26 replies to this topic

[thejohnnygold]

Given your username I'd say this discussion is not going to do much to shift your perception.  If you want to know which Yao I remember best it would be this one: the '06-'07 Utah playoff series.

 

 

Boozer did that the entire series.  He averaged 24.6 ppg and shot 57% from the field.  He abused Yao in every way imaginable.

 

You want to keep focusing on offense--I never complained about that.  His defense was a problem whether you want to believe it or not.  Go check out his +/- numbers from the '04-'05 Dallas playoff series.  When Yao was on the court the only way Houston did well was for the offense to be crazy good because the other team was going to score.  The same was true against Utah.  Yao produced a net +/- of -26 for the series (his only positive games were a +8 and a +2)

 

Did he have fire hydrants strapped to his legs?  It doesn't matter--he might as well have.  It's not his fault--it's just physics.  Acceleration=Force/Mass....Yao had a lot of mass (particularly in his legs).

[Mario Peña]

johnnygold your video (and that game) reminds me of how little respect Yao got from refs. I usually don't complain about the refs but even from what you posted I see bad calls that haunted me for days after that (as did the shots I downed that night, if memory serves me right I was at Doc's on Congress)...

 

That was just a bad matchup and the Lakers, Dallas and even the Spurs might have been better for Yao in a seven game series.

[thejohnnygold]

Fair enough.  I did see some plays in that video where Yao got whistled for nothing.  That doesn't excuse all the times Boozer was able to get around him in 2 quick steps, out rebound him over and over, and block Yao repeatedly at point blank range.  Bad match-up?  Yes.  However, I feel that way about any match-up Yao has with a quicker player.

 

The Dwight argument is not very strong for me as Dwight is giving up 8 inches to Yao (He is 6' 9" - 6' 10" tall depending on the source) and his post arsenal lacked (still lacks) much sophistication.  He would go straight at Yao and play right into his one strength--length.  On the other end, Yao had no trouble shooting over Dwight.  Regarding match-ups--this was a bad one for Dwight.

 

I will freely admit I have never been the world's biggest Yao fan (as a player--off the court he seems like a very nice guy).  I think part of why he didn't get love from the refs was his nice side.  Refs seem to sub-consciously favor the aggressive players.

[YaoMan]

Given your username I'd say this discussion is not going to do much to shift your perception.  If you want to know which Yao I remember best it would be this one: the '06-'07 Utah playoff series.

 

 

Boozer did that the entire series.  He averaged 24.6 ppg and shot 57% from the field.  He abused Yao in every way imaginable.

 

You want to keep focusing on offense--I never complained about that.  His defense was a problem whether you want to believe it or not.  Go check out his +/- numbers from the '04-'05 Dallas playoff series.  When Yao was on the court the only way Houston did well was for the offense to be crazy good because the other team was going to score.  The same was true against Utah.  Yao produced a net +/- of -26 for the series (his only positive games were a +8 and a +2)

 

Did he have fire hydrants strapped to his legs?  It doesn't matter--he might as well have.  It's not his fault--it's just physics.  Acceleration=Force/Mass....Yao had a lot of mass (particularly in his legs).

My perception of him is not delusional and I never said Yao was going to be effective guarding Boozer and a frontline that can shoot mid-range and 3 pt shots. Is Boozer a bad match up for Yao? Hell yes. I am not arguing speed over size in some instances. You are asking a 7'5" center to guard a guy who is an excellent mid range shooter who can put the ball on the floor. And Okur had great range and nullifying Yao's best defensive assets, which is to patrol the lane and block shots on help defense. And +- also accounts for the team on the floor with said player. T-Mac (-28) and Yao (-33) for game 7 vs Dallas in 05 was not all Yao's fault. That series was about being out-coached after Rox took a 2-0 lead on the road and got over confident. Yes his frame and body style was better equipped to guard traditional post men who bang down low. I think we are arguing the same point on that. It would be the same if he was asked to guard Lamar Odom (who coincidentally abused Boozer later that playoff).

My disagreement is the over exaggeration of how slow and cumbersome he was. And yes Utah's front line was a match up nightmare for Yao but it's not like he was shut down like Rahat exaggerates either. Let's see in the Jazz series 28 & 13, 27 & 9, 26 & 14, 20 & 9, 21 & 15, 25 & 6 and 29 & 6. He was never shut down by any opponent in any sense of the matter. His 8 TOs in game 3 & 6 were atrocious and he had issues coming over the top for the jump shots. Again asking Yao to guard Boozer is like asking Hibbert to guard LMA; a complete mismatch.

 

johnnygold your video (and that game) reminds me of how little respect Yao got from refs. I usually don't complain about the refs but even from what you posted I see bad calls that haunted me for days after that (as did the shots I downed that night, if memory serves me right I was at Doc's on Congress)...

 

That was just a bad matchup and the Lakers, Dallas and even the Spurs might have been better for Yao in a seven game series.

Agreed. For a perennial all star, Yao never got any calls and was constantly hacked without any benefit of the whistle. I vividly remember that game 7 (it was beers for me) and thinking how this was the worst possible match up for the Rox because Utah's frontline all had great range and good speed at their position. (Boozer, Okur - mostly range, Millsap vs. Yao, Hayes, Juwan Howard - not exactly the fastest frontline!)

My argument has never been that players like Nowitzki and Boozer doesn't give Yao fits because of their ability to put the ball on the floor and shoot from range (Yao should never be guarding those players anyways). My argument is he's more agile and a little faster than people make him out to be and he was really never shut down by a Diaw or Josh Howard fronting him like Rahat like to exaggerate. I just wanted to dispell those myths and justify his number 1 pick was a sound choice.  I get it - his defense on quick PFs is awful but he's a 7'5" center who should be guarding big post players. But his skill set from that big of a man is unheard of and hasn't been seen since. Would it work in the modern NBA? Most unlikely unless utilized properly by Popovich or (Larry) Brown in a complex system. Had he come out in the 80s in the age of low post and centers, would he have been highly successful? Most likely.  Was he successful in his stint with Houston? I like to think so:

Career avgs of 19pt, 9.2reb, 1.9blks, 52% FG, 83% FT
Before he was drafted, Rox were 28-54 and after only had one losing season in his time with Rox with 4 50-win seasons

Leader of Win Share 4 of his 7 semi healthy seasons (11.4, 8.6, 8.3, 10.6)

5 All NBA seasons (2 2nd teams, 3 3rd team)

Can he guard a nimble PF? Efff no! No delusions of that! Maybe the question is, should he?

[Mario Peña]

Yao versus the Spurs that year was unstoppable on both ends and Bynum would have been schooled. Sloan had the perfect team with his jump shooting center, Williams as the penetrator which lead Yao to take on a role many centers would have had problems with, a quick and strong midrange shooting (with a high arching shot) power forward in his prime. To me it wasn't on Yao that much as much as it was on the superior roster construction of the Jazz not that the Rockets was bad but at that time the Jazz were a well oiled machine.

 

Also, I do agree with you on Yao and his ref game. He was too nice and it was not in his cultural background to argue with refs perhaps, who knows. Maybe Yao played the game as it ideally should have been played with not much aggressive lobbying of refs but in the real world that's how the NBA works and as was often the case the realities of this world caught up to Yao unfortunately.

 

I was and still am a Yao fan so take that for what it's worth. I was never a McGrady fan.

[YaoMan]

Fair enough.  I did see some plays in that video where Yao got whistled for nothing.  That doesn't excuse all the times Boozer was able to get around him in 2 quick steps, out rebound him over and over, and block Yao repeatedly at point blank range.  Bad match-up?  Yes.  However, I feel that way about any match-up Yao has with a quicker player.

 

The Dwight argument is not very strong for me as Dwight is giving up 8 inches to Yao (He is 6' 9" - 6' 10" tall depending on the source) and his post arsenal lacked (still lacks) much sophistication.  He would go straight at Yao and play right into his one strength--length.  On the other end, Yao had no trouble shooting over Dwight.  Regarding match-ups--this was a bad one for Dwight.

 

I will freely admit I have never been the world's biggest Yao fan (as a player--off the court he seems like a very nice guy).  I think part of why he didn't get love from the refs was his nice side.  Refs seem to sub-consciously favor the aggressive players.

I don't think the height was the issue with Dwight match up as Boozer is around the same height. It's more of his post arsenal with no jump shot and no sophistication as you alluded to. And yes, Dwight played right into Yao's strength, which reminds me of something Shaq said.  Let me go dig that up.

Here's an awesome clip of Shaq on Yao:



"You know what, he's a big guy, I got to take it to his head so I went with a little oopsie do finger roll and he blocked my first 3 shots. And I was like now I gotta do something else."

Shaq, for all his flaws, is probably smarter than most people give him credit for.

[YaoMan]

Yao versus the Spurs that year was unstoppable on both ends and Bynum would have been schooled. Sloan had the perfect team with his jump shooting center, Williams as the penetrator which lead Yao to take on a role many centers would have had problems with, a quick and strong midrange shooting (with a high arching shot) power forward in his prime. To me it wasn't on Yao that much as much as it was on the superior roster construction of the Jazz not that the Rockets was bad but at that time the Jazz were a well oiled machine.

 

Also, I do agree with you on Yao and his ref game. He was too nice and it was not in his cultural background to argue with refs perhaps, who knows. Maybe Yao played the game as it ideally should have been played with not much aggressive lobbying of refs but in the real world that's how the NBA works and as was often the case the realities of this world caught up to Yao unfortunately.

 

I was and still am a Yao fan so take that for what it's worth. I was never a McGrady fan.

Accurate assessment and agree completely. I loved T-Macs natural abilities and sheer overwhelming talent. Disliked his heart and nonchalant approach to the game. I always thought that if T-mac loved hoops (like he did baseball) and had the Kobe-like work ethic that the Rox should have been in the WCF or even the finals a couple of those years...