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@  thejohnnygold : (28 June 2017 - 10:52 PM) Yup. Better not get attached to anyone not named Harden...
@  rocketrick : (28 June 2017 - 09:16 PM) Summer League will be more important than ever for the Rockets now that they have to replace like half their roster!
@  rocketrick : (28 June 2017 - 04:23 PM) Let's Welcome Chris Paul to H-town!!
@  slick shoes : (21 June 2017 - 04:28 PM) Morey is locked in for four more years. Glad to have some stability at the helm after everything we've seen the last couple of weeks.
@  slick shoes : (16 June 2017 - 04:31 PM) It's a shame we don't have a first rounder this year. I did notice that the W's and the Cavs have 0 picks this year (not that they need them).
@  thejohnnygold : (16 June 2017 - 03:57 PM) Whoever picks him is going to be a happy camper
@  slick shoes : (16 June 2017 - 02:00 PM) De'Aaron Fox giving Bev a shout at the end of this piece
http://www.espn.com/...var-ball-chorus
@  slick shoes : (22 May 2017 - 05:25 PM) I can't decide if I want them to draft Ball or not.
@  thejohnnygold : (21 May 2017 - 02:50 PM) Don't worry...they'll find a way to screw it up.
@  slick shoes : (17 May 2017 - 03:52 PM) Is anyone else annoyed that the league reached out and helped the Lakers secure a top 3 pick to keep them from long term ruin?
@  Mario Peña : (13 May 2017 - 11:56 AM) It would appear James will take games off next year which is probably a good thing. Perhaps we will see some evolution from emphasis on regular season to being playoff ready both from a physical as well as a strategy standpoint.
@  rocketrick : (12 May 2017 - 05:26 AM) I personally will be rooting for the Spurs in their next matchup with Golden State in the Western Conference Finals
@  rocketrick : (12 May 2017 - 05:26 AM) Congratulations to the Spurs and Coach Pop. They completely destroyed the Rockets last night (understatement of the year)
@  DenverRocket : (12 May 2017 - 02:55 AM) Very disappointing end to an otherwise great season.
@  DenverRocket : (12 May 2017 - 01:10 AM) Stunningly bad. Out played, out coached and no one is stepping up :-(
@  slick shoes : (12 May 2017 - 01:07 AM) Well, it can't get any worse right?
@  slick shoes : (12 May 2017 - 12:35 AM) It's like Dekker has been waiting to play or something.
@  08huangj : (11 May 2017 - 12:08 PM) It is utterly baffling to me why MDA is not utilizing Dekker and Harrell. These two were integral to our dominant regular season bench!
@  DenverRocket : (10 May 2017 - 03:18 AM) Everything the TNT analysts said, I was screaming during OT. MDA blamed it on fatigue - no kidding sherlock, when you only use a 7 player rotation!
@  DenverRocket : (10 May 2017 - 03:17 AM) Sorely disappointed with that. Huge missed opportunity. I thought McHale was coaching again in overtime!

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Rockets should trade James Harden


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#21 txtdo1411

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 09:13 PM

They may get along off the court.  It's pretty clear that on the court something is wrong.  I am laying that directly on Harden's head.  Maybe that's not fair.  I'd love to be wrong.  I'd love for us to get a new coach, a new system, and a re-invigorated team that plays their hearts out on both ends of the floor.

 

We did that last year.  So, what's changed?  What happened?  Where did it go and how do they get it back?

 

That is the million dollar question. In my opinion, I think Harden and the team as a whole came in over-confident that they could just show up, and win games since they brought (mostly) the whole team that just made it to the WCF. I think the whole team is frustrated, and I think it mostly has to do with losing. Nobody likes to lose, and when you start losing it seems to spiral, because that is when the finger pointing begins. I do believe a lot of it has to do with Harden and his attitude changing once he got paid and got the fame, but I don't think it is something that can't change. That is why I said in another thread that I want to miss the playoffs, or suffer a humiliating defeat in the first round to shake things up. I think James needs to taste some failure to knock him off his high horse. This year is lost, but it does not mean we have to scrap everything Morey has been building for the last 5+ years.

 

If the recent trend in the NBA has taught us anything, it's that you need two, preferably three, all-stars to win anything. I don't want to be so quick to give up the only one we currently have on the roster. Next year is the year that will make or break Harden's career. Does he take this season, and use it as a learning experience, or does he brush it off as not being his fault and blaming the coaches? That is the question I want to know the answer to, before shipping him out of here. If he has the same attitude next season, then yes, it would probably be best for the team to trade him.  


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#22 thejohnnygold

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 10:34 PM

That is the million dollar question. In my opinion, I think Harden and the team as a whole came in over-confident that they could just show up, and win games since they brought (mostly) the whole team that just made it to the WCF. I think the whole team is frustrated, and I think it mostly has to do with losing. Nobody likes to lose, and when you start losing it seems to spiral, because that is when the finger pointing begins. I do believe a lot of it has to do with Harden and his attitude changing once he got paid and got the fame, but I don't think it is something that can't change. That is why I said in another thread that I want to miss the playoffs, or suffer a humiliating defeat in the first round to shake things up. I think James needs to taste some failure to knock him off his high horse. This year is lost, but it does not mean we have to scrap everything Morey has been building for the last 5+ years.

 

If the recent trend in the NBA has taught us anything, it's that you need two, preferably three, all-stars to win anything. I don't want to be so quick to give up the only one we currently have on the roster. Next year is the year that will make or break Harden's career. Does he take this season, and use it as a learning experience, or does he brush it off as not being his fault and blaming the coaches? That is the question I want to know the answer to, before shipping him out of here. If he has the same attitude next season, then yes, it would probably be best for the team to trade him.  

 

I would like to think having a losing record heading into the All-Star Break and being the punch line of a joke when it comes to his defense would be enough, but maybe he needs more.

 

I just saw a headline pointing out that, including today's trade, Stan Van Gundy only has 2 players remaining from the team he inherited just two years ago.  In essence, it has been just over 1 1/2 seasons and the only guys left are Drummond and KCP.  In all fairness, they didn't have a guy like Harden.  Still, I really like the commitment to make the necessary changes and fix something that was clearly broken--and it all started by hiring the right coach.

 

The odds are Morey won't trade Harden unless a greater talent is on the other end of that deal.  Since that's not happening I'm likely going to have to accept Harden being around.   :unsure:


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#23 txtdo1411

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 11:11 PM

I would like to think having a losing record heading into the All-Star Break and being the punch line of a joke when it comes to his defense would be enough, but maybe he needs more.

 

I just saw a headline pointing out that, including today's trade, Stan Van Gundy only has 2 players remaining from the team he inherited just two years ago.  In essence, it has been just over 1 1/2 seasons and the only guys left are Drummond and KCP.  In all fairness, they didn't have a guy like Harden.  Still, I really like the commitment to make the necessary changes and fix something that was clearly broken--and it all started by hiring the right coach.

 

The odds are Morey won't trade Harden unless a greater talent is on the other end of that deal.  Since that's not happening I'm likely going to have to accept Harden being around.   :unsure:

 

I would think so as well, and it seems he has been giving a little more lately, but I don't know what makes him tick. It has gotten to the point where the whole team seems disheartened. I think they have lost their mojo. They don't know what it takes to consistently win anymore. I think they are losing faith in each other, and more importantly in the system. They desperately need a head coach and staff to come in a grab the reigns. I still hate that we "promoted" Bickerstaff when he was our defensive guy, and the defense was what clearly needed work. 

 

I will say it does seem that Harden and Howard do not enjoy playing together. I'm not sure where it stems from, or whose "fault" it is, but it seems obvious that they don't mesh well on the court. It could be that Howard is tired of covering for Harden on the defensive end. It could be something entirely different. I'm not sure what is going on, but Howard doesn't even look to outlet it to Harden anymore. No PnR the first 6 mins of a game, then Capela comes in, and it's 5 straight lobs at the rim... It does not make sense, but it is what's happening. Capela and Harden seem to have more synergy than Harden and Howard which makes 0 sense seeing as how this is their 3rd season together. 

 

Regarding SVG, there is quite a difference between our current roster and situation. The Rockets are coming off 3 straight playoff seasons and a WCF appearance, while Stan inherited a team that had 5 straight losing seasons. I admire trying to fix issues, but I don't want to start making knee-jerk moves because of 2/3 of a bad season. Let's see what happens at the trade deadline, and how Harden responds post-ASB. 


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#24 thejohnnygold

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 04:35 PM

I would think so as well, and it seems he has been giving a little more lately, but I don't know what makes him tick. It has gotten to the point where the whole team seems disheartened. I think they have lost their mojo. They don't know what it takes to consistently win anymore. I think they are losing faith in each other, and more importantly in the system. They desperately need a head coach and staff to come in a grab the reigns. I still hate that we "promoted" Bickerstaff when he was our defensive guy, and the defense was what clearly needed work. 

 

I will say it does seem that Harden and Howard do not enjoy playing together. I'm not sure where it stems from, or whose "fault" it is, but it seems obvious that they don't mesh well on the court. It could be that Howard is tired of covering for Harden on the defensive end. It could be something entirely different. I'm not sure what is going on, but Howard doesn't even look to outlet it to Harden anymore. No PnR the first 6 mins of a game, then Capela comes in, and it's 5 straight lobs at the rim... It does not make sense, but it is what's happening. Capela and Harden seem to have more synergy than Harden and Howard which makes 0 sense seeing as how this is their 3rd season together. 

 

Regarding SVG, there is quite a difference between our current roster and situation. The Rockets are coming off 3 straight playoff seasons and a WCF appearance, while Stan inherited a team that had 5 straight losing seasons. I admire trying to fix issues, but I don't want to start making knee-jerk moves because of 2/3 of a bad season. Let's see what happens at the trade deadline, and how Harden responds post-ASB. 

 

You are right about Howard/Harden.  It's weird because Howard can make Harden's life so much easier by forcing opposing bigs to stick to him and by racking up fouls on them.  You'd think James would foster that.

 

I don't lay much blame at JB's feet.  His defense was excellent last season.  It's not like he forgot what he was doing--it's the guys out there doing it (or not doing it).  Same goes for McHale--he got fired because the team quit on him--that's it.  At this point, JB stands little chance of coming back unless he can inspire this group to play like they care.

 

I agree that the Detroit situation is different.  I was more pointing towards SVG's ability to reconstruct that roster into something he likes so quickly.  Do they have any stars?  Not according to the media, but Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond will be as soon as they make some playoff noise.  Stanley Johnson is pretty much acknowledged to be a stud-in-progress.  KCP is coming into his own as well.  Not bad, really.  If they can play as a unit I think they can take on any star-laden team.  Oh yeah, I forgot Tobias Harris...not sure how much that moves the needle for them given they already have Morris and Ilyasova....I guess we'll see.

 

I get that it may seem like a knee jerk reaction to want to trade Harden, but for me the exception is not this season--it's the last one.  He has been pretty consistent except for last season when he actually worked.  He clearly does not want to, nor believe he should, work that hard.  As I have pointed out, when a guy says, "I can't play defense because I get tired", it is time for him to go.  If he had said, "I can't play defense because I am out of shape, but I'm going to fix that", then I would be fine with him.

 

The attachment to Harden is kind of weird for a lot of Rockets fans (in my opinion).  Not talking about anyone in particular, but in general there seems to be this common fear of being without a star.  It reminds me of the guys who stay with a girl, even though he knows it's not working and would be better off without her, because he figures it's better than being alone.  What?!?!  One, being single is awesome.  Two, there is always another girl out there.  

 

It's not because he's not "perfect".  Nobody is perfect.  It's a serious character flaw.  Girls who repeatedly cheat on a guy aren't perfect....moving on isn't a bad thing.  James has a major, fundamental flaw.  It's not likely to change.  It's either get used to disappointment or move on.

 

This fear of being without a star player is confounding.  It makes a lot of presumptions--most of which I find false and deluded.  In reality, there are only about 4 star players in this league (right now).  Steph, Westbrook, LeBron James, and Durant (Kawhi doesn't count because of SA).  Of those 4 only 2 have titles.  In essence, this dire need for a star with which to win a title is limited to James and Steph.  If you aren't "dating" one of them then you aren't likely to get anywhere without a great coach and a great overall team.

 

It would be one thing if he was putting in the effort and leading by example.  I'll hitch my cart to that horse and see where it goes.  Harden's not that kind of guy.  He's going to knock the cart over, eat all your apples, and then say it's not his fault and not his problem.

 

giphy.gif

 

I don't need anymore time to determine that Harden is an excuse-making slacker who thinks basketball is only played on one side of the court.  Just wait until he goes full Baron Davis on us...Yeah, I can be the best player on the court anytime I want....tonight is not that night.   :mellow:


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#25 ale11

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 05:46 PM

 

 

I agree that the Detroit situation is different.  I was more pointing towards SVG's ability to reconstruct that roster into something he likes so quickly.  Do they have any stars?  Not according to the media, but Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond will be as soon as they make some playoff noise.  Stanley Johnson is pretty much acknowledged to be a stud-in-progress.  KCP is coming into his own as well.  Not bad, really.  If they can play as a unit I think they can take on any star-laden team.  Oh yeah, I forgot Tobias Harris...not sure how much that moves the needle for them given they already have Morris and Ilyasova....I guess we'll see.

 

 

 

Ilyasova was part of the Harris deal.


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#26 DenverRocket

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 06:11 PM

I get that it may seem like a knee jerk reaction to want to trade Harden, but for me the exception is not this season--it's the last one.  He has been pretty consistent except for last season when he actually worked.  He clearly does not want to, nor believe he should, work that hard.  As I have pointed out, when a guy says, "I can't play defense because I get tired", it is time for him to go.  If he had said, "I can't play defense because I am out of shape, but I'm going to fix that", then I would be fine with him.

 

The attachment to Harden is kind of weird for a lot of Rockets fans (in my opinion).  Not talking about anyone in particular, but in general there seems to be this common fear of being without a star.  It reminds me of the guys who stay with a girl, even though he knows it's not working and would be better off without her, because he figures it's better than being alone.  What?!?!  One, being single is awesome.  Two, there is always another girl out there.  

 

It's not because he's not "perfect".  Nobody is perfect.  It's a serious character flaw.  Girls who repeatedly cheat on a guy aren't perfect....moving on isn't a bad thing.  James has a major, fundamental flaw.  It's not likely to change.  It's either get used to disappointment or move on.

 

Amusing analogy :-) I guess, if you view the relationship between Harden and the Rockets as a casual relationship, you're right. On the other hand, if you view it as a consummated marriage, you might want to try and work things out and not bail at the first bump in the road.

 

I get that you're pissed off with Harden, but you seem pretty bitter and adamant that he's in some way cheated on you/us. He and the team showed last season that they can be players in the race to to the championship - why are you not willing to give him a shot at redemption? That's right, there's plenty more fish in the sea! In a different thread, if I recall correctly, you lamented the new short-termism in the coaching carousel, but you seem to be advocating just that in this situation?

 

Whatever has happened to kill the chemistry needs to be rectified. Something needs to change, certainly, but we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Within the framework of the business/contractual situation, the front-office needs to identify the root cause of the malaise and construct a solution that gives us a shot at improving and achieving our ultimate objectives (a championship run).

 

You've clearly made your mind up on Harden and you may be right, only time will tell, but I personally think it's not time to pull the plug just yet. In the right situation I believe he can be part of a winning team - hopefully for the Rockets!


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#27 txtdo1411

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 06:13 PM

You are right about Howard/Harden.  It's weird because Howard can make Harden's life so much easier by forcing opposing bigs to stick to him and by racking up fouls on them.  You'd think James would foster that.

 

I don't lay much blame at JB's feet.  His defense was excellent last season.  It's not like he forgot what he was doing--it's the guys out there doing it (or not doing it).  Same goes for McHale--he got fired because the team quit on him--that's it.  At this point, JB stands little chance of coming back unless he can inspire this group to play like they care.

 

I agree that the Detroit situation is different.  I was more pointing towards SVG's ability to reconstruct that roster into something he likes so quickly.  Do they have any stars?  Not according to the media, but Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond will be as soon as they make some playoff noise.  Stanley Johnson is pretty much acknowledged to be a stud-in-progress.  KCP is coming into his own as well.  Not bad, really.  If they can play as a unit I think they can take on any star-laden team.  Oh yeah, I forgot Tobias Harris...not sure how much that moves the needle for them given they already have Morris and Ilyasova....I guess we'll see.

 

I get that it may seem like a knee jerk reaction to want to trade Harden, but for me the exception is not this season--it's the last one.  He has been pretty consistent except for last season when he actually worked.  He clearly does not want to, nor believe he should, work that hard.  As I have pointed out, when a guy says, "I can't play defense because I get tired", it is time for him to go.  If he had said, "I can't play defense because I am out of shape, but I'm going to fix that", then I would be fine with him.

 

The attachment to Harden is kind of weird for a lot of Rockets fans (in my opinion).  Not talking about anyone in particular, but in general there seems to be this common fear of being without a star.  It reminds me of the guys who stay with a girl, even though he knows it's not working and would be better off without her, because he figures it's better than being alone.  What?!?!  One, being single is awesome.  Two, there is always another girl out there.  

 

It's not because he's not "perfect".  Nobody is perfect.  It's a serious character flaw.  Girls who repeatedly cheat on a guy aren't perfect....moving on isn't a bad thing.  James has a major, fundamental flaw.  It's not likely to change.  It's either get used to disappointment or move on.

 

This fear of being without a star player is confounding.  It makes a lot of presumptions--most of which I find false and deluded.  In reality, there are only about 4 star players in this league (right now).  Steph, Westbrook, LeBron James, and Durant (Kawhi doesn't count because of SA).  Of those 4 only 2 have titles.  In essence, this dire need for a star with which to win a title is limited to James and Steph.  If you aren't "dating" one of them then you aren't likely to get anywhere without a great coach and a great overall team.

 

It would be one thing if he was putting in the effort and leading by example.  I'll hitch my cart to that horse and see where it goes.  Harden's not that kind of guy.  He's going to knock the cart over, eat all your apples, and then say it's not his fault and not his problem.

 

giphy.gif

 

I don't need anymore time to determine that Harden is an excuse-making slacker who thinks basketball is only played on one side of the court.  Just wait until he goes full Baron Davis on us...Yeah, I can be the best player on the court anytime I want....tonight is not that night.   :mellow:

 

Yup just agree to disagree  :D

 

I get it. I understand it, but I just don't agree. It's a girl that I've been happily dating for 3 years, had the best time of my life 7 months ago with, and just recently started treating me like crap. I'm not going to just give up on the relationship that easily. I'm going to try to figure out whats going on, and do everything in my power to attempt to make it work. That's how relationships go. 

 

I think the common fear of being without a star is a legitimate one. There are teams that have been searching for decades without ever even having a remote shot of making it past the 1st round of the playoffs. The Hawks last year had a roster full of complimentary players, a great coaching staff, and a system which they ran to perfection. They didn't make it close to the championship. The games might be more entertaining, but I was enjoying the heck out of our team last year in the playoffs. What harm does waiting one season, see if you can bring in a staff and system, and see what happens? It delays a rebuild by a year, but so what? We are still right back where we have been the past 20 years. It's basketball purgatory. I'm not near as eager as you to get back there. 

 

I won't even disagree with you saying we will never win a championship with Harden. The odds are very very very much in your favor. We are extremely far behind the 8 ball right now, and seem to be trending in the opposite direction. But I don't see what trading Harden does to improve our chances. We will wait 5-10 years until we land our next flawed "star", have a few good seasons, have a rough one, and then say "we will never win a championship with player X". And you know, we will probably be 100% right in saying that as well. 


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#28 thejohnnygold

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 10:00 PM

Ilyasova was part of the Harris deal.

 

I knew that....not sure what I was thinking.   :wacko:

 

@DenverRocket

 

I wasn't relating anything between the Rockets and Harden; although, I can certainly see that.  I was describing some of the fans of the team and Harden.

 

I wouldn't say I was pissed off--disappointed is more apt.  The cheating analogy wasn't in any way relevant to me--it was just the first thing that popped in my head as something most people consider worthy of a break up when it seems to be the norm and not the exception.

 

You are right that I was lamenting the short-term approach GM's are taking with coaches.  I suppose I am guilty of doing so with Harden.  I do think it is different to a degree.  We rolled the dice on James Harden having never seen him in a lead role.  Now, after examining a body of work I feel confident that he is not what we were hoping for.  Now, do we go ahead and keep him for the next 10+ years or cut ties and move on?

 

He is on a very good contract right now so keeping him makes some sense.  If we can somehow relegate him to 2nd in line I think things can work out (maybe), but as long as this is "his" team I think we will struggle.  That good contract combined with his prolific offense makes him quite the trade asset.  No telling what the return would be, but I'm guessing it would be a bundle of high draft picks.

 

As I have said--I'd love to be wrong.  It's not like I want us to be bad.  I just want us to play with passion and purpose. 

 

@txtdo1411

 

I know--agree to disagree.  I'm not trying to convert anyone--just enjoying the discussion.  All my friends here are mostly Sci-Fi geeks and, at best, enjoy watching a little football.  Gotta vent to someone  :lol:

 

I sometimes forget that there are younger Rockets fans who may have missed the fun times in the 80's and 90's.  Heck, it's not like all of the '00s were that bad either.  I don't know if that's the case for you--just guessing.

 

I understand how relationships go--which is why I used the severe analogy I did.  I feel we are past "trying to make it work".  In my eyes, James Harden may as well have said he likes to kick puppies in his off time.

 

Your Hawks analogy is true--except you are omitting the context with which it all went down.  Thabo Sefolosha got shot in the leg just before playoffs (an incident that also involved Antic).  They made it to the EC Finals (getting past a very good WAS team), and then DeMarre Carroll gets hurt in Game 1, game 2 Korver goes down, Horford gets ejected in game 3, and that was that.  The Hawks proceeded to go cold from deep while, for Cleveland, Shumpert shot 43% from deep and JR Smith shot 48%.  They lost their top two defenders and best sharp-shooter....that makes things tough.

 

I would call that getting "close" to a championship since it is exactly as close as we got.

 

This season, the Hawks are sporting the 15th ranked offense and 5th ranked defense.  Last year they were 6th in both.  I think the loss of Pero Antic hurt more than they realized the same way Channing Frye's departure hurt Phoenix.  They really benefited not only from the spacing, but the 3 pt. shooting.  Meanwhile, Tiago Splitter (Antic's replacement) has missed half the season.  Obviously, Korver's shooting is pertinent here as well.

 

When you use the term "basketball purgatory" it helps me understand your viewpoint on all this better.  I don't see it that way at all.  I actually think there is more hope and optimism in that "purgatory" than in putting our fate in the hands of Mr. Harden.  I agree with you that it is easy to say we won't win with Harden as the odds are greatly against it (even if he weren't a lazy bum  ;) ).

 

I'm not looking for a broken record here.  No need to rinse and repeat.  That is why I'm not solely advocating for a trade of Harden.  I'm pushing for the whole enchilada.  A new coach.  A new system.  A new philosophy, culture, and anything else.

 

It's been proven what happens when you combine passion, talent, and quality coaching/systems.  You get dynasties.  Bulls, Lakers, Spurs, and whatever the Warriors get during this run.  Utah should count (Stockton/Malone) in my opinion--despite no titles.

 

Like I said before, Harden isn't going anywhere (unless Morey drinks a bunch of whiskey and starts drunk-dialing other GM's).  Hopefully, our next coach can do the things people are hoping for.  I'll be hoping with you. 


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#29 clydesmoustache

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    Posted 18 February 2016 - 06:16 AM

    Ha Baron Davis! That is a better example of Harden's floor! Out of shape and the beard of course. Arenas blew out his knee. I think he still could have been a player if that didn't happen. Even with the mental health issues.
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    #30 thenit

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      Posted 18 February 2016 - 08:13 PM

      http://www.thescore....nba/news/962187

       

      This is worrying, Harden and Howard are reportedly tried to get each other traded. Maybe this explains why there aren't any P&R between them but Capela gets a good amount ?


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