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@  2016Champions : (23 July 2013 - 12:07 PM) "Overall, when a qualifying defender is within 5 feet of the basket, the NBA shoots 57.2% of its attempts close to the basket; however, when Dwight Howard was the interior defender this number dropped to 48.2%"

2010-11?
@  2016Champions : (23 July 2013 - 12:06 PM) Weird, I can see John Eby's daily on the front page but not in the forum. I was wondering which season the Kirksberry study was in reference to.
@  2016Champions : (22 July 2013 - 09:13 PM) I'm not sure, but I think this is Chandler Parsons blocking DeMarcus Cousins: https://vine.co/v/hKnZuWQ7qLK
@  Ostrow : (22 July 2013 - 08:22 PM) He was my first thought as well, but he was so good offensively.
@  CC. : (22 July 2013 - 08:05 PM) Well there's Kevin McHale haha. 6th man of the year twice, Of course he wasn't just strictly a defensive player, but he did star in six all defensive teams, which ain't too bad right
@  Ostrow : (22 July 2013 - 07:50 PM) I love me a Asik, he's just a weird type of player for a 6th made. I'm trying to think of great 6th men who came of the bench and basically were only defensive players.
@  CC. : (22 July 2013 - 07:48 PM) And yeah I don't see Asik as that 6th man Harden once was, but he still anchors that defense for 48 minutes, and for a team like the Rockets...they need it and that's fine for me as a '6th man'
@  CC. : (22 July 2013 - 07:45 PM) I honestly have kept OKC as the 1st, until now that I'm finding out Martin left haha. I'd go with the Spurs now
@  Ostrow : (22 July 2013 - 07:41 PM) Who sounds like your one seed out of curiosity? I mean our 6th man isn't great for that role. Obviously Asik is good, but not your stereotypical 6th man sparkplug scorer off the bench
@  CC. : (22 July 2013 - 07:18 PM) So that leaves OKC with Reggie as their 6th man? Hmm that doesn't sound like 1st seed to me
@  redfaithful : (21 July 2013 - 09:15 AM) 3 team deal with Bucks, OKC got rights to Szymon Szewczyk, drafted 2003...
@  Ostrow : (21 July 2013 - 07:25 AM) sign and trade. they didn't want to pay him
@  RollingWave : (21 July 2013 - 03:48 AM) they got Luk Ridinour for him I think
@  CC. : (21 July 2013 - 01:18 AM) Wait what happened to Kevin Martin? OKC got only a second round pick for him?
@  timetodienow... : (20 July 2013 - 02:55 AM) guy*
@  timetodienow... : (20 July 2013 - 02:54 AM) Yeah, I can see that. The dude is my favorite irrational confidence guys.
@  2016Champions : (20 July 2013 - 02:52 AM) I do see the reason for comparison though, both capable scorers and defensive liabilities.
@  2016Champions : (20 July 2013 - 02:51 AM) Nate wouldn't have accepted the flimsy contract we gave Brooks. Brooks is nothing more than an emergency 3rd string, where as Nate is looking for more than that.
@  timetodienow... : (20 July 2013 - 02:15 AM) What are you guys' thoughts about bringing in Nate Robinson? I wondered why the Rockets signed Brooks when Nate was still available.
@  timetodienow... : (20 July 2013 - 01:59 AM) Cousins isn't consistent enough for that. I ranked them on a post if you want to comment there.

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Where do Harden and Howard rank?


34 replies to this topic

#1 Rahat Huq

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    Posted 20 July 2013 - 06:20 PM

    I haven't written anything in two weeks as I've been studying for the bar exam and thus, I have all of these thoughts swirling around that are about to explode out of my head.  

     

    First, one thing that feels unreal to me is that Dwight Howard at this time last year was no worse than the 3rd best player in the entire league.  This is kind of hard to remember/believe considering how far he fell off last year in the public eye.  

     

    I have a few questions:

     

    1. what are the chances Howard regains that rank at 3?  (behind lebron and durant)

    2. where do you rank harden?

    3. where do howard/harden rank amongst duos?  



    #2 timetodienow1234567

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    Posted 20 July 2013 - 06:36 PM

    Top 10 players

    1) Lebron

    2) Durant

    3) Howard(healthy)

    4) Gasol

    5) Paul

    6) Parker

    7) Duncan

    8) Harden

    9) Melo

    10) Westbrook

     

    Duos

    1) Lebron/(random heat player, maybe Wade, maybe Bosh)

    2) Duncan/Parker

    3) Howard/Harden(based on potential, since we haven't seen them)

    4) Aldridge/Lillard

    5) Curry/Lee

    6) Lopez/Williams(really good towards the end of the year)


    Why so Serious? :D


    #3 Rahat Huq

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      Posted 20 July 2013 - 06:53 PM

      No Durant/Westbrook?



      #4 2016Champions

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      Posted 20 July 2013 - 07:05 PM

      1. what are the chances Howard regains that rank at 3?  (behind lebron and durant)

      2. where do you rank harden?

      3. where do howard/harden rank amongst duos?  

      1. High. Unlike Larry Bird and Tracy McGrady, Dwight didn't delay his surgery for an extended period of time. Also, Dr. Klapper explains some interesting info here--LINK. Basically, the method for lower back surgery has made significant advancements over the years, Dwight is a lucky guy and so are we.

      2. Harden ranks top 7. Now that he has an elite PnR partner I wouldn't be surprised if he cracks the consensus top 5. 

      3. I think they would be the most synergistic duo in the league--more than the sum of both parts. Anyone who has already read Carl Fudge's article would already know why I think this. 


      Edited by 2016Champions, 20 July 2013 - 07:07 PM.

      Debates are destructive as they present one-sided opinions and demolish reasoned arguments, whereas discussions are constructive and encourage the expression of opinion.

       

      Debate is the death of conversation.


      #5 thenit

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        Posted 20 July 2013 - 07:15 PM

        1. Lebron

        2. Durant

        3. Paul

        4. Parker

        5. Duncan

        6. Westbrook

        7. Melo

        8. Gasol

        9. Harden

        10. Curry

         

        Duos

         

        Top 5 would be

         

        1. LBJ/Wade ( due mostly to LBJ )

        2. Durant/Westbrook

        3. Duncan/Parker

        4. Howard/Harden

        5. Williams/Lopez



        #6 Steven

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          Posted 20 July 2013 - 07:31 PM

          Gasol sucks. He isn't anywhere near the top 10. He is the fourth best C in his own division, let alone the league.

          #7 Cooper

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            Posted 20 July 2013 - 08:08 PM

            I'd go with a top 10 like
            1. Lebron
            2. Durant
            3. Howard
            4. Westbrook
            5. Paul
            6. Parker
            7. Harden
            8.kobe
            9.wade
            10. Duncan

            Duos
            Lebron/wade
            Durant/Westbrook
            Howard/Harden
            Duncan/Parker
            Then a tie between melo/TC and Paul/griffen

            #8 CC.

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              Posted 21 July 2013 - 01:11 AM

              Mine's:

              1)LBJ

              2)Durant

              3)Paul

              4)Kobe

              5)Howard

              6)Rose -an MVP so he's ahead of Westbrook

              7)Westbrook

              8)Harden

              9)Parker-he'd be higher but his athleticism isn't up with Rose's/West's/ or Paul's

              10)Carmelo-Last season scoring leader

               

              I want to add Duncan but he's my 11)

               

              Duos----

              1)LBJ/Wade

              2)Durant/Westbrook

              3)Howard/Harden

              4)Duncan/Parker

              5) and 6) Gasol/Z-Bo or P.George/Hibbert

               

              Honorable mentions for top duos I feel would be near top 5

              Curry/Thompson-or-Iguodala-or-Lee

              Irving/Waiters

              Lillard/Aldridge

              Melo/TC

              DWill and Lopez? Maybe



              #9 Jeby

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                Posted 21 July 2013 - 03:44 AM

                I would say the top 4 are:
                1. LeBron
                2. Durant
                3a. Healthy Howard (back, shoulder)
                3b. Healthy Chris Paul (knee)

                Those are the only four guys that would guarantee you a playoff spot (at least in the East), even with a roster full of scrubs.

                The next ten or so players are kind of a wash. You have HOFers who aren't quite the same because of age (Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, Wade), one-way offensive maestros (Melo, Harden, Rose, Curry, Lillard, Irving), and a few guys who are all-around excellent but not-quite-transcendent for one reason or another (Westbrook, Griffin, Gasol, Parker, Aldridge, Healthy Love).

                I think it's a little handier to group players into tiers than to rank them numerically when assessing value, in part because the perception of guys in that second group fluctuates a lot depending on who their coach and teammates are, and how much they are winning.
                "Assets" -- Daryl Morey

                #10 timetodienow1234567

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                Posted 21 July 2013 - 04:23 AM

                Whoa. You really think that highly of Lillard? I wouldn't call him an offensive maestro. And I think that Westbrook is the closest to those 4. He probably  is about to become a superstar. And Rose does play defense.


                Why so Serious? :D


                #11 Steven

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                  Posted 21 July 2013 - 04:33 AM

                  1. Harden
                  2. Howard
                  3. LeBron
                  4. Durant

                  #12 rockets best fan

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                  Posted 21 July 2013 - 04:52 AM

                  1. LeBron James

                  2. Kevin Durrant

                  3. D-12

                  4. CP3

                  5. Derrick Rose

                  6. Kobe Bryant

                  7. James Harden

                  8. Tony Parker

                  9. Melo

                  10. Darren Williams

                   

                  Duo's

                  Harden / D-12

                  LeBron / Wade

                  Durrant / Westbrick

                  Parker / Duncan

                  Gasol / Z-Bo



                  #13 Losthief

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                    Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:18 AM

                    1, Lebron James

                    2. Kevin Durant

                    3. CP3 (w/ his new shooters he'll be up here again)

                    4. Wade (when healthy, aka before knee went out last year)

                    5. Dwight

                    6. Westbrook

                    7. Tony Parker (most effective 1 way player in nba today)

                    8. Harden (-def, ++offense)

                    9. Kobe Bryant (this has more to do with post game, and how defenses treat him rather than actual numbers at this point)

                    10. Melo (-def, -reb, ++offense)

                    (you could talk me into replacing 7-10 with derrick rose, marc gasol, deron williams sans ankles injuries, Duncan (per min ++) and few others, imho theres 3 tiers on this list, the LBJ tier (with durant there off not defensively), then theres your all around stars 2-6 on my list who can control the flow of the game on both sides of the ball consistently, then 7-15ish that force you to change how you play via one side of the ball).

                     

                    duo's

                    1. LBJ/Wade 

                    2. KD/Westbrook (better off than heat, -def versus heats duo)

                    2. TP/Duncan(Kwahi) (i cheat because of minutes, but those two are the center of the parker spurs pick based offense other than parker)

                    3. Conley/Gasol (this has to do with defense more than offense)

                    4. Harden/D12 (with potential to move up, though I think D12 will help lin even more than harden, like TC did with lin)

                    5. Rose/Noah (the just need more shooters than they got with those passing skills between them)



                    #14 Jeby

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                      Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:21 PM

                      Whoa. You really think that highly of Lillard? I wouldn't call him an offensive maestro. And I think that Westbrook is the closest to those 4. He probably  is about to become a superstar. And Rose does play defense.

                      Well, I really don't, but he looked so good for a rookie that its easy to get carried away.
                      As for Rose's defense--he's not a scrub (like Lillard), but he's not really an impact player on that end either. His pick-pocketing ability in particular is downright disappointing considering his athleticism.
                      "Assets" -- Daryl Morey

                      #15 bboley24

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                        Posted 22 July 2013 - 01:06 AM

                        Thank you for keeping kobe in the top 10.  Some of you left him out.  Don't know how that happens.  

                         

                        Gasol isn't a top 10 player but most definitely top 5 center.  

                         

                        Tony Parker IS the best point guard in the league despite what you people think about CP3 and RW and DR.  Athleticism can lick my butt at this position.  Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Marc Jackson, John Stockton... shall I go on?  You don't have to jump out of a building to be considered the best.

                        AND I DESPISE THE SPURS WITH A PASSION.



                        #16 timetodienow1234567

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                        Posted 22 July 2013 - 02:39 AM

                        Thank you for keeping kobe in the top 10.  Some of you left him out.  Don't know how that happens.  

                         

                        Gasol isn't a top 10 player but most definitely top 5 center.  

                         

                        Tony Parker IS the best point guard in the league despite what you people think about CP3 and RW and DR.  Athleticism can lick my butt at this position.  Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Marc Jackson, John Stockton... shall I go on?  You don't have to jump out of a building to be considered the best.

                        AND I DESPISE THE SPURS WITH A PASSION.

                         

                        Kobe is a year older. He's had a massive injury that will severely limit his mobility. He might not even play half of next year. There are PLENTY of valid reasons to keep him off this list.


                        Why so Serious? :D


                        #17 2016Champions

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                        Posted 22 July 2013 - 05:40 AM

                        Imo Kobe has always been overrated, and now that he is a horrible defender he's even more overrated. 


                        Debates are destructive as they present one-sided opinions and demolish reasoned arguments, whereas discussions are constructive and encourage the expression of opinion.

                         

                        Debate is the death of conversation.


                        #18 Cooper

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                          Posted 22 July 2013 - 05:44 AM

                          You still have a guranteed playoff team with Kobe (maybe this past year was the last this is true since his injury/age) but there is very few guys you could have said that about.

                          #19 2016Champions

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                          Posted 22 July 2013 - 05:45 AM

                          You still have a guranteed playoff team with Kobe (maybe this past year was the last this is true since his injury/age) but there is very few guys you could have said that about.

                          You realize the Lakers missed the playoffs after Shaq left right? 34 wins: http://www.basketbal...s/LAL/2005.html


                          Edited by 2016Champions, 22 July 2013 - 05:47 AM.

                          Debates are destructive as they present one-sided opinions and demolish reasoned arguments, whereas discussions are constructive and encourage the expression of opinion.

                           

                          Debate is the death of conversation.


                          #20 Ostrow

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                            Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:05 AM

                            If Howard is healthy they are the 2nd best duo, only behind Durant/Westbrook.  I didn't consider the Heat because LeBron and insert any Heat player is the "best duo" in the NBA because LeBron is so good.  Wade has fallen off so much as a player he doesn't qualify anymore.  Is the question who is the best duo or the best 2 players?  I would say that Harden/Howard, Paul/Griffin, Parker/Dunca are the best  duos because they can play off of each other better.. Durant/Westbrook still don't match in my opinion. Same as the Heat players, don't fit great together.

                            Since we are making lists, should we make a list of both?






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