretty sure "tanking" was and never has been an option in the eyes of ownership.

[tombrokeoff]

googling for an article, but im most certain les and/or morey have been quoted as attempting to do things a different way. wherein they rebuild w/o tanking. and im pretty sure if it was morey that said it, it was because that was les' orders.

[tombrokeoff]

http://silvaonsports...with-owner-7-2/

The interesting thing, however, is that his precocious general manager, Daryl Morey, would much rather start from scratch and create a clean slate. As Morey, and most fans figure, rebuilding is inevitable, a necessary evil in the landscape of pro sports. But a media report a few months ago illustrated this much, that the team’s current direction of rebuilding while staying competitive – a status Morey himself declared was “unprecedented” a week ago – was all Alexander’s doing. Morey talked about the team’s current challenge of competing while not completely bottoming out, and I’ll add he didn’t sound the least bit enthused about it.