3 replies to this topic

[thejohnnygold]

I was sitting here thinking about the NBA elite and was considering how many "great" players there are--star players!  Then I considered how many actually make a difference in the win column.  How many of these stars can strap a team on their backs and force wins even when they are surrounded by marginal talent.

 

The list I came up with is short.  Granted, some players have not had to prove they can do that since they have always played with other talent (Steph Curry).  Here's what I came up with:

 

LeBron (duh)

 

Harden (he's done it multiple years with multiple squads)

 

Kemba Walker (seriously, go look at his rosters over the years.  Now, ask yourself how many W's do they get without him?  I know there are losing seasons in there, but this would be a top lottery team every year without him)

 

Russell Westbrook (This one is tough.  Does Oladipo count?  He was average at best in OKC.  How much does Steven Adams count?  I don't know, but I feel like he counts...)

 

That's it.

 

Notable players who are intentionally not on this list:

 

Anthony Davis

DeMarcus Cousins

Blake Griffin

Damian Lillard

Kyrie Irving

Karl-Anthony Towns

Melo (LOL)

D-Wade (correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think he had to ever drag a bad roster on his back and succeeded.)

Bradley Beal

John Wall

DeRozan

Kevin Love

Aldridge

Donovan Mitchell

Chris Paul (What!?!?!?!?)

 

*Jimmy Butler (I don't know where to put him...or Paul George for that matter)

 

Players who are excluded due to circumstance:

 

Durant

Curry

Thompson

Embiid

Antetokounmpo

Kawhi Leonard (One could argue he belongs up top...we just haven't seen it)

Oladipo (we'll see...)

Fox/Hield (I think there is a bright future here, but not sure either could carry a team alone)

Devin Booker (still young...we'll see)

 

I recognize this is HIGHLY subjective--which is part of the fun.  What does everyone else think?

 

My point is it is a very short list of guys who can just step on the court with just about anyone and crank out wins.  Somehow, Kemba Walker is one of them and is quietly wasting away in Charlotte.

 

Conclusion: if we can get Westbrook, Walker, James, and Harden on one team we would never lose. 

[Losthief]

We are talking players still in the league right? If not there is some others obv, but in the league:

 

I'd add Dirk. (not anymore cause he's old, but u did say wade so i think in league but not star level anymore counts?...but dirk did in the past for sure).

 

Pau Gasol did it with in the early/mids 00's, 03-04 thru 05-06 w/ mids 50s with James Posey/bonzi wells/shane battier as the 2nd best player.

 

Questions/notes on yours:

 

1. Who do you say Giannis had last season(s) to disqualify? Are we counting middleton that high? I mean i guess he does....he is like a 18-20 pt scorer with good D and ok rebounding...I get where your coming from.

 

I'd say last year 44-38 with jkidd still, carried them with middleton as the 2nd best to a winning team (playoff), and jkidd and middleton cancel each other out haha...but i get your side.

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2. Wade's 08-09 was harden-esque (https://www.basketba...s/MIA/2009.html)

that was some weak crap he dragged to the playoffs and a winning record. 2nd best scorer player (more than 42 games) mike beasly....the 2nd best player overall imo w/ 40 games was shawn marion at 12 pts per game....43-39 is pretty impressive. Also took one of his best seasons to hit 43 wins....so....shows how tough it is.

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But all that only serves to put harden's ability in perspective from the get go. Started hitting that mid 40s year 1 by himself, and only gone up w/ help (and 55 in 16 with Giannis type roster i.e. eric gorden as #2) sans that disaster year with dwight. Still .500 that year even.

 

Also crazy side note, yao ming was only off the roster for 1 year before we got harden....felt like a bigger gap.

 

I included those mid 40s wins w/ playoffs cause you included kemba so they match up, and harden's first year.

 

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4. For this discussion i agree westbrook is in.

 

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5. PG13 in indy no....pg13 if he never got injured probably, now....doesn't qualify cause russ...so no cause criteria but probably should be in the excluded due to circumstance list imho. This year pg is playing like a top 7 player easily.

 

 

p.s. really good question for a thought experiment

Edited by Losthief, 01 February 2019 - 09:18 PM.

[Rahat Huq]

Anthony Davis really needs to be underscored on that excluded list, and this is something I've been ranting about for a while now. For someone who's really done next to nothing in the league, he sure does get a lot of love compared to someone like a say...James Harden, who's floor has basically been 50 wins.

[thejohnnygold]

We are talking players still in the league right? If not there is some others obv, but in the league:

 

I'd add Dirk. (not anymore cause he's old, but u did say wade so i think in league but not star level anymore counts?...but dirk did in the past for sure).

 

Pau Gasol did it with in the early/mids 00's, 03-04 thru 05-06 w/ mids 50s with James Posey/bonzi wells/shane battier as the 2nd best player.

 

Questions/notes on yours:

 

1. Who do you say Giannis had last season(s) to disqualify? Are we counting middleton that high? I mean i guess he does....he is like a 18-20 pt scorer with good D and ok rebounding...I get where your coming from.

 

I'd say last year 44-38 with jkidd still, carried them with middleton as the 2nd best to a winning team (playoff), and jkidd and middleton cancel each other out haha...but i get your side.

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2. Wade's 08-09 was harden-esque (https://www.basketba...s/MIA/2009.html)

that was some weak crap he dragged to the playoffs and a winning record. 2nd best scorer player (more than 42 games) mike beasly....the 2nd best player overall imo w/ 40 games was shawn marion at 12 pts per game....43-39 is pretty impressive. Also took one of his best seasons to hit 43 wins....so....shows how tough it is.

----------------------------------

But all that only serves to put harden's ability in perspective from the get go. Started hitting that mid 40s year 1 by himself, and only gone up w/ help (and 55 in 16 with Giannis type roster i.e. eric gorden as #2) sans that disaster year with dwight. Still .500 that year even.

 

Also crazy side note, yao ming was only off the roster for 1 year before we got harden....felt like a bigger gap.

 

I included those mid 40s wins w/ playoffs cause you included kemba so they match up, and harden's first year.

 

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4. For this discussion i agree westbrook is in.

 

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5. PG13 in indy no....pg13 if he never got injured probably, now....doesn't qualify cause russ...so no cause criteria but probably should be in the excluded due to circumstance list imho. This year pg is playing like a top 7 player easily.

 

 

p.s. really good question for a thought experiment

 

Yeah, I should have been more clear--not that it matters.  We can include/exclude whoever and I think the point remains: James Harden is a beast (along with a few others).

 

Dirk absolutely makes the list if we are counting his entire career.  In my opinion, he holds the second most impressive individual playoff performance I've ever seen (yes, Hakeem is #1).

 

You are right about D-Wade...that team was pretty thin.  In my mind his best always came with either Shaq/LeBron by his side.

 

Regarding Giannis, yes, I am a huge Middleton believer.  I look at him the way most people look at Jimmy Butler.  He also had Bledsoe, Brogdon, and John Henson isn't chopped liver.

 

Regarding Gasol, I disagree a little.  Mike Miller was a nice player until his knees turned to stone.  I think we'd all kill to have a Posey/Battier wing duo right now.  Earl Watson was a fun player too.  There were definitely not any other "stud" players, but they had a really nice collection of role players there...I think we can give Pau credit though.  

 

 

Anthony Davis really needs to be underscored on that excluded list, and this is something I've been ranting about for a while now. For someone who's really done next to nothing in the league, he sure does get a lot of love compared to someone like a say...James Harden, who's floor has basically been 50 wins.

 

I know.  It's fascinating.  It begs the question: what is it that really generates wins?  Or perhaps it would be better to ask what makes teams lose?