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@  YaoMan : (23 October 2015 - 04:49 PM) Zach Lowe seems to think the Rox are the biggest threat to GSW: http://grantland.com...-16-nba-season/
@  cointurtlemoose : (23 October 2015 - 04:36 PM) Hey if yall want a good podcast to listen to, find the Dunc'd On Basketball Podcast on Itunes, Rahat just did a Rockets preview with the host.
@  majik19 : (13 October 2015 - 09:09 PM) Apparently we claimed Arsalan Kazemi off waivers from the Hawks today... yet another undersized (6'7") power forward for Morey's cupboard.
@  Mario Peña : (10 October 2015 - 01:12 PM) If your part if the Red94 Fantasy Basketball League check the thread to vote for the date and time for the draft event. Thanks y'all!
@  jorgeaam : (07 October 2015 - 08:47 PM) Guys we need 1 more owner for the Red94 fantasy league, if interested please comment on the post in the fantasy basketball thread
@  slick shoes : (07 October 2015 - 06:50 PM) Kobe ranked one spot higher than Ariza? Is this based on legacy or...??
@  slick shoes : (07 October 2015 - 04:13 PM) It was hard to keep up with both the Astros and Rockets at the same time. Should be interesting on Thursday with the Texans and Astros on simultaneously.
@  Mario Peña : (07 October 2015 - 04:09 PM) It was fun to have the Rockets on last night! Right now I'm watching the Celtics versus Milan and Alessandro Gentile is impressive.
@  jorgeaam : (06 October 2015 - 07:47 PM) Well, thinking twice about it, I'd rather have him score less and have the team as a whole do better. Lawson should take a lot of his load off
@  jorgeaam : (06 October 2015 - 07:47 PM) Loving that, hope he hits 30 PPG this year
@  thejohnnygold : (06 October 2015 - 06:15 PM) Someone is feeling confident :) : LINK
@  jorgeaam : (06 October 2015 - 05:54 PM) 10 Teams done, will need 2 more
@  Mario Peña : (06 October 2015 - 02:35 PM) Alright guys, if anyone is interested in joining the Red94 fantasy basketball league we could use one more player to get us to 10 teams (or three to get us to 12 teams). Just check the thread in the Fantasy Basketball forum. Thanks!
@  thejohnnygold : (05 October 2015 - 06:23 PM) I use leaguepass here in Austin with no problems...
@  skip 2 my lou : (05 October 2015 - 03:14 PM) Hey fellas, I'm a rocket fan but I live in the heart of Dallas. Does anybody know if I buy NBA Leaguepass if it's too close to be subject to blackouts?
@  Losthief : (02 October 2015 - 02:24 AM) tks jg
@  thejohnnygold : (29 September 2015 - 05:16 AM) FYI, it was media day today. Interviews are up at NBA.com
@  slick shoes : (23 September 2015 - 06:37 PM) kind of late in the day but NBATV is broadcasting classis Rockets games all day today.
@  SadLakerFan : (16 September 2015 - 04:37 AM) Man, as a Laker fan, I'm learning how little you care about the off season when your team sucks. Anyway, a quick moment to remember Moses. Still remember watching the 81 team as a kid - losing record, NBA Finals. I would have cried w/joy if they could have beaten the Celtics.
@  jorgeaam : (15 September 2015 - 08:30 PM) http://bleacherrepor...ist-after-crash

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Are we going after the "Hot Girl" or the kind of girl you marry?

Dwight Bynum Center Choice

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#1 thejohnnygold

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 05:50 AM

So, I thought I'd throw this out as a both subjective, and objective, view of the "need" for a center to win an NBA championship. We all want a great center so badly. However, does it need to be Dwight or Andrew at all?

This is a list of the past NBA champions: http://en.wikipedia....f_NBA_champions

Going back to 1989 I count 3 Star Centers that won a championship: Olajuwon, Shaq, and David Robinson. Tim Duncan? Eh, yeah he's a center, but I am not counting him...he always plays the 4 alongside another big man. Now, Bynum has two rings, but I am not sure how much credit to give him for those. His stats aren't mind-blowing for those playoff runs. (I am taking into account playing alongisde Kobe)....After all that, I see a trend of strong, defensive-oriented centers. The score, by my count is 9-15 (stars (including Bynum)vs. other centers). That is 38%.

My point is not to say that those star types of centers are not worth it. Except for David Robinson, they all have multiple rings. Enough said.

But the evidence also suggests that a solid, defensive center alongside a strong, complete team is equally effective.

I have high hopes for obtaining Omer Asik and in drafting a strong center in 2013. I like the looks of the rest of our very young team (pending whatever we get for K-mart) and it would pain me to trade that possible future for Dwight.

Bottom line, even if DH puts on our uniform I don't think my heart will ever truly root for him. And, as a life-long rockets fan, that means a lot. Any championships we got would probably feel hollow. As for Bynum, I am still not sure.....

Do I want a center? YES! What kind and at what cost are what's running through my mind right now.
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#2 rockets best fan

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 07:16 AM

thejohnnygold:
there is no such thing as hollow championships. they are like unicorns heard about them, but never seen one. as for my choice of girl lets go for the hot girl (mamma will never know). as for centers in the nba who have won championships. Im not saying you have to have a top center to get to the championship, but it sure makes it easier
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you can only warn a man that the bridge is out.....if he keeps driving he's on his own B)


#3 thejohnnygold

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 03:29 PM

Well, I would argue that the stats say otherwise. As for unicorns, I rode two in the mid-90's with the rockets....and it was awesome. Want that feeling again, but not with someone (ie Dwight) I don't care about. Plus, I agree with a lot of what other posters are saying about his game relying on athleticism and not much else....his time as a dominant force in this league will end sooner than later.

As far as the "hot chick" metaphor goes....I'm looking for a long-term relationship...like what San Antonio has done the last 12-13 years.
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#4 sircharles

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 03:33 PM

Bynum's performance can't always be measured in stats, his job as a big body center is to get in the way and to protect the paint which he is very good at doing.

If we get asik someone needs to buy him some dumbbells for sure
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#5 Mario Peña

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:02 PM

First of all, I have to say that when I saw the dreaded hot girl sports analogy I had reservations about the topic but was pleasantly surprised to see a well thought out argument.

I think the strictly framed argument you present is true in a vaccum but the truth is much more complicated. Let me start off by saying that winning the The Finals is first and foremost a game of matchups and adjustments. In that setting a strict interpretation of the 5 and statistics are probably secondary. I would argue that having a frontline player or players that can effect the game either offensively and/or defensively in a way that forces your opponent to make adjustments is what the Rockets need. By this standard 14 of the last 24 Finals winners qualify by having a game changing big (or bigs) from Laimbeer/Sally to the Novitzki/Chandler combination. Both Howard and Bynum effect the game in a manner in which opponents must make adjustments that can overwhelm them or cancel any advantage they might have had.


Obviously Jordan is an anomaly so if you remove those 6 years then one could argue 14 of 18 Finals champions had frontline players that effected the game and ultimately the series.
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How sweet it is!

#6 rockets best fan

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:22 PM

Well, I would argue that the stats say otherwise. As for unicorns, I rode two in the mid-90's with the rockets....and it was awesome. Want that feeling again, but not with someone (ie Dwight) I don't care about. Plus, I agree with a lot of what other posters are saying about his game relying on athleticism and not much else....his time as a dominant force in this league will end sooner than later.

As far as the "hot chick" metaphor goes....I'm looking for a long-term relationship...like what San Antonio has done the last 12-13 years.

although all doninant centers don't win championships I don't think it is as much on them as the GM their under. I don't care how good 1 player is if they don't put other necessary pieces around him he won't win big. basketball is a team sport period. however the only point i'm making is in my opion the center position can make controlng the flow of the game easier if you have the right player there..........as for the rockets 2 championships there was nothing hollow about them. they were earned by a group of players who put in real work everyday to make it happen, and were led by that dominant center type player I am talking about. nothing unicornish about that. as for howard I will agree his game does rely on athleticism, but trust me he still has plenty of star caliber years left. he is simply the biggest bully on the block right now. as for the hot chick thing sometimes it can start out as a spark and end up an uncontroled blaze.if we get dwight she might change her mind, you know how women are
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you can only warn a man that the bridge is out.....if he keeps driving he's on his own B)


#7 Cooper

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    Posted 21 July 2012 - 05:04 PM

    Look at this years finals neither team had a good center. Heat usally played bosh at the 5 and okc had Perkins (one of the most overrated players in the league) and collision but what they had was Durant/lebron Westbrook/wade two dominant players whatever position your going to need two dominant players on your team to win anything or one with an extremely deep team of good role players that fit together. It's not the center that is necessary its great players anywher but if you have a dominant center (Howard) thats a big step in te right direction.
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    #8 JetToDream

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      Posted 21 July 2012 - 05:17 PM

      The more pressing question is: How many very good to great teams have the Rockets fielded without a dominant post player?
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      #9 Jeby

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        Posted 21 July 2012 - 05:29 PM

        But the evidence also suggests that a solid, defensive center alongside a strong, complete team is equally effective.

        Funny you didn't mention Bill Russell because this model is exactly how the Celtics won 11 championships with him.
        Also, @feelingsupersonic, I wouldn't throw out ALL of the Jordan championships, because of Dennis Rodman (despite the fact he was a PF). Being able to guard every person on the floor while snatching 15+ rebounds is basically what a good defensive center should bring to the table.
        To bring the conversation back around to Howard and Asik, Howard puts you in championship contention right away. Asik has potential to be a Rodman-esque rebounding force.
        Which means that to win a championship with Asik, Jeremy Lin will need to grow into Isaiah Thomas or Jeremy Lamb will need to evolve into MJ. That ain't happnin.
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        #10 Mario Peña

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        Posted 21 July 2012 - 05:39 PM

        Sure Jeby you can include some of the Bulls teams in my numbers to make my argument even better but even without the Bulls the 14 out of 18 champions ratio makes my argument pretty compelling.
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        How sweet it is!

        #11 Jeby

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          Posted 21 July 2012 - 05:48 PM

          Don't you like how I can agree with you even while almost sounding like I'm disagreeing with you? Treasure the moment.
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          #12 ale11

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          Posted 21 July 2012 - 06:21 PM

          It depends on what you call a dominant center. For example, Ben Wallace never was a superstar, but he sure as hell was dominant and got the ring in 2004. And Detroit didn't have a superstar PF paired with Wallace, actually, they didn't have any superstar, and they won the ring. Basketball is really about teamwork. Miami got the ring this year because it was a better team than OKC (not necessary to break down all the little reasons or the obvious fact that LeBron played the way everyone expected from him). You need guys who do whatever it takes, Howard will get us to the playoffs but....is he going to do whatever it takes in the benefit of the team or just for his own benefit?
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          #13 Jeby

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            Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:19 PM

            That's a good point about Howard. Even though he makes the team a contender this year on paper, in reality, you can rule out him winning the championship with ANY team this year because he has his heart set on free agency. It's hard to imagine any player being enough of a d*** to walk away right after winning a title, but...what am I saying. This is Dwight Howard we're talking about.
            And about Wallace not being paired with a superstar PF...I sort of disagree. Rasheed was as talented as any PF in the NBA when he had it turned on. He just didn't usually care. In the two months that he actually gave a crap, he won a championship.
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            #14 thejohnnygold

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            Posted 22 July 2012 - 06:04 PM

            Good thoughts all around. I agreee with the stat-skewing around Jordan's six rings, but for the sake of this conversation I ignored it because we are focused on the center position needing to be a star. I rather like the idea of pursuing a defensive-oriented center. Rebounding, altering/blocking shots, and forcing teams to make jumpers instead of lay-ups is huge.

            As mentioned, the likes of Laimbeer, Tyson Chandler, and Ben Wallace greatly impacted their teams and helped win championships in ways that points and other offensive stats don't show. I'm not saying anything you all don't already know....

            I am more excited about moving forward with our youth this year, seeing who can play, and remembering that the odds are both Dwight and Bynum are FA's next year. No need to overpay now. Plus, Serge Ibaka is a FA that year as well. Ibaka and Bynum? Yes, please.
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            #15 ale11

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            Posted 23 July 2012 - 02:46 AM

            @Jeby

            You have some point, Rasheed cared enough to pull it off, but it was unexpected, and that's the opposite of a star...


            @thejohnnygold

            Of course, I will love that, let's be honest, everyone will. But I don't think it's possible that both Bynum and Ibaka give up the extra money. OKC will trade Harden to get that extension to Ibaka, and Bynum will 95% surely re-sign with LA if not traded before the deadline, and LA will definetely trade Gasol if that means they can re-sign Bynum and save some tax money.
            I truly believe that Howard would prefer to play with Lin, Lamb, Parsons and Motiejunas instead of Nelson, Richardson, Turkoglu and Davis, but....you never know what to expect from him.
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            #16 Sir Thursday

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            Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:10 AM

            We've seen the following types of players win championships over the past twenty years:

            - Dominant shooting guards (Jordan, Kobe, Wade)
            - Dominant small forwards (Pierce, LeBron)
            - Dominant power forwards (Nowitzki, Duncan)
            - Dominant centres (Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq)

            There is no single position that you need to win a title. The only requirement is that you have players who are great at their position. IMO analysis based on positional composition of title contenders is misleading. Due to the dynastic nature of the NBA, there is only a very small group of players who can be said to have 'lead' their team to a championship, and as a result our sample size is far too small to draw any meaningful conclusions.

            ST
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            #17 Mario Peña

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            Posted 23 July 2012 - 02:07 PM

            First of all, I have to say that when I saw the dreaded hot girl sports analogy I had reservations about the topic but was pleasantly surprised to see a well thought out argument.

            I think the strictly framed argument you present is true in a vaccum but the truth is much more complicated. Let me start off by saying that winning the The Finals is first and foremost a game of matchups and adjustments. In that setting a strict interpretation of the 5 and statistics are probably secondary. I would argue that having a frontline player or players that can effect the game either offensively and/or defensively in a way that forces your opponent to make adjustments is what the Rockets need. By this standard 14 of the last 24 Finals winners qualify by having a game changing big (or bigs) from Laimbeer/Sally to the Novitzki/Chandler combination. Both Howard and Bynum effect the game in a manner in which opponents must make adjustments that can overwhelm them or cancel any advantage they might have had.


            Obviously Jordan is an anomaly so if you remove those 6 years then one could argue 14 of 18 Finals champions had frontline players that effected the game and ultimately the series.


            My argument is definitely not for a single position and is more about how a dominant frontline player or players effect matchups by forcing adjustments or negating an advantage.
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            How sweet it is!

            #18 thejohnnygold

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            Posted 23 July 2012 - 05:55 PM

            We've seen the following types of players win championships over the past twenty years:

            - Dominant shooting guards (Jordan, Kobe, Wade)
            - Dominant small forwards (Pierce, LeBron)
            - Dominant power forwards (Nowitzki, Duncan)
            - Dominant centres (Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq)

            There is no single position that you need to win a title. The only requirement is that you have players who are great at their position. IMO analysis based on positional composition of title contenders is misleading. Due to the dynastic nature of the NBA, there is only a very small group of players who can be said to have 'lead' their team to a championship, and as a result our sample size is far too small to draw any meaningful conclusions.

            ST


            Very true. It's interesting to note I only count 3 overall #1 draft picks (Shaq, Robinson, and Duncan); although, nearly all the rest are top 5 guys....I think only Dirk and Kobe were later in the first round and had they been older, with more experience and a better resume, they probably would have been top 5. Still, the odds are against drafting a stud that will ultimately garner a championship.

            I don't know, the more we dissect everything the more I realize I have no idea.

            As for waiting for next year's free agents...

            I'm not so sure that OKC jettisons Harden over Ibaka. It's a coin flip in my estimation. They each bring a lot to the table. Harden
            is basically Pippen 2.0....he just needs a little more seasoning. Ibaka I can't quite compare--especially if he continues to improve offensively.
            If I was OKC I'd pay them both and the luxury tax. Package them all up as the "fantastic four" and whore them out to anyone with advertising/marketing $$$$$.
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            #19 ale11

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            Posted 23 July 2012 - 09:39 PM

            OKC already has two excellent scorers, and even though Harden is a better ball-handler than both of them, Sefolosha is more necessary for the defense he brings to the table against the opponent's top player (I like what he did with Lebron and Wade, he handled it better than most the league had).

            In my opinion, OKC's lineup should be Westbrook-Sefolosha-Durant-Ibaka-a center who can score instead of Perkins....it has been said that Harden could be traded, maybe they are looking a better center.

            Anyway, getting back to the subject, having a dominant center doesn't guarantee a ring, but it gets you closer to contention (unless he is injury-prone like Yao, Bogut or Oden). Anywhere from there, probably would be in the right direction. Morey could surround him with competent teammates, but if we really want to contend, we need another dominant player, and I think that to get the most out of Howard (or Bynum), we need a dominant player at the PG.
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            #20 blakecouey

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              Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:57 PM

              OKC already has two excellent scorers, and even though Harden is a better ball-handler than both of them, Sefolosha is more necessary for the defense he brings to the table against the opponent's top player (I like what he did with Lebron and Wade, he handled it better than most the league had).

              In my opinion, OKC's lineup should be Westbrook-Sefolosha-Durant-Ibaka-a center who can score instead of Perkins....it has been said that Harden could be traded, maybe they are looking a better center.

              Anyway, getting back to the subject, having a dominant center doesn't guarantee a ring, but it gets you closer to contention (unless he is injury-prone like Yao, Bogut or Oden). Anywhere from there, probably would be in the right direction. Morey could surround him with competent teammates, but if we really want to contend, we need another dominant player, and I think that to get the most out of Howard (or Bynum), we need a dominant player at the PG.

              I dont think we're going to ditch the Lin plan anytime soon, unless he falls flat on his face. We have a better shot at adding a big time SG at this point, not that any are available, but because we need depth there.
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