71 replies to this topic

[Jeby]

You don't trade a 23-year-old all-star-potenial player for his inability to mesh with another 23-year-old all star potential player after a quarter of a season. The paint will not be dry on either of these guys' games for another couple years (especially Lin). Remember the last team to pair up two ball-dominant creators? It was the Miami Heat, AKA Reigning NBA Champions. Seriously, the only thing that needs to happen to make them gel better is for Lin to improve his jump shot. Shooting is generally recognized by scouts as the easiest thing for pros to improve if they work hard. And Lin works hard.
If an opportunity comes up to trade for someone who is undeniably better than Lin (say, Kyrie Irving), then you do it.
But trading a guy who hasn't even played an 82-game season because he doesn't "fit" is lunacy.

[blakecouey]

You don't trade a 23-year-old all-star-potenial player for his inability to mesh with another 23-year-old all star potential player after a quarter of a season. The paint will not be dry on either of these guys' games for another couple years (especially Lin). Remember the last team to pair up two ball-dominant creators? It was the Miami Heat, AKA Reigning NBA Champions. Seriously, the only thing that needs to happen to make them gel better is for Lin to improve his jump shot. Shooting is generally recognized by scouts as the easiest thing for pros to improve if they work hard. And Lin works hard.
If an opportunity comes up to trade for someone who is undeniably better than Lin (say, Kyrie Irving), then you do it.
But trading a guy who hasn't even played an 82-game season because he doesn't "fit" is lunacy.

Our opinions depend on whether or not each of us believes he has All Star potential. I don't. If he makes the all star game it's not from his play, it's because of the election process(which is flawed).
I agree he needs to work on his shot, but I'd also like to see him do something he's never done in his short career. That's taking care of the ball, reducing his turnover ratio. At best I think Lin is a serviceable starting PG in the league, occasionally giving you big nights.
Also, let's please not compare Lin and Harden to Wade and James. Both of the latter have been the best player in the league at some point of their career(and LBJ is currently).

[rockets best fan]

I said this coming out of training camp and looking at the season so far has only confirmed what I saw back then. lin is not a starting point guard. a decent backup yes , but a starter no. lin's game is only effective when he can control both the ball and offensive flow. he has no jump shot and can not stay in front of quicker guards defensively. I keep hearing this (his jump shot will come). when? he's been searching for over 20 games now. he turns the ball over way to much for a point guard which means his ball handling still needs much improvement. should we trade him? yes......will we trade him?........no, at least not this year. does he have all star talent.....NO. I agree with blakecouey if he's on the team it won't be because of his talent. lets face it lin is not the long term answer at that position. he is fine for now, but we must find us a better point guard period. what we need to do is see if we can talk phoenix out of dragic in exchange for lin, white and some spare parts. as for cousins......I would love to see the rockets aquire him. while I know he has been a head case the fact still remains the kid has the talent to be the best center in the league, besides I believe we can handle him a lot better than the kings are doing. the combo of him and harden could be special. problem is getting him away from the kings.

[rocketrick]

Our opinions depend on whether or not each of us believes he has All Star potential. I don't. If he makes the all star game it's not from his play, it's because of the election process(which is flawed).
I agree he needs to work on his shot, but I'd also like to see him do something he's never done in his short career. That's taking care of the ball, reducing his turnover ratio. At best I think Lin is a serviceable starting PG in the league, occasionally giving you big nights.
Also, let's please not compare Lin and Harden to Wade and James. Both of the latter have been the best player in the league at some point of their career(and LBJ is currently).

And where are the Jeremy Lin detractors after tonight's game vs. the Knicks?

[tombrokeoff]

i agree with johnny rocket. wait it out a little longer. i mean, trade deadline or offseason at the earliest.

[rocketrick]

Our opinions depend on whether or not each of us believes he has All Star potential. I don't. If he makes the all star game it's not from his play, it's because of the election process(which is flawed).

So how should the All-Star selection be made then? If not all fans, just American fans? Perhaps the NBA commissioner should make the selections? I'm sure the Rockets fans would be fine with seeing as how the NBA commissioner seems to rule against certain Rockets trades from time to time. Maybe just let NBA GM's select the top 12 for each team? Or perhaps the Head Coaches of each NBA team (although there probably will be a handful of players they don't even see in person due to scheduling until after the NBA All-Star Game).

In my opinion, the NBA is doing the right thing by allowing fans, all fans of the NBA, to vote for their favorite players. The fans choose each team's starting 5 by position and the remaining 7 are voted for by NBA Head Coaches. To me this is the wisest and best method of selecting players for the All-Star team. The NBA needs the fans to thrive and to continue growing their fan base.

Sadly, no matter how well Jeremy Lin plays, there will ALWAYS be his detractors that say it (an All-Star slot) was handed to him because of his ethnicity. No matter how many NBA Championships the Rockets might win in the next few years, there will ALWAYS be his detractors demanding his trade for ______________ (fill in the blank no matter how asinine).

Thankifully those at the top of all NBA franchises ignore message boards such as these as each continues to strive to field the most competitive team possible (usually within salary cap limits unless your franchise happens to be in LA or NY for the most part) giving their franchise the best opportunity possible to win the big prize at the end of the season.

I for one am quite thankful they do. How many fans demanded the Dream be traded prior to the Rockets winning back to back NBA Championships. There were quite a few and I have not forgotten how shortsighted and wrong those particular "fans" or "best fans", etc. were.

[rocketrick]

I agree he needs to work on his shot, but I'd also like to see him do something he's never done in his short career. That's taking care of the ball, reducing his turnover ratio. At best I think Lin is a serviceable starting PG in the league, occasionally giving you big nights.
Also, let's please not compare Lin and Harden to Wade and James. Both of the latter have been the best player in the league at some point of their career(and LBJ is currently).

I don't mean to pick on only Blake Couey's comments re: Jeremy Lin. It's just I choose to point out a different Rocket's fan's opinion of Jeremy Lin. I love quoting stats and a most interesting fact is that Lin has actually significantly reduced his turnover ratio from last season. 2011-2012 season, Lin averaged 3.6 turnovers per 26.9 minutes played. In 2012-13 season (only the '12 portion played so far, of course), Lin is averaging 2.7 turnovers per 32.4 minutes played. I can't wait to hear the excuses and "reasons why" that will surely come from Lin detractors after posting this mesage but expect there will be a number including "Harden has the ball in his hands more than Lin when both are on the floor together". Still, the fact remains Harden's turnover ratio is much worse than Lin but nobody seems interested in talking about that. I for one am not interested. I am a huge fan of James Harden but also a huge fan of Jeremy Lin.

Finally, I do agree somewhat with Blake's assertion that it's not really something that is discussion worthy when trying to compare Harden and Lin with the tandem of LeBron and D-Wade. However, just exactly how many other comparisons in the NBA history can any reasonable fan select from with players as young as Harden and Lin? I can't think of any that come to mind and I have been a huge fan of the NBA for a lot of years. LeBron and D-Wade (minus adjusting for 5+ years of NBA experience) vs. Harden and Lin may not be that outlandish of a comparison. The travails of LeBron and D-Wade in their first entire season together is well chronicled and that has turned out exceptionally well so far for them and the Miami Heat organization and all their fans.

[Mario Peña]

I completely agree with Johnny Rocket. Ya'll are crazy to be talking about trading Lin already. Ya'll sound like a bunch of basketball fans on a message board with nothing else to dish on. Look I am not a huge Lin fan but at least give him a year. This is not a fantasy basketball team and at some point like Sir Thursday wrote some stability will be in order. Also, there is no way the Lakers would take Lin, no way, that is a pipe dream. Let's give Lin a year and a half before we start talking trade.

[redfaithful]

My two cents: be patient, keep him, and try different combinations. We've barely played a quarter of the schedule, our head coach was gone for a month, and we have the youngest team in the league. It is way, way too early to be drawing any conclusions.

Fully agree.

[Sir Thursday]

Finally, I do agree somewhat with Blake's assertion that it's not really something that is discussion worthy when trying to compare Harden and Lin with the tandem of LeBron and D-Wade. However, just exactly how many other comparisons in the NBA history can any reasonable fan select from with players as young as Harden and Lin? I can't think of any that come to mind and I have been a huge fan of the NBA for a lot of years. LeBron and D-Wade (minus adjusting for 5+ years of NBA experience) vs. Harden and Lin may not be that outlandish of a comparison. The travails of LeBron and D-Wade in their first entire season together is well chronicled and that has turned out exceptionally well so far for them and the Miami Heat organization and all their fans.

I think a more apt comparison than LeBron/Wade is the Ellis/Curry tandem they had in Golden State for a while. Both great offensive players but not great defenders (though one of them is a ball hawk), and the narrative was that they didn't really work together very well. Now, on the surface that doesn't sound like a particularly promising analogue to have - after all, Ellis was shipped out of Golden State because it just wasn't working for them there. But the difference is both Harden and Lin are much more willing passers than Ellis, who tended to dominate the ball and take inefficient shots. Monta had a great shooter next to him in Curry that he didn't use enough. Harden has a poor shooter next to him right now in Lin, but he has shown he isn't afraid to use him. So provided Lin can make himself a more dangerous threat on the outside, I think they can avoid the same fate as the Warriors' duo.

ST

[Alituro]

I would like to know why everyone is hesitant to get behind bringing Lin in off the bench. I understand the $8.3million is too much for a bench PG argument. But, is the money too much for a Manu Ginobili, he comes off the bench? Last season if OKC were paying Harden the same, would it have been too much for a bench guy? Jason Terry? I'm not saying reduce his minutes, just don't start him. I think his game would benefit by being the #1 option on the second unit. I think once he establishes his "zone" it's hard to bring him out of it, but he needs the full green light to get there.

[Johnny Rocket]

I liked Feigen's tweet:

"Funny thing about rush to judge Jeremy Lin. His 25 NY starts viewed as too small a sample. His 24 Houston starts treated as enough to judge."

I'd be happy to have Lin come of the bench--maybe that's the combination that works best for us--but way too early to say that the experiment with Harden is a failure.

[thejohnnygold]

I'm all for keeping Lin on board for at least this year and next. As mentioned, short-sighted is how we are looking at things right now.

It wasn't too long ago Harden was being discussed as a potential draft "bust" because he flashed signs of brilliance, but couldn't put it together consistently. I feel the same way about Lin. To paraphrase Rahat--you don't have nights like that without having talent.

I like the idea of trying him out with the second unit. Have Harden come in and get things rolling, then lin takes over, and then Harden comes back in and integrates himself into what is already happening. The role he effectively held in OKC, but with the bonus of starting.

I liken Lin to a less athletic Russel Westbrook with a higher B-Ball IQ. He is at his best when shooting more and running the offense and everything else can fall into place after that. Kevin Durant thrives in an offensive system like this--why can't Harden? (Besides the fact that he is no Kevin Durant) Hopefully, Lin can pair this with an increase to his assist/turnover ratio (it's improving, but still needs to be better) and I like what we'll have going in the backcourt.

[ale11]

Lin should be kept at least until next July....really, 24 games are way too little to judge. I think it would be a great idea to try this: start both Lin and Harden and finish the games with both of them on the court (subject to their performances) but try to give them several minutes in between for both of them without the other so both of them can control the offensive flow and keep working on meshing them in practice....maybe they could both play something like 8-10 minutes without the other and give them full control, so you keep them both happy and motivated (also, that would keep Harden from having to carry us 43 minutes a night, remember what he looked like against Portland at Toyota Center in clutch time?)

I know that probably they won't ever be a great fit, but give them a chance to try it before shipping Lin somewhere (not that there are many pretenders right now anyway).

By the way, nice article Michael always backing up opinions with numbers and videos, actual evidence of the arguments. Thumbs up!

[blakecouey]

So how should the All-Star selection be made then? If not all fans, just American fans? Perhaps the NBA commissioner should make the selections? I'm sure the Rockets fans would be fine with seeing as how the NBA commissioner seems to rule against certain Rockets trades from time to time. Maybe just let NBA GM's select the top 12 for each team? Or perhaps the Head Coaches of each NBA team (although there probably will be a handful of players they don't even see in person due to scheduling until after the NBA All-Star Game).

In my opinion, the NBA is doing the right thing by allowing fans, all fans of the NBA, to vote for their favorite players. The fans choose each team's starting 5 by position and the remaining 7 are voted for by NBA Head Coaches. To me this is the wisest and best method of selecting players for the All-Star team. The NBA needs the fans to thrive and to continue growing their fan base.

I dislike the weight placed on fan voting. I don't believe a player that isn't in the top 3 at his position in his conference should get in, regardless of race/popularity. I don't disagree with the entire world being allowed to vote, if you're a fan I believe you should be able to vote. I don't think Stern(or the next commissioner Adam Silver) should be deciding the players either. There is absolutely no argument anyone can make that would show that Lin is worthy of being a starter on an All-Star team at this time. Clearly CP3 is playing better and deserves the WC start. A flip flop on the votes would make it better in my opinion as well. Let the coaches vote on the starters, let fans vote for the remaining 7. The only reason ASG voting isn't a bigger debacle is because of the First/Second/Third team NBA awards and the fact that they are somewhat more credible.

As far as your comment on Lin's turnover ratio, it's still high and your expected "excuse" holds true about Harden controlling the ball for a majority while they're both on the floor. I don't have a chance to look at exact numbers but what is Lin's TO ratio when Harden is on the bench?

[Cooper]

Obviously I'd wait till next year pretty much no harm in waiting to see if they can figure it out. But if they don't improve playing together Lin is the one that goes.

[Jeby]

On the side topic of All-Star selections: I feel a little queasy about the fan voting because of guys like Lin, T-Mac and Iverson and the amount to which guys get in on reputation. But I'm going to reinstate my (highly unpopular) line of reasoning as when I stood behind Stern's decision to punish Popovich--that is that fans are the ultimate purpose of the NBA.
Basketball "stars," just like movie "stars," are not always the most talented people at what they do. But they are the most beloved. They are who people pay to see. So while the MVPs, ROYs, DPOYs, MIPs and All-NBA teams should go on being selected by the 'elites' such as coaches and sports writers, the All-Star game should continue to belong to the fans. For better or for worse.
As Jalen Rose is fond of singing, "Got to give the people...give the people what they want!"

And in response to the folks who say Lin doesn't have All-Star potential...
What is your gold-plated standard for All-Star potential? You're telling me that a 24-year-old (sorry I was wrong on the age earlier) who hasn't even started a full season who can bust out with 30 points and/or 10 assists on any defense on any given night with one of the league's biggest targets on his back does not have All-Star potential in the NBA? Let me throw out some recent "All-Star" guards for you: Jameer Nelson, Mo Williams, Devin Harris, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas. You don't think Jeremy Lin is capable of having a better career than any of those guys? Heck, Joe Johnson is a perennial All-Star and I wouldn't be shocked to see Lin have a better career. Pleasantly surprised, but not shocked.

[rockets best fan]

I dislike the weight placed on fan voting. I don't believe a player that isn't in the top 3 at his position in his conference should get in, regardless of race/popularity. I don't disagree with the entire world being allowed to vote, if you're a fan I believe you should be able to vote. I don't think Stern(or the next commissioner Adam Silver) should be deciding the players either. There is absolutely no argument anyone can make that would show that Lin is worthy of being a starter on an All-Star team at this time. Clearly CP3 is playing better and deserves the WC start. A flip flop on the votes would make it better in my opinion as well. Let the coaches vote on the starters, let fans vote for the remaining 7. The only reason ASG voting isn't a bigger debacle is because of the First/Second/Third team NBA awards and the fact that they are somewhat more credible.

As far as your comment on Lin's turnover ratio, it's still high and your expected "excuse" holds true about Harden controlling the ball for a majority while they're both on the floor. I don't have a chance to look at exact numbers but what is Lin's TO ratio when Harden is on the bench?

I have to disagree about the allstar game. the allstar game is the fans game period. whoever they want to see should be there. don't hate because asian fans vote. I am fine with the current system. now as for the rest of allstar week that's what needs to be revamped. now back to j lin. lin is not an allstar talent wise at this time and may never be and allstar. he may make the allstar team, but don't mistake that for allstar talent. yes he has some flashes of good play, but not often enough for me. I not only want to see improvement against the bobcats, but how about looking good against the thunder or the heat or the spurs for a change. lin is still very young and learning the game but I expected to see more by now and haven't. I have seen some good play, but not the leader I was hoping for.

[rocketrick]

As far as your comment on Lin's turnover ratio, it's still high and your expected "excuse" holds true about Harden controlling the ball for a majority while they're both on the floor. I don't have a chance to look at exact numbers but what is Lin's TO ratio when Harden is on the bench?

If anyone would take just a minute and look at the 2012-13 statistics, I think it would become clear that Harden is getting a pass while Lin is being overly criticized.

Harden 43.1% FG 33.3% 3-Pt 5.2 Assists/39.0 minutes 3.8 Turnovers/39.0 minutes

Lin 40.7% FG 30.3% 3-Pt 6.0 Assists/32.7 minutes 2.8 Turnovers/32.7 minutes

Not only that, but Harden is not nearly as effective in running a fastbreak as Lin is. Oftentimes, Harden finishes at the goal from a pass from Lin or Parsons, et al.

I'm not certain how one would find the stats for each player when the other is on the bench or not dressed to play.It doesn't seem like there have been very many minutes where Lin is on the floor while Harden is on the bench whereas it is common knowledge Harden has significant minutes on the court with Lin on the bench.

It's very disturbing to me that there are a few people on these boards ready to toss Lin overboard and the season is only 1/4 of the way through. Plus the Rockets trade for Harden was AFTER all their pre-season games were played. Just exactly how many practices have the Rockets had since the start of the Season? Very few.

It's OK to be critical of Lin but don't just give Harden a pass when his shooting touch is certainly nothing to brag about at this point. Lin would have easily had another 5-6 assists in the Knicks game had the open shooters (otten it was Harden) made their shots.

[rocketrick]

I dislike the weight placed on fan voting. I don't believe a player that isn't in the top 3 at his position in his conference should get in, regardless of race/popularity. I don't disagree with the entire world being allowed to vote, if you're a fan I believe you should be able to vote. I don't think Stern(or the next commissioner Adam Silver) should be deciding the players either. There is absolutely no argument anyone can make that would show that Lin is worthy of being a starter on an All-Star team at this time. Clearly CP3 is playing better and deserves the WC start. A flip flop on the votes would make it better in my opinion as well. Let the coaches vote on the starters, let fans vote for the remaining 7. The only reason ASG voting isn't a bigger debacle is because of the First/Second/Third team NBA awards and the fact that they are somewhat more credible.

Blake, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on how the All-Star players are selected. I absolutely would abhor the fans selecting the last 7 players. That would cause several worthy players from quite possibly making the All-Start team. I would imagine many top players have a bonus in their contracts for making the All-Star team. I do agree that Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant should be the starting guards for the West All-Star team and I believe enough in the fans of the NBA to vote those two players as starters. For sure Lin would make the All-Star team every year if the fans chose the last 7 players. It's pretty certain that the coaches will select only one of Harden and Lin and it seems pretty clear to me which of those 2 will make the All-Star team (the one with the beard).