105 replies to this topic

[Mason Khamvilay]

lol yes I can see how putting trust in Dwight's verbal promises sounds like a bad idea, I won't bother arguing against that, I'm just going to agree. We shouldn't trade Asik until Dwight is in a Rockets uniform.  

[rocketrick]

I say we keep Asik, I understand the quandary of tying up so much money at one position. But, considering that money is for locking in two of the best at that position in the league, there also lies some value in the fact that two of the best centers in the league are NOT on any other team. I basically take on RollingWave's POV in that keeping a quality center on the floor for an entire game is a near impossibility for most teams. The drop off between quality of play between Asik and G.Smith was HUGE, and if we were to deal Asik, that same gap would exist with D12 at the position and the gain from signing D12 wouldn't be as big. Harken back to the days of how deadly the Yao/Deke combo was down low, we OWNED the paint... OWNED it for entire games. D12/Asik would be even more deadly. Because we had a quality backup, we were still competitive when Yao went down. If it doesn't work out after a year, then shop Asik, his value certainly won't decrease, but it's worth a stab.

However, the combo of Yao Ming and Mutombo cost to the Rockets cap space did not even come close to approaching what would happen to the Rockets cap situation with D12 making about $20 million per and Asik the most expensive backup center of all-time in the history of the NBA making $8.5 million per. Top that off with the fact there is a huge dearth of powerful big men in the NBA these days.

By the way, just exactly how many playoff series did the Rockets win with the Yao Ming/Dikembo Mutombo combination at the 5? Not NBA Championships mind you, just simple playoff series?

[Steven]

However, the combo of Yao Ming and Mutombo cost to the Rockets cap space did not even come close to approaching what would happen to the Rockets cap situation with D12 making about $20 million per and Asik the most expensive backup center of all-time in the history of the NBA making $8.5 million per. Top that off with the fact there is a huge dearth of powerful big men in the NBA these days.

By the way, just exactly how many playoff series did the Rockets win with the Yao Ming/Dikembo Mutombo combination at the 5? Not NBA Championships mind you, just simple playoff series?

Actually, Javelle Magee was the backup for the Nuggets this year with a 4 yr $40M contract. At that price Asik is a steal.

[Mason Khamvilay]

I think if they would get rid of McGee's contract if they could. 

[manmythlegend]

Actually, Javelle Magee was the backup for the Nuggets this year with a 4 yr $40M contract. At that price Asik is a steal.

 

The guy starting ahead of Magee (Koufos) is "only" making $3 million. Kind of a big difference from the $20+ million Howard will make.

 

Agree though that McGee's contract is horrific and Asik, in any scenario, is a steal at his cap number.

[RollingWave]

However, the combo of Yao Ming and Mutombo cost to the Rockets cap space did not even come close to approaching what would happen to the Rockets cap situation with D12 making about $20 million per and Asik the most expensive backup center of all-time in the history of the NBA making $8.5 million per. Top that off with the fact there is a huge dearth of powerful big men in the NBA these days.

By the way, just exactly how many playoff series did the Rockets win with the Yao Ming/Dikembo Mutombo combination at the 5? Not NBA Championships mind you, just simple playoff series?

That's bulllock, Mutomobo made 1 year of 4M and a bunch of 1-2 M on the Rockets, if we're going by production per dollar, he was pretty much the best player for the Rockets during quite a few season he was on the team, he was probably the single reason why the team was even in the playoffs in 06-07

[Richards]

I still doubt paying max money for Howard. Team like Lakers can go well over cap cause they have huge TV deal and money isn't issue for them.

For us, we can't have good role players after paying max to D12. Howard will not sign for discount like LBJ did. Parsons will be demanding big money soon. You can't build championship team overnight. Adding D12 only make us a contenders, not a favorite. Singing somebody like Smith and good role players might be a better way to go.

[thejohnnygold]

No matter how you twist it, Dwight's numbers were quite impressive the last 30 games of the season and I don't think he was even 100% yet. Call me crazy, but I wouldn't be shocked if a fully repaired Dwight in the Rockets system puts up 23 and 15. Keep in mind he ranked 9th at pick and roll finishing while Harden ranked 5th on pick and roll operating--there's going to be a whole new meaning to "Dwightmare". 

 

As for Jones, I have very little question about his defense. It's really incredible how well he moves for a guy who weights 252 lbs. My only question is whether or not he will make his man pay for doubling Dwight down low, otherwise he might find himself in a timeshare with a highly skilled 7 footer form Lithuania. 

 

I'm not totally sold on Jones' defense--yet.  I hope it's as good as you believe.

 

As for the new meaning of "Dwightmare"--100% agree with this.  I think that 23 point average might be low...

[manmythlegend]

I'm not totally sold on Jones' defense--yet.  I hope it's as good as you believe.

 

As for the new meaning of "Dwightmare"--100% agree with this.  I think that 23 point average might be low...

 

23 and 15 would match Howard's peak production in Orlando (both obtained in separate seasons).  

 

The Rockets system will change if Howard signs. It will slow down to get him more touches in the post. Best case scenario he does what he did in Orlando when he was featured offensively; 21-13.  If he does any better scoring wise, it's because he will dramatically improve his free throw shooting; I'm not banking on that to happen.

[Cooper]

I still doubt paying max money for Howard. Team like Lakers can go well over cap cause they have huge TV deal and money isn't issue for them.
For us, we can't have good role players after paying max to D12. Howard will not sign for discount like LBJ did. Parsons will be demanding big money soon. You can't build championship team overnight. Adding D12 only make us a contenders, not a favorite. Singing somebody like Smith and good role players might be a better way to go.

Stars win playoff games and its a lot easier to get role players than stars. If Howard wants to be here that's the way to go. The only way we'd be favorites by adding one player is if that guy was lebron. You can't look at an addition that way.

[rocketrick]

That's bulllock, Mutomobo made 1 year of 4M and a bunch of 1-2 M on the Rockets, if we're going by production per dollar, he was pretty much the best player for the Rockets during quite a few season he was on the team, he was probably the single reason why the team was even in the playoffs in 06-07

Hey RollingWave, you might want to re-read my post. My point was that Mutombo and Yao Ming did not cost the Rockets nearly as much as the combination of D12 and Asik will cost the Rockets. Remember, there is going to be about a $58 million cap again for next season. Do you really want the Rockets to spend over $28 million of that on just 2 players that play the same position, D-12 and Asik? As I stated before, Asik would become the all-time highest paid backup center in NBA History if this were to occur. There will be times D-12 and Asik can play together but in my opinion, most of the matchups will not allow the Rockets to have both on the floor. Otherwise, one of them is going to be chasing somebody out on the 3 point line. That won't be very pretty to watch. 

[thejohnnygold]

Hey RollingWave, you might want to re-read my post. My point was that Mutombo and Yao Ming did not cost the Rockets nearly as much as the combination of D12 and Asik will cost the Rockets. Remember, there is going to be about a $58 million cap again for next season. Do you really want the Rockets to spend over $28 million of that on just 2 players that play the same position, D-12 and Asik? As I stated before, Asik would become the all-time highest paid backup center in NBA History if this were to occur. There will be times D-12 and Asik can play together but in my opinion, most of the matchups will not allow the Rockets to have both on the floor. Otherwise, one of them is going to be chasing somebody out on the 3 point line. That won't be very pretty to watch. 

Your point is well made,  but consider this...you're basically talking about the Kevin Loves and Ryan Andersons of the world...3 pt. shooting 4's.  On the other end of the floor can either of those two legitimately stop Dwight in the post?  Once they start accumulating fouls their three point shooting goes to the bench.  No longer a problem.  If they choose not to foul we can just post up Howard and let him get dunks and hooks and lay-ups all night long.

 

What is more likely to happen?  Kevin Love shoots 40% from three making 6-15 or Dwight goes 12-20 eating Love's lunch in the post while getting him in foul trouble and exhausting Love's energy trying to defend him?  I know what I'd bet on.

 

What's that?  The defense can just switch and put Love on Asik and Pekovic (or whoever) on Howard.  Well then, a simple little baseline screen opens that up (I can't find the video)--basically, Asik sets a back screen behind Pekovic (who is behind Howard on the right block awaiting an entry pass from the outside).  Howard rolls around Asik (who screens Pekovic) as the ball is swung to the other side.  Love must now cover Howard as the entry pass comes in quickly.  Likely scenario is Pekovic and Love double Howard which is why the man at the top of the key should have already started cutting to the basket to catch the pass from the now doubled Howard and can easily catch and finish with both low post defenders out of position.  If they shade towards the cutter then Asik is still standing all alone on the other side of the basket ready to clean up the Dwight miss or catch a pass from Dwight and dunk.  (Another possibility is D-MO is finally NBA ready and we can use him to keep the defense honest as Kevin Love isn't stopping him in the post either--too long and too quick).

 

In short, I think our strengths will dictate the action--not the other way around.

[rocketrick]

Your point is well made,  but consider this...you're basically talking about the Kevin Loves and Ryan Andersons of the world...3 pt. shooting 4's.  On the other end of the floor can either of those two legitimately stop Dwight in the post?  Once they start accumulating fouls their three point shooting goes to the bench.  No longer a problem.  If they choose not to foul we can just post up Howard and let him get dunks and hooks and lay-ups all night long.

 

What is more likely to happen?  Kevin Love shoots 40% from three making 6-15 or Dwight goes 12-20 eating Love's lunch in the post while getting him in foul trouble and exhausting Love's energy trying to defend him?  I know what I'd bet on.

 

What's that?  The defense can just switch and put Love on Asik and Pekovic (or whoever) on Howard.  Well then, a simple little baseline screen opens that up (I can't find the video)--basically, Asik sets a back screen behind Pekovic (who is behind Howard on the right block awaiting an entry pass from the outside).  Howard rolls around Asik (who screens Pekovic) as the ball is swung to the other side.  Love must now cover Howard as the entry pass comes in quickly.  Likely scenario is Pekovic and Love double Howard which is why the man at the top of the key should have already started cutting to the basket to catch the pass from the now doubled Howard and can easily catch and finish with both low post defenders out of position.  If they shade towards the cutter then Asik is still standing all alone on the other side of the basket ready to clean up the Dwight miss or catch a pass from Dwight and dunk.  (Another possibility is D-MO is finally NBA ready and we can use him to keep the defense honest as Kevin Love isn't stopping him in the post either--too long and too quick).

 

In short, I think our strengths will dictate the action--not the other way around.

If you're right, then why are the teams with the powerful front lines out of the playoffs? No Grizzlies (were swept by the Spurs), no Nuggets, no Nets, no Knicks, no Clippers, no Jazz I could keep going if you like. All of these teams rely on the play of their front lines. The Knicks have an excuse since Stoudemire missed most of the season. But what is everyone else's excuse?

 

 If the Rockets are playing both Asik and Howard, the opposing team is just going to sag and defend the paint. So basically, that rules out Harden or Lin or Parsons driving to the hole. The Rockets will be forced in most cases to shoot from the outside. If they are hitting their shots, the opposing team can then simply change their strategy and go to Hack a Howard or Hack Asik to get back into the game and change the flow of the game. You also seem to forget that teams setting screens are trying to force a mismatch or create an open outside shot. So when Asik and Howard are setting their screens, it's not like either are going to be able to pick and pop. So the opposing teams should simply defend the pick and roll and screen setting by staying underneath the screens thus forcing the Rockets into more outside jump shots.

[thejohnnygold]

If you're right, then why are the teams with the powerful front lines out of the playoffs? No Grizzlies (were swept by the Spurs), no Nuggets, no Nets, no Knicks, no Clippers, no Jazz I could keep going if you like. All of these teams rely on the play of their front lines. The Knicks have an excuse since Stoudemire missed most of the season. But what is everyone else's excuse?

 

 If the Rockets are playing both Asik and Howard, the opposing team is just going to sag and defend the paint. So basically, that rules out Harden or Lin or Parsons driving to the hole. The Rockets will be forced in most cases to shoot from the outside. If they are hitting their shots, the opposing team can then simply change their strategy and go to Hack a Howard or Hack Asik to get back into the game and change the flow of the game. You also seem to forget that teams setting screens are trying to force a mismatch or create an open outside shot. So when Asik and Howard are setting their screens, it's not like either are going to be able to pick and pop. So the opposing teams should simply defend the pick and roll and screen setting by staying underneath the screens thus forcing the Rockets into more outside jump shots.

 

The teams with powerful front lines are out of the playoffs because that's how it works--only one team can ultimately win.  I still contend the Spurs have a powerful front line with Duncan and Splitter (who is under-rated) and are still in the playoffs.  Most of those teams you listed were ousted by teams with powerful front lines--so what does that say?  I know you know it's about match-ups and stars.  The Spurs can match up with any style and have stars.  The Heat have THE star in Lebron and can trump anything (except maybe the Spurs).

 

Hack-a Howard/Asik can't work for an entire game--not enough fouls to give.  I wish I could find the video...the screens I'm talking about happen underneath the basket--away from the ball--to force a switch and get Howard a mis-match in the post.  Our offense is largely predicated on open threes so that sounds like a good thing having the defense sag down.

 

It has also been detailed that a high/low with the big men could easily work.  With Asik setting a high screen and roll with Harden/Lin (not unlike what we do now; however, with the added wrinkle of being able to have Howard rolling in from various angles to add more pressure to the defense...they are going to miss one of the three guys rolling to the basket, plus that gives us better rebounding and more easy putbacks.  It isn't often done because most teams either do not have the personnel or have a coach with a different offensive philosophy.

[Mason Khamvilay]

Powerful front lines work when both (or at least one) big men are skilled (especially in passing and/or shooting). I wouldn't exactly call a Dwight/Asik front-line skilled.. can't stress this enough. 

[timetodienow1234567]

Best big men duos in no particular order
Duncan/Admiral
Sampson/Hakeem
Unseld/Hayes

[thejohnnygold]

Sooooo, the Rockets were the 6th best team in offensive efficiency this year while sporting a Center with no skills and a rotation of PF's with little to no skills on either end of the court (we did just as well on offense after we shipped out Patterson and Morris if memory serves but got worse on defense).  And what you're telling me is that if we replace Greg Smith/D-MO/Jones with Dwight Howard we won't be better.....OK, I guess that makes sense.

[Cooper]

An asik Howard front line would be much more comparable to say kofous faried or griffen Jordan, than a Duncan splitter or gasol randolf one. Niether Blake/Jordan or koufous/faried are necessarily good shooters or passers. Whereas Duncan and gasol are quite good in both categories and can make plays in the high post and mid range area that niether asik or Howard have shown they can.

[Mason Khamvilay]

^Cooper gets it. 

 

A front line consists of two players, not one. To say Houston had a skill-less front line this season would be foolish, because for about 90% of the time Asik was on the floor there was a PF (or Delfino) next to him who can shoot 3's.

 

And what you're telling me is that if we replace Greg Smith/D-MO/Jones with Dwight Howard we won't be better

Courtroom tactics have no place in friendly discussions..

[rocketrick]

Sooooo, the Rockets were the 6th best team in offensive efficiency this year while sporting a Center with no skills and a rotation of PF's with little to no skills on either end of the court (we did just as well on offense after we shipped out Patterson and Morris if memory serves but got worse on defense).  And what you're telling me is that if we replace Greg Smith/D-MO/Jones with Dwight Howard we won't be better.....OK, I guess that makes sense.

Who said that? All I've been saying is having D12 and Asik on the floor at the same time is not going to work MOST OF THE TIME. Sure, there will be those moments when it's great to have the luxury of having both on the floor. However, is that worth spending 45% of the Rockets cap for the luxury of those few moments? Of course not. That's all I'm saying. Sure, Leslie Alexander will pay some luxury tax down the road. However, it doubles, triples, etc. over time so as a smart businessman I'm sure Leslie Alexander will figure out the best time(s) to be in luxury tax territory and have a strategy for getting out of that situation by the next season or season and a half.

 

I love Asik and I think he can continue improving over time. But if it comes down to D12 or Asik, of course most would agree D12 is the right choice. And just hope and pray that D12 can stiffen up his mental game.

 

 

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