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@  2016Champions : (22 June 2013 - 06:12 PM) While we're making changes, is it possible to add the option of spoiler tags?
@  2016Champions : (22 June 2013 - 06:12 PM) Oh I see, there's a time frame now.
@  2016Champions : (22 June 2013 - 06:08 PM) Why was the option of editing posts removed?
@  RollingWave : (19 June 2013 - 05:12 AM) so the head band is like a final power seal for Lebron, only open in absolute need
@  BenQueens : (19 June 2013 - 03:51 AM) Ray Allen, why not. This is going to be 5.2 intense seconds of ball.
@  BenQueens : (19 June 2013 - 03:39 AM) Holy crap, that Parker 3.
@  BenQueens : (19 June 2013 - 03:38 AM) Please let there be a game 7, and let this be the margin in the 4Q of 7. Awesome.
@  RollingWave : (19 June 2013 - 03:18 AM) oh my, this is an epic game .. one more run by Duncan should....
@  2016Champions : (17 June 2013 - 05:26 AM) I had a feeling Ginobili would regress to the mean.
@  Dan G : (17 June 2013 - 04:33 AM) Now I had no idea Ginobli was gonna pull a Wade and turn back the clock. I give Pop the majority of the credit for that.
@  Dan G : (17 June 2013 - 04:32 AM) I don't think it was too ballsy on San Antonio's part. With the way Splitter has been playing and since Miami has started Miller the last two games, I thought it was inevitable that Ginobli would start.
@  RollingWave : (17 June 2013 - 02:57 AM) I must say that both team had some serious ballsy lineup changes this series, Ginobilli start? and dominate?
@  2016Champions : (16 June 2013 - 09:26 PM) According to Dr. Klapper, treatment for Parker's hamstring will only last one half. Lateral movement and jumping will be a problem.
@  2016Champions : (16 June 2013 - 04:56 AM) Parker said Pop was very angry with him for the constant nagging insisting he can play, Pop really didn't want Parker to play. Just goes to show Pop knows best.
@  RollingWave : (16 June 2013 - 04:28 AM) Parker says his hamstring is almost shot , that would probably doom the Spurs if he can't play at least 80%
@  2016Champions : (15 June 2013 - 12:38 AM) Miami is 6-0 in playoffs following losses (outscoring opponents by 20.7 PPG in those games). They've won 12 straight games following losses.
@  2016Champions : (14 June 2013 - 04:50 PM) The Heat are notoriously slow starters. Once they get going it's like a snowball effect, they get more dangerous as they go along.
@  2016Champions : (14 June 2013 - 04:49 PM) My heart says SA, but my mind says MIA
@  rocketrick : (14 June 2013 - 11:06 AM) Anybody else going to San Antone for Game 5??
@  RollingWave : (14 June 2013 - 10:15 AM) The Heat is doomed / the Spurs is doom , repeat until game 7

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Better player All-Time: Hakeem vs Duncan?


54 replies to this topic

Poll: Better player All-Time: Hakeem vs Duncan? (15 member(s) have cast votes)

Better player All-Time: Hakeem vs Duncan?

  1. Hakeem (10 votes [66.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

  2. Duncan (5 votes [33.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  3. Tie (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 2016Champions

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 03:08 AM

Try not to be bias. Vote and discuss. 


Debates are destructive as they present one-sided opinions and demolish reasoned arguments, whereas discussions are constructive and encourage the expression of opinion.

 

Debate is the death of conversation.


#2 RollingWave

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    Posted 19 June 2013 - 03:20 AM

    it's close, by Duncan by a little.



    #3 thejohnnygold

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    Posted 19 June 2013 - 03:36 AM

    I gave the All-Time designation to Duncan--he has earned that.  However, for two years and then some there was no better player on the hardwood than Mr. Olajuwon.  He schooled the best of the best over, and over, and over....and I would venture to say that if Duncan played Olajuwon during that span he would have been schooled too.



    #4 Dan G

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      Posted 19 June 2013 - 05:16 AM

      Duncan may have more rings but Hakeem is much better defensively and offensively he had to play in the generation of the Center. Hakeem's post moves were a thing of beauty. I'd take the Dream Shake any day of the week over Duncan's masterful ability to go glass.

       

      Hell I'm surprised it is 3-1 Duncan over Hakeem  at the moment on a Rockets' blog. Duncan has one 30 point game in the Finals this year and all of a sudden Rocket fans forget how truly dominant The Dream was and he had to play against the likes of The Admiral, Shaq and Ewing all in their prime. I give all the props in the world to what Duncan has accomplished in his career but even Robert Horry who played with both Hakeem and Duncan said Hakeem was the better player.

       

      Maybe you youngins need a crash course in Hakeem's greatness:

       

       

      Shorter version of the Dream's dominance for those who don't have time to watch that whole clip:

       


      Edited by Dan G, 19 June 2013 - 05:41 AM.


      #5 rockets best fan

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      Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:23 AM

      @Dan G

      totally agree. what in the world is going on? you gotta be kidding me right? Duncan better than Hakeem? while Duncan is a great big man, not taking nothing from him, but Hakeem is in the conversation of greatest big men of all time. Duncan ain't in that conversation. I agree Dan G that Hakeem played against greater competition. the way he spanked Robinson's ass like a red head step child.....Duncan has NEVER dominated another MVP player like that. what other recent big man can say he faced competition on the level of pat ewing, david robinson, shaq and barkley twice in a 2 year span and still won the championship. Duncan is playing in a time where the traditional big man is almost nonexistent in the league. for proof just look at Howard..........do you think he could have out played the foursome I just named. yet he is right now considered the best center in the game. Dream is my favorite player of all time hands down. the man was so talented his moves were a work of art. he totally revolutionized the center position. why do you think the man charges 250,000.00 dollars for 2 weeks in his basketball camp and the line goes around the corner with NBA players try to squeeze in to absorb some of his valuable moves? when Duncan leaves I don't think the line will be around the corner for him. DREAM IS THE BEST CENTER I HAVE EVER SEEN PLAY THE GAME



      #6 feelingsupersonic

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      Posted 19 June 2013 - 02:36 PM

      Hakeem, it's an easy choice.

       The 2013 Red94 Fantasy Basketball League Champion


      #7 Rahat Huq

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        Posted 19 June 2013 - 03:04 PM

        It's not even close.  

         

        Duncan came into the league with a ready-made championship cast of Robinson, Johnson, Sean Elliott, etc.  Then went on to the spend the rest of his career flanked by Parker and Ginobili.  

         

        Olajuwon rotted away his athletic prime relying on the likes of Sleepy Floyd.  

         

        This isn't even close.  



        #8 PKM

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          Posted 19 June 2013 - 03:48 PM

          Hell I'm surprised it is 3-1 Duncan over Hakeem  at the moment on a
          Rockets' blog. Duncan has one 30 point game in the Finals this year and
          all of a sudden Rocket fans forget how truly dominant The Dream was and
          he had to play against the likes of The Admiral, Shaq and Ewing all in
          their prime. I give all the props in the world to what Duncan has
          accomplished in his career but even Robert Horry who played with both
          Hakeem and Duncan said Hakeem was the better player.

           

          I think people are observing these 30 point games and this sort of stuff because while Hakeem at 37 just wasn't himself anymore, Duncan at 37 is doing this sort of stuff and making the All-NBA 1st team.  It's a testament to his durability and the length of his career. 

           

          I'll take Duncan, even though Olajuwon at his height was better.  I'm not too fond of a lot of some of the pro-Hakeem arguments, however, because you could honestly use this stuff to argue that Hakeem was better than say, Kareem, and that's just ridiculous.



          #9 thejohnnygold

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          Posted 19 June 2013 - 03:53 PM

          I gave the All-Time designation to Duncan--he has earned that.  However, for two years and then some there was no better player on the hardwood than Mr. Olajuwon.  He schooled the best of the best over, and over, and over....and I would venture to say that if Duncan played Olajuwon during that span he would have been schooled too.

           

          I should amend this--I was giving too much credence to overall career--I see that this is not the question being asked.  Clearly, Olajuwon is the better player--as I noted above, Let's not dismiss Duncan so easily though--yes, Hakeem battled some of the best to ever roam the paint.  Tim Duncan has battled with the likes of Shaq, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Karl Malone, (healthy) A'Mare, and Chris Webber--to name a few.  Those guys aren't chumps.



          #10 Freebird

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          Posted 19 June 2013 - 04:43 PM

          I've posted this before, but it's still relevant:

           

          http://www.grantland...houston-rockets

           

          Basically, Hakeem and the Rockets were a threat to the LA/Boston rivalry in the 80's, so Stern squashed them.  Hakeem was overshadowed by Jabbar and Ewing, but was as skilled, if not more so, than they.  A true athletic center had not been seen up until then, and hasn't been seen since.

           

          Duncan, while great, was a product of good timing and great management by the Spurs organization.  As a small market team, they had to take risks on draft day and in the FA market, and many of those paid off over the years.  I believe that Duncan could have easily floundered in the big markets (NY, LA) just because of his introverted nature.

           

          All the same, they are both top 10 in their positions.  Why are they being compared?  PF vs C is apples vs oranges.  They are both great, and we've had the opportunity to watch both.



          #11 rockets best fan

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          Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:51 PM

          I should amend this--I was giving too much credence to overall career--I see that this is not the question being asked.  Clearly, Olajuwon is the better player--as I noted above, Let's not dismiss Duncan so easily though--yes, Hakeem battled some of the best to ever roam the paint.  Tim Duncan has battled with the likes of Shaq, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Karl Malone, (healthy) A'Mare, and Chris Webber--to name a few.  Those guys aren't chumps.

          true those guys are no chumps especially Shaq, but none of the rest compare to dreams competition and Dream play against Shaq

          A'Mare<Robinson

          Pau Gasol<Ewing

          Dirk Nowitzki= Barkley

          Hakeem played against Malone2 times in the same 2 year period in the playoffs while Malone was in his prime I might add

          KG is the best of this litter and Hakeem would have dominated him



          #12 John P

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            Posted 19 June 2013 - 07:15 PM

            I voted for the Dream. I couldn't not vote for Hakeem.

             

            I would say this.....its very very close.  Both are different types of players playing in different eras and with different team mates.

            We know that Dream was the best of his generation/era...  He schooled Ewing, young Shaq, etc.....  

            He also had a pretty medicore team once Sampson fell apart and until Clyde showed up for the second championship.

            That goes a long long long way to giving Dream the upper hand.

             

            Duncan is so great...has been so great for so long, but so was dream.  A big factor that Duncan has been more successful is that he has had Pop and great teammates.   ...basically better luck.

             

            But honestly, lets really not spend time debating it.  Both are great players...both played in Texas.  What else do you want.



            #13 Steven

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              Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:04 PM

              4 or 5 VS. 2. Not even close.

              #14 2016Champions

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              Posted 19 June 2013 - 11:26 PM

              Imo who you vote on here depends on how much stock you put into longevity, consistency, legacy vs peak greatness. Hakeem's peak was more memorable than Duncan's, while Duncan had the better career, so which do you value more? Honestly I want to say Hakeem, I didn't spend $250 on his retro jersey for nothing, but I'm going to have to play Devil's advocate a little bit here because I was really surprised by some comments I've read and who they were said by:



              I don't know Rahut personally, but it surprised me when I saw him say that this discussion shouldn't even be taken seriously, Duncan is widely considered by many as a top 7-10 player of all-time. Maybe Rahut has a point though, lets discuss. One of common arguments is that Hakeem dominated better competition, and one of those dominant performances was highlighted by a video Dan G posted--the dominance against Shaq in the 1995 finals. People talk about this like it was the greatest thing ever, but lets be fair, he dominated a very young and inexperienced Shaq--not prime Shaq. Despite only having just turned 23 years old, Shaq's stat-line isn't exactly anything to sneeze at either--28 ppg, 12.5 rebs, 6.3 asts, 2.5 blks, 59.5%fg. Obviously Hakeem still got the best of Shaq, but just remember Hakeem was in the peak of his prime and Shaq wasn't.

              Another thing people like to bring up is Hakeem's dominance over David Robinson, and this happened on the same year Robinson won MVP. Personally, I thought Robinson was more of a help defender than a lock-down guy, 1vs1 he was always prone to jumping at pump fakes so a guy like Hakeem was a horrible match-up for him. It's just important to take everything within context, and keep in consideration that these performances came within a 2 year span (during the years Jordan retired and came back, and the Jazz weren't at their best, so keep that in mind when calling Duncan lucky), there is very little talk about the other 15 years of Hakeem's career which is relevant to Hakeem's legacy. Hakeem was very inconsistent throughout his career, and he hit his prime at around 31 years old which wasn't too long before his decline. If we ignore a player's entire career and focus in on only the best few years, maybe Bill Walton, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Tracy McGracy, and David Thompson should be ranked alot higher than they typically are. Simply put, there are inconsistencies with the arguments used to insinuate that Duncan doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Hakeem. Most All-Time lists I've seen actually rank Duncan higher which alone should justify the existence of this discussion. 

              Don't get me wrong, I would choose Hakeem over Duncan but I try not to be too bias about it, I'm just playing Devil's advocate here talking about why Duncan deserves to be compared to Hakeem. Duncan is the anchor of a team that has won at least 50 games for 13 consecutive years (very impressive stat imo), and in those 13 years he has won 4 championships, 2 MVP's, and 3 finals MVP's. His PER is the 7th highest in history, and he steps it up in the playoffs as evidenced in the 2003 finals which is arguably the most underrated finals performance of all-time. Despite going up against two top-notch defensive players in Kenyon Martin and Dikembe Mutombo, and despite lacking a superstar teammate to deflect attention (Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili were just getting their feet wet, while D-Rob was on his way out), Duncan completely dominated. His averages of 24.2 points, 17 boards and 5.3 assists were impressive enough, but what really sealed the deal was his defense. Duncan averaged 5.3 blocks per game for the series, the most of any player since the merger, and was at his best in the clinching game 6 as SA rallied form an eight-point forth-quarter deficit. He fell 2 blocks shy of a quadruple-double and foced the Nets' Martin into a 3 for 33 disaster from the floor. Overall his 32.0 PER for the series is the second-best in finals history since the merger. There is so much more to what makes Duncan great, but I have plans for Christmas so I'm going to just cap this post off here for now:


              Edited by 2016Champions, 20 June 2013 - 02:46 PM.

              Debates are destructive as they present one-sided opinions and demolish reasoned arguments, whereas discussions are constructive and encourage the expression of opinion.

               

              Debate is the death of conversation.


              #15 PKM

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                Posted 19 June 2013 - 11:58 PM

                I guess what really surprises me with Rahat's tweet is that apparently comparing Shaq to Hakeem is reasonable, but comparing Duncan to Hakeem isn't.  The implication thus is that Shaq was not just better, but much better than Duncan, and I can't agree with that all.



                #16 Dan G

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                  Posted 20 June 2013 - 12:00 AM

                  I think people are observing these 30 point games and this sort of stuff because while Hakeem at 37 just wasn't himself anymore, Duncan at 37 is doing this sort of stuff and making the All-NBA 1st team.  It's a testament to his durability and the length of his career. 

                   

                  I'll take Duncan, even though Olajuwon at his height was better.  I'm not too fond of a lot of some of the pro-Hakeem arguments, however, because you could honestly use this stuff to argue that Hakeem was better than say, Kareem, and that's just ridiculous.

                  First of all I do believe you mean 30 point game and not games (and boy did he fizzle in the second half as I thought for sure he was gonna score atleast 40 and had he done so he would have #5 already), but I see your point; however, you talk about not being too fond of the pro-Hakeem arguments, but the pro-Duncan argument of his durability and length of his career to me doesn't hold much weight.

                   

                  The numbers don't lie Olajuwan had a much better career than Duncan and not just during Hakeem's height.

                   

                  Hakeem's stats:

                  http://www.basketbal.../olajuha01.html

                   

                  Duncan's stats:

                  http://www.basketbal.../duncati01.html

                   

                  I definitely give Duncan his props for what he accomplished this year, but I think most forget how pedestrian Duncan's stats were the last two seasons before this one (15.4 PPG and 9 RPG last season and 13.4 PPG and 8.9 RPG the season before). At the same age Olajuwan was putting up 16.4 PPG and 9.8 RPG at age 35 and 23.2 PPG and 9.2 RPG at age 34. Not to mention he was still averaging 2 blocks and 1.5 steals a game during that stretch.

                   

                  Maybe Duncan has been and will be better in the twilight of his career compared to Hakeem but it doesn't negate the fact that Duncan's overall career numbers can't hold a candle compared to The Dream's numbers and the fact that the Dream did so under such duress just adds to it.


                  Edited by Dan G, 20 June 2013 - 12:05 AM.


                  #17 2016Champions

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                  Posted 20 June 2013 - 12:47 AM

                  First of all I do believe you mean 30 point game and not games (and boy did he fizzle in the second half as I thought for sure he was gonna score atleast 40 and had he done so he would have #5 already), but I see your point; however, you talk about not being too fond of the pro-Hakeem arguments, but the pro-Duncan argument of his durability and length of his career to me doesn't hold much weight.

                   

                  The numbers don't lie Olajuwan had a much better career than Duncan and not just during Hakeem's height.

                   

                  Hakeem's stats:

                  http://www.basketbal.../olajuha01.html

                   

                  Duncan's stats:

                  http://www.basketbal.../duncati01.html

                   

                  I definitely give Duncan his props for what he accomplished this year, but I think most forget how pedestrian Duncan's stats were the last two seasons before this one (15.4 PPG and 9 RPG last season and 13.4 PPG and 8.9 RPG the season before). At the same age Olajuwan was putting up 16.4 PPG and 9.8 RPG at age 35 and 23.2 PPG and 9.2 RPG at age 34. Not to mention he was still averaging 2 blocks and 1.5 steals a game during that stretch.

                   

                  Maybe Duncan has been and will be better in the twilight of his career compared to Hakeem but it doesn't negate the fact that Duncan's overall career numbers can't hold a candle compared to The Dream's numbers and the fact that the Dream did so under such duress just adds to it.

                  Comparing their numbers at face value is misleading imo, you're completely ignoring the difference in pace. Faster pace = more possessions. 

                   

                  For example, the Houston Rockets led the league in points allowed this season, but once you adjust for pace we actually ranked 16th defensively--big difference.


                  Edited by 2016Champions, 20 June 2013 - 12:53 AM.

                  Debates are destructive as they present one-sided opinions and demolish reasoned arguments, whereas discussions are constructive and encourage the expression of opinion.

                   

                  Debate is the death of conversation.


                  #18 Dan G

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                    Posted 20 June 2013 - 01:50 AM

                    Comparing their numbers at face value is misleading imo, you're completely ignoring the difference in pace. Faster pace = more possessions. 

                     

                    For example, the Houston Rockets led the league in points allowed this season, but once you adjust for pace we actually ranked 16th defensively--big difference.

                    I disagree with this. Pace is more of a team statistic. Now if we were going to compare the Rockets and Spurs as a whole during the Duncan and Hakeem years, that would be a different story.



                    #19 2016Champions

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                    Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:17 AM

                    huh..


                    Debates are destructive as they present one-sided opinions and demolish reasoned arguments, whereas discussions are constructive and encourage the expression of opinion.

                     

                    Debate is the death of conversation.


                    #20 PKM

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                      Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:34 AM

                      I disagree with this. Pace is more of a team statistic. Now if we were going to compare the Rockets and Spurs as a whole during the Duncan and Hakeem years, that would be a different story.

                      What? A team pace can clearly affect the individual statistics, so I don't see why you disagree.  A team that slows it down and grinds it out will have far less opportunities for its players to put up volume numbers.






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