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@  feelingsuper... : (17 January 2014 - 08:00 PM) Mike and Seth on 610AM just mentioned Justin Wehr's graph comparing Harden favorably to other greats.
@  Richards : (17 January 2014 - 02:38 PM) It seems some already threw white flags. Repeated losses don't rattle them anymore.
@  feelingsuper... : (17 January 2014 - 02:35 PM) I agree Drew. Years ago when I was more emotionally invested this loss would have devastated me. Really this is just part of them paying their dues, I agree with rocketrick in that it will strengthen them. The mention if Asik was not an excuse just a logical thing to mention considering how physical the second half was, Dwight was all alone down low.
@  Drew in Abilene : (17 January 2014 - 02:14 PM) Yes, Houston lost after leading by double digits, but this was against a very strong Thunder team on the second night of a back-to-back with key players injured. Still stinks to lose a winnable game, but I don't see cause for panic.
@  rocketrick : (17 January 2014 - 11:41 AM) This game will stiffen the Rockets backbone for future tussles headed our direction. But man, that was one ugly second half to have to witness in person!
@  Buckko : (17 January 2014 - 07:40 AM) Asik has been injured, and you can't use him as an excuse. We will get him back by the end of the month though.
@  miketheodio : (17 January 2014 - 06:41 AM) another blown double digit lead
@  feelingsuper... : (17 January 2014 - 05:23 AM) Perhaps Harden should have shot more to find his shot in the second half, to get it going. The Rockets sure could use a committed Asik, it's a shame what he did to this team.
@  feelingsuper... : (17 January 2014 - 05:20 AM) I agree, it's crazy. Seventy three in the first half and 19 in the second half.
@  thenit : (17 January 2014 - 05:15 AM) I know but scoring under 20 in second half is deflating
@  feelingsuper... : (17 January 2014 - 05:14 AM) Not entirely unexpected, this is a young team searching for an identity facing a team with a system in place. This won't happen next year.
@  thenit : (17 January 2014 - 05:00 AM) Deflating to watch
@  MrLobble : (17 January 2014 - 03:53 AM) DMOs trade value is flying like a penny stock!
@  thenit : (17 January 2014 - 03:50 AM) hopefully this will end our cold streak from 3s
@  thenit : (17 January 2014 - 03:50 AM) So happy for dmo
@  RocketMansin... : (17 January 2014 - 03:47 AM) Only fan from Altus Oklahoma but it feels good.. Hope the Rockets finish this game and get this one!
@  feelingsuper... : (17 January 2014 - 03:32 AM) Sure is good to see Harden being himself and making those good passes that are leading to good shots for his teammates.
@  Sir Thursday : (17 January 2014 - 02:56 AM) I don't think it's so much a bad vs. good thing. The way I see it, it's much easier to talk about change than it is to talk about something that stays the same. When the team is losing, people suggest improvements and changes to make the team better. But if a team is playing well there are no changes to suggest...
@  Buckko : (17 January 2014 - 01:59 AM) Honestly, its like that for everything, in general people are too busy focusing on the bad rather than to enjoy the good.
@  feelingsuper... : (16 January 2014 - 07:59 PM) I agree rocketrick, it always seems strange how quick many fans are to complain. I guess I have been watching to long to have much to complain about right now plus it's not my style. Each unto their own.

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James Harden compared to the best players in NBA history (it’s much closer than you think)


45 replies to this topic

#1 Red94

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    Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:45 PM

    New post: James Harden compared to the best players in NBA history (it’s much closer than you think)
    By: Justin Wehr

    Basketball is the only sport where you can pretty reliably predict which teams will be playing in the Finals just by looking at where the best few players are located. History has shown that unless a team has at least one of the all-time greats playing in his prime, they are extremely unlikely to win a championship or even make the Finals. (Evidence here if you need it.) The implications for the Rockets are clear: To be legitimate contenders, they need James Harden or Dwight Howard to play like not just an all-star, not just like a future hall of famer, but more like one of the three or four best players in the league and one of the twenty-five best players of the past half century.

    Dwight Howard hasn’t played close to that level since his back surgery 635 days ago (for evidence, see here, here, or here), so I would be willing to bet that the Rockets will never win a championship if Dwight Howard is their best player. (That’s not to say he won’t be extremely valuable and important to the cause, just that he probably won’t be the primary contributor to a Rockets’ championship.)

    James Harden is a different story. He’s clearly not top-3 level yet, but the data I looked at last week gave me optimism that he could get there before long, so this week I am taking it a step further and directly comparing Harden’s young career to the all-time greats.

    James Harden compared to the best players in NBA history


    The dashed gray line in the chart above represents the following players: LeBron James, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, Chris Paul, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Dwight Howard, Dwyane Wade, Magic Johnson, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, Charles Barkley, Manu Ginobili, Larry Bird, John Stockton, Hakeem Olajuwon, Karl Malone, Kevin Durant, and Tracy McGrady. According to the method I used, those are the players with the best statistical careers over the past 50 years. (My method in brief: I looked at how many standard deviations above average the players were for each year of their career based on RAPM, PER, and WS/48, where RAPM is given the most weight. Of all players who entered the league after 1963, the players listed above are the only ones who were more than 2 standard deviations above average over their whole career.)

    The Really Good News: The first four years of James Harden’s career were on par with the best players in NBA history. That’s a fact. Not some blogger’s opinion. People are severely underestimating James Harden. (That is some blogger’s opinion.)

    The Not-So-Good News: Harden’s numbers have fallen this year. Whereas the all-time greats were about 3 standard deviations above average at his age, Harden has “only” been about 1.5 standard deviations above average this year. Here are some possible reasons for the decline:

    • Harden has (or had) a nagging injury. (We know he did for at least the first part of the year.)
    • Harden has been overconfident with shot selection and/or playing too much heroball.
    • Opponents are learning how to guard Harden.
    • Harden has struggled to mesh with Howard.

    All of those reasons are pretty harmless from a long-term perspective. They are fixable. But here’s another potential reason for the decline, and unfortunately this might be the likeliest one:

    • Harden was playing above his head the past couple of seasons and has regressed to his normal level this season.

    Let’s hope for the sake of the Rockets’ future that Harden’s relatively poor performance this season is an aberration and that his spectacular performance the past couple of seasons is the norm, not the reverse.

    The bottom line is that Harden could very well become one of the all-time greats, thus making the Rockets a legitimate contender, but his relatively poor performance this season downgrades my optimism to the “cautious” variety at best.


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    #2 timetodienow1234567

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    Posted 15 January 2014 - 06:41 PM

    Dwight is better than Harden
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    Why so Serious? :D


    #3 thenit

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      Posted 15 January 2014 - 08:45 PM

      The title of this article should be the best offensive players. Because some of those players in the all time list are not great defenders and Harden isn't either. So there is no way I would ever put Harden in GOAT discussion or top 50 all time unless he improves his D.

       

      Offensively if he keeps this development he might become one of the best efficient scorer of all time.


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      #4 timetodienow1234567

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      Posted 15 January 2014 - 09:45 PM

      Who on that list aren't all time top 50 players? Maybe T Mac?
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      Why so Serious? :D


      #5 thenit

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        Posted 15 January 2014 - 10:11 PM

        T-Mac, Ginobli, KD,Dirk, Barkley just my opinion though. Same as that Harden shouldn't be mentioned with the likes of Jordan etc, because he is way too young, haven't won anything, plays a 1way game and many other things.

         

        All those players are exceptional scorers and all those statistics are on the offensive end. From that stand point he is one of the best scorers but not overall player, not by a mile


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        #6 Chichos

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          Posted 15 January 2014 - 10:39 PM

          So random thought.  What if you take guys 1-8 on all those championship teams and add up their standard deviations above average, weight them against minutes played, then average it out to create a team Standard deviation above average team for each champion in each season.  It would probably be easier to do that for more recent seasons.  But if it is true that you need one of the top 4 players in the league to win a championship then you would expect to see that player's team consistantly in the top three or four of that metric. 

           

          I think you would find team (defined as the 8 rotation players) standard deviation above average a better indicator of championships than having a top three player.  Having wasted everyone's time with that, Harden definitely needs to increase his level of play begining with his decision making. 


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          #7 timetodienow1234567

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          Posted 15 January 2014 - 11:19 PM

          Dirk Barkeley and Ginobili are top 50 players although Ginobili is close. KD isn't there yet but if he continues the way he has he will be there.
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          Why so Serious? :D


          #8 thenit

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            Posted 16 January 2014 - 12:02 AM

            All these list are subjective so I respect that. What I'm trying to say is that all those statistical top 50 are based on offensive stats. So my comment was that it shouldn't be "the best" list it should be the best offensive players. I just think Harden's lack of D is so bad that I can't put him up there unless we are just discussing offense. That's why I wouldn't rank him top 10 in the NBA today. I think he has the potential to get into the top 5 category. That's why I always liked Russ Westbrook more and that his value was proven last year when he went down, he plays both ways. Just as an example.

             

            If I have to pick a player for the next 5 years for my franchise, Harden would still be in my top 5 pick. So the future is bright in my eyes, but I think we tend to be dazzled by his effiency that we forget or dismiss his D to the point that he makes up for it through his O. But the problem is in the playoffs they can zoom in on him and he plays against better players while he still be pretty efficient, he also has to guard better players therefore his net rating might become negative. Last year we kept saying he was saving himself for the playoffs, but I couldn't see him doing more on the D end than during the regular season despite we putting him on Thabo (spot up shooter) and Ibaka (aka no post game). I just have high hopes that I want him to develop a sense of pride in shutting down his man, while killing them on O. He is still young, but I don't want it to end up being like Melo, Iverson T Mac, etc who were great scorers but never had that D intensity to lead their team. Even KD has upped his defence every year, and he is the same age as Harden. They both been on the losing side so you figure that if KD gets it, Harden should too.


            Edited by thenit, 16 January 2014 - 12:08 AM.

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            #9 timetodienow1234567

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            Posted 16 January 2014 - 12:59 AM

            Top players to pick from if building a team for the next 5 years+

            1) Lebron
            2) Davis
            3) KD
            4) George
            5) Harden

            If Westbrook and Rose weren't injured they would be ahead of Harden.
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            Why so Serious? :D


            #10 j_wehr

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              Posted 16 January 2014 - 03:58 AM

               


              Top players to pick from if building a team for the next 5 years+

              1) Lebron
              2) Davis
              3) KD
              4) George
              5) Harden

              If Westbrook and Rose weren't injured they would be ahead of Harden.

               

               

              That's a reasonable-looking list. I think Chris Paul and Kevin Love also need to be in consideration, and maybe Andre Drummond and Blake Griffin. I don't think Westbrook or Rose are at that level, even when perfectly healthy.

               

               

              What I'm trying to say is that all those statistical top 50 are based on offensive stats. So my comment was that it shouldn't be "the best" list it should be the best offensive players. I just think Harden's lack of D is so bad that I can't put him up there unless we are just discussing offense. That's why I wouldn't rank him top 10 in the NBA today. 

               

              Not true. RAPM, which is the measure I used most heavily in this analysis, includes a measure of defense. 


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              #11 SDrake

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                Posted 16 January 2014 - 05:08 AM

                It's still way to early in Harden's career to anoint him as an elite player.  Too many holes in his defense, inconsistent shooting percentage and the propensity for selfish play at the end of close games.

                 

                My question is how many other players have been on a "superstar track" after their first several seasons but never continuing to progress to elite status?  I expect that there are plenty.

                 

                Also, elite players often have an above-average supporting cast of teammates that compliment the elite player's abilities,  Jordan had Pippen, Rodman and others.  Kobe had Shaq.  LeBron became better with Bosh and Wade.  Magic had Kareem.  Larry Bird had a great supporting cast also.  My point is that unless Harden can learn to play together well with his teammates, his career could look more like Carmelo's...  A lot of stats without getting a championship.


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                #12 SDrake

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                  Posted 16 January 2014 - 05:09 AM

                  I counter myself...  Charles Barkley has no championships.


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                  #13 Buckko

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                    Posted 16 January 2014 - 05:47 AM

                    IMO Howard will carry us to a championship on his broad shoulders and from what I've seen so far from him, this is his team. Harden might be the scoring machine and closer but he is not the leader like Dwight.


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                    #14 RudyT1995

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                      Posted 16 January 2014 - 10:03 AM

                      I hate to say it, but that chart is meaningless.  The sample is biased.  You can't draw any useful conclusions from that.  


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                      #15 rocketrick

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                        Posted 16 January 2014 - 01:18 PM

                        Opinion from a known Harden "Disliker" (I refuse to use the word HATER)
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                        #16 timetodienow1234567

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                        Posted 16 January 2014 - 01:32 PM

                        Harden is a great player but he's not better than elite 2 way players like George Durant James Howard etc... He's young and will improve but not there yet.
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                        Why so Serious? :D


                        #17 j_wehr

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                          Posted 16 January 2014 - 02:57 PM

                          I hate to say it, but that chart is meaningless.  The sample is biased.  You can't draw any useful conclusions from that.  

                           

                          There's nothing I love more than when hours of work are declared biased/meaningless by someone who doesn't even have the civility to attempt to defend his statement.


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                          #18 j_wehr

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                            Posted 16 January 2014 - 02:59 PM

                            My question is how many other players have been on a "superstar track" after their first several seasons but never continuing to progress to elite status?  I expect that there are plenty.

                             

                            That's a good question, and I can answer a slightly different version of it: "Of all NBA players over the past 50 years, how many played as well or better than Harden at ages 22 and 23?" According to the method I used, the answer is 12. Here they are: LeBron James, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Durant, Tracy McGrady, Andrei Kirilenko, Chris Bosh, Kevin Love, and Bob McAdoo.
                             
                            I can also answer, "Of all NBA players over the past 50 years, how many played as well or better than Harden in their third and fourth season?" The answer is 17: LeBron James, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, Chris Paul, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Dwight Howard, Dwyane Wade, Dirk Nowitzki, Charles Barkley, Manu Ginobili, Larry Bird, Kevin Durant, Andrei Kirilenko, Kevin Love, and Bill Walton.
                             
                            So no, there are not plenty of players on the same track as Harden who did not end up continuing to elite status. in fact there are none.

                            Edited by j_wehr, 16 January 2014 - 03:00 PM.

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                            #19 Cooper

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                              Posted 16 January 2014 - 03:21 PM

                              Kirilenko as elite is a stretch.
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                              #20 j_wehr

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                                Posted 16 January 2014 - 03:33 PM

                                Here is Kirilenko's RAPM over his career:
                                 
                                4.2
                                4.4
                                8.1
                                8.9
                                8.8
                                4.7
                                5.2
                                4.2
                                3.3
                                2.7
                                2.5
                                 
                                Those are elite numbers.

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