Jump to content


Toggle shoutbox Shoutbox Open the Shoutbox in a popup

@  DenverRocket : (07 January 2016 - 09:33 PM) I did see the game. He didn't throw the ball, just feigned to do so - i think it was an understandable reaction and he was able to rein himself in just in time ;)
@  slick shoes : (07 January 2016 - 07:40 PM) DenverRocket, did you not see the game? I'm talking about his behavior while security was searching for the culprit.
@  DenverRocket : (07 January 2016 - 07:34 PM) I doubt he made a big issue about, just responded to a reporter/media question and ESPN gets a story. Come on, that knucklehead was totally out of order and deserves the ban - no big surprise that it happened in Utah either!
@  slick shoes : (07 January 2016 - 07:32 PM) They banned the fan for a year. It was really the "attempts" to throw the ball into the stands at him that irked me.
@  thenit : (07 January 2016 - 07:24 PM) Its the diva antics he has been displaying this past summer through now. His head is too big right now. I think they did the reight thing removing the fan and thats should be it
@  slick shoes : (07 January 2016 - 06:11 PM) Is it just me or is how upset Harden is over that laser pointer incident completely blowing it out of proportion.?
@  slick shoes : (06 January 2016 - 08:50 PM) I hope to see much more of Harrell tonight. Def not the starter but he added some fuel off the bench on Monday.
@  thenit : (05 January 2016 - 04:22 AM) thank god TJ is not playing in the 2nd half. Such a difference
@  thenit : (03 January 2016 - 06:57 AM) You cant rule out dmo yet. Still not recovered, he was out tonight due to sore back so the back is still an issue. TJ - I have seen enough 2 playoffs and 3 reg seasons
@  Johnny Rocket : (03 January 2016 - 04:01 AM) It turns out that in the big DMO vs. T Jones debate, there was only one right answer: neither.
@  thenit : (03 January 2016 - 03:29 AM) So once again TJones can't defend a good PF, minus 35 after 3 Qs, and Harden not much better with -31. Two of the worst defenders I've seen in a long time ATM
@  Johnny Rocket : (03 January 2016 - 02:10 AM) Maybe we should trade for Kevin Martin as defensive stopper off the bench (snark alert)
@  thenit : (01 January 2016 - 07:23 AM) He has played several games 20 plus minutes, so at this point only getting 6 doesn't make sense
@  Cooper : (01 January 2016 - 05:34 AM) Maybe he isn't in game shape yet, otherwise just doesn't make sense
@  thenit : (01 January 2016 - 02:33 AM) How about not playing Tjones who can't defend. -24 in 14 minutes. Can't understand why motie doesn't get more PT
@  thejohnnygold : (29 December 2015 - 08:46 PM) Don't forget that -40 of those came in 2 of the first 3 games when Dwight didn't play. That skews the relation a wee bit.
@  majik19 : (28 December 2015 - 07:49 PM) Also from Marc Stein's Twitter (and makes you rethink Capela's development so far...): How key is Dwight Howard to Houston's success? Entering Christmas, Rockets were +36 this season with Dwight on floor ... and -80 without him
@  majik19 : (28 December 2015 - 07:47 PM) From Marc Stein's Twitter: James Harden attempted 10 or more 3s in each of his first eight games this season. Since then? 10+ in just three of Houston's last 23 games
@  Mario Peña : (26 December 2015 - 08:44 PM) Tonight is a big test for Harden and company. Amid holiday distractions and on the second night of a back to back can this team bring maximum effort and not play down to the opponent?
@  majik19 : (24 December 2015 - 11:13 PM) In case you didn't see this, today is the anniversary of 13 in 34...

Photo

Where do the Houston Rockets go from here?


20 replies to this topic

#1 Red94

Red94

    Senior Member

  • Administrators
  • 1,452 posts

    Posted 03 January 2016 - 09:42 PM

    New post: Where do the Houston Rockets go from here?
    By: Rahat Huq

    Who would have ever dreamed that on January 3, 2016, the Rockets of Houston would sit at 16-19?  Had you told me, I'd have assumed that it could only be that James Harden had gone down.  Even an injury to Dwight Howard couldn't have sunk this roster this fast.  But here they are, in 2016, clinging to the 8th seed, sandwiched in the standings between Utah and Portland, two franchises in flux, with no aspirations above rebuilding their programs. Golden State and San Antonio both, sit predictably at the head of the class, in the air Houston had assumed they'd occupy.  The Thunder and Clippers both are peaking, each having turned it on of late, sort of.  And Memphis is in 6th, not too surprisingly, its time having clearly passed, but still grinding away at .500.  Dallas, somehow, with that roster, cobbled together in the 11th hour, is at 19-15, proof and testament to the importance of coaching in the NBA game.  The dregs are the dregs, but those teams weren't meant to be good anyway, and are looking ahead to June.

     

    While the early returns from the Capela-Howard pairing looked promising, in the midst of a four game skid, with the soft part of the schedule in the rearview mirror, we're probably at the point now where you can safely conclude the team won't take off.  At best, they'll probably limp into the postseason as a lower seed, hoping to click in time to pull off an upset.  Right now, they're a laughingstock, an embarrassment, and by far, the most disappointing team in the league.

     

    What is there to do?  I wrote two weeks ago that trading Harden would be foolish and I maintain that stance.  It was also around that time that the news about Ty Lawson first broke.  But since coming back from his suspension, the point guard has looked like his former self, making things happen off the bench, finally looking comfortable with the ball. Dwight and Capela have been themselves, and Motiejunas will take even more time to round into form, sitting out Saturday's match with soreness in his back.  Brewer has been terrible.  Terrence Jones was a -36 and -24 against the Spurs and Warriors, respectively.  He's as good as gone, I think.

     

    If you "blow it up", what does that even mean?  I guess getting the best deals you can for Jones, Brewer, Lawson, Howard, and possibly Ariza and Beverley.  I'm not sure it serves any purpose to deal Motiejunas or Capela, given their ages.  But what could you even get?  Outside of Markieff Morris, I don't see there even being a market for Jones/Brewer.  Despite his resurgence, who would want Lawson or give you back anything of any value?  The Rockets were the only team that didn't have a point guard.  You could possibly get a future first, I think, from a contender needing wing depth, for Ariza.  You definitely won't be getting back any building blocks.

     

    And then there's Howard.  What's even the market there?  Noah and/or Gibson?  Maybe Whiteside?  There could be a market, yes, but it's debatable as to the upside.  There is the thinking, though, that if he's leaving anyway this summer, you might as well get what you can right now.  I personally am not convinced, despite the national narrative, that Dwight is in a rush to leave, and I'm not in a hurry to see the big man go.

     

    The best option might be to just stay the course.  You make a few small moves--swap out Jones and Brewer for Morris and McDaniels--and see what happens.  You probably sneak into the playoffs as a lower seed.  If you can avoid the Warriors and Spurs, no one would really be surprised if this team pulled off a first round upset.

     

    Look, I know.  It's probably even more angering to read this line of reasoning.  For this team, it was Finals or bust.  But Morey won't manage based off emotion.  What purpose does it serve to "blow it up"?  There's no avenue to plan for the long term and you won't get back better alternatives for the present either.

     

    The one thing I might do, if you can hire the man you want to coach this team, is to hire him now instead of waiting for the summer.  This season is lost.  But if you can bring in your guy, you can at least get a head start in using the second half to implement the principles the new man wants.  Otherwise, those late winter-early spring games become a waste of everyone's time.

     

    I know the popular reaction right now is to gut this team, but where does that get you?


    • 0

    #2 Mario Peña

    Mario Peña

      Officer

    • Moderators
    • 2,332 posts
    • LocationHouston, TX

    Posted 04 January 2016 - 01:14 AM

    I agree. The front office needs to stay the course.

    I'm starting to think this whole season is a casualty of James Harden's maturation. Next off season he should be getting a dose of reality between an early postseason exit, less non basketball stuff and the Team USA experience at the Olympics. Hopefully he realizes how he failed as a leader this season. I hope this season is his last lesson in becoming a winner.

    During the game that Alexander sat with the commentators I did not get a very good feeling about the owners state of mind. Morey looked horrible when he fired Mchale and James doesn't look like he has bought in one bit this year. I used to think the synergy between the front office, the coaching staff and Harden was top tier last year but that's out the window this year.

    I still can't believe the a Rockets fell so far this year. I did not believe James would regress but I guess Adiddas paid him a lot more money than anyone else had ever paid him.
    • 0
    I can't stand the Warriors!

    #3 Jatman20

    Jatman20

      Junior Member

    • Members
    • PipPipPip
    • 251 posts

      Posted 04 January 2016 - 03:11 AM

      Last year going into the playoffs I saw the Warriors slightly more advanced to the Rockets because I feel the NBA is turning even more towards a 3 & D league. I mentioned last season how the Warriors sported 3 guys (Klay 44%/ Curry 44%, Barnes 40.5%) shooting over 40% from 3point-land during the regular season; while the Rockets had guys (Harden 37%, Jet 39%) close to shooting 40% from 3.

      Upon closer look it's easy to see how the Warriors are crushing teams this year. From 3 (2015/16) Klay 43%, Curry 44%, D Green 41%, Iggy 40%, Barnes 39%, Barbosa 40%....I will even throw in Rush 44% and Ian Clark 49%. A team put together based on analytics......Curry or Klay drive off Iso or set plays with spot up three point shooters ready to pop it!! No doubt these guys know their roles and worked on their threes this off-season. Rockets from 3 (2015/16): Harden 35%, Lawson 31%, Brewer 28%, Ariza 33%, Bev 40%, TJ 38%, Jet 38%, D-Mo 41%, Thornton 37%. Harden off of iso or sets needs the three point shooters. Last year was pure grit and determination.....I doubt that gets duplicated with the same cast.

      Last year during the playoffs some outfit (I believe ESPN) came up with the stats that Curry was shooting 64% from the left corner 3. If LeBron made 98% (I believe they used 98% or 96%) of his dunks; while Curry made 64% of his 3's.....Curry would get to 100 points before LeBron in the same amount of attempts. That's analytics in perspective. The Rockets are not made thru analytics as Charles Barkley has stated in the past. If they were......Harden would have many 3 & D guys around him and Ariza. Do the Rockets stay the course and let D12 and TJ walk this summer; while retaining D-Mo? Do like Orlando and get something for D12? Or do nothing and let him walk.....like the Lakers did? I guess the reward would be D12's salary coming off the books next season.....and Lawson's as well. So we hit free agency this summer. Just don't lie to us (Houston Rockets) and tell us you are in, "win-now-mode". Piss on our heads and tell us it's rain. Doing nothing thru Jan 15th and thru the trading deadline in Feb is the equivalent. Then It looks like McHale was just the scapegoat.

      I asked for Aminu in the off season as a 3 & D guy (currently shooting 36% from 3 & 11pts/game).........Some FA's in coming summer: Augustine 39% from 3, Gary Neal 43% from 3, Ryan Anderson 38% from 3, Teletovic 42% from 3. I know working under the salary cap is a puzzle. It's hard to get guys who can do both (3 & D); but Anderson, Neal, Teletovic compliment Harden and Ariza better than the group we have now. Whiteside is what we wanted D12 to be; a guy who doesn't ask for the ball & who blocks and alters shots everywhere. Whiteside probably has better moves and shot selections near the rim than D12.....at a younger age and less cost. We should go after him in the offseason.

      Edited by Jatman20, 04 January 2016 - 03:21 AM.

      • 1

      #4 Johnny Rocket

      Johnny Rocket

        Junior Member

      • Members
      • PipPipPip
      • 220 posts

        Posted 04 January 2016 - 03:00 PM

        If Philadelphia offered you Hardin for Okafor, its 2016 unprotected pick, and the Lakers pick (protected 1-3 this year, unprotected next), would you take it?  I might at this point.


        • 0

        #5 thejohnnygold

        thejohnnygold

          Veteran

        • Moderators
        • 4,252 posts
        • LocationAustin, TX

        Posted 04 January 2016 - 04:05 PM

        If Philadelphia offered you Hardin for Okafor, its 2016 unprotected pick, and the Lakers pick (protected 1-3 this year, unprotected next), would you take it?  I might at this point.

         

        At this point....I would.  A legit shot at Ben Simmons plus another lotto pick this year or next?  Okafor is better than I thought he would be.

         

        That trade could net you 3 players with a legit shot at being stars in this league.  For that reason, I don't think Philly would make that trade.  They have a chance to snag Ben Simmons, whatever they get for the Laker's pick, plus they can move Nerlens Noel/Okafor for another piece.


        • 0

        #6 Jatman20

        Jatman20

          Junior Member

        • Members
        • PipPipPip
        • 251 posts

          Posted 04 January 2016 - 07:39 PM

          Let's start a list of closers in the league (NBA today): 1) D-Wade (knees are shot), 2) Melo (Often injured), 3) Kobe (Is retiring....should have retired years ago), 4) LeBron, 5) K Irvng, 6) Curry??, 7) Nowitzki ?? (PnR defense suspect; but can end a game or two still), 8)Lilliard,
          9) Parker/Duncan/Ginobli (contemplating retirement every year), 10) LaMarcus Aldridge, 11) Durant, 12) Westbrook, 13) Paul George....14) Harden

          *Too young and haven't shown the consistency yet: Cousins, Wall, D-Rose (taken a step backwards), A Davis, DeRozan, who else??? Kemba Walker? I'm sure I'm leaving someone off the list.

          Coffee is for closers, and there are not many proven closers in the NBA. This is why I would try to keep Harden.....despite his short-comings. Harden needs to be surrounded by defensive players. I like defensive teams chances of beating the Warriors, over offensive teams chances. If you can't out shoot the Warriors in a 3 point shooting contest.....then you are just taking a knife to a gun fight. Teams that can keep the Warriors to about 90 points or less stand a better chance. Problem is defensive players tend to lack offensive skills. See Grizzlies team.

          Joining the discussion on Okafor......I'm not sold on players posting up now-a-days. I saw Olajuwon in an interview stating as much. Defenses are faster, longer, smarter, rotate much better than years past. Don't get me wrong, a post up game is a good look to keep another team honest. I just don't think it can be your main staple or diet on offense. Guys like Okafor and Julius Randle better learn from Marc Gasol and master the ten foot jump shot. Another point I would like to make is that these draft picks tend to take about 3 years to develop. Parsons was just on the cusp when he left for greener pastures /or more money. Terrence Jones is at that crossroads now.....D-Mo??? We (organizations) invest time and money and then they leave for big markets and shoe deals. I personally would keep the proven player (Harden) as my core center-piece. Since I feel D12 is leaving this summer; I would try my best to get that Whiteside/ Justice Winslow deal done. Whiteside is perfect next to Harden.....center who doesn't pout if he doesn't get the ball.....runs hard to give you rim runs.......blocks everything (4 blocks per game average.....D12 never averaged that).......better range on jump shots.......doesn't mind PnR plays. D12 hates setting screens and PnR. Dwight rotates better on defense and shoots better from the FT line. Whiteside can improve on defensive rotations in time.

          Edited by Jatman20, 04 January 2016 - 07:45 PM.

          • 0

          #7 Jatman20

          Jatman20

            Junior Member

          • Members
          • PipPipPip
          • 251 posts

            Posted 04 January 2016 - 08:03 PM

            I'm against the iso vs set play stats in crunch time......not every team has a good closer. Teams that run iso in the clutch with say Oladipo or Jeremy Lin, skew the stats negatively. How successful are the top 15 closers of the game in crunch time? Closers don't want the extra defender near (to double).....and in D12's case......they would rather foul D12 as a screener then allow the play to continue.
            • 0

            #8 Mario Peña

            Mario Peña

              Officer

            • Moderators
            • 2,332 posts
            • LocationHouston, TX

            Posted 04 January 2016 - 08:23 PM

            Yeah, I'm not sure about all the trade Harden talk.

            Just because a guy regresses or has a year of distractions doesn't mean you ship him out in my opinion. Dream had years where he had questionable priorities and there are countless others and every star player has his own journey.

            If next season after the Olympics James continues to fail as a leader on the Rockets then that's a different story.
            • 0
            I can't stand the Warriors!

            #9 majik19

            majik19

              Junior Member

            • Members
            • PipPipPip
            • 342 posts

              Posted 04 January 2016 - 09:09 PM

              On another note, wanted to point out that Pelton and Ford from ESPN ranked their top 10 sophomores by future potential, and Clint Capela ranked top 5 for both writers. 

               

              Pelton ranked Capela #2 (behind Wiggins), while Ford ranked him #5 (behind Wiggins, Parker, LaVine, and Exum).

               

              Here's what they had to say on Capela:

              Pelton: Capela ended up going 25th to the Houston Rockets, but after a year spent mostly in the D-League, he was a contributor off the bench in the playoffs and has carried that over so far this season. As I noted a few weeks ago, his per-minute averages put him in elite company among 21-year-old big men. I'm not sure how much Capela can improve but, like Andre Drummond, his defensive instincts catch up to his athleticism.

               

              Ford: It's pretty hard to argue with Capela at No. 2 based on his production this season. He has the second-highest PER of any of the top sophomores.

              He's in my top five, but I think several prospects, once they get healthy, will ultimately prove to be more valuable than Capela.  

              I have Capela at No. 5. He's an interesting case study in not putting too much value on one pre-draft performance. Capela came into the Nike Hoop Summit ranked No. 11 on our Big Board. He struggled in the practices and the game in front of a gaggle of scouts and GMs. By draft night, he had slid to No. 27 on my board, which is based on what I'm hearing from people in the NBA.

               

              Yet another late draft pick nailed by Morey... 


              • 0

              #10 Under estimated champion

              Under estimated champion

                Newbie

              • Members
              • Pip
              • 24 posts

                Posted 04 January 2016 - 11:02 PM

                T jones and Corey Brewer for josh smith and lance Stephenson? Any takers
                • 0

                #11 thejohnnygold

                thejohnnygold

                  Veteran

                • Moderators
                • 4,252 posts
                • LocationAustin, TX

                Posted 05 January 2016 - 12:16 AM

                Yeah, I'm not sure about all the trade Harden talk.

                Just because a guy regresses or has a year of distractions doesn't mean you ship him out in my opinion. Dream had years where he had questionable priorities and there are countless others and every star player has his own journey.

                If next season after the Olympics James continues to fail as a leader on the Rockets then that's a different story.

                 

                Fair enough.  I am probably being a bit rash.  I also am open to discussing the idea freely.  It beats wondering why our team is 16-19.

                 

                Regarding his regression....if it were just a case of his shooting touch disappearing I could live with it.  In my opinion, we are looking at something deeper inside him.  Maybe things will click and he will become the leader this team needs.  Maybe he will commit to defense.  Maybe....Maybe not.

                 

                Maybe James isn't the problem at all.  The power forward problem is real.  The "read and react" offense either doesn't work with this personnel, or it is easily thwarted by disciplined defensive teams and needs to be revamped or replaced.

                 

                Defensively...I don't even know what to think.

                 

                I think that Harden might be over-valued due to his offensive gifts.  When factoring in other things like defense and leadership I think he slips quite a bit in relation to other "alpha" players around the league.  Thus, when I ponder trading him it is not a consideration of trading the MVP runner-up.

                 

                At this point, I think there is the top tier of Curry, LeBron, Westbrook, and Durant.  Those guys are followed closely by a fairly large group of players that are topped by the likes of Harden, Kawhi, Paul George, Anthony Davis, Chris Paul, Melo, Cousins, and Lillard.  After that, you get into the Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, Chris Bosh, Kyle Lowry, Irving, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler and so on tier (this one has lots of people in it).  There is not a huge difference between tier 2 and 3 except that tier two guys could all find their way into tier one someday (yes, even Melo).  I don't think tier 3 guys will ever make it to tier 1.

                 

                What do we see when we look at groupings like that?  We see that to truly sniff titles you need one of those top guys.  Kawhi is in tier 2 right now because he has tons of help.  We'll see how he fares once there is no more Duncan & Co.

                 

                In tier 2 you have elite "stars" who are "untradeable" and only 3 of them have winning records right now (Kawhi, George, and Paul).  Kawhi and Paul have other studs on their teams.  Paul George is making a push to move into the top tier.  Anthony Davis will likely wind up there as well.

                 

                Harden has Howard, a high end 3 & D guy (Ariza), and good depth all around (except at PF...how is this still a problem!?!?!?).  Anthony Davis has a solid team around him...at least on paper.  Cousins does too.  What does that get him?  13 wins and 20 losses.

                 

                It begs the question of how much are these players really worth?  I know--more blasphemy from me.  Sure, for the most part you will rack up some regular season wins, but are they as irreplaceable as people think?  Are they moving towards tier 1 or tier 3?  I would argue that Melo, Cousins, and Harden are all trending down, not up.  I give Chris Paul an even score (neither up nor down); although, his shooting percentages have dipped a bit this year.

                 

                I am starting to believe that Harden is more Pippen than Jordan (meaning Robin, not Batman).  The problem is that he is too good to bring in a player that he would have to respect and defer to.  (Unless, as many hope, Durant is coming to town next year)  I think he would probably defer to Chris Paul as he was a mentor to Harden entering the league.  Other than that, who from Harden's tier or a tier below could come in and hold him accountable?  Howard certainly hasn't been able to despite talking about accountability more than once.

                 

                I'm fine with keeping Harden as long as we can bring in someone who will bring out the best in him.  If we can't do that then I am deeply concerned about the next 10 years with Harden as the leader of this team.  As I keep saying--I want to be wrong.  I'd love for everyone here to be able to say, "I told you so".  It's just not what I see right now.

                 

                I am aware that a coaching change may be the answer and many would like Thibs to come in and be the guy to hold him accountable.  Maybe he can.  I don't know.  It's weird to me.  I can't comprehend not having the requisite pride in oneself to want to do and be the best you can be for yourself and your team.  I never needed someone to remind me to care, or try, or make an effort when it comes to sports.  Why on Earth do we need to do this for Harden?  That question is why I am concerned about our future with him and so openly consider trading him.

                 

                9e14be6d-the-ultimate-bitch-please-look-


                • 1

                #12 thejohnnygold

                thejohnnygold

                  Veteran

                • Moderators
                • 4,252 posts
                • LocationAustin, TX

                Posted 05 January 2016 - 12:18 AM

                T jones and Corey Brewer for josh smith and lance Stephenson? Any takers

                 

                I would  :D


                • 0

                #13 Jatman20

                Jatman20

                  Junior Member

                • Members
                • PipPipPip
                • 251 posts

                  Posted 05 January 2016 - 01:42 AM

                  The NBA is tricky. Estimated payrolls for 2015-16: 1seed) Cavs $111 2 seed) Bulls $89 1seed) Warriors $93 2 seed) Spurs $87-$88 mil.
                  8) Rockets $88. The Rockets, much like the Nets of recent past, are not getting much bang for their buck!!

                  I would listen to Wiggins (I value athletic wings more than bigs right now) and draft picks for Harden.

                  I would have gone after Aminu this past summer and drafted Grant out of Norte Dame........bring in Teletovic as a rental. Teletovic is currently 2nd in NBA in spot up shooting and Aminu is 3rd.

                  Mavs $73 million with much of their payroll coming off the books this summer. Mavs hater here.......I admit t!!
                  • 0

                  #14 majik19

                  majik19

                    Junior Member

                  • Members
                  • PipPipPip
                  • 342 posts

                    Posted 05 January 2016 - 07:01 PM

                    T jones and Corey Brewer for josh smith and lance Stephenson? Any takers

                     

                    We might just have the worst locker room in the history of the NBA if we did that!

                     

                    But I'm willing to trade Jones and Brewer for a bag of chips at this point. 


                    • 0

                    #15 Sir Thursday

                    Sir Thursday

                      Senior Member

                    • Members
                    • PipPipPipPipPip
                    • 1,228 posts
                    • LocationUnited Kingdom

                    Posted 05 January 2016 - 07:04 PM

                    We might just have the worst locker room in the history of the NBA if we did that!

                     

                    But I'm willing to trade Jones and Brewer for a bag of chips at this point. 

                     

                    Surely a half a year of Josh Smith here in Houston should have been enough to convince you that he's not a 'problem player'? I don't remember any instances of him being considered a locker-room problem while he was here - on the contrary my memories of him are of a model professional. He seems to have been unfairly tarnished with a bad reputation, IMO.

                     

                    (But Stephenson, yeah that may not work out so well...)

                     

                    ST


                    • 0

                    #16 majik19

                    majik19

                      Junior Member

                    • Members
                    • PipPipPip
                    • 342 posts

                      Posted 05 January 2016 - 07:05 PM

                       I don't know.  It's weird to me.  I can't comprehend not having the requisite pride in oneself to want to do and be the best you can be for yourself and your team.  I never needed someone to remind me to care, or try, or make an effort when it comes to sports.  Why on Earth do we need to do this for Harden?  That question is why I am concerned about our future with him and so openly consider trading him.

                       

                      Maybe we've been spoiled in Houston. We've had great stars who really had the drive to win a championship. Not only in basketball (Rudy T and Hakeem come to mind), but the Astros had Craig Biggio and Jeff Bagwell, who did everything the right way (and later on Lance Berkman and Roy Oswalt). They are all anti-Hardens... we don't know how to respond to a guy like this. 


                      • 0

                      #17 majik19

                      majik19

                        Junior Member

                      • Members
                      • PipPipPip
                      • 342 posts

                        Posted 05 January 2016 - 07:07 PM

                        Surely a half a year of Josh Smith here in Houston should have been enough to convince you that he's not a 'problem player'? I don't remember any instances of him being considered a locker-room problem while he was here - on the contrary my memories of him are of a model professional. He seems to have been unfairly tarnished with a bad reputation, IMO.

                         

                        Yeah, I agree with this - I do think it was overblown by the media. But usually where there's smoke... We were also playing really well with Smith here. If we continued to struggle, would he go back to "jackin up 3s Josh?" Would he care enough to push the other guys to be better? 


                        • 0

                        #18 thejohnnygold

                        thejohnnygold

                          Veteran

                        • Moderators
                        • 4,252 posts
                        • LocationAustin, TX

                        Posted 05 January 2016 - 09:35 PM

                        Maybe we've been spoiled in Houston. We've had great stars who really had the drive to win a championship. Not only in basketball (Rudy T and Hakeem come to mind), but the Astros had Craig Biggio and Jeff Bagwell, who did everything the right way (and later on Lance Berkman and Roy Oswalt). They are all anti-Hardens... we don't know how to respond to a guy like this. 

                         

                        You may be right.  It was funny...last night watching the Utah game I found myself thinking, "Maybe I was wrong about Harden.  He's clearly hustling on defense.  It looks like he gets it.  Then, with about 5 minutes left I was reminded of exactly why I feel the way I do.  It was detailed in the recap, but I was so relieved when Terry took over for him.  As far as I'm concerned, Terry gets the game ball last night not only for carrying us to the finish line on offense, but for out-hustling 3 Utah players to get that decisive defensive rebound.

                         

                        Like it or not, James nearly cost us that game.  Not with his talent, but with his decision making.

                         

                        Harden got his.  30 points, 5 boards, and 7 assists, 4 three-pointers, 8-9 three pointers.  Good stuff.  Yet, there are two other numbers that tell more of the story: 8 turnovers and an unimpressive +2 on the +/-.  Given that he played 42 minutes and we won by 2 points that +/- isn't surprising.  The point is clear.  Harden takes a lot of his contributions off the board and it must be noted when considering his overall value.

                         

                        There was a moment late in the game where a Rocket turnover (can't remember if it was Harden's...probably was) led to a fast break.  Harden ran back and could have fouled Hayward, but instead chose to do his matador routine and let him finish the easy lay-up.  The camera pans to Bickerstaff and you can clearly read his lips.  "Foul!  Foul!"  A look of disgust and despair on his face.

                         

                        When you play for the team you commit that foul (to Harden's credit he did foul on a similar play moments later) and don't worry about yourself.  You believe in your teammates.  If you foul out then Terry, Dwight, Thornton...somebody will make a play.  When James places himself above the team it sends a message.

                         

                        More fair play...Terry's late game pick n rolls would not have been as successful if it weren't for the defenders leaning towards stopping Harden which opened up those lanes for him.  I think we should, and will, see more of that.

                         

                        I'm sure most people remember Carlos Lee from a few years back on the Astros.  Big time slugger who couldn't play defense.  He should have been a DH, but the Astros stuck him in left field and just about every game you could watch the opposing team scoring runs on balls that just about any other outfielder would have caught.  Basically, Lee had to bat in at least one run per game to account for the run he was inevitably going to give up.  Thus, his hitting numbers were essentially negated.  Harden is giving us a similar scenario all too often.

                         

                        As for Josh Smith, I also agree that he was a solid player for us both on the court and off.  Yes, his game has flaws, but I generally felt like he helped far more than he ever hurt us and he always hustled.  I don't care much for Stephenson, but if we could get him back to doing what he did in Indy playing alongside Paul George--even just for 12-15 mpg--then that would be a win.  Meanwhile, we definitely upgrade the PF spot (what we really need) and KJ/Thornton/Stephenson can't possibly be worse than Brewer.

                         

                        According to NBA.com, Josh Smith had the best +/- of any Rocket forward last year at +3.8.  Ariza was 2nd at 2.9.  T-Jones was the next actual PF at +2.4.  D-Mo was +1.4.  Like I said, for all his warts Smith affected the game positively for us.


                        • 0

                        #19 clydesmoustache

                        clydesmoustache

                          Junior Member

                        • Members
                        • PipPipPip
                        • 154 posts

                          Posted 06 January 2016 - 03:45 AM

                          There was a moment late in the game where a Rocket turnover (can't remember if it was Harden's...probably was) led to a fast break. Harden ran back and could have fouled Hayward, but instead chose to do his matador routine and let him finish the easy lay-up. The camera pans to Bickerstaff and you can clearly read his lips. "Foul! Foul!" A look of disgust and despair on his face.

                          When you play for the team you commit that foul (to Harden's credit he did foul on a similar play moments later) and don't worry about yourself. You believe in your teammates. If you foul out then Terry, Dwight, Thornton...somebody will make a play. When James places himself above the team it sends a message.


                          I have not watched the Utah game yet but how long was left in the game? All these stars have massive egos. I would not be surprised if Harden feels that if he is on the bench due to foul trouble he has let his team down. Then coach tells him to foul and he does it next time. That sounds like message received to me. I hear you with the effort but I am not sold on this example. Though after watching the game might change my thinking.

                          It does show how times have changed JG. It wasn't that long ago when you felt that Morey was in Hardens ear about going easy on D to stay in the game.

                          I personally don't get this team. Previous years teams were terrible at D and we at least were able to get a few blowout wins. The few wins we have had often are tough or seem completely undeserved. I used to feel like if we hit 10 threes in any game we are in with a chance. These days we are shooting the lights out and still getting bounced easily. No lead is safe.
                          • 0

                          #20 thejohnnygold

                          thejohnnygold

                            Veteran

                          • Moderators
                          • 4,252 posts
                          • LocationAustin, TX

                          Posted 06 January 2016 - 04:57 PM

                          I have not watched the Utah game yet but how long was left in the game? All these stars have massive egos. I would not be surprised if Harden feels that if he is on the bench due to foul trouble he has let his team down. Then coach tells him to foul and he does it next time. That sounds like message received to me. I hear you with the effort but I am not sold on this example. Though after watching the game might change my thinking.

                          It does show how times have changed JG. It wasn't that long ago when you felt that Morey was in Hardens ear about going easy on D to stay in the game.

                          I personally don't get this team. Previous years teams were terrible at D and we at least were able to get a few blowout wins. The few wins we have had often are tough or seem completely undeserved. I used to feel like if we hit 10 threes in any game we are in with a chance. These days we are shooting the lights out and still getting bounced easily. No lead is safe.

                           

                          Yeah, that was back when Harden and Lin first arrived and I couldn't fathom any other possibility.  I had never seen somebody play that way on defense.  I was convinced it must be a strategic thing.  I was wrong.

                           

                          The Utah game example was late in the 4th with the game on the line.  I should have been specific on that.  I agree--first/second quarter is a different thing.  Late game, close score, fouls to give....not so much.  I gave Harden credit for "message received", but then again, we are in game 36 of his 7th season (4th in Houston)....why does he need to be told to foul there?

                           

                          Harden isn't the only problem.  It's systematic.  Despite Richard Li's proclamation that the system isn't broken because there isn't one, we do have some issues that fall under that umbrella.

                           

                          Last night I was talking to a buddy and diagramming on paper how the Rocket's defensive scheme allows teams to easily break down our defense and the only thing which prevents the opposing team from scoring is themselves (i.e making the good shot they have created versus missing it).  For years, we have over-played off the weak side.  Watch how far out of position we are, the subsequent scramble to get back into position, and the ensuing chaos.  

                           

                          We invite teams to chuck threes and drive to the rim against us.  Over the last 3+ years I have fully expected this team to develop a defensive system that forces teams into as many long 2's as possible.  What else would you be scheming for if you believe efficiency comes from threes, paint, and fouls?  Yet, we seem to do the opposite.  It's maddening.

                           

                          I get that it is easier said than done, but I can't discern what advantage our defensive scheme provides.  It's almost as if we presume the other team is stupid and will just play into our hands rather than out scheme us.

                           

                          I don't think it's that complicated.  Modern offenses are geared to make the defense move first before attacking whatever weak spot opens up.  Stop moving so much.  We start out of position, over-react getting back, and it's all downhill from there.

                           

                          Just watch what other teams do to us.  They stay at home and trap on the ball handler when possible.  On the perimeter, they crowd the shooter and body up rather than defending with their hands.  I'd like to see Houston do more of this.

                           

                          Maybe I'm way off.  I don't presume to know more than NBA coaches.  Although, sometimes I wonder.... :unsure:


                          • 0




                          0 user(s) are reading this topic

                          0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users