156 replies to this topic

[Rahat Huq]

The numbers I have show that Atlanta cannot plausibly offer both of them the full max - but I could be wrong on that.  (Those scoop pieces often have wrong cap info b/c it's just fed from agents regardless of whether it can work.)

 

If I were the Clippers, I'd trade Griffin for Howard without batting an eye, especially if it means even risking losing Paul altogether.  

 

And as I wrote in my article, it's just not plausible for this team-up to happen in Houston barring the MIRACULOUS.  

[Rahat Huq]

I wonder if they're using Atlanta as a bluff to get one of the teams to sign&trade them to Houston?  It could only work of course if the teams are willing to take back our package, which I don't think they would.  But I wonder if that's the plan.

[Red94]

New post: An exploration of the scenario involving both Chris Paul and Dwight Howard: Part 2
By: rahat huq

Yesterday I explained that because of the cap complexities, it would be extremely difficult for the Houston Rockets to acquire both Chris Paul and Dwight Howard.  Today, ESPN.com is reporting that Howard and Paul have been in constant contact about teaming up.  The article states that while neither player is particularly fond of the idea of playing for the Hawks, Howard's hometown, they would consider the prospect given that the Hawks have the money to sign both players outright.  Reportedly, the preference would be to join forces with the Clippers.

The report wreaks of a leak from the Paul camp in hopes of forcing L.A.'s hand into trading Griffin for Howard.  Without a viable threat, the Clippers could simply just call Paul's bluff, knowing that he has no better alternatives than simply staying put.  Enter the Hawks.

While they'd still have Horford, Atlanta wouldn't even be able to offer the tax difference provided by the Texas teams which even made the idea of leaving palatable in the first place.  So you mean to tell me that they're going to take less money to a city they don't want to be in to play on a team with 9 other guys straight from the NBDL?  It doesn't seem credible.

My hunch is that Paul wants the Clippers to deal Griffin for Howard, the former of whom the Clippers insist is untouchable.  He has to be able to threaten that if they don't play ball, they'll just team up elsewhere.

If I'm the Clippers, I deal Griffin.  While he's younger, I don't subscribe to the notion of always preferring youth.  That can get you into problems, especially when the alternative is just 28.  You only have so many windows of opportunity so it would be foolish to pass one like this up.

Where does this leave Houston?  As I explained yesterday, while it can be done, it would be incredibly to pull off signing both of these guys.  My hunch again--based on nothing but my own opinion--is that the Paul camp sees Howard as its ticket.  Paul can't risk losing Howard to Houston which is pretty much a ready-made situation for the latter.

As I explained in Part 1, I just can't see either of the L.A. teams agreeing to a sign&trade.  Regardless of what you think about Omer Asik and Jeremy Lin, I think the Lakers especially would prefer to just start clean.  If the two superstars really are intent on playing together, they could really make things easier and just agree to small paycuts.  That would make it a bit easier for Daryl Morey to move the necessary parts in separate deals to be able to sign the players outright.  (Even then, I still don't see a team absorbing Jeremy Lin's contract for free.  Maybe I'm undervaluing him, but if I had the equivalent of $8.3million of cap space (whether it be through a TPE, space, or expiring contracts, I can think of at least 3o ways I'd rather use it than on trading for Jeremy Lin.  That's just me though.)

Ultimately, I don't think the two stars will be able to pair up but it makes for interesting discussion.

[Richards]

Another west team will not help Rockets to make better. They won't take Lin (or Asik) if you think they are mediocre. We can get either one or they will team up in Atlanta. 

[rockets best fan]

been giving this duel signing some thought. my thinking was how could the rockets pull this off.........in order to be set to pursue both you must have some realistic plan that sounds at least possible too acquire both if they do indeed say yes................and then it hit me. the rockets have a route to this type of maneuver

 

the rockets must fill 12 roster spots. they must strip the team down some via releasing Garcia(already done) releasing both brooks and delfino.....we pretty much expect this.....also cut Anderson and ohlbrecth.........that leaves them with

asik, lin, harden,parsons,white,robinson,t-jones, d-mo,g-smith,beverly.......10 players

 

D-12 max salary is 20.5 mil...........cp3 max is 18.7 mil.

 

here's how we get them

we trade asik ,lin white and t-rob......not a huge task. asik is the jewel among the group, but all can be moved. we can trade lin and t-rob to Utah for draft picks.......them knowing we need a trade will probably cut down the return, but they clearly need a PG and might want lin for a short term fix. trade asik and white + 2 mil to philly. they will probably move on from Bynum and will need a center.......knowing sam hinkie they would jump all over this deal. now if that don't work move all four to philly along with our 2015 and 2017 first rounders.....another deal I'm sure hinkie would jump all over. .........other trades are possible I'm just laying out the possibility. these players are moveable.........now the money

 

Howard = 20.500.000

parsons=      927.000

harden =   13.669.000

t-jones =    1.552.000

d-mo   =     1.443.000

g-smith=       885.000

Beverly=       789.000

cp3     =   18.700.000

4 cap holes= 2mil

 

grand total 60.565.000   depending on where the cap lands makes the next step necessary..........if both D-12 and cp3 take a 800.000 pay cut from their max it gives the rockets 1.6 mil they can remove in salary. this amount still pays both player far more than they can make in any other situation both on 4 year deals..............with the discounts figured in that leaves the rockets at just below 59 mil in salary.

 

now the salary cap this year was 58 mil. it only needs to rise 1 mil for this plan not totally out of the question

 

now for rebuilding the team the rockets have only 8 players and need 12.......we can bring Garcia back at the room exemption for 2.6......all others must be minimum salaried players both Anderson and ohlbrecth fall into this area because that's what we pay them now.....so bring both back giving us 11 players......our #34 draft pick won't count against the cap until he is signed so save this for last

 

we would then have a team that looks like this

D-12

Harden

CP3

Parsons

T-Jones

D-Mo

G-Smith

Beverly

Anderson

Ohlbretch

Garcia

#34 draft pick

[manmythlegend]

Paul and Howard with the Clips is probably the most plausible of any of the scenarios out there. While a Clips-Lakers trade seems hard to envision on the surface, I can see Griffin requesting a "move" to the Lakers, especially in light of the reported frosty relationship between himself and Paul.

It's a win-win for both teams: Griffin gets to play for the marquee franchise in the NBA without having to move out of his own home. The Lakers get a young, bankable superstar PF who would thrive in D'Antoni's system (think Phoenix-version Amar'e) and is also 4 years younger than Howard. The Clips get to keep Paul, & will form a dynamic small-big combo with Howard (that is, until either Paul's knee or Howard's back goes out first).

I don't think Atlanta is a market either of them want to play in, & seismic shifts in the roster would have to occur in order for both Paul and Howard to end up in Houston.

[rockets best fan]

the clippers and lakers can't do a sign and trade without a 3rd team

[manmythlegend]

the clippers and lakers can't do a sign and trade without a 3rd team

Can you provide a source for this? I've googled around a couple of the links and none mention a 3rd team needing to be involved.

[rockets best fan]

Can you provide a source for this? I've googled around a couple of the links and none mention a 3rd team needing to be involved.

this is why a 3rd team must be involved

1. the Lakers are over the luxury tax line and the luxury tax apron even before resigning Howard. the new CBA says a team can not do a sign and trade unless if after the trade is complete the team has reduced it's payroll to a level under the luxury tax apron. the Lakers have 78 mil without D-12 on the books....the luxury tax apron is 75 mil

2. the new CBA also says that the team receiving the incoming signed player also must be under the apron at the conclusion of the trade. once they sign cp3 the clippers will be close to the apron themselves so they will not be able to accept salary from the Lakers because it would put them over the tax apron. they would have to move 20 mil dollars from their payroll to accept D-12 in a trade, but the Lakers will not be in position to receive it

go here for all salary cap data http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

[Mason Khamvilay]

RBF read the rules wrong. A team over the apron can't receive a player via sign and trade, but that doesn't mean they can't receive players in the sign and trade. 

 

So for example, the Lakers can't receive Chris Paul in a sign and trade (if they're still over the apron after the trade), but they can receive Blake Griffin + fillers (assuming all those players already have contracts so they are not being SIGNED and traded, they're just being traded) while signing and trading Dwight Howard away.

Edited by 2016Champions, 14 June 2013 - 10:09 PM.

[manmythlegend]

I'm no salary cap whiz so I will not get in too deep of a discussion. But what if the Lakers amnesty Pau Gasol's $19 million salary? They then sign D12 and subsequently trade him to the Clips in return for Griffin and future HoFer Bledsoe, who have a combined salary of $19 million next season.

Would it work then?

[rockets best fan]

RBF read the rules wrong. A team over the apron can't receive a player via sign and trade, but that doesn't mean they can't receive players in the sign and trade. 

 

So for example, the Lakers can't receive Chris Paul in a sign and trade, but they can receive Blake Griffin + fillers while signing and trading Dwight Howard away.

NO I'm correct. a team can't receive any players at all if it will leave them over the luxury tax apron period....newly signed or otherwise maybe you better recheck the rules if you don't believe it

[rockets best fan]

I'm no salary cap whiz so I will not get in too deep of a discussion. But what if the Lakers amnesty Pau Gasol's $19 million salary? They then sign D12 and subsequently trade him to the Clips in return for Griffin and future HoFer Bledsoe, who have a combined salary of $19 million next season.

Would it work then?

if the Lakers amnesty gasol or kobe then the trade becomes possible

[manmythlegend]

Well if the Lakers and Clips wanted to make this happen, then they could without a 3rd team. Amnestying Gasol would be a relatively small price to pay to secure an All Star 24-yr old PF. I'm sure they would rather trade Gasol but his value isn't commensurate with his contract.

Edited by manmythlegend, 14 June 2013 - 09:25 PM.

[rockets best fan]

Well if the Lakers and Clips wanted to make this happen, then they could without a 3rd team. Amnestying Gasol would be a relatively small price to pay to secure an All Star 24-yr old PF. I'm sure they would rather trade Gasol but his value isn't commensurate with his contract.

problem is they have a very short window in which they can use the amnesty. so a quick decision is necessary. besides I doubt them wanting to help build a super team down the hall from them

[manmythlegend]

problem is they have a very short window in which they can use the amnesty. so a quick decision is necessary. besides I doubt them wanting to help build a super team down the hall from them

I'm sure the Lakers brass are working on every possible scenario in regards to Howard, so any decision made will have been given a considerable amount of thought by the time one has to be made.

While they wouldn't necessarily want to build a superteam across the hall, there is a chance that Howard will refuse to play with Kobe. If you were the Lakers and knew that Howard wants to leave, you could let him walk to Houston for nothing in return (or get Asik and Lin in a sign and trade scenario), or you can trade him to your crosstown rival in exchange for Blake Griffin.

I'd take Griffin 10 out of 10 times and give the Clippers their one season of Western Conference semifinals glory, all the while rebuilding toward the 2014 season.

[Mason Khamvilay]

Larry Coon ‏@LarryCoon18h

Restriction is against RECEIVING a S&T guy. MT @Wrldwidefantasy Can lakers use the S&T with Dwight considering they're so far over the cap?

[rockets best fan]

Larry Coon ‏@LarryCoon18h

Restriction is against RECEIVING a S&T guy. MT @Wrldwidefantasy Can lakers use the S&T with Dwight considering they're so far over the cap?

and this proves what?

[rockets best fan]

2016

I already told you the trade was possible....however the conditions under which it is possible are near impossible. neither team can be over the luxury tax apron upon the completion of the trade. between these 2 teams that's hard to do

[Mason Khamvilay]

It clarifies the rule you read. Keep in mind that the rule you read was also written by Larry Coon...