65 replies to this topic

[thejohnnygold]

I posted this in the "What's wrong with Jeremy Lin" thread, so if you have read it there then no need to read it twice.

 

If not, please do read this and understand it's importance.  It is easy to dismiss because it seems so harmless, but that does not absolve us of the responsibility to do and act right.

 

William Golding wrote a short tale (with a fitting titular acronym), Lord Of the Flies.  In this story he delves deeply into a powerful motif and commentary on humanity: us and them.

 

Here is the quoted post:

 

LOF.  Lin Only Fan.  It seems innocent enough.  It describes exactly what it is.  Like so many other words (or in this case acronyms); it's not the arrangement of letters that define it, but the meaning and purpose people put into it.  The term has most definitely gone beyond a descriptive term to a derogatory one that condescends and marginalizes a group of people.  This is not acceptable.

 

I have used it unwittingly myself.  Recently, it was pointed out to me that the term is offensive.  At first I balked at the idea.  I have since come to realize that the term, while itself innocent, is not wielded with innocence.  I could run off a litany of other terms that started off "innocent", and we all know how that ends.

 

Today, I propose that we recognize bigotry when we see it and nip it in the bud.  From this point forward the term "LOF" is no different than any other derogatory word, or term, used to describe a group, sect, race, or religion.  I regret that myself, and others, inadvertently stooped to that level.  We all know better.  We all are better then that.  It ends here.

 

I'm not looking to instill shame in anyone.  I think we will all be happy to leave the past in the past and move forward into continued discussions about Jeremy Lin and his shooting, passing, salary, usage, haircut, life choices, boxers/briefs, and use of social media--all very important things that everyone, except me, is wrong about

 

I will leave the comments section open.  If anyone has a thought they would like to share feel free.  I think now is a good time to be open and honest.  Jeremy Lin isn't going anywhere anytime soon so it is best that we all find a place of mutual respect and understanding.

 

Thanks for reading, everyone.

 

JG

 

 

[BrentYen]

Nice post, I've changed my signature accordingly...Although I know LOF is a neutral term to me, but I guess it is been used too negatively for 2+ years around the internet. Thanks for the change and that is why you are one of the well-respected mod/posters here I think.

[thejohnnygold]

Thanks, BrentYen.  I actually thought about your old signature while I was writing that.  I like your new signature.  I'm hoping that maybe we can all find some common ground through this topic.

 

There are so many sweeping generalizations.  The truth is we don't know much about each other besides our interest in basketball.  Hopefully, we can learn to focus more on what we have in common and less on our differences in perspective and opinion.  That doesn't mean agreeing on everything--that will never happen .  Respect is all that is needed.

[CanSayNOTC]

I've always wanted to banish, or day I say, censor polarizing labels such as LOF and LOH because their use are not conducive to a good atmosphere or constructive discussion. Labels can unfairly marginalize people, ie with race, stigmas, and other biases. 

 

I applaud this effort not because I am here to defend Lin fans, myself included, but because I'm tired of the endless debates. Alot of these threads are bloated because people feel slighted, get defensive, or troll. Many are simply immature and unreasonable. These should be treated as isolated incidences and dealt with without marginalizing others. I simply gloss-over them and hope no one engages them. 

 

I find the Lin-fan base/phenomenon fascinating and it would be an interesting college course topic. An interesting psychology and mix of sports, religion, race, etc.

 

Edit:clarity

Edited by CanSayNOTC, 09 February 2014 - 12:11 AM.

[datruth]

Thanks, Johnny Gold

There is an old saying.

That you can tell what on the inside of a man by what comes from his mouth.

I thank you for words of wisdom, during it all.

good luck rockets

[dood]

So JG is Ralph and the Lin fans are Piggy. Anyone remember what happens to Piggy?

[Steven]

So lets block the use of the word Rockets or Asik or basketball as well. The term is not derogatory it's how someone uses it. On a sail boat, you can hear the N word, it means center mast of the ship. B*tch is still used in dog breeding. In England, the f word is still slang for a cigarette. PC lead to the death of over a dozen military personal at Fort Hood. PC should have no place in this world. If you don't like what someone has to say, hash it out with that person. Yes, people should show respect, but people to be offended offer a non-curse word, non-personal attack, grow a pair, man up and quit playing the victim BS.

Im all for honest civil debate, and if that term is used towards a singluar person, and meant to be offensive, then yes the moderators should talk to that one person. If it is being used to categorize then it should be on a case by case situation. It's not like someone is calling someone else mf'er or using any racial slangs.

[PhillyCheese]

Thanks Johnny for getting it.  I appreciate the efforts.  

[CanSayNOTC]

Sorry, I stirred the pot a bit by throwing out "censorship". That was me playing devil's advocate, not a stance from JG. His post is a good sounding board for further discussion, as I think he intended it to be. It hasn't gone unnoticed to me that JG didn't lay new ground rules but instead voiced his opinion. Good decision.

 

I think alot can be learned if we first define LOF and acknowledge its common usage isn't good for quality discussions? Is there a negative connotation? How often is it used in a demeaning or accusatory manner, compared to its objective use? What kind of feelings does it illicit? And finally does its use bring any added value or quality to discussions?

[BrentYen]

To my understanding, LOF was defined to represent ppl who, 1) are Lin fanatics, 2) do now know bball 3) wish Lin successful even if his team fail, 4) are race driven fans, 5) thinks Lin is a bball God, 6) thinks Lin can do no wrong both on and off the court, etc.....

It is often been used when a debate of Lin goes to a point that no one can provides more evidence, stats or even speculations, etc. So ppl (from both sides) start to use LOH and LOF to discredit the ppl from the other side. I would say majority of the debates ended with this process. 

 

Therefore, I don think there are any objective use of this term in general. 

 

BTW, about the value or quality of a discussion, even if LOF is just a neutral team (I personally think it is), it is just a term, like a name. It does not increase anything like value or quality IMO.

[thejohnnygold]

So JG is Ralph and the Lin fans are Piggy. Anyone remember what happens to Piggy?

 

Not at all the intent.  This is the kind of thing Jack would have said--creating a monster that doesn't exist to try and manipulate others.  It's not what we are here to do and doesn't help.

 

To clarify, I am open to the continued use of the term LOF, but only if we reach a consensus on the matter and people agree, and abide, to using it as an objective point of reference and not as slander.

 

As has been brought up above--what value does it add?  Can we not indicate a point of reference (such as the list BrentYen posted above) without using a term that is so loosely defined?  Like Brent said, there is no objective use for the term.  Which is why I am proposing we just drop it altogether.

 

If we feel like a poster is being Lin-centric in their analysis and focus then we can say that without dismissively saying, "Whatever...you're just a LOF."

 

Would anyone think it is ok to refer to Rocket fans as ignorant backwoods, hillbilly, rednecks who believe anything they are told and worship Morey like a God?  Would anyone want their opinion/point of view dismissed so readily, and be pigeon-holed so completely, just because they are a Rockets fan and don't agree with another person's perspective?  Often, the term "LOF" is used to a similar effect.

 

It's not about censorship.  It is about everyone being respectful of everyone else--even those who share different worldviews from us.  We can, and will, continue to disagree, shake our heads, and think each other wacky for not seeing things in the same way.

[Steven]

What is wrong with being an ignorant backwoods inbred hillbilly redneck? Just cause my family tree doesn't fork makes me special.

Edited by Steven, 09 February 2014 - 11:56 PM.

[PhillyCheese]

I find any kinds of labelling troublesome, even the ones that are positive.  The reason is it is convenient and lazy and soon becomes too narrow.  For example, Asians in America are considered the "model minority".  Yet there is a ton of evidence which suggests that some Asians such as Hmongs are not exactly earning about the average or getting better than avg education.  Are they not Asian anymore?  Similarly, there are many from Nigeria that are doing above the average, are they not the model since they are not Asians?

 

My point is that any time you start generalising, and labelling is a generalisation, you go down that slippery slope.  Whatever the original intent, I think the term has started getting to a racial or religeous direction - probably more racial, since that is more observable by looking at Lin - that really serves no purpose other than to inflame.

 

If you want this site to be about intelligent, passonate discussion, then one way to start is to get rid of the lazy characterisations.

[datruth]

The leader always sets the pace.

i am thankful that one of the leader of this site recognized that an divide fan base is not a good thing.

It's time to start talking about an championship in h- town.

 

go rockets

[Drew in Abilene]

While my personal rules of discourse are by no means universal, nor would I demand everyone act upon these principles, I believe that language that is derogatory should be identified by the people to which such language is directed. I've been a Rockets fan since I was old enough to understand the basics of basketball, which means I haven't had "LOF" directed at me. Also, as a White guy, my belief that he's a good player who I want to stick around Houston in the future has never been simplified to me liking him because he's Asian-American.

 

I say all this to say, since I've never experienced the term as a way to demean me, I choose to take other posters' word for it that their experience with it has been negative. My respect for other posters leads me to choose not to use the term anymore. That's a no-brainer for me on this forum since we've been asked not to do so here. But it also means I will make sure not to use it elsewhere. Once again, this is just what I'm thinking about the situation, and my personal principles aren't prescriptive for everybody.

 

Last, I don't know how often I've used the term in this forum, but I want to apologize to anyone who was offended when/if I did. My intentions were not for it to be derogatory, but intentions are not what matters in this situation. I'm sorry for how my words could have or did negatively affect people on this board. 

[bboley24]

This is such an odd subject.  This board has created a word, then deemed it not PC leading to it's banishment and those that use it.

Frickin' cool.

[thejohnnygold]

This is such an odd subject.  This board has created a word, then deemed it not PC leading to it's banishment and those that use it.

Frickin' cool.

 

We did not invent LOF (as far as I know).

 

(Sorry, bboley24--I'm not meaning to attack you, but your post has elicited this response).

 

"Politically correct" has been brought up more than once now.  This issue has nothing to do with being politically correct.  I think that is an intellectually lazy perspective.  It lumps everything into a conveniently defined, and dismissed, pile.  It makes it a "you" problem and frees each individual from looking inside themselves.  "I can't say this because it offends you".

 

Actually, it's because the term is being used as slander--that is why.  If there is a direction to point disdain for the "censorship" look no further than every single person who has used the term LOF to deride, diminish, or dismiss a person on this board.  It is the cumulative result of that.  We aren't banning a word from the forum--we're taking a stand against bigotry.  Let's not confuse one for the other.

 

There is nothing to be gained from being politically correct at Red94.  The site is driven by it's own set of core values and principles.  My left pinky toe has more conscience and moral fortitude than political correctness has ever dreamed of.  My left pinky toe says the term LOF is being used in a way that is not up to our standards.

 

This has been brought up because of a moral decision--not a political one.  We do not condone the use of name-calling here; especially when it is negative in nature.  How is the use of LOF as slander any different?  Much like a knife, or a gun, a word is not dangerous in and of itself.  It is how they are used that makes them harmful.

 

I have stated my preference that we stop using the term as I think it encompasses too large of a grey area and contributes little to any discussion.  This isn't like pornography--where apparently we all know it when we see it (thanks Potter Stewart!).  It would be near impossible to effectively moderate the use of LOF.

 

If anyone feels like their first amendment rights are being infringed upon too greatly do speak up.  Nobody is getting banned for using LOF (at least not yet ).

 

I know that this post was redundant in its message, but it is important to me that everyone is clear on what we're discussing here, what type of decision we are making, and why we are making it.

[plaster]

Did you know that a whopping amount of "LOF"s refer to Lin, as "The first Asian player in NBA history"? It's misinformation like this that makes a lot of people not take their opinions seriously. The other larger myth is that McHale and Morey, are scheming to keep Lin down. I seriously laugh when I read comments like that. Why would you pay someone $25mm in order to keep him down? Best way to keep him down would be to either cut him or bury him behind Brooks in the rotation. A lot of his fans literally bring the criticism on themselves. Just an opinion.

[timetodienow1234567]

I might be mistaken but isn't he the first Asian American?

[BrentYen]

The forth I think, following Wataru Misaka,  Raymond Townsend, and  Rex Walters, per Wikipedia.