76 replies to this topic

[bboley24]

I am not a state guy but I feel as if it should have it's own discussion of James taking a Russel Westbrook approach to the game. I play harden at the 1 spot on NBA 2k and have a blast with it!

[slick shoes]

I am not a state guy but I feel as if it should have it's own discussion of James taking a Russel Westbrook approach to the game. I play harden at the 1 spot on NBA 2k and have a blast with it!

 

I don't know that Harden will ever finish as strong at the rim as Westbrook. It seems like Westbrook plays with a HUGE chip on his shoulder while Harden feels like we should feel lucky to watch him in action. 

[Stephen]

The difference is Westbrook rushes the ball up the court,trying to attack before defenses are set.

Harden ambles up the court w/the ball,often using 6-8 seconds of shot clock just getting across half-court,allowing defenses to get set.

This is the primary reason I can't see D'Antoni making Harden the PG,as Rahat suggested in his hiring column.

D'Antoni was famous for his "7 seconds or less" taking a shot philosophy,Harden takes 7 seconds just getting the ball across half-court.

[Willk]

I don't know that Harden will ever finish as strong at the rim as Westbrook. It seems like Westbrook plays with a HUGE chip on his shoulder while Harden feels like we should feel lucky to watch him in action.

Harden will not finish at the rim like Westbrook because he is not the athlete that Westbrook is. Westbrook is the 2nd best athlete in the NBA. He can jump over people and sprint by them with little effort.
Harden's game is completely dependent on creating angles. He is quick but not fast and he definitely is not the leaper that Westbrook.
It is really hard to compare two players whose skill sets are so dissimilar.
Westbrook has played out of control offensively and defensively his entire career until the last 3 weeks. Many have considered him selfish prior to game 2 against SA. I think if Westbrook was on the rockets, many here would complain about the number of 3 point shots he takes despite being a bad shooter and his mental lapses on d when he is not gambling for steals. Each player has his warts.

[thejohnnygold]

Harden will not finish at the rim like Westbrook because he is not the athlete that Westbrook is. Westbrook is the 2nd best athlete in the NBA. He can jump over people and sprint by them with little effort.
Harden's game is completely dependent on creating angles. He is quick but not fast and he definitely is not the leaper that Westbrook.
It is really hard to compare two players whose skill sets are so dissimilar.
Westbrook has played out of control offensively and defensively his entire career until the last 3 weeks. Many have considered him selfish prior to game 2 against SA. I think if Westbrook was on the rockets, many here would complain about the number of 3 point shots he takes despite being a bad shooter and his mental lapses on d when he is not gambling for steals. Each player has his warts.

 

This is all true.  Still, some sins are more easily forgiven.  Westbrook, as far as I know, has never been accused of lack of effort or apathy.  The guy clearly takes winning and losing personally.

 

I remember a while back (2-3 years), Scotty Brooks was defending Westbrook to the media who were similarly criticizing his play.  He was quick to shoot them down saying Westbrook was the engine that made their team go, he loved everything he did, and wouldn't change a thing.

 

After that, I started watching him differently and I see what Brooks saw.  Yes, he turns the ball over, makes bad passes, takes ill-advised shots, and all manner of things that might make a coach cringe.  However, what he does do is scramble defenses on a regular basis creating opportunities for his team mates to shine.  Their rebounding is as much about the guys going after the ball as it is about the 2-3 defenders who were out of position to box out because of Westbrook.

 

He still sports a 2.5/1 assist to turnover ratio despite his high turnover rate.  Again, his chaos gets guys open looks.

 

His effort is infectious.  His intensity, passion, or whatever you want to call it make guys play harder.  You can't be on the court with him and slack because the disparity would be so obvious.  Plus, he might murder you with laser beams from his eyes.

 

Ultimately, James Harden's skill set is built around a largely individual concept.  He is a great scorer.  I don't think he is, nor can be, a great PG.  It's just not the way he has developed his game and at this point I don't think he can morph into a true PG.

 

My hope is that Morey forgets about going after Al Horford and asks 'Antoni (are we making this official?) for a list of PG's who can run his offense.  Go get one of those and tell Harden to get on board.

 

Here's hoping Montrezl Harrell is watching tape of Amare Stoudemire back in Phoenix and getting ready to play that role.  It's his for the taking.

[slick shoes]

This is all true.  Still, some sins are more easily forgiven.  Westbrook, as far as I know, has never been accused of lack of effort or apathy.  The guy clearly takes winning and losing personally.

 

I remember a while back (2-3 years), Scotty Brooks was defending Westbrook to the media who were similarly criticizing his play.  He was quick to shoot them down saying Westbrook was the engine that made their team go, he loved everything he did, and wouldn't change a thing.

 

After that, I started watching him differently and I see what Brooks saw.  Yes, he turns the ball over, makes bad passes, takes ill-advised shots, and all manner of things that might make a coach cringe.  However, what he does do is scramble defenses on a regular basis creating opportunities for his team mates to shine.  Their rebounding is as much about the guys going after the ball as it is about the 2-3 defenders who were out of position to box out because of Westbrook.

 

He still sports a 2.5/1 assist to turnover ratio despite his high turnover rate.  Again, his chaos gets guys open looks.

 

His effort is infectious.  His intensity, passion, or whatever you want to call it make guys play harder.  You can't be on the court with him and slack because the disparity would be so obvious.  Plus, he might murder you with laser beams from his eyes.

 

Ultimately, James Harden's skill set is built around a largely individual concept.  He is a great scorer.  I don't think he is, nor can be, a great PG.  It's just not the way he has developed his game and at this point I don't think he can morph into a true PG.

 

My hope is that Morey forgets about going after Al Horford and asks 'Antoni (are we making this official?) for a list of PG's who can run his offense.  Go get one of those and tell Harden to get on board.

 

Here's hoping Montrezl Harrell is watching tape of Amare Stoudemire back in Phoenix and getting ready to play that role.  It's his for the taking.

 

I have remove the 's from my keyboar as they are no longer of any use 

[thejohnnygold]

I have remove the 's from my keyboar as they are no longer of any use 

 

Rockets Best Fan still has my favorite nickname for him: Pringles

 

[majik19]

Harden will not finish at the rim like Westbrook because he is not the athlete that Westbrook is. Westbrook is the 2nd best athlete in the NBA. He can jump over people and sprint by them with little effort

Don't want to derail, but just wondering who is number 1? I would vote for Giannis Antekoumpo, personally. 

 

I think Harden could play PG, but not in a 7 seconds or less offense. He would need someone else (Rondo?) to get the ball to him in the triple threat position where he can make a quick decision. Of the free agent point guards, Rondo is the best fit for 7 seconds or less, but he is anywhere near not the shooter that Nash was.

 

@johnny - you think Harrell is Amare? I think Capela could be. The problem is I don't think either can shoot as well as Amare did from midrange, but both could learn to pick & dive like Amare.  

 

My biggest fear with D'Antoni (of many) - can he succeed without a great point guard like Nash? Great vision, great shooter, very intelligent... not many of those guys around. 

[majik19]

Not to change the subject, but I'd love Tyler Ulis playing point guard for us in a D'Antoni offense. I don't care if he's 5'10 in shoes. I think he can be every bit as good as Isiah Thomas, and a better passer.

[Willk]

Don't want to derail, but just wondering who is number 1? I would vote for Giannis Antekoumpo, personally.

I think Harden could play PG, but not in a 7 seconds or less offense. He would need someone else (Rondo?) to get the ball to him in the triple threat position where he can make a quick decision. Of the free agent point guards, Rondo is the best fit for 7 seconds or less, but he is anywhere near not the shooter that Nash was.

@johnny - you think Harrell is Amare? I think Capela could be. The problem is I don't think either can shoot as well as Amare did from midrange, but both could learn to pick & dive like Amare.

My biggest fear with D'Antoni (of many) - can he succeed without a great point guard like Nash? Great vision, great shooter, very intelligent... not many of those guys around.

Lebron is still easily my number 1. Giannis is definitely a top 5.
I agree with your concerns about D'Antoni. Phoenix had the number 1 offense with Nash, but Nash also had the number 1 offense without D'Antoni in Dallas.

[redfaithful]

Of the free agent point guards, Rondo is the best fit for 7 seconds or less, but he is anywhere near not the shooter that Nash was.

 

Brandon Jennings?

[thejohnnygold]

Don't want to derail, but just wondering who is number 1? I would vote for Giannis Antekoumpo, personally. 

 

I think Harden could play PG, but not in a 7 seconds or less offense. He would need someone else (Rondo?) to get the ball to him in the triple threat position where he can make a quick decision. Of the free agent point guards, Rondo is the best fit for 7 seconds or less, but he is anywhere near not the shooter that Nash was.

 

@johnny - you think Harrell is Amare? I think Capela could be. The problem is I don't think either can shoot as well as Amare did from midrange, but both could learn to pick & dive like Amare.  

 

My biggest fear with D'Antoni (of many) - can he succeed without a great point guard like Nash? Great vision, great shooter, very intelligent... not many of those guys around. 

 

I'm not saying Harrell is as good as Amare at his best.  Amare was a better leaper and also had a solid mid-range game that made the pick n roll work so well for them.  If teams dropped off to protect the rim Nash would just set him up for an easy 15 footer that he had obviously been practicing forever.

 

I think Harrell can play the same role and has enough spring in his step to deliver in that role.  I also think his shooting and bball IQ are under-rated.  Watching his RGV video makes me think he has a lot of promise.

 

I like Capela a lot too, but he lacks the fire and tenacity that Harrell brings (and this team needs so very, very much).  I see no reason they can't play together.  I want Capela to put some muscle on and play center more than PF.  Harrell and Capela could turn into a quality front court pairing given the chance.

 

My concern is that chance isn't coming with Les calling the shots now and Antoni--he's not the guy you hire for a rebuild which means we will probably be shopping for veterans this Summer to put ahead of them on the depth chart. 

[rockets best fan]

@JG

I agree with you Harden is not now nor ever will be a good ball handler/decision maker therefore unqualified to be PG. he is a scorer, simply as that. he doesn't play defense, rebounds only when the mood strikes him( which isn't to often) and is low energy any time he doesn't have the ball in his hands. Westbrook has a relentless motor, Harden is a relentless headache  if Harden had Westbrook's heart he would be MVP every year. I don't have any faith that Pringles will change the way Harden plays. in fact Harden may become worse

[thejohnnygold]

@JG

I agree with you Harden is not now nor ever will be a good ball handler/decision maker therefore unqualified to be PG. he is a scorer, simply as that. he doesn't play defense, rebounds only when the mood strikes him( which isn't to often) and is low energy any time he doesn't have the ball in his hands. Westbrook has a relentless motor, Harden is a relentless headache  if Harden had Westbrook's heart he would be MVP every year. I don't have any faith that Pringles will change the way Harden plays. in fact Harden may become worse

 

I have no idea what version of Harden we are going to get next season (who does!?!).  I agree with you that Harden could be the league's MVP if he wanted to.  That's what bugs me.  Much like the old adage you can't teach height, you also cannot teach heart.

 

Heart is a funny thing because everyone thinks they have it.  The thing is, it becomes obvious who does and does not when push comes to shove.  Harden can say whatever he wants, blame whatever he wants...it doesn't matter.  His actions and play speak volumes.

 

I sometimes wonder what we, as a group, would say about him were he on another team (especially one of our hated rivals).

 

His numbers are hyper-inflated due to playing at a high pace (7th), playing 38 mpg, and with an astronomical 32% USG rate.  There are probably 15-20 guys in the league who would post equal, if not better, numbers given the same opportunities....and those guys might even play some defense.

 

The only thing that shields him from criticism of his horrendous shot selection is the 10 fta's he gets per game from bulling his way into the lane and bashing his arms into anyone he can find while pretending like he's trying to "get a shot off".

 

He's a turnover machine who gets way too much credit for "setting up his teammates".  You're bound to rack up assists when you're the only guy who gets to hold the ball.  Just passing to a spot up shooter who a defender has sagged off of and watching him launch a three and, essentially, notching an assist 1 out of every 3 times you do that does not make you a point guard.

 

(Cue Crocodile Dundee voice): That's not an assist.  These are assists...

 

 

He's an ISO specialist who clearly grew up watching the likes of Kobe, AI, and Arenas.  Much like the traditional PF and Center, he is becoming an NBA dinosaur.

 

If he really cared about winning a title he wouldn't have quibbled over a few million dollars (spread out over years) and stayed in OKC to help dominate the league.  How many Finals appearances does OKC have if Harden stayed?  Instead, he opted to come to Houston because he wanted to be top dog and that wasn't going to happen in OKC because he truly was 3rd best.

 

He's just another Carmelo.  His name will go down in NBA history the same way Dominique Wilkins, Reggie Miller, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, or Chris Webber have--and that's if he's lucky.  It is looking more and more likely that he will fall into the Baron Davis, Gilbert Arenas, Stephon Marbury, Stevie Francis, and so on group.

 

Am I wrong in thinking that's how we would judge him were he not wearing the ketchup and mustard?  The thing is, I don't think any of those criticisms are unfair nor are they untrue.  I think it's time we stop pretending Harden is something that he is not.

 

[thenit]

Don't want to derail, but just wondering who is number 1? I would vote for Giannis Antekoumpo, personally. 

 

I think Harden could play PG, but not in a 7 seconds or less offense. He would need someone else (Rondo?) to get the ball to him in the triple threat position where he can make a quick decision. Of the free agent point guards, Rondo is the best fit for 7 seconds or less, but he is anywhere near not the shooter that Nash was.

 

@johnny - you think Harrell is Amare? I think Capela could be. The problem is I don't think either can shoot as well as Amare did from midrange, but both could learn to pick & dive like Amare.  

 

My biggest fear with D'Antoni (of many) - can he succeed without a great point guard like Nash? Great vision, great shooter, very intelligent... not many of those guys around. 

If its anything D'antoni can do is to develop a PG. He made Lin a millionaire in his system.

[rockets best fan]

If its anything D'antoni can do is to develop a PG. He made Lin a millionaire in his system.

that scares the heck out of me. Lin is a FA this summer. if the Rockets bring him back I will pass out.

[majik19]

that scares the heck out of me. Lin is a FA this summer. if the Rockets bring him back I will pass out.

The biggest reason i don't want him back is because I don't want the Houston media and this forum to freak out and report/comment on everything about him. 

 

EDIT: Oh yeah, and that awful hair. 

Edited by majik19, 30 May 2016 - 06:39 PM.

[rockets best fan]

The biggest reason i don't want him back is because I don't want the Houston media and this forum to freak out and report/comment on everything about him. 

 

EDIT: Oh yeah, and that awful hair. 

the biggest reason I don't want him back is  he can't maintain consistent play and every blue moon when he does have a good game Lin nation thinks it's the next coming of Michael Jordan

[thejohnnygold]

I think there is a good chance Morey goes after Eric Gordon if Harden is to be the PG.  He can likely be had on a team friendly contract due to his injury woes and if he is healthy then it's a home run.

 

I don't think Lin is leaving Charlotte.  He left money on the table to go play there and will likely stay the course.

 

I think last night's OKC-GS game showed why a true point guard is crucial.  When defenses collapse the lane the way GS does it creates lots of turnovers/bad shots when you're just giving the ball to your "star" and telling him to create something (basically, launch a contested three or drive the lane).  If your star can dribble like Nash or Curry then it's fine.  If not, you're in trouble.

 

Ish Smith would be a nice acquisition for this reason....assuming Harden would give up the rock. 

[slick shoes]

I think there is a good chance Morey goes after Eric Gordon if Harden is to be the PG.  He can likely be had on a team friendly contract due to his injury woes and if he is healthy then it's a home run.

 

I don't think Lin is leaving Charlotte.  He left money on the table to go play there and will likely stay the course.

 

I think last night's OKC-GS game showed why a true point guard is crucial.  When defenses collapse the lane the way GS does it creates lots of turnovers/bad shots when you're just giving the ball to your "star" and telling him to create something (basically, launch a contested three or drive the lane).  If your star can dribble like Nash or Curry then it's fine.  If not, you're in trouble.

 

Ish Smith would be a nice acquisition for this reason....assuming Harden would give up the rock. 

 

I think adding Gordon is a bad move. Similar to the Lawson trade, we would likely alter our offense to carve out a few possessions for Gordon. Then, when he goes down in Eric Gordon fashion, we are left with a black hole of offense and on/off the ball play that never manifested.