91 replies to this topic

[blakecouey]

There have been a lot of posts lately(and prior to the draft) questioning Morey's drafting ability. Earlier today I was reading such a post from RedStewie and several other members discussing this topic, and I wanted to put my two cents into the argument. My first post will be quite long, as I am quoting RedStewie and then giving my argument.

Please put all the related comments here instead of reverting back to threads where it is off topic. Thanks.

No, i brought it up cos he said Morey was more skilled at drafting than trading, and I'm yet to see any proof. Its not my fault we r permanently stuck at 14.
But I will play your all star game, just for fun cos people are over-valuing so called drafting skills of Morey. Im just going to do 2007 to 2009, cos 2010 is ony a 2 year gap and not enough time. So in the past 2 years
All Stars- Marc Gasol @ 48 (2007), Roy Hibbert @ 17 (2008),

Not All star but solid starters- sergei ibaka, javal mcgee, Deandre jordan, Nicolas batum, george hill, mario chalmers, ramon sessions, Jrue Holiday, Ty Lawson, Jeff teague,

There are also other solid rotational players like splitter, dejuan blair etc that i chose to ignore just cos.

If Morey's drafting skills was so great, im sure he could have picked any of these.

At best, his drafting skills are average too. Thats all im saying for the guy claiming he had great drafting skills. Morey has eye for talent, just as much as Stewie wonder has eyes for beautiful women.

Here's my evaluation.

Ill take the same parameters as RedStewie: Drafts 2007-2008-2009 picks later that 14.
2007- Total of 46 picks after #14.
Rockets Picks- #26(Aaron Brooks),#31(Carl Landry)(Selected by Seattle, rights traded to Houston), and #54(Brad Newley)
2008- Total of 46 picks after #14.
Rockets Picks-#25(Nicolas Batum)(traded to Portland for #28 and #33), #28(Donte Greene), #33(Joey Dorsey), and #54(Maarty Luenen)
2009- Total of 46 picks after #14.
Rockets Picks-#32(Jermaine Taylor)(selected by Washington for cash), #34(Sergio Llull)(selected by Denver for cash), #44(Chase Budinger)(selected by Detroit for cash), and #53(Nando de Colo)(traded to Spurs)

I'd have to say Budinger, Landry, and Brooks could both be added to the solid rotational players list by the way. I won't mention Batum as he was picked for Portland. Newley, Llull, and Luenen have all been in Euro, so we can't properly evaluate their NBA abilities.

Anyways, you are right that Morey hadn't picked a solid starter, all-star, or superstar(between 07-09).

My argument comes in that you hand selected 2 all-stars and 9 "solid starters" out of 132 potential picks. That works to 8%. Furthermore, no two of those players were picked by the same GM. Only two were picked by the same team-Lawson and Chalmers(by different GM's though).

From this you can conclude that only 8% of the GM's in this league are truly better at drafting than Morey. This of course is rough, as some of the unmentioned players may someday become all-stars, and let's not forget we aren't discussing picks from '10, '11, and '12.

[Jeby]

I'm the 'above commenter.' The picks I was thinking of were Budinger and Parsons. Two years in a row, Morey found second rounders who ended up being starters by the end of the season. That's exceptionally rare.

[Sir Thursday]

Here's my breakdown, which includes the players Morey could have picked but didn't:


2007:
Rockets select: Aaron Brooks (26th), Carl Landry (31st)
Notable players selected later: Aaron Afflalo (27th), Tiago Splitter (28th), Glen Davis (35th), Marc Gasol (48th)

Aaron Brooks and Carl Landry were great selections. It was those picks that allowed us to make that playoff run in 2008 and they complemented our team really well at the time. Marc Gasol is the only player taken later that would have improved us in hindsight, I think - the others are good, but I don't think they were better than what we got at the time, especially if you include what we managed to trade those guys for.

My grade: A-

2008:
Rockets trade rights to Nicolas Batum (25th) for Donté Greene (28th) and Joey Dorsey (33rd). Also select Maarty Leunen (55th).
Notable players selected later: George Hill (26th), Nikola Pekovic (31st), Mario Chalmers (34th), DeAndre Jordan (35th), Omer Asik (36th), Luc Mbah a Moute (37th), Goran Dragic (45th)

This draft didn't go very well at all. There aren't any superstars drafted later, but the ones I've highlighted (or indeed Batum himself) all would have been better than who the Rockets picked. Especially Pekovic, I reckon he's probably the best of the lot there). We did flip Greene for Ron Artest, which was a decent move, but Joey Dorsey never turned out. Doesn't appear to have been anyone left by the time we got to 55 - there's noone of note selected after Leunen that would have been any good.

My grade: C-


2009:
Rockets select: Jermaine Taylor (32nd), Sergio Llull (34th), Chase Budinger (44th)
Notable players selected later: DeJuan Blair (37th), Jodie Meeks (41st), Marcus Thornton (43rd), Danny Green (46th), Patty Mills (55th)

Jermaine Taylor didn't work out in the end, unfortunately. We can't really judge Llull until he comes over. At the moment Blair and Thornton look like the best players we could have had instead, but I'm prepared to withhold judgement on that until we see Llull in action over here. Budinger was an absolute steal. Great value at that stage in the draft. Green and Mills are decent players, but I would rate Budinger about equal or better than them. So one excellent pick and one that the jury is still out on.

My grade: B

2010:
Rockets select: Patrick Patterson (14th)
Notable players selected later: Eric Bledsoe (18th), Avery Bradley (19th), Jordan Crawford (27th), Landry Fields (39th)

Pretty slim pickings among those picks that were later than ours in this round. Avery Bradley is the only player there I would even consider trading Patterson for (well, perhaps Bledsoe now that we need a point guard). I think we took the best player available here. Looking forward to seeing improvement from him next year (I think one thing the shortened season really did was impacted the development of quite a lot of players, and that coupled with his pre-season surgery debacle contributed to his subpar showing last season).

My grade: A

I'm going to skip 2011 because I feel we haven't had enough time to evaluate the players taken in it yet. Early signs would indicate that Parsons was a steal, but we haven't really seen enough of Morris or Motiejunas to make judgement yet.


So, we've got one A, one A-, one B and a C-. Distribution seems pretty skewed towards good grades from where I'm sitting. There has only been one All-Star we could have drafted but didn't, and in that draft the players we did pick came pretty good anyway. We've been able to find useful players in every draft except 2008 under Morey's leadership, despite never picking in the high lottery. That's why Morey is considered a good drafter.

[Jeby]

Correction, there was a year between those picks.

[pharmag]

That is a fair point RedStewie except you failed to take context into consideration. You didn't include 2010-present and that makes sense because it's hard to judge on at most, 2 years of playing. However, the two all-stars you mentioned are from morey's first two years and of the 2 you mentioned, only one was actually picked after the Rockets first of the respective draft (gasol).

Furthermore, at the time those two guys were drafted, morey was not yet looking for a replacement center for Yao (although I would somewhat agree if you argued they should have been). Instead he was trying to assemble a cast around the two all-star players he inherited. In fact, I could argue that his knack for assembling that cast of players has had a direct impact on our current predicament of mediocrity because xthe guys he has gathered are too good to suck but not good enough to make the playoffs. He has shown the ability to make solid picks with the spots he is given. Other than not getting Zeller, the only other complaint about this draft was that no trades happened. Given the guys he has managed to find in late 1st and early second rounds, I think it's safe to say he is a good drafter. If he is going to sick around, I personally would like to see les finally give him the ok to blow this wreck of a team up and land a couple top draft picks.

[blakecouey]

I brought up those facts because the poster above me- not you Blake, mentioned something about morey's drafting skills. Furthermore, whenever the shortcomings of Morey are brought up, people are quick to compliment him on his drafting prowess.
It seems to me he just wants to make a lot of deals and noise during draft day so it looks like great genius at work.

The only player i would give him credit for is Aaron Brooks which is actually saying a lot- his undersized butt is about to be gone from the league soon. But i loved me some Aaron.

He is an ok drafter. If he was so great at drafting like many are quick to point out, he should have unearthed one of those all stars or solid starters. He is yet to pull a san antonio, okc, Golden state or Lakers.
When he can do that during the draft, i can confirm him as a good drafter.
Just like once he makes a great trade- i can confirm him as a good gm.
Other than that, all his moves are average and horizontal

I understand why the topic was brought up, and Im thankful for it. This is a good topic to discuss with a lot of information available and a lot of room for opinions.
I don't think he is the best drafter, but he has made some good picks that weren't involved in the 07-09 draft years. As well as passing on several players that turned out to be busts as well(if you can consider late firsts busts).
There are also teams that draft much worse than Morey, have to take the good with the bad.

I'm still about a day from starting a petition for firing Morey, lol.

[blakecouey]

Also he didn't draft Budinger. Detroit drafted Budinger and then traded him to us. And just cos they r starters on a terrible team doesn't make them good picks.

The trade was draft rights for cash considerations on draft day. That should count as Houston's pick as they likely told Detroit who they wanted with the selection.

[pharmag]

Also he didn't draft Budinger. Detroit drafted Budinger and then traded him to us. And just cos they r starters on a terrible team doesn't make them good picks.

No it inherently doesn't, but the 2nd rounder Budinger was turned into the 18th pick in this draft? That is good drafting if you are able to get a guy in the 2nd round that someone will later give you a first round pick for.

[pharmag]

@ Pharmag, the original question which started the discussion was to list solid starters and all stars picked after #14, so thats why i made the list for Jeby.
The wreck is being blown up as we speak, once we get rid of martin and scola, the remaining players will be overachieving if they r #12 and up on the standings.

Fair enough, but context is still key in evaluating his drafting abilities. As sir Thursday showed, in the three years you are considering, the highest pick the rockets had was 25. They were a borderline contender building around two "all-stars.". You can't get mad at morey for drafting need in those years and missing on some solid centers (both the all-stars you mentioned as well as 3 of the solid starters), and then turn around and get mad at drafting best available this year instead of drafting Zeller for need (you can argue Zeller was best available but many of the scouting groups said white and jones were top 10 talents if not for a couple concerns).

[pharmag]

Lol oh really is that how it works. Just like giving him props for drafting Greene which eventually turned into Artest who eventually shafted us.
Nah, i judge Budinger on his skills and stats. Not on his two year return in another player whom we r yet to see play a full nba season

My point is what were you expecting from a 2nd rounder. It was a solid selection and it was bud's skills and stats that netted the 1st round pick. Greene was traded on potential as he had yet to set foot on an NBA court. He also was not the only thing rockets gave up for artest

[blakecouey]

The original question is this "is Morey a great drafter" or does he have "great drafting skills and insights" before we get carried away.

First I will start by saying, its not my fault we always have a terrible pick year after year. Management bears that blame for not deciding to sink or swim, rather floating every year and ending up with average picks.

However i give Morey a C period as a drafter. An A would have meant he drafted a superstar or perennial all star. A B would have meant he drafted a solid starter and occasional all star. He has done none of those, hence he's not good or great. He's average just like our picks and our record year after year.

I've gotta say we have decided to sink or swim the past few years. We chose to swim, we did what we could to make our team better, to no avail. It may have resulted in us floating, but we tried to swim...

[Sir Thursday]

The original question is this "is Morey a great drafter" or does he have "great drafting skills and insights" before we get carried away.

First I will start by saying, its not my fault we always have a terrible pick year after year. Management bears that blame for not deciding to sink or swim, rather floating every year and ending up with average picks.

However i give Morey a C period as a drafter. An A would have meant he drafted a superstar or perennial all star. A B would have meant he drafted a solid starter and occasional all star. He has done none of those, hence he's not good or great. He's average just like our picks and our record year after year.

What?! This is a completely unreasonable standard to hold any GM to. Do the Clippers get an A for drafting Blake Griffin? No, that was an obvious pick anyone could have made and shows absolutely nothing about their drafting skills. Any attempt to judge someone's drafting prowess without taking into account the players that were available at the spots they drafted is idiotic. Your draft is an A if you picked the best player available at your pick. That is the only rational and logical way to grade anyone's draft.

ST

[pharmag]

Well first off I wasn't arguing he was a great drafter so sorry for the confusion. I was arguing a good drafter with the premise being that he has drafted solid contributors despite where he has spent the last few years drafting. Fact of the matter is, where he drafts your odds aren't great and with the exception of 2008, he has gotten guys that were solid contributors more often than not. There are still a few that we haven't had enough time to evaluate Due to being in Europe or just drafted last year. It is for that reason that I would like to see what he would actually manage to do if he was allowed to let the team exit this purgatory that les has condemned them too. He may over think and fall flat or he may fiinally have the opportunity to fdragt some guys that a team can be built around.

[pharmag]

What?! This is a completely unreasonable standard to hold any GM to. Do the Clippers get an A for drafting Blake Griffin? No, that was an obvious pick anyone could have made and shows absolutely nothing about their drafting skills. Any attempt to judge someone's drafting prowess without taking into account the players that were available at the spots they drafted is idiotic. Your draft is an A if you picked the best player available at your pick. That is the only rational and logical way to grade anyone's draft.

ST

Exactly! How many superstars or perennial all stars are drafted outside the top 8-10. How many solid starters are drafted outside the top 15-20? In morey's 5 drafts he has had 11 picks at 20 or higher, 5 from 10-20 (3 of which came this year) and 0 in top 10.