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@  2016Champions : (17 June 2013 - 05:26 AM) I had a feeling Ginobili would regress to the mean.
@  Dan G : (17 June 2013 - 04:33 AM) Now I had no idea Ginobli was gonna pull a Wade and turn back the clock. I give Pop the majority of the credit for that.
@  Dan G : (17 June 2013 - 04:32 AM) I don't think it was too ballsy on San Antonio's part. With the way Splitter has been playing and since Miami has started Miller the last two games, I thought it was inevitable that Ginobli would start.
@  RollingWave : (17 June 2013 - 02:57 AM) I must say that both team had some serious ballsy lineup changes this series, Ginobilli start? and dominate?
@  2016Champions : (16 June 2013 - 09:26 PM) According to Dr. Klapper, treatment for Parker's hamstring will only last one half. Lateral movement and jumping will be a problem.
@  2016Champions : (16 June 2013 - 04:56 AM) Parker said Pop was very angry with him for the constant nagging insisting he can play, Pop really didn't want Parker to play. Just goes to show Pop knows best.
@  RollingWave : (16 June 2013 - 04:28 AM) Parker says his hamstring is almost shot , that would probably doom the Spurs if he can't play at least 80%
@  2016Champions : (15 June 2013 - 12:38 AM) Miami is 6-0 in playoffs following losses (outscoring opponents by 20.7 PPG in those games). They've won 12 straight games following losses.
@  2016Champions : (14 June 2013 - 04:50 PM) The Heat are notoriously slow starters. Once they get going it's like a snowball effect, they get more dangerous as they go along.
@  2016Champions : (14 June 2013 - 04:49 PM) My heart says SA, but my mind says MIA
@  rocketrick : (14 June 2013 - 11:06 AM) Anybody else going to San Antone for Game 5??
@  RollingWave : (14 June 2013 - 10:15 AM) The Heat is doomed / the Spurs is doom , repeat until game 7
@  2016Champions : (14 June 2013 - 06:28 AM) Now that Wade's knee doesn't seem to be bothering him anymore, Spurs are in trouble.
@  rocketrick : (14 June 2013 - 06:26 AM) Mark Twain once was quoted--Reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated. Not sure that motivates the Heat but food for thought for whatever that is worth!
@  2016Champions : (14 June 2013 - 04:43 AM) What happened to Parker that second half? Hamstring caught up to him?
@  Ostrow : (14 June 2013 - 03:57 AM) Has Manu had any good playoff games?
@  RollingWave : (14 June 2013 - 03:50 AM) G4 was very interesting, both teams making big adjustments, but I think at the end of the day Wade's rejuvenation / dead cat bounce versus Manu 's continued suck is the difference
@  RollingWave : (13 June 2013 - 08:49 AM) @rocketrick lol good one. I honestly don't know what happens now, I was expecting Spurs to win G3 but not by THAT much
@  rocketrick : (12 June 2013 - 10:55 AM) I can't wait for Game 5 after the Heat burn the Spurs on Thursday night
@  RollingWave : (12 June 2013 - 06:52 AM) The amazing thing is this 2nd rounder and undrafted guy played like super stars while the best player ever an another sure fired HOF guy played like junk

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Are Elite PGs overrated?


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#1 timetodienow1234567

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:54 AM

List of Top PGs to not win in recent years

Nash

CP3

Westbrook

Irving

Kidd(won one as a role player)

Iverson

Stockton

Rose

D-Will

 

The list goes on and on. Some of these guys you can explain away, but I'm sensing a pattern here. PG is just not that important. You need a solid one and that's it.


Why so Serious? :D


#2 Dan G

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    Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:05 AM

    I actually agree with that which is the reason why you haven't seen me campaigning to sign CP3 with our cap space. Sure he will make us better but I don't think he can take us to the promise land. You really only need a point guard that isn't completely useless to win a championship. Having an above average one is a plus but not a deal breaker if you don't have one.



    #3 Steven

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      Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:05 AM

      LeBron won it last year and he is the PG.

      #4 Jason

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        Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:36 AM

        List of Top PGs to not win in recent years
        Nash
        CP3
        Westbrook
        Irving
        Kidd(won one as a role player)
        Iverson
        Stockton
        Rose
        D-Will

        The list goes on and on. Some of these guys you can explain away, but I'm sensing a pattern here. PG is just not that important. You need a solid one and that's it.


        Just depends on who else you have on your team. If Lin doesn't dramatically improve and become elite then we are probably more than just one star away from contending.

        #5 Ostrow

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          Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:09 AM

          You need an elite guard to win a championship.  Every team that has won one as far back as I can has had an elite guard except the Mavs (had Kidd he wasn't the same Kidd and Dirk who plays a lot like a guard) and probably the first Rockets team.  Every other team has one.



          #6 2016Champions

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          Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:20 AM

          James Harden is an elite guard. You don't need an elite pg, there have many championship teams that have won without an elite pg.


          Don't be too quick to assume you're right and the experts are wrong. 

           

          "A fool who recognizes his own ignorance is thereby in fact a wise man, but a fool who considers himself wise -- that is what one really calls a fool." ~Gautama Buddha


          #7 Sir Thursday

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          Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:43 AM

          Isn't it more that there are just so many top PGs around at the moment? Not all of them can win - there aren't enough championships to go around. In any case, listing some PGs and saying "none of these guys has won" doesn't prove that you don't need a good point guard running your team, just that having a good point guard on your team is not a guarantor of success. The two are not equivalent ;).

           

          ST



          #8 Futureinterest

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          Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:14 PM

          I think Harden is actually our PG a lot of the times... and he's elite right?  :P


           “Losing like this was definitely good for us.” - Some crazy guy with no D.


          #9 thenit

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            Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:51 PM

            I think Harden is actually our PG a lot of the times... and he's elite right?   :P

             

            He is not an elite PG, because his assist to turnover ratio is terrbile. He goes iso too often and doesn't distribute enough, which should be higher with his usage rate.



            #10 thejohnnygold

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            Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:20 PM

            For what it's worth, Jason Terry played incredibly well during that Mav's run--giving them the elite guard play they needed.  Also, JJ Barea was a nightmare for opposing defenses--somehow.

             

            Sir Thursday nailed it.  We have a ton of amazing point guards right now.  I call it the Michael Jordan Effect.  We are now in that time period where kids who grew up watching Michael (and Allen Iverson and then Kobe) all wanted to be their hero (Yes, I know he was a SG).  They all want to have the ball in their hands and lead their team to victory.  This will soon give way to the "Lebron-ites".  In 10 years we will see an influx of crazy good hybrid forwards that can do everything.  It will be awesome.



            #11 cjuice28

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:33 PM

              Its more important to have skilled bigs who can do multiple things, because there are fewer of them compared to PGs, and thus there tends to be more of a gap in "replacement value."



              #12 timetodienow1234567

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:43 PM

              For what it's worth, Jason Terry played incredibly well during that Mav's run--giving them the elite guard play they needed. Also, JJ Barea was a nightmare for opposing defenses--somehow.

              Sir Thursday nailed it. We have a ton of amazing point guards right now. I call it the Michael Jordan Effect. We are now in that time period where kids who grew up watching Michael (and Allen Iverson and then Kobe) all wanted to be their hero (Yes, I know he was a SG). They all want to have the ball in their hands and lead their team to victory. This will soon give way to the "Lebron-ites". In 10 years we will see an influx of crazy good hybrid forwards that can do everything. It will be awesome.


              I was talking about elite pgs like CP3 Rose Irving Westbrook Parker. I agree you need a good to great PG but not an elite one. But look at PFs.
              Duncan
              Gasol
              Garnett
              Bosh
              Sheed was close that year they won

              It's an interesting discussion to me.

              Why so Serious? :D


              #13 thejohnnygold

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:57 PM

              You're right.  I think what the pattern shows is you need balanced inside-out play.  If your team is only strong in one area the defense can shut it off.  When there is balance the defense must play honest, or pick their poison.  Further, teams with good big men tend to have better defenses...and that never hurts.

               

              Further, most of those big men played next to a solid front court mate:

               

              Duncan had Robinson (once, and then not so much after that...but they balanced it with two top level guards) (PG Parker/Ginoboli)

               

              Gasol had Bynum and Odom (PG Fisher/Kobe)

               

              Garnett had Perkins to form an excellent defensive wall in the paint (PG Rondo)

               

              Bosh has Lebron and Haslem (PG Chalmers/Cole...and Lebron again)

               

              Sheed had Ben Wallace and Mehmet Okur (PG Billups, Mike James, Chucky Atkins)



              #14 Sir Thursday

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:57 PM

              I was talking about elite pgs like CP3 Rose Irving Westbrook Parker. I agree you need a good to great PG but not an elite one. But look at PFs.
              Duncan
              Gasol
              Garnett
              Bosh
              Sheed was close that year they won

              It's an interesting discussion to me.

               

              Thing is, you can also construct a list of All-Star level PFs who haven't won anything, eg:

               

              Aldridge

              Randolph

              Gasol, M

              Lee

              Horford

              Griffin

              Anthony

              Stoudemire (In his prime rather than now)

               

              So it's not the case that having an All-Star calibre PF is enough to lead you to glory either.

               

              On the other hand, there are several very talented PGs who have won championships recently:

               

              Parker

              Billups

              Rondo

              Kidd (admittedly, this one is asterisk worthy given that he was a bit older at the time).

               

              The point is, for both positions you can construct lists of very good players at that position who have both won and not won championships. If you're only considering one of those two lists, then you can't really draw accurate conclusions about whether such players are necessary.

               

              ST



              #15 Freebird

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:06 PM

              Elite PGs aren't overrated - they just need the proper amount of talent around them to win anything.  Just like anyone else.  There tends to be a need for 2 elite players (or more) to be on a team for them to compete for the championship, but this isn't always the case (think LeBron in Cleveland).  An elite guard with an elite big is the duo of choice - thus all of our speculation on which big to get.  :)



              #16 timetodienow1234567

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:06 PM

              Thing is, you can also construct a list of All-Star level PFs who haven't won anything, eg:

               

              Aldridge

              Randolph

              Gasol, M

              Lee

              Horford

              Griffin

              Anthony

              Stoudemire (In his prime rather than now)

               

              So it's not the case that having an All-Star calibre PF is enough to lead you to glory either.

               

              On the other hand, there are several very talented PGs who have won championships recently:

               

              Parker

              Billups

              Rondo

              Kidd (admittedly, this one is asterisk worthy given that he was a bit older at the time).

               

              The point is, for both positions you can construct lists of very good players at that position who have both won and not won championships. If you're only considering one of those two lists, then you can't really draw accurate conclusions about whether such players are necessary.

               

              ST

               

              Parker in '07 wasn't considered elite. He was still building his way up there. I would put him on the borderline of the elite PGs at that time.

              Billups was not elite, borderline like Parker. Iverson/Arenas ruled the PG position back then.

              Rondo was nowhere near elite when he won a ring.

              Kidd deservedly has an asterisk.

               

              And those PFs you mentioned, only a few were what I would consider elite would be Amare, pre-knee injury. The rest are just good all-stars. There's a difference between these guys and Duncan/Dirk/KG just like there's a difference between Joe Johnson and Kobe/Wade.

               

              All I'm saying is that having an elite PG is not as big of a deal as having an elite C/PF/SF. So if it came down to having Dwight or CP3, I'd take Dwight every day of the year(assuming he's healthy). Because a superstar C is more valuable than a superstar PG.


              Why so Serious? :D


              #17 Sir Thursday

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:30 PM

              Well let me ask you this - are Duncan/Dirk/KG/Gasol considered 'elite' because they won a championship, or did they win a championship because they were 'elite'? Before winning his title, I'd argue that Dirk was considered to be in about the category that a lot of the PFs I'd listed are in now. Ditto Pau Gasol before he joined the Lakers. They were both known to be franchise-level talents in the same way that Stoudemire, Anthony or Aldridge are, but they didn't get the same 'he's a tier above the rest' respect that you're giving them now. Is this not a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts? PFs who win championships get the 'elite' tag foisted on them, thereby showing that you need an 'elite' PF to win? 

               

              ST



              #18 thejohnnygold

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:36 PM

              ^I second this



              #19 2016Champions

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              Posted 23 April 2013 - 11:00 PM

              I think guys like Camelo and Aldridge were never "elite" the way Duncan and Garnett were elite, championship or no championship. Even in Garnett's days with the Wolves he was clearly elite, and he didn't need a championship before that tag was foisted upon him. There are plenty of other examples, Barkley, Malone, Chris Paul.

               

              When you mention guys like Melo and Aldridge, I think what you're talking about are the players who are on the borderline of elite but general fans aren't sure which way to lean until a championship gives the nudge needed to get over that borderline, a good example of this is Dirk. 


              Don't be too quick to assume you're right and the experts are wrong. 

               

              "A fool who recognizes his own ignorance is thereby in fact a wise man, but a fool who considers himself wise -- that is what one really calls a fool." ~Gautama Buddha


              #20 Cooper

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                Posted 23 April 2013 - 11:56 PM

                I don't think it's about the position more so than the player, some elite players aren't really elite and some moreso than others. you could say the heat won the championship with an average pg but that's because they had bron wade and bosh, it's more about the collection of talent and how they play togheter rather than just getting exact positions. Infact lebron wade and bosh all play multiple positions.




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