55 replies to this topic

[slick shoes]

As the games roll on by, it is becoming more and more apparent that JB should not be the head coach for the Houston Rockets next season. I know there are many requesting Thibbs as a replacement, but I don't really feel as though he would be best for our organization long term. Lionel Hollins could be interesting, but that would be a gamble for sure (though, what coaching change isn't?). I am curious to see who else you all think we could lure in and/or who would be a good fit going forward. JG has mentioned Luke Walton as a potential candidate and I agree he is definitely worth an interview or two. For some reason I also keep coming back to Kevin Ollie from UConn. Discuss.

[Jatman20]

When McHale was released, I read an article naming possible candidates: JVG, Cassel (former Rocket, ast with Clippers??), Mario Elie (former Rocket, ast with the Magic), Tibbs (frequent visitor to Rockets practices since his release from the Bulls), Mark Jackson (Please no!!), Scottie Brooks (former Rocket, former head coach Thunder).

"If" the Rockets are keeping D12/Harden......they will go on strike against the drill sergeant Tibbs. I liked Scottie Brooks for the job. During that time I felt Durant may have been preferring Brooks over Billy D (not sure if Durant played a part in the release of Brooks). May be something that lures Durant to Houston this summer.....that and the friendship with Harden. I'm not sold on Walton.....a monkey can coach that team. Curls off of mid screens allowing Curry, Klay, Livingston, Barbosa to drive to the basket to draw defenders and kick out to (42% as a team) 3 point shooters.
Luke will definitely have to coach our (Rockets) team.

Edited by Jatman20, 21 January 2016 - 11:03 PM.

[rockets best fan]

JVG.....JVG........JVG. that's my first 3 choices for the new coach  I don't know if we can lure him from his gravy job right now, but I believe we should be trying. problem is to lure him Morey is going to have to take a step back because Jeff does things his own way. however there is no doubt in my mind the man is a hell of a coach. if we can't lure him its likely we will end up with Scott Brooks IMO. we will be chasing Durrant during the off season and this will be a power move in his direction. I don't believe Durrant was whole heartily on board with Brooks firing in OKC. if they fall to win the championship this year Durrant will likely seek a change of scenery IMO. make NO mistake the free agents we intend to pursue this summer will influence our choice to some degree. that's why Brooks worries me. Walton will likely get a look, but the Rockets will likely seek name recognition.

[Willk]

The Rockets have to hire Thibs. It was not a coincidence that Harden played his best defense last year after spending the summer working with Thibs. The Rockets need to get back to the defense first attitude they had last year and Thibs is the only coach who can do it.

[majik19]

I don't trust Thibs when it comes to minutes management. I also think we struggle enough on offense (if Harden's off, so are we) and that would only get worse, though I'm sure he could improve the defense.

 

I don't know if Lionel Hollins could get us "over the hump" either, though he would be better than JB.

 

I've considered Kevin Ollie, and he might be a good hire, but I just don't know much about him other than they won that national championship.

 

Johnny gold thought Luke Walton might be a good idea. At first I wasn't on board, but the longer Kerr is out, the more I think he might just have the chops. Yes, it's Kerr's system, but Walton clearly knows it pretty well. The other thing that makes me nervous is just how poorly Alvin Gentry is doing in New Orleans (but maybe we should've seen that coming, given that Gentry did not do so well in his previous stint as a head coach).

 

I think I'd be up for a second go-round with JVG, but I'm just concerned that the game has evolved so much since he was last a HC. Obviously he follows basketball very closely, and he's a smart guy, but I'm just worried about it.

 

I absolutely do not want Scott Brooks. If he couldn't do it in OKC with the talent he had there, it's not happening here. And his offensive system pretty much amounted to "Kevin, Russ, you two go figure it out. Serge, sit in a corner or at the elbow and wait for an open shot."

[Jatman20]

@majik19: I can see your reservations on Scott Brooks. I don't hold injuries against Brooks.....Harden/Durant/Westbrook faced a Miami team in the finals that learned the importance of having 3 point shooters (Dallas played a zone and won the finals series the previous season). So Miami obtained or gathered guys like Ray Allen, Battier, Mike Miller, ect for that reason and beat the Thunder. Harden was traded and Westbrook got hurt vs Beverley and missed the playoffs. The next season Durant was out.

I'm sure everyone has a preference in coaches. I searched, "Durant having a part in Brooks firing?" Found a Durant statement at that time of him backing the franchise 100%; but was surprised by the move. He wrote a well thought-out statement thanking Brooks for everything and claims Brooks taught him so much during their time together......from the initial days when he was drafted by the Sonics to what was the present date. Just my opinion.....the Thunder system and the Rocket system may not be that different. Where I don't think Westbrook and Harden could co-exist......I think Harden and Durant can......Harden respects Durant's game and Durant has had his issues with Westbrook's final minutes of games judgement or lack there of. Just my personal opinion Durant/Harden can share better. Brooks is already familiar with those types of egos.

Edited by Jatman20, 22 January 2016 - 07:15 PM.

[Jatman20]

I would reunite Brooks and Harden again regardless of Durant. Just my opinion Rockets chances of obtaining Durant this summer: 8%
........Washington19%, Lakers/Miami/Knicks/Nets 14% each, OKC 13%. Rockets w/Brooks goes from 8% to 12%. OKC in my opinion will lose this year and fail to make the NBA finals. Durant will bolt.

*side note......Nets can probably get down to $46 million and chase Durant......that will leave about $16-20 million to seek PG/SG holes on the Nets roster. If Durant says no to the Nets.....I expect the Russian billionaire to go hard for our D-Mo.
IMO.

Edited by Jatman20, 22 January 2016 - 08:25 PM.

[thejohnnygold]

First off, why don't we already have coaching statistics readily available?  I mean beyond W's and L's.  Records in close games.  Points coming out of time outs.  Some kind of player rating system to see if players hate them or not.  I don't know....seems reasonable.

 

I don't love the idea, but I can see Brooks being our coach next season.  We could do a lot worse.  I would be surprised if we went with Kevin Ollie, but I also know very little about him outside of his NBA career and UConn championship run.

 

As far as Walton goes, he's not my favorite--but I think if we are going to roll the dice on someone he is as good a choice as any.  It's not based on his record with GS.  It's based on the fact his team is continuing to stay focused and blow out the league's best teams on a regular basis.  It's based on them being good on both ends of the floor.  It's based on his previously mentioned pedigree.

 

I think there is a chance Jason Kidd will be available at season's end.  I don't blame him for the train wreck season they are having in Milwaukee.  I blame the GM, John Hammond (who also had a hand in destroying Detroit under Joe Dumars) and injuries.  I wouldn't mind giving him the keys to this car.

[majik19]

I think there is a chance Jason Kidd will be available at season's end.  I don't blame him for the train wreck season they are having in Milwaukee.  I blame the GM, John Hammond (who also had a hand in destroying Detroit under Joe Dumars) and injuries.  I wouldn't mind giving him the keys to this car.

 

I don't want Kidd. Everything that went on in New Jersey and the way he got out of there was shady (yes I know it's a dumpster fire up there, but still). Genius point guard, really re-invented himself as a good shooter (those of us old enough may remember he was an awful shooter early in his career). Seems to be a decent coach. But I don't like the ego. 

 

Part of the reason you can't blame him for Milwaukee as well is because he's been out a few weeks himself... 

 

And so, with the Eric Blatt firing, you have to put him high up on the list of potential Rockets coaches moving forward... 

Edited by majik19, 22 January 2016 - 09:27 PM.

[clydesmoustache]

I am not getting the Thibs can't be trusted with over working his players. Don't we always rank highly with minutes played for our starters?

I have never liked Walton but that is my own biases. I'm not sure if any of you played ball with the coaches son but it always seemed like they would get ample opportunity to shine with less criticism. Anyway probably unfairly I have felt this about Walton throughout his career. His father has been a larger than life personality in the league. That said he has been mentored by the best coach of my generation so he us definitely credible.

Not surprised that Cleveland fired their coach but i am that they signed their assistant to a multi year deal. Lue has been around for ages though.

[thejohnnygold]

Yeah, Kidd didn't do himself any good PR-wise with the Brooklyn thing.  I don't blame him though.  I'd have chewed off my leg to get out of there.  I am fine with his ego.

 

Blatt?  I don't know.  Hard to grade him based on his time in Cleveland.  I do like that he knows the Princeton Offense.  We could use some of that around here and a healthy D-Mo would be amazing in that system.

 

 

 

[rockets best fan]

I don't want Kidd. Everything that went on in New Jersey and the way he got out of there was shady (yes I know it's a dumpster fire up there, but still). Genius point guard, really re-invented himself as a good shooter (those of us old enough may remember he was an awful shooter early in his career). Seems to be a decent coach. But I don't like the ego. 

 

Part of the reason you can't blame him for Milwaukee as well is because he's been out a few weeks himself... 

 

And so, with the Eric Blatt firing, you have to put him high up on the list of potential Rockets coaches moving forward... 

I agree on Kidd. that whole New Jersey situation was ugly. it left a mark on his resume' to me.  as for the Blatt subject.....he deserved to be fired IMO. Cleveland is having one on the same problems we are having.........the inmates are running the asylum   NO COACH CAN BE EFFECTIVE IF HE IS AFRAID OF THE PLAYERS. David Blatt was afraid of the players.  

[Willk]

I agree on Kidd. that whole New Jersey situation was ugly. it left a mark on his resume' to me. as for the Blatt subject.....he deserved to be fired IMO. Cleveland is having one on the same problems we are having.........the inmates are running the asylum NO COACH CAN BE EFFECTIVE IF HE IS AFRAID OF THE PLAYERS. David Blatt was afraid of the players.

I liked the stories that came out about Blatt today. He was drawing up plays for players who were not in the game. Couple that with the fact he was taking up so much time during timeouts that the players had to get on him to get a play drawn up. Nothing about him says leader well unless you ask him. He will gladly tell you how great he is. He has as big of an ego as anyone has ever had. It is something special when your players and the media both hate you. Hopefully his parents like him.

[Willk]

Yeah, Kidd didn't do himself any good PR-wise with the Brooklyn thing. I don't blame him though. I'd have chewed off my leg to get out of there. I am fine with his ego.

Blatt? I don't know. Hard to grade him based on his time in Cleveland. I do like that he knows the Princeton Offense. We could use some of that around here and a healthy D-Mo would be amazing in that system.

A definite no to The Princeton offense. Like Lebron said last year when he made Blatt scrap it, it does not work in the modern NBA, just like the Triangle.
And a double no to Blatt. He is so unlikeable.
Yes to having a healthy DMO. I don't know if he will be healthy this year. A Back surgery is a serious thing. I think many people underestimated how hard it is to come back from that. Imagine a healthy DMO, Josh Smith, Harden, and Lawson. The ball will be popping.

[Jatman20]

No Princeton offense johnnygold.......please no. We haven't signed Brooks, so im guessing Harden has already called Durant if that would be advantageous or in our favor. For the record I have expressed my wish for Brooks over Bickerstaff. To show its not about race, I would stay with Bickerstaff over Walton as a choice. Bickerstaff is the son of a former NBA coach who has probably learned and studied the game most of his life.
Parsons, Harden and Jason Terry have raved about him since he was promoted to Rockets head coach. Walton's pedigree is his father, Lute Olsen,
Phil Jackson (Lakers), Alvin Gentry......other ast's. Gentry is floundering with the Pels since leaving the Warriors. If the components were changed.....Bickerstaff in GSW while Walton was coaching the Rockets in place of McHale. Would Walton have only 4 loses with the Rockets? Steve Ker also played for Phil Jackson in Chicago. Who set that team up to be so self sufficient on offense and defense? Ker. Brad Stevens (Celtics), Billy Donavon (Thunder), Bickerstaff, and probably Walton away from the Warriors.....look overwhelmed. What I didn't like about Bickerstaff in the beginning was his rotation of so many different combinations. He has been with the team.....its not like he came from somewhere else and had to see what they can do. Too much time was spent wondering; which cost consistency. That was the reason for promoting within. I know this team has some head cases. Not easy for anyone.

Isaiah Thomas and Steve Smith (NBA TV) were asked about rumors of trading Mosgov. Thomas said after the Cavs were blown out by GSW.....it's evident that the Cavs know that they probably can't beat either the Warriors or Spurs in a series. So a trade may be what they need. The host responded by saying, can't they improve on their own. Thomas responded by saying, it's the middle of the season. This time of year, every team is what it is, pretty much. You have two options 1) trade players to improve or 2) Practice. Teams don't have much practice during the season. The Cavs would have just the all-star break for that. I would agree. Walton would have to adapt from offense driven from the point to offense driven from the SG (Harden). That may not be hard; but Curry has 40% 3 point shooters across the board.....the Rockets do not have that luxury. Switching defense is good for the GSW's. Rockets lack the personnel to do it so well.

P.S. The knock on Thibs is he runs the players into the ground. Minutes during the game are one thing; but follow that up with extreme practices. Same complaint I hear about former Giants (football) coach. Only Coach C had melo'd out in recent years according to some of his players.

Edited by Jatman20, 23 January 2016 - 09:45 PM.

[Jatman20]

I agree with you Willk. Mike Brown tried the Princeton offense with the Lakers when D12 arrived. He got fired in two weeks. Charles Barkley said during those two weeks......that offense needed to go. He made the point that the Princeton offense has never won a championship in college or the pros. I think it has won an NIT championship. I have heard the same about the triangle offense. I'm not sure about that. I don't like Melo in that system. His reputation is that he doesn't share the ball....now he is asked to share it. Jury is still out on that. Durant or LeBron might be able to make it work; but that goes with the joke during the days when Livingston, Lamar Odom, Gary Grant and Eldon Brandt (Clippers of old). "The Clippers are just one player away from being a contender........Michael Jordan." Clippers use to be dwellers of the basement. Before Blake.

Edited by Jatman20, 23 January 2016 - 11:40 PM.

[thejohnnygold]

Just to be clear so everyone can stop trashing the Princeton offense.  My words were, "we could use some of that around here".  Some.  SOME.  Let's relax and realize I am merely excited about a coach who understands the importance of passing and movement in an offensive system.

 

Any offensive system is only as good as its personnel.  Barkley is a blow-hard, and people were simply clamoring for Steve Nash to continue doing what he had done in Phoenix (pick n roll with Amare).  They wanted a Steve Nash pick n roll on every play.  Yet, this is what Brown had to say in response to all that criticism and I, apparently all alone on this, agree with him.

 

 

"Every time down the floor — and if they want to, they can call Steve Nash and ask him — Steve Nash has the right to play pick-and-roll if he wants to," Brown said. "He has said it himself that he doesn't feel like he's as burdened because he doesn't have to make every play for everybody all the time with what we're trying to do. He can give it up and still have a chance to get it back. He's said that he feels as fresh as he's ever felt in his career because he doesn't feel the pressure of making every single play."

 

Brown suggested that headaches created now by the offense would eventually disappear.

"We could spread the floor and play pick-and-roll all the time ... but it will make us one-dimensional," he said. "And when we're in seven-game playoff series, for sure the later we get into the playoffs, they'll be able to take us out of the offense because we'll be so one-dimensional. What we're trying to do, we're trying to eliminate that and be hard to guard because it's a read-based offense."

 

Saying "Princeton never won an NCAA title" as a way to downplay an offensive system is hilarious.  It doesn't mean you can't get out and run.  It doesn't mean you can't run a pick n roll.  Presuming that a coach can't take elements of that offense and craft them into something modern and better is ignoring what we see actual NBA teams doing every single night out there.  Spoelstra, Kerr, Pop, Stevens, Carlisle....whatever.  Storm the castle with your pitchforks.  Kill that filthy monster so we can all continue watching Harden iso and jack a long three with a hand in his face, turn the ball over, or make a sloppy pass to a team mate with 2 seconds on the clock and no time to do anything but chuck it.  We can call it the Brick-ton Offense.

 

Also, Nash was a solid spot up shooter.  Nash played 1 1/2 games for Brown before his back quit.  Dwight was at 60% (or so) during that time.  Brown was fired after 5 games against DAL, POR, LAC, DET, and UTA.  They beat Detroit and lost to the other 4 teams--all of which were playoff caliber squads (DAL was missing Dirk in that 1st game).  I don't see any of this as an indictment on Brown or his offensive philosophy.

 

Rather than listen to Barkley, Isaiah Thomas, or Magic Johnson trash Brown and the Princeton offense I prefer this video from NBA TV with former NBA pg's explaining exactly why it is a good offensive system and demonstrating it in slo-mo.  Look close and you will see some pretty familiar stuff that "smart" teams do.

 

 

Which brings me back to my point.  It's about personnel.  In this case, you need "smart" players at all 5 positions to successfully run a motion offense.  You also need skilled players at all 5 positions to successfully run a motion offense (at least average skills).  Houston, as currently constructed, cannot do this successfully.  They can't do it on defense trying to learn how to switch.  How could they do it on offense?  They can't and they don't.

 

Read this quick article from back when they first hired Blatt.  Mike Miller praises Blatt's offense as "borderline genius".  Then, LeBron chimes in and you can easily read between the lines: we're not all smart enough to execute this system.

 

 

 

"It's very free flowing and it's going to be challenging for guys," James said. "I can see it. Guys are kind of thinking through it a little too much, but I think when we get it there are so many different options. It's live at every position and there's a counter to everything a defense can do."

 

Josh Smith, despite popular opinion, is excellent for this.  D-Mo (please get healthy) along with Smith would be ideal together.  They have skills and smarts.  Dwight and TJ?  Well, you have all watched them long enough to know what we have with them.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinions--just as I am to mine.  LeBron saying the Princeton offense doesn't work in the modern NBA is really LeBron saying, it doesn't work for me.  It doesn't work when you've got a bunch of me-first players.  It doesn't work with low b-ball IQ players.  Once again, look at SA and GS.  They don't allow ego to interfere and look what happens.  Brad Stevens is just a little bit of talent away (basically, one elite defensive center) from taking over the East.  Just watch.  Mike Budenholzer had ATL crushing it until the wheels fell off.  Indiana (before me-first Lance Stephenson went and mucked it up) was nearly able to topple the Miami juggernaut.

 

If we want to talk about what does and does not work in the "modern NBA" I think it is pretty obvious.  There is a lot of talent and when you can create a situation where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts you can trump "elite" talent that tries to beat you by itself.  At this point, if we aren't working towards that end then we are just spinning our wheels.

 

To close, here is how Blatt himself describes the offense.  

 

 

In the full Princeton, there are no plays. Well, there are plays, but there are not called plays. According to the movement of the ball, and the movement of the center, you’re gonna get into certain sets that you read according to how the defense plays you.

That’s the part of the Princeton offense you can see in my teams — the reading and the multi-option possibilities off of any play. The Princeton offense is something that takes a long time to develop. It requires a particular kind of player, and more than anything else, it requires the giving up on the part of all the players of almost everything they know.

But elements of the Princeton offense, in my mind — they are the right way to play.

 

It's a decent article, and Blatt also explains that he tailors his schemes to match the personnel.  If we brought in Blatt it would have to be long term.  Let him draft, develop, and build a culture and system that is sustainable.  This is why it's so funny when people say, "we should do what SA does!", without realizing that it didn't happen overnight.

[thejohnnygold]

Our respected friend at bballbreakdown posted this video about Blatt getting fired.  It is certainly an op-ed piece, but he tries to remain unbiased in looking at what is actually happening in Cleveland.  Watch for yourselves and see if you agree with him.

 

 

For fun, here is what Coach Nick thought Blatt would bring to the Cavs....

 

[Sir Thursday]

I'm not sure why everyone's hating on the Princeton offence. That was a key part of what Adelman ran when he was here, and by my reckoning it was one of the factors that helped those teams overachieve even with all the Yao/T-Mac injuries. I think what did become apparent is that it took some time for players to become accustomed to it, and certainly there were some players that it favoured over others. Any good coach needs to be able to look at their personnel and decide whether it's the right system - maybe the point was that for the Cavs it didn't make sense. Guys like Tristan Thompson and Mozgov aren't really known for their passing from the elbows...

 

ST

[Jatman20]

Its not an easy system to learn. You just don't bring in guys from another team and throw them out on the court and say work it out (for purpose of enticing FA's or in trade). Many teams are going to pace and space because stats back them up. Analytics show how shooting a lesser FG% but attempting more shots can make you the victor.
Princeton offense is a lot of motion with and without the ball meant to confuse the opposition and create back door cuts. It's counter productive to space and pace. Much of the time clock gets eaten up, resorting to a heave at the end of the sequence (yes, much like Harden in iso or D12 in post ups.....which is a form of iso). The biggest con of the Princeton O is that if a team does its homework and learns where the players are to go.....it actually can be easy to shut down. It's smoke and mirrors.....the magician saying look at my right hand (player motion) while the left hand is stealing your wallet (back door cuts).

Hypothetical: Curry (he shot 64% from the left corner 3 deep into last years playoffs; which brought up the situation question) shoots 64% from 3; while LeBron James makes 96% of his dunks......same equal amount of FG attempts. Curry 64% x 50 (3p) FGA = 96 points///LeBron 96% x 50 (2p dunks) FGA=96 points. Now a team probably won't shoot 64% from 3 every game and a team probably won't hit 96% of all their 2's.....but the Warriors have been hitting about 43% from 3 most of the year. This is where pace beats plop-plop slow the game......more shot attempts.....especially from 3 (helps if you have good to decent 3 point shooters around Harden). Warriors are different than small ball teams of the past that try small ball the whole game.
They tend to use small ball in about 10 mins in the first half ( get 6-10 point lead during this time) and then about 10 mins in the second half (get a 6-10 point increase). By games end they beat you by about 12-20 points with run and gun out pacing you. They force you to take your bigs out during those stretches. Draymond at the 5 and Harrison Barnes at the 4 gives them 5 guys on the court that can hit 3's at a good % clip while out running your big's down the court......and most teams run fast break to get to the rim.....no-no-no they give the appearance of attacking the rim to set up a fast break 3 as they have you in a 3-2 or 4-3 fast break. Spurs and the media have been fluffing up the points differential the Spurs have over opponents vs the Warriors over opponents this season. In the MVP race last year all we heard was Harden plays the whole game.....Curry sits the 4th quarter.
Last night I believe I heard the announcer(s) in the Spurs/Warriors (01/25/16) game say that Curry had sat out 12 fourth quarters thus far this season.
Last night made 13 (4th quarters).

Rockets don't need to change their offense. I asked that the Rockets go mid-size if we faced the Warriors in the playoffs last season. When the series ended I saw a tweet from Jonathan Feigen (Rockets beat writer) claiming that the Rockets went quote-unquote small for a total of 11 mins. He then put for the series......not per game. In those 11 mins he claimed the Rockets had a great +/- in points during those little 11 mins. I think it was like +18.
I don't have a Twitter account. If someone can ask him please report his answer (wrong or right). I would llike to see it again.

Give me one more wing that can shoot and play a little D. Ariza has torn it up lately playing the PF the past few games with Brewer starting at SF.
Give me Josh/Ariza/Gerald Green/Harden/Thornton vs Green/Harrison/Iggy/Klay/Livingston (lineup that the Warriors used to get back into game one of the WCF's last year). I would love Josh/Aminu/Ariza/Harden/Thorton vs the lineup of death Green/Barnes/Iggy/Klay/Curry. All 10 players can run n gun, hit 3's and FT's. Advantage Warriors with D.......but it gives us a punchers chance. Fight fire with fire.
Reason I want Thornton is because the Warriors force switches getting a 6'7 or 6'8" guy on JET or Prigi. Livingston killed them in the first couple of games until we put Brewer on Livingston (he stayed with him for the most part). Brewer doesn't give us enough offense (space) and he gets posted up easily vs LeBron or Harrison Barnes or Kawhi or Draymond. A lot written; but a lot needed to be said.

Edited by Jatman20, 27 January 2016 - 02:47 AM.