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@  2016Champions : (28 April 2013 - 04:49 AM) McHale says he was trying to get officials' attention to call timeout after KD 3. When turnover ensued, did NOT want team to foul.
@  pharmag : (28 April 2013 - 04:33 AM) Lin probably should have sat the whole game...however he didn't and then Bev got into foul trouble early and it was either see what Lin can do or play Aaron Brooks.  Used to like Brooks, but he isn't the player from his MIP year and he is a huge liability on defense.
@  miketheodio : (28 April 2013 - 04:33 AM) frustrating team to be a fan of.
@  thenit : (28 April 2013 - 04:32 AM) Heartbroken, going to cry myself to slep now :(
@  thenit : (28 April 2013 - 04:31 AM) If I was Mchale watching Lin wince every shoot he took in the warmup, I would just had said I'm sitting you, because there is no way a player will say coach i can't play
@  thenit : (28 April 2013 - 04:30 AM) we are notoriously slow starters.
@  thenit : (28 April 2013 - 04:30 AM) I have critized Mchale for not lettng Lin play enough and tonight when I didn't want Lin to play he plays him lol
@  pharmag : (28 April 2013 - 04:30 AM) One of the biggest things with this team is they don't come out swinging (especially on defense).  They wait until they take a few sharp jabs to the jaw.  As long as their shots are falling it doesn't hurt them to bad, but when they aren't, it leads to the 20 point holes they have to dig out of...
@  thenit : (28 April 2013 - 04:28 AM) were u at the game bboley?
@  thenit : (28 April 2013 - 04:28 AM) if they would have wanted to foul they would have done it earlier, not wait until its 8 on the shot clock
@  bboley24 : (28 April 2013 - 04:27 AM) "To play us out, what does that mean to play us out?  There are no words!"

-Bill Oreilly
@  thenit : (28 April 2013 - 04:27 AM) Yea I know just hard to take when its back to back, you fight your way back and then you can't setup a good play
@  pharmag : (28 April 2013 - 04:27 AM) 2016 he didn't.  It was obvious he was annoyed...
@  thenit : (28 April 2013 - 04:26 AM) why were u watching on laptop ? its on espn
@  pharmag : (28 April 2013 - 04:26 AM) That is actually a very good play during the course of the game.  It was only a bad play because the Thunder knew the 3 was coming.  Without the threat of the weakside drive once Delfino receives ball, it is easy to guard.  However, youth will learn (and hopefully coach will too)
@  2016Champions : (28 April 2013 - 04:26 AM) pretty sure McHale didn't want a foul there
@  thenit : (28 April 2013 - 04:26 AM) so damn pissed and proud of the team
@  2016Champions : (28 April 2013 - 04:26 AM) oh I missed it, my laptop crashed after the Garcia foul on Fisher
@  thenit : (28 April 2013 - 04:25 AM) the 3 guys who kept us in the game killed us at the end. Garcia with the foul, Parson and Harden with the turnovers when we had the lead
@  thenit : (28 April 2013 - 04:24 AM) yea I agree there. the last play was bad, MCHALE should draw a better play than that. Thats twice now

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Are Elite PGs overrated?


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#1 timetodienow1234567

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:54 AM

List of Top PGs to not win in recent years

Nash

CP3

Westbrook

Irving

Kidd(won one as a role player)

Iverson

Stockton

Rose

D-Will

 

The list goes on and on. Some of these guys you can explain away, but I'm sensing a pattern here. PG is just not that important. You need a solid one and that's it.


Why so Serious? :D


#2 Dan G

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    Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:05 AM

    I actually agree with that which is the reason why you haven't seen me campaigning to sign CP3 with our cap space. Sure he will make us better but I don't think he can take us to the promise land. You really only need a point guard that isn't completely useless to win a championship. Having an above average one is a plus but not a deal breaker if you don't have one.



    #3 Steven

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      Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:05 AM

      LeBron won it last year and he is the PG.

      #4 Jason

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        Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:36 AM

        List of Top PGs to not win in recent years
        Nash
        CP3
        Westbrook
        Irving
        Kidd(won one as a role player)
        Iverson
        Stockton
        Rose
        D-Will

        The list goes on and on. Some of these guys you can explain away, but I'm sensing a pattern here. PG is just not that important. You need a solid one and that's it.


        Just depends on who else you have on your team. If Lin doesn't dramatically improve and become elite then we are probably more than just one star away from contending.

        #5 Ostrow

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          Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:09 AM

          You need an elite guard to win a championship.  Every team that has won one as far back as I can has had an elite guard except the Mavs (had Kidd he wasn't the same Kidd and Dirk who plays a lot like a guard) and probably the first Rockets team.  Every other team has one.



          #6 2016Champions

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          Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:20 AM

          James Harden is an elite guard. You don't need an elite pg, there have many championship teams that have won without an elite pg.


          "Someone created the box score, and he should be shot" - Daryl Morey

           “Every [player] decision has two main components, the scouting or traditional analysis and the numbers … depending on the situation, you weight them differently.” - Daryl Morey

           

          Friendly reminders:

          Small sample sizes exaggerate effects. 

          Do not read statistics as gospel. Statistics provides tools that you need in order to react intelligently to information you hear or see.


          #7 Sir Thursday

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          Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:43 AM

          Isn't it more that there are just so many top PGs around at the moment? Not all of them can win - there aren't enough championships to go around. In any case, listing some PGs and saying "none of these guys has won" doesn't prove that you don't need a good point guard running your team, just that having a good point guard on your team is not a guarantor of success. The two are not equivalent ;).

           

          ST



          #8 Futureinterest

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          Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:14 PM

          I think Harden is actually our PG a lot of the times... and he's elite right?  :P


           “Losing like this was definitely good for us.” - Some crazy guy with no D.


          #9 thenit

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            Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:51 PM

            I think Harden is actually our PG a lot of the times... and he's elite right?   :P

             

            He is not an elite PG, because his assist to turnover ratio is terrbile. He goes iso too often and doesn't distribute enough, which should be higher with his usage rate.



            #10 thejohnnygold

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            Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:20 PM

            For what it's worth, Jason Terry played incredibly well during that Mav's run--giving them the elite guard play they needed.  Also, JJ Barea was a nightmare for opposing defenses--somehow.

             

            Sir Thursday nailed it.  We have a ton of amazing point guards right now.  I call it the Michael Jordan Effect.  We are now in that time period where kids who grew up watching Michael (and Allen Iverson and then Kobe) all wanted to be their hero (Yes, I know he was a SG).  They all want to have the ball in their hands and lead their team to victory.  This will soon give way to the "Lebron-ites".  In 10 years we will see an influx of crazy good hybrid forwards that can do everything.  It will be awesome.



            #11 cjuice28

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:33 PM

              Its more important to have skilled bigs who can do multiple things, because there are fewer of them compared to PGs, and thus there tends to be more of a gap in "replacement value."



              #12 timetodienow1234567

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:43 PM

              For what it's worth, Jason Terry played incredibly well during that Mav's run--giving them the elite guard play they needed. Also, JJ Barea was a nightmare for opposing defenses--somehow.

              Sir Thursday nailed it. We have a ton of amazing point guards right now. I call it the Michael Jordan Effect. We are now in that time period where kids who grew up watching Michael (and Allen Iverson and then Kobe) all wanted to be their hero (Yes, I know he was a SG). They all want to have the ball in their hands and lead their team to victory. This will soon give way to the "Lebron-ites". In 10 years we will see an influx of crazy good hybrid forwards that can do everything. It will be awesome.


              I was talking about elite pgs like CP3 Rose Irving Westbrook Parker. I agree you need a good to great PG but not an elite one. But look at PFs.
              Duncan
              Gasol
              Garnett
              Bosh
              Sheed was close that year they won

              It's an interesting discussion to me.

              Why so Serious? :D


              #13 thejohnnygold

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:57 PM

              You're right.  I think what the pattern shows is you need balanced inside-out play.  If your team is only strong in one area the defense can shut it off.  When there is balance the defense must play honest, or pick their poison.  Further, teams with good big men tend to have better defenses...and that never hurts.

               

              Further, most of those big men played next to a solid front court mate:

               

              Duncan had Robinson (once, and then not so much after that...but they balanced it with two top level guards) (PG Parker/Ginoboli)

               

              Gasol had Bynum and Odom (PG Fisher/Kobe)

               

              Garnett had Perkins to form an excellent defensive wall in the paint (PG Rondo)

               

              Bosh has Lebron and Haslem (PG Chalmers/Cole...and Lebron again)

               

              Sheed had Ben Wallace and Mehmet Okur (PG Billups, Mike James, Chucky Atkins)



              #14 Sir Thursday

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:57 PM

              I was talking about elite pgs like CP3 Rose Irving Westbrook Parker. I agree you need a good to great PG but not an elite one. But look at PFs.
              Duncan
              Gasol
              Garnett
              Bosh
              Sheed was close that year they won

              It's an interesting discussion to me.

               

              Thing is, you can also construct a list of All-Star level PFs who haven't won anything, eg:

               

              Aldridge

              Randolph

              Gasol, M

              Lee

              Horford

              Griffin

              Anthony

              Stoudemire (In his prime rather than now)

               

              So it's not the case that having an All-Star calibre PF is enough to lead you to glory either.

               

              On the other hand, there are several very talented PGs who have won championships recently:

               

              Parker

              Billups

              Rondo

              Kidd (admittedly, this one is asterisk worthy given that he was a bit older at the time).

               

              The point is, for both positions you can construct lists of very good players at that position who have both won and not won championships. If you're only considering one of those two lists, then you can't really draw accurate conclusions about whether such players are necessary.

               

              ST



              #15 Freebird

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:06 PM

              Elite PGs aren't overrated - they just need the proper amount of talent around them to win anything.  Just like anyone else.  There tends to be a need for 2 elite players (or more) to be on a team for them to compete for the championship, but this isn't always the case (think LeBron in Cleveland).  An elite guard with an elite big is the duo of choice - thus all of our speculation on which big to get.  :)



              #16 timetodienow1234567

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:06 PM

              Thing is, you can also construct a list of All-Star level PFs who haven't won anything, eg:

               

              Aldridge

              Randolph

              Gasol, M

              Lee

              Horford

              Griffin

              Anthony

              Stoudemire (In his prime rather than now)

               

              So it's not the case that having an All-Star calibre PF is enough to lead you to glory either.

               

              On the other hand, there are several very talented PGs who have won championships recently:

               

              Parker

              Billups

              Rondo

              Kidd (admittedly, this one is asterisk worthy given that he was a bit older at the time).

               

              The point is, for both positions you can construct lists of very good players at that position who have both won and not won championships. If you're only considering one of those two lists, then you can't really draw accurate conclusions about whether such players are necessary.

               

              ST

               

              Parker in '07 wasn't considered elite. He was still building his way up there. I would put him on the borderline of the elite PGs at that time.

              Billups was not elite, borderline like Parker. Iverson/Arenas ruled the PG position back then.

              Rondo was nowhere near elite when he won a ring.

              Kidd deservedly has an asterisk.

               

              And those PFs you mentioned, only a few were what I would consider elite would be Amare, pre-knee injury. The rest are just good all-stars. There's a difference between these guys and Duncan/Dirk/KG just like there's a difference between Joe Johnson and Kobe/Wade.

               

              All I'm saying is that having an elite PG is not as big of a deal as having an elite C/PF/SF. So if it came down to having Dwight or CP3, I'd take Dwight every day of the year(assuming he's healthy). Because a superstar C is more valuable than a superstar PG.


              Why so Serious? :D


              #17 Sir Thursday

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:30 PM

              Well let me ask you this - are Duncan/Dirk/KG/Gasol considered 'elite' because they won a championship, or did they win a championship because they were 'elite'? Before winning his title, I'd argue that Dirk was considered to be in about the category that a lot of the PFs I'd listed are in now. Ditto Pau Gasol before he joined the Lakers. They were both known to be franchise-level talents in the same way that Stoudemire, Anthony or Aldridge are, but they didn't get the same 'he's a tier above the rest' respect that you're giving them now. Is this not a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts? PFs who win championships get the 'elite' tag foisted on them, thereby showing that you need an 'elite' PF to win? 

               

              ST



              #18 thejohnnygold

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:36 PM

              ^I second this



              #19 2016Champions

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 11:00 PM

              I think guys like Camelo and Aldridge were never "elite" the way Duncan and Garnett were elite, championship or no championship. Even in Garnett's days with the Wolves he was clearly elite, and he didn't need a championship before that tag was foisted upon him. There are plenty of other examples, Barkley, Malone, Chris Paul.

               

              When you mention guys like Melo and Aldridge, I think what you're talking about are the players who are on the borderline of elite but general fans aren't sure which way to lean until a championship gives the nudge needed to get over that borderline, a good example of this is Dirk. 


              "Someone created the box score, and he should be shot" - Daryl Morey

               “Every [player] decision has two main components, the scouting or traditional analysis and the numbers … depending on the situation, you weight them differently.” - Daryl Morey

               

              Friendly reminders:

              Small sample sizes exaggerate effects. 

              Do not read statistics as gospel. Statistics provides tools that you need in order to react intelligently to information you hear or see.


              #20 Cooper

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                Posted 23 April 2013 - 11:56 PM

                I don't think it's about the position more so than the player, some elite players aren't really elite and some moreso than others. you could say the heat won the championship with an average pg but that's because they had bron wade and bosh, it's more about the collection of talent and how they play togheter rather than just getting exact positions. Infact lebron wade and bosh all play multiple positions.




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