80 replies to this topic

[NickyK]

I can not stop watching that shot..... I just can not comprehend from a basketball perspective how on earth he could shoot that wide open. 

 

The other thing is what about Melo's defense. Do you think he is willing to play both ends of the floor? That would be a very big question no matter his offensive game 

Someone did not play defense, that's why. When there is a screen, you supposed to switch. If you looked at the play, a double screen is set, the obvious person to switch to guard Lillard is Harden. As usual, Harden has no clue how to lay defense.

[Freebird]

A few points:

• I agree that the inbounds play was not very well executed.  Did they not practice this?  I don't know.  But it seems to me that you would want to double up on the only guy in the game shooting 50+ %.
• I also agree that Harden perhaps was a poor choice to be in the game.  Whether he's been told to be lax on defense or not, his effort and understanding of defensive strategies has been left wanting this season.
• I believe that the largest problem this series was coaching, but for another reason.  Sampson left, and with him went McHale's ability to bounce ideas and whatnot off a great coach.  No one else on that staff had that ability.

For the next season, we *really* need to find an adequate staff for McHale, since they seemed to have picked up his contract.  Perhaps put a clause in stating that a coach can't leave until the season is complete?

 

That, and I would ask for the semblance of a playbook for the even numbered quarters.  Our "play it by ear" approach seems adequate at the beginnings of each half, but we look completely confused and lost whenever we try to run clock.  Either stop slowing down the game, or have a backup plan - i.e. a small set of plays to run, for efficiency.

 

Beverley is an adequate point.  An All Star point is not an answer here - just someone competent.  Can Bev become that?  Guess we'll see.

 

I thought a previous post made a lot of sense - we don't have good 3 point shooters for a team that want to live or die by the three.  I hope all can improve, but picking up a good 3PT% shooter would seem to be the priority.  Not necessarily 'Melo, but someone.

[Rockets911]

When you have issues like this, it's the COACH AND the STAR PLAYER.

5:03 left in G6, Lopez was executing his freethrows.

Lin was then called by McHale and instructed how the next play should go.
When the 2nd freethrow was made, Howard inbounded the ball to Lin.
Lin dribbled for one or two, Harden called for the ball.
Lin had no choice but passed the ball to Harden.

McHale saw that, seemed pissed and then just turned his head back.
Lin shrugged his shoulder to McHale as well.

As people pointed out many times, this team was not coached by McHale but Harden.
Harden demanded the ball, run the play and finished the play in his will almost all of the time.
I think he was spoiled since 13-14. (He's not like that in 12-13)

Harden really has no D and no discipline.
Not to mention a champion.

McHale cannot own his star player.
Harden has been the real coach. (as we saw from the 0.9 sec play)

Videos:

Lin was called by McHale
http://on.nba.com/Rl8S2P

Harden demanded the ball. McHale pissed.
http://on.nba.com/1i6wmmN

[Richards]

When you have issues like this, it's the COACH AND the STAR PLAYER.

5:03 left in G6, Lopez was executing his freethrows.

Lin was then called by McHale and instructed how the next play should go.
When the 2nd freethrow was made, Howard inbounded the ball to Lin.
Lin dribbled for one or two, Harden called for the ball.
Lin had no choice but passed the ball to Harden.

McHale saw that, seemed pissed and then just turned his head back.
Lin shrugged his shoulder to McHale as well.

As people pointed out many times, this team was not coached by McHale but Harden.
Harden demanded the ball, run the play and finished the play in his will almost all of the time.
I think he was spoiled since 13-14. (He's not like that in 12-13)

Harden really has no D and no discipline.
Not to mention a champion.

McHale cannot own his star player.
Harden has been the real coach. (as we saw from the 0.9 sec play)

Videos:

Lin was called by McHale
http://on.nba.com/Rl8S2P

Harden demanded the ball. McHale pissed.
http://on.nba.com/1i6wmmN

This wasn't the first time, I have seen it a few more time like  this.

I don't mind players changing the plays only after he saw a mismatch. But changing the play from get go mean "I don't f*** care what you want, I will do my f** own way!.

Again, how McHale can effectively coach this team. Harden didn't listen. Other players will think like "Oh, you can't control Beard, why you pushing me?"

Some might blame Lin, but he knew very well that Melo won over D'Antoni and Harden vs. McHale won't be any different.

[thejohnnygold]

When you have issues like this, it's the COACH AND the STAR PLAYER.

5:03 left in G6, Lopez was executing his freethrows.

Lin was then called by McHale and instructed how the next play should go.
When the 2nd freethrow was made, Howard inbounded the ball to Lin.
Lin dribbled for one or two, Harden called for the ball.
Lin had no choice but passed the ball to Harden.

McHale saw that, seemed pissed and then just turned his head back.
Lin shrugged his shoulder to McHale as well.

As people pointed out many times, this team was not coached by McHale but Harden.
Harden demanded the ball, run the play and finished the play in his will almost all of the time.
I think he was spoiled since 13-14. (He's not like that in 12-13)

Harden really has no D and no discipline.
Not to mention a champion.

McHale cannot own his star player.
Harden has been the real coach. (as we saw from the 0.9 sec play)

Videos:

Lin was called by McHale
http://on.nba.com/Rl8S2P

Harden demanded the ball. McHale pissed.
http://on.nba.com/1i6wmmN

 

I appreciate your post--it is obvious you put thought and effort into it and provided relative links.  I am a little dubious of being able to assume what is being said by McHale.  That seems to be more of a fill-in-the-blank thing as there is no way to know what was said unless you were there and actually heard them.  It is pure speculation presented as fact and that does not meet the standards around here--it's fine to speculate, but call it what it is, please.

 

It's not like Harden called a clear-out and went full hero-mode.  He passed it in to Dwight, Dwight was immediately double-teamed and Harden got the ball back with an open look at a 3.  I am speculating, but I think it is safe to say Harden has a green light to shoot open threes whenever he wants.  He shot it, we got the rebound and Harden then passed the ball off to Parsons (clip ends).  Personally, I don't see a problem with this--especially since nobody knows what the play call was.

 

Besides, does anyone have a problem with Howard and Harden playing a 2-man game, inside-out that gives us either a 1on 1 with Dwight down low (which he was pretty successful with) or an open look from the perimeter from Harden (which is a good thing as well).  It was a change from our read and react offense to a set 2-man game...something everyone is clamoring for.  It wasn't the pick n roll, but it's something.

 

To the point about Lin having no choice but to pass it to Harden...I disagree.  If McHale called a play then Lin should run that play.  The notion that Harden is some kind of dictator who controls the entire Rockets organization is a difficult idea for me to swallow. If McHale called a play that did not involve Harden then Lin should have run it--plain and simple, and I think he would have if that were the case.

[Cooper]

Clearly time to cut Harden, if he's not won a title by 24 he will never win and has no heart or discipline. 

[timetodienow1234567]

Clearly time to cut Harden, if he's not won a title by 24 he will never win and has no heart or discipline.

Lol. I don't think anybody is calling for that. Some may not be as high on Harden as you. Using sarcasm doesn't help convince others.

[Rockets911]

I appreciate your post--it is obvious you put thought and effort into it and provided relative links. I am a little dubious of being able to assume what is being said by McHale. That seems to be more of a fill-in-the-blank thing as there is no way to know what was said unless you were there and actually heard them. It is pure speculation presented as fact and that does not meet the standards around here--it's fine to speculate, but call it what it is, please.

It's not like Harden called a clear-out and went full hero-mode. He passed it in to Dwight, Dwight was immediately double-teamed and Harden got the ball back with an open look at a 3. I am speculating, but I think it is safe to say Harden has a green light to shoot open threes whenever he wants. He shot it, we got the rebound and Harden then passed the ball off to Parsons (clip ends). Personally, I don't see a problem with this--especially since nobody knows what the play call was.

Besides, does anyone have a problem with Howard and Harden playing a 2-man game, inside-out that gives us either a 1on 1 with Dwight down low (which he was pretty successful with) or an open look from the perimeter from Harden (which is a good thing as well). It was a change from our read and react offense to a set 2-man game...something everyone is clamoring for. It wasn't the pick n roll, but it's something.

To the point about Lin having no choice but to pass it to Harden...I disagree. If McHale called a play then Lin should run that play. The notion that Harden is some kind of dictator who controls the entire Rockets organization is a difficult idea for me to swallow. If McHale called a play that did not involve Harden then Lin should have run it--plain and simple, and I think he would have if that were the case.

The point of the post is not to put blame on anyone. The purpose if it is just pointing out the obvious that there's control issues and lack of discipline regardless who's fault it was. This happened last year when Lin was trying to run a play, Harden did something different and McHale got on Lin for not running the play. Then Lin said something to the likes of "I'm trying to run the F'n play!"

Things like this happen to bad teams with players that have different agendas. Oh guess what!! Damn wow, they actually said that in the exit interviews today. They mentioned "agendas" I guess that's nothing though right? Something to just brush off your shoulders? Sure McHale just have Lin run another play with your so called "star" players running something different and have this happen continuously. Championship teams do this all the time?

Keep thinking it's all sunshine and rainbows with this team. We have more problems then what's showing on the surfice right now. A whole lot! Championship team my A**!

Edited by Rockets911, 05 May 2014 - 07:59 PM.

[bladad]

Honestly, that last shot by Lillard isn't really a single player's fault. It was a breakdown in team defense. No hedging on a shooter. No bump/ hands on him to slow him down. NO ref will call a ticky tack foul on a play with 0.9 seconds left in the game. Just a huge lack of defensive awareness by the Rockets.

 

 

Also, Somebody brought up Chalmers as being a starting PG possibility. I LOVE that idea. He plays good defense in a switch heavy system (meaning he can guard/pester multiple positions), he can dominate the ball and play off the ball equally well, and he's played on a team that's won it all.

 

I'm not as sold on Rondo. He doesn't add any outside shooting which means less space for Harden/Howard/TJones to work. He is a gambler on defense. And from what has been said in the past about his ability to play nice with teammates, I don't want him to ruin the good team chemistry that the Rockets have going at the moment.

 

Needs in the offseason:

Parsons needs to re-engage on the defensive end

Harden needs to learn how to play defense

Lin needs to learn how to play better on ball defense

Terence Jones needs to work on his midrange/long range game

Lin/Harden/D12 need to embrace the pick and roll and use it until the opposition is blue in the face. There will always be a size/quickness/athletic mismatch whenever those three Rockets run PnR.

McHale gets one last shot. He either improves the defense and adheres to PnR or he's out.

[thejohnnygold]

The point of the post is not to put blame on anyone. The purpose if it is just pointing out the obvious that there's control issues and lack of discipline regardless who's fault it was. This happened last year when Lin was trying to run a play, Harden did something different and McHale got on Lin for not running the play. Then Lin said something to the likes of "I'm trying to run the F'n play!"

Things like this happen to bad teams with players that have different agendas. Oh guess what!! Damn wow, they actually said that in the exit interviews today. They mentioned "agendas" I guess that's nothing though right? Something to just brush off your shoulders? Sure McHale just have Lin run another play with your so called "star" players running something different and have this happen continuously. Championship teams do this all the time?

Keep thinking it's all sunshine and rainbows with this team. We have more problems then what's showing on the surfice right now. A whole lot! Championship team my A**!

 

OK, Lin's interview not much said...a few amusing moments, but not much insight.

 

Parsons' interview was good and he mentioned "hidden agendas"....playing together...being on the same page...

 

Howard's interview went further into that...he didn't mention "agendas", but having everyone on the same page was mentioned a lot.  Howard went on to explain that "the same page" meant everyone was there for one reason and that reason was to win.  He also made it clear that if anyone wasn't on that page they weren't welcome on the team.  He stated he would be taking an active role in enforcing this--"It's on me", he said.  I liked it.  Parsons is on board.  Howard is on board.  I have no doubt Beverley and Lin are on board.

 

For everyone who wants accountability, I say Damian Lillard just created a monster.

 

(I'm listening to them all as I go here...)

 

Harden's interview doesn't say much until near the end....he talks about being on the same page...and actually elaborates some.  He basically alluded to all the things we have talked about...throughout the season and I think we can infer that Omer's situation, trade rumors, selfishness from multiple players in multiple forms sprang up, getting down due to a shooting slump, and other things as well--he definitely included himself in that group and said he is going to work hard on leading by example and helping Dwight lead the team towards the goal of keeping everyone focused on the big goal.

 

Bev was asked point blank about hidden agendas and said he hadn't heard anything about any hidden agendas (the reporter said that Jeremy mentioned it, but I didn't hear that in his recording...)...probably just deflecting the question since others obviously had acknowledged it.  I did love how he responded, near the end, when asked about the last play of the Portland game. 

 

The reporter asks, "what do you think about that final play..."

 

"Nuthin", is all Bev says.

 

The reporter then asks, "Did you execute what you wanted to coming out of the timeout?"

 

"Yes we did.  He made a tough fade away shot"

 

Bev did not look like he enjoyed his interview at all   I listened to Garcia and Canaan as well....they didn't say much.

 

McHale did not have an interview (at least that was posted at NBA.com)

 

So now that's out of the way...let's get talking

 

You claim the point of your original post was not to put blame on anyone.  If that's true, you have a strange way of stating it.  You began that post with this line:

 

"When you have issues like this, it's the COACH AND the STAR PLAYER."

 

I interpret that as pretty much putting the blame squarely on them.  As for the rest of your post quoted above....I recall that incident from last season...I'm not concerned with that ancient history and if I recall correctly, there was quite a bit of conjecture and supposition surrounding that alleged event.  Again, it doesn't matter this far removed.

 

I don't think it's sunshine and rainbows.  I see that things need improvement.  I just take a different view on how things should progress from this point.  I think we can win with these players and this coach.  I think they will all improve.  I think getting our assistant coach position filled will be huge.  I think the players, more than anything, will help themselves.  I think they should frame a picture of Lillard's winning shot and hang it in the locker room...right next to a dart board with that smug face of his plastered on it

 

I also think the players like McHale and all have his back....everyone said as much in the interviews (when asked)--they also said they like the freedom they have in the offense.  Some fans may not like it, but the guys on the court do.  I think there is a better chance that we go into next season with the same group of guys (more or less) than trading for Carmelo.  (I've made my peace with the Carmelo trade--if it happens I am on board).

 

What I don't think is that we have problems that can only be fixed by ousting coaches and players.  I don't think we have a toxic locker room.  I don't think we have as small of a window as many do.  I don't think everything can be blamed on one player, one play, or the coach.  If that makes me blissfully ignorant then so be it--sunshine and rainbows it is

 

[thenit]

Clearly time to cut Harden, if he's not won a title by 24 he will never win and has no heart or discipline. 

 

People needs to stop making excuses for our best player. Look at Lillard, who is accountable both offensively and defensively. He is not the best defender, actually he is below average IMO, but you can never argue that he slacks off on plays defensively, he will do his best and he is guarding all these elite PGs in the West. He leads by example, you look at our superstar, he makes poor decisions defensively and doesn't try. I forgot which game it was it was a close game we made a FT and he just slowly backs off not even noticing his man running down the floor for an easy layup.

 

http://grantland.com...ic-first-round/ its in the harden section

 

Plays like that irks me, and I can live with missed shots or great plays by the opposing team, but when you do things like that it just deflates the team. Also why would Harden call off Bev on Lillard on last play in game 6?

 

I don't think Harden is a dictator, but we need a coach who could call our his players privately and the players would listen. I still don't think coaches are telling him to rest on D especially when we are in the playoffs. What is he saving his energy for? For an adventure summer vacation?

There is no other player in the league with that much talent who just exert that little energy on D. I don't want to trade Harden but just play to his potential, maybe I just have higher demands that others.

[thenit]

@JG

 

The blame does fall more on the star players in team sports because they have a bigger impact on the floor than role players. Its the same when we win games, who gets the credit? We would praise the heroics of the star or the coach's play calling etc. That's why people talk about Shaq got X and Kobe got X rings etc. But no one ever mentioned role players like Horry he got 7 more than Jordan, LBJ, Kobe, Wade etc.

 

All I'm saying is that when the team wins championships usually most of the credit goes to the star player and the coach. I never thought Phil Jackson was such a great coach, he just had 2 out the 5 greatest players of all time with other stars complimenting them. But somehow Phil is untouchable in regards of his resume. So they do get the most blame but also the most credit so it comes with the territory of fan reviews.

[Cooper]

People needs to stop making excuses for our best player. Look at Lillard, who is accountable both offensively and defensively. He is not the best defender, actually he is below average IMO, but you can never argue that he slacks off on plays defensively, he will do his best and he is guarding all these elite PGs in the West. He leads by example, you look at our superstar, he makes poor decisions defensively and doesn't try. I forgot which game it was it was a close game we made a FT and he just slowly backs off not even noticing his man running down the floor for an easy layup.

 

http://grantland.com...ic-first-round/ its in the harden section

 

Plays like that irks me, and I can live with missed shots or great plays by the opposing team, but when you do things like that it just deflates the team. Also why would Harden call off Bev on Lillard on last play in game 6?

 

I don't think Harden is a dictator, but we need a coach who could call our his players privately and the players would listen. I still don't think coaches are telling him to rest on D especially when we are in the playoffs. What is he saving his energy for? For an adventure summer vacation?

There is no other player in the league with that much talent who just exert that little energy on D. I don't want to trade Harden but just play to his potential, maybe I just have higher demands that others.

I think for the most part people would like Harden to play with the passion Lillard or someone like Lebron or Chris Paul but he either isn't that guy or needs someone to bring that guy out of him, whether that be another player or perhaps a coach.

[thejohnnygold]

@JG

 

The blame does fall more on the star players in team sports because they have a bigger impact on the floor than role players. Its the same when we win games, who gets the credit? We would praise the heroics of the star or the coach's play calling etc. That's why people talk about Shaq got X and Kobe got X rings etc. But no one ever mentioned role players like Horry he got 7 more than Jordan, LBJ, Kobe, Wade etc.

 

All I'm saying is that when the team wins championships usually most of the credit goes to the star player and the coach. I never thought Phil Jackson was such a great coach, he just had 2 out the 5 greatest players of all time with other stars complimenting them. But somehow Phil is untouchable in regards of his resume. So they do get the most blame but also the most credit so it comes with the territory of fan reviews.

 

I agree with this.  I was responding to Rockets911's post where he said he wasn't blaming anyone...I say he was.  It's fine--I never said anything about that initially--my original point is he doesn't know what was said or what play was called anymore than the rest of us do.

[thejohnnygold]

Also, regarding the idea that coaches are telling him to rest on D....I don't think that is really it.  As much as they talked about conditioning and improving their bodies in their exit interviews maybe it was a bigger issue than I thought it could be.

 

My stance has long been that Morey has got some numbers that essentially show a team is better served keeping their star out of foul trouble and on the court than having him go hard at a guy on defense, picking up ticky-tack fouls, and having to sit.  I have posted numbers multiple times, from multiple angles about how/why this makes sense.  He is not good at defending without fouling (posted evidence of this before)...so what do you do?  I think Morey decided it was better to have him play slacker defense and be on the court.  Maybe they can work on his techniques in the off season, but I have to agree--it hurts us more having him sit than giving up some shots to role players.

 

Further, it has been shown time and again that despite how ugly his defense is, the net production is fine both in total team defense while he is on the court and in net +/- when he plays.  So those who claim he gives up as much as he contributes are ignoring the facts.

[thenit]

Maybe the net effect it positive but if he could shave off 1-2 points a game on D that could have been a better seed and round 2. There are small margins in a playoffs series and he was never in foul trouble except for 1 game, so a little more aggression would do wonders and effort.

 

I think you might be on to something that maybe its more conditioning rather than not wanting too. He just priorities offense over D because its more fun and you get more credit. Just look at Parsons attitude change from year 1 to today.

[timetodienow1234567]

How much of that is Harden placed on the offensively challenged wing and playing in front of Howard?

Edited by timetodienow1234567, 05 May 2014 - 10:31 PM.

[thejohnnygold]

Guys, what.....gah.....

 

Surely playing in front of elite defenders helps.  I was talking about team net statistics--it's inherent in the statement.  You want to continue to diminish Harden just come out and say it.  Nobody is claiming he is a good defender here so I don't get what the fight is for.  My contention is that he's not a prima donna who thinks he's too good for defense.  Somebody has to guard the Tony Allens of the world...why not protect your player from the extra workload and potential fouls?  This isn't some new idea that has never existed before.

 

Sure, Harden could have made a play that might have shaved two points off the final score....but typically at the end of games he was more willing to do so.  He saves his fouls.  He has to save at least 2 for offensive charges every game.  That leaves him 4 for defense in 35-40 minutes of playing time.  If he bodies up every time an opponent attacks him--and they will if they think they can rack up some fouls and get him on the bench...if he does, he will be in foul trouble all the time.  He's not good at defense so having him try, and rack up fouls is playing into the opponents' hands.  I contend that for every extra game we win with Harden's "good defense" we would lose twice as many not having his very good offense.  It's a macro issue being analyzed on a per play basis.....missing the forest for the trees. 

 

Yup, Harden has 11 minutes worth of Youtube glory....and it was so terrible we ended up with the 4th best record in the league, a +4.6 point differential (very good), and a slew of other good numbers.  Think about this--Harden D's up, they draw the foul and go to the line for the most efficient play in basketball (after a dunk)--free throws.  Or, Harden funnels his guy to Dwight/Omer, goes for a steal, and lets them try to earn their two points over one of the elite defenders in the league.  The longer we debate this issue the more I see it as a positive thing--despite the oddity of it.

 

It's a simple equation.  Look up the numbers.  We are better with him on the floor--by a lot.  Thus, the more time he is on the floor the better off we are.

 

As far as the conditioning thing goes...I am not a proponent of this--it is something that has been beaten to death around here and I am just now acknowledging it may have some validity after hearing almost every player talk about getting their bodies better over the Summer (not just from injury).  Maybe it's just lip service and that's what you say in exit interviews....or maybe they all feel like their conditioning was lacking...only they actually know.

 

Until Harden can learn to defend effectively without fouling I think we are stuck watching his matador defense.  The good news:  that's not why we lost the series against Portland.  The bad news: It's awful to watch if you're expecting him to look like Francisco Garcia vs. Kevin Durant.

[Richards]

@JG
When did Morey tell Harden to relax on defense? Any links to the post/recording/etc?

[thejohnnygold]

@JG
When did Morey tell Harden to relax on defense? Any links to the post/recording/etc?

 

As far as I know he hasn't.  This has been something I have speculated on for quite a while as an alternative to the arguments that he is a lazy prima donna.  I have no proof.  Just a guess.  I never said it was fact or presented it as such.  I just think it is more likely as I don't think Harden gets the preferential treatment from his teammates, coaches, etc. as many others do.