41 replies to this topic

[Rahat Huq]

This is what Dwight Howard said in explaining why Ibaka should have won the DPOY over Marc Gasol.

 

There was a post somewhere in one of the threads where some of you were saying "players are smart enough something something".....I was going to type a reply explaining why I disagreed but I figured this quote would suffice as proof.  

 

Really, really dumb statement.

[Jason]

I read this too and shook my head. Howard clearly doesn't get it. However, it Is a joke that Gasol won this award. His team plays great Team defense, but there is no way that he is the best individual defender in the league. He's not even the best individual defender on his own team! That would be Tony Allen. Asik is a better defensive center than Gasol.

[2016Champions]

I think there are at least 4 players who deserved the DPoY award, and Marc Gasol was one of them. 

[thejohnnygold]

This is what Dwight Howard said in explaining why Ibaka should have won the DPOY over Marc Gasol.

 

There was a post somewhere in one of the threads where some of you were saying "players are smart enough something something".....I was going to type a reply explaining why I disagreed but I figured this quote would suffice as proof.  

 

Really, really dumb statement.

I think that was me....I was saying that, on the whole, players know who is good and who is not amongst their peers.  Don't let Dwight diminish the value of that--he is an idiot man-child.  That would be the same as presuming that one idiot remark made by someone on this forum was a true reflection of all of us.

 

That being said, I am curious to hear your take on it.  I am willing to be swayed on the matter

[Jason]

I think there are at least 4 players who deserved the DPoY award, and Marc Gasol was one of them.

Since when is Marc Gasol a GREAT defender? I'm still confused by this (as is Howard). I would not even put him in the top 20 when I think of the best defenders in basketball. I am thinking that this is overuse of advanced statistics which to me has more to do with the way Memphis plays team defense than Gasol individually. Marc Gasol might just be the worst defensive player in the history of the league to have won this award. Mind boggling.

[2016Champions]

Since when is Marc Gasol a GREAT defender? I'm still confused by this (as is Howard). I would not even put him in the top 20 when I think of the best defenders in basketball. I am thinking that this is overuse of advanced statistics which to me has more to do with the way Memphis plays team defense than Gasol individually. Marc Gasol might just be the worst defensive player in the history of the league to have won this award. Mind boggling.

If these awards were based on advanced statistics, there's no way in hell Ibaka and Lebron would be in the top 3 of DPoY votes ahead of guys like Duncan and Garnett. Lowe wrote a very insightful article on Marc Gasol, here's are some highlights:

 

Back in January, Grantland's Zach Lowe published a column naming the winners of his "not quite midseason awards." After calling Marc Gasol the front-runner for Defensive Player of the Year, Lowe wrote, "I'm not sure there's a larger gap between the level of nationwide fan appreciation for a player and the level of appreciation from coaches/scouts/league executives for that player than the gap for Gasol. People inside the league adore this guy."

 

On defense it's the same — Gasol focuses on bodying his man when his man is a threat, and then sliding over to help when he's not.

These seem like simple things, but they're as much instinctive as they are learned, and they require versatility that few players, especially big men, possess. "What he does," says the executive, "coaches try to teach it, but they can't."

For Gasol, defense starts with your one-on-one matchup. The night before we met, he'd held Dwight Howard to two points on 0-for-4 shooting. (To be fair, Howard played only 14 minutes before aggravating the torn labrum in his shoulder and leaving the game.) Gasol had come equipped with a defensive plan tailored for Howard, which he'd executed to perfection. Sitting in the coffee shop, he explained. "When Dwight sets a screen, he rolls immediately to the basket. So you can't show out on him. The second you do, you've lost him. If the guard comes in from the wing to help, then Steve [Nash] is going to hit the open man for a 3. If the guard doesn't come in, then it's a lob, and no matter where he throws it, Dwight's going to go get it." Conley fights through screens to stick with Nash. "So if I don't have to show, then I can bump Dwight off course early and keep him from getting the path he wants to the basket."

 

 

Gasol has become a master of the pick-and-roll hip check. "That's not only about not letting him get the ball for an easy shot," says Gasol. "That's also about the rebound. You have to already be working on that, before you even know if the shot is going up."

Says the Western Conference scout: "A lot of big guys — most of them, really — can't guard their man one-on-one. They have to get help, and obviously that changes everything defensively. He's someone who you know, every night, he doesn't need help." On the other hand, the Eastern Conference scout points to Gasol's willingness to work outside of his individual matchup. "So many players don't want to help, because they're scared to leave their man," he says. "If they leave their man, they'll get scored on, and that looks bad on them. He doesn't care about that at all. He'll switch at any point."

Here's how Gasol sees it: "The whole thing is like a dance. I don't know if that's weird to say, but you can dance with the ball. You're following the ball and making small adjustments, one or two steps, and just by doing that you can take away so many things. If you get to where the ball is going early, then you're controlling what happens. You're forcing him to go where he doesn't want to go. Then eventually 24 seconds are almost gone, and in those last few seconds, then it just comes down to your one-on-one matchup."

[Jason]

Ok, so he has a very high basketball IQ on both ends of the floor. I agree with that. But there is No Way that he is currently the Best defensive player in basketball. Him winning this has made the award a joke.

[Jason]

The man doesn't even get defensive rebounds and he's 7'1" tall! He averaged 5.5 DRB per game in 35 MPG. Compare that to Asik who averaged 8.3 DRB in only 30 MPG!

[Ostrow]

Manu made an interesting point. Let the players vote.

[thenit]

People here just tends to say he is not a good defender because he doesn't do the eye catching plays like Ibaka does with his blocks.

Gasol is a smart defender, doesn't lose his positioning, he thinks defense.

Players like Allen and Iggy are great defenders, but they are more flashy with steals and staying close to their man, but its equally important to do what Gasol does, in help defending, man on man on the low post. If you don't watch enough Grizzlies games its hard to appreciate what he does because you don't see Highlights of the way Gasol defends.

 

It's kind of the way how Asik was under appreciated by most GM's except for Morey. And today most of us would argue that Asik should have been a top 5 nominee for DPOY and MIP. A lost of fans wouldn't understand it. So unless you watch a lot of games without highlights to understand the nuance of different players its easy to get ahead of your opinion by listening to "experts" who only sees the espn highlights and crowns the players as great defensive players. Example is how KG has regressed as a defender but is still value very highly by reputation. It's hard to lose a reputation once you garner some, both good and bad.

 

Gasol deserved it and if you believe that Allen is a great defender which he is, but LBJ is so much better basically can guard anyone at any position including center by fronting. But he never wins this award because the voters think oh he will get the MVP we don't need to give him this one too. There were 4 players that could have won it and they all would have been worthy.

[Jason]

Asik deserved it over Gasol

[2016Champions]

Manu made an interesting point. Let the players vote.

I think we should let the GM's and top scouts vote. If we're talking about evaluating players, doesn't it make sense to leave it to the guys whose job practically revolves around how well they evaluate players? 

[Jason]

I think we should let the GM's and top scouts vote. If we're talking about evaluating players, doesn't it make sense to leave it to the guys whose job practically revolves around how well they evaluate players?

No, because the players are on the court and are actually experiencing the defense being played by their peers. They know more than the nerds from the sidelines acting like they know what's going on.

[thenit]

Asik deserved it over Gasol

 

Well I guess we will agree to disagree.

 

I played profesional soccer for a couple of years in Europe. Not sure if you get this analogy. Its like a goalkeeper who never has to dive. He will get the shotouts and saves because he is always in good position to just catch the ball more often than a goalie who is out of position and has to dive to make the save. One would look great but the stats won't be as the goalie with the great stats, and people sometimes would say oh because he never has to make a crazy save. Thats the difference between Ibaka and Gasol.

 

Same could be said about a defender in soccer who always think and are proactive by reading the play. Rahter than a defender who makes an great looking slide tackle. I rather have the one who reads the play and can just take the ball in more control.

[Jason]

Well I guess we will agree to disagree.

I played profesional soccer for a couple of years in Europe. Not sure if you get this analogy. Its like a goalkeeper who never has to dive. He will get the shotouts and saves because he is always in good position to just catch the ball more often than a goalie who is out of position and has to dive to make the save. One would look great but the stats won't be as the goalie with the great stats, and people sometimes would say oh because he never has to make a crazy save. Thats the difference between Ibaka and Gasol.

Same could be said about a defender in soccer who always think and are proactive by reading the play. Rahter than a defender who makes an great looking slide tackle. I rather have the one who reads the play and can just take the ball in more control.

I said Asik, not Ibaka

[thenit]

Asik is in the same mold as Gasol, but Gasol still had a better season overall, whether its due to the team they play in its up for discussion. It's hard to win the award if you play in a team thats below average defensively and gives up the most points. Not sure where we finished there but it was bottom 3 I think.  I think Asik should have been a top 5 nominee, but because like i said earlier he is in hte same mold as Gasol and doesn't get full credit because he is not flashy they just stay in the right position. Gasol is very good helpdefender and as 2016 allueded to the article he posted explains a lot of what he does. 

[PKM]

The man doesn't even get defensive rebounds and he's 7'1" tall! He averaged 5.5 DRB per game in 35 MPG. Compare that to Asik who averaged 8.3 DRB in only 30 MPG!

How is that all that important in playing defense?  No one is going around saying Reggie Evans and Vucevic are All-Defensive players. 

 

Gasol is one of the main defensive anchors for one of the best defensive teams in the league.  He wouldn't have been my choice - I pretty much would have just handed it to Duncan as a legacy award - but he's a good choice, and I would take him over Asik.

[2016Champions]

I agree with handing it to Duncan as a legacy award, it might sound like a flawed reason to favor someone but I see it as more of a "tie-breaker" considering there were 4-6 guys who deserved it imo. I thought Duncan deserved it last season too. 

[Jason]

How is that all that important in playing defense? No one is going around saying Reggie Evans and Vucevic are All-Defensive players.

Gasol is one of the main defensive anchors for one of the best defensive teams in the league. He wouldn't have been my choice - I pretty much would have just handed it to Duncan as a legacy award - but he's a good choice, and I would take him over Asik.

Because if you don't secure a rebound than any defense you play is useless. I have never seen a center win a DPOY award in all my existence who did not average double digit rebounds. And again, Gasol is not even the best defender on his own team so how can he be the best in the league! What a joke this is.

[2016Champions]

You asked me earlier, and I paraphrase, "who would trust the opinion of someone who's open minded?", well let me answer your question with a question: why would you rather trust the opinion of someone who's closed to learning new things/perspectives? 

 

There are many highly respected analysts/writers who think very highly of Marc Gasol's defense, have you read/heard the things they've said? Or are you just closed minded to what they're talking about?