My worst nightmare realized: Trevor Ariza returns to the Houston Rockets

The title is for grins, a running shtick with my loyal followers on Twitter who so kindly checked on my wellbeing upon news of this acquisition.  This was a very good signing.  Make no mistake about that.  If viewed from the prism of Bosh, it is difficult not to be incredibly underwhelmed.  In relation to the team’s master-plan, coming away with Trevor Ariza instead of Carmelo Anthony or Chris Bosh, can only be described as a total disappointment.  I can assure you Daryl Morey and friends will not be going out for drinks upon completion of this deal.  But in vacuo of those considerations–as difficult as it is to distance oneself from prior expectations–this was a good signing, especially at this cost.

When I first saw the news, I was firmly anticipating the numbers to come in at above $11 million per annum.  Trevor Ariza at 8 is very good value, undoubtedly better value than the money the team will be paying Chandler Parsons once they match his offer sheet later today.  Ariza hit 41% on 3′s last season, the highest mark of his career, chipping in a shade over 14 points per game.  He instantly becomes the team’s best shooter and arrives as its sole competent wing defender.  If they match on Parsons, the Rockets today are a better team than the one that closed out the regular season.  (I’m not going to go so far as to say they are better than the playoff version because Asik played a significant role in the playoffs, unlike the regular season, and it remains to be seen if added wing depth holds a greater impact than depth on the frontline).

I learned a lot about basketball from Trevor Ariza.  He was the first player whose game I ever closely looked into; he was the most frustrating player I’ve ever seen in a Houston Rockets uniform.  Watching him play made me understand the nature of ball-handling and ‘creating’ in the NBA, propositions which were only reaffirmed these past few years during my observations of Jeremy Lin.  Ariza has a functional, aesthetically above-par handle, and plus-level athleticism/quickness.  Upon his initial signing, fans with whom I interacted in those days (this was right before the launch of Red94)(and even the team’s broadcasters), immediately assumed Ariza could be the new torch-bearer, sort of a McGrady-lite.  The thinking went that if you can kind of dribble and you can blow by your man, you were a “creator.” These assumptions were categorically false.

A lot like Jeremy Lin, Ariza would blow past his initial defender but never know what to do against the second line of defense*.  He’d get caught in the lane, picking up his dribble and having to toss it back out to save the play.  You can’t just always drive in.  This point was reaffirmed by the return of Tracy McGrady, as I wrote extensively, even as a complete shell of his former self.  Go to your local gym and watch a pickup game between amateurs.  Want to know the difference between the very best and guys that are just good?  By and large, most guys with quickness and a competent handle get tunnel vision when driving the lane.  They’re just going straight in without a plan – their entire objective is to get past their own man.  The elite–the McGrady’s, the Paul’s–are playing chess.  They’re not just trying to blow by and get to the basket.  They’re thinking about the second defender, so they’re slowing down their dribble, attacking at different speeds, squeezing off midrange shots, anticipating the help.  I think the most important skill for a perimeter player is to be able to attack at different speeds.

Due to the presence of James Harden, Ariza won’t be given the opportunity to waste the team’s possessions this time around.  He’ll spot up from ’3′, where hopefully his touch from last year will be retained, he’ll play defense, and he’ll run the floors.  Again, at $8million, this is a good deal.

The team has other avenues to improve and some other options which they are still exploring.  While the last few days’ chain of events no doubt comes as a disappointment, this signing in and of itself was a good one, and it helps the team.  We’ll see what else they are able to do.

*In a conversation that I found utterly fascinating, Steve Nash told Bill Simmons that Amare Stoudemire came into his own in the season when he began being able to read the second line of defense before making his initial move.

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Total comments: 151
  • slick shoes says 2 months ago

    Holy crap. Dirk took a massive pay cut. 3yrs for 25mm. Lordy lord.

    Fun Fact: Kobe will make more this season than Dirk in the next 3.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    Holy crap. Dirk took a massive pay cut. 3yrs for 25mm. Lordy lord.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    See, if you're going to play that card then how do Parsons' known back issues not apply? Tall dudes with back problems don't normally heal. It is especially worrisome when they start early as his did. Call it what you want. Ginobili has long been considered an elite SG. He could have easily put himself on the market and received a max to near max offer. Instead, his salary slowly increased by roughly $1M per year from 2004 ($6M) through 2013 ($14M).

    Cuban has always gone about his business by making player happiness priority #1--and there is nothing wrong with that--I support it. Many players have sung his praises and he has always gone out of his way to give them everything they could possibly want. Let's not forget, it was only a few years ago that he made some very unpopular and shrewd moves in trying to deal with the salary cap in order to maintain the ability to chase stars (Howard and Williams specifically) and broke up a championship team.

    Morey is trying to build a champion. Parsons, in signing that contract (paired with the Bosh snub) signed his ticket out of Houston. Nothing wrong with it. It's just not a good contract when your goal is getting three elite players under contract because Parsons is not elite and I think we will all be surprised if he ends up in that category.

    Because his back issues didn't cause him to miss a massive amount of games the year before he had to negotiate a contract. Ginobli's knees and ankles did in 2008 and 2009. Hell, they even stopped negotiating a contract extension at one point due to his health issues.

    A 3yr 39 million dollar deal for a player over 30 who comes off the bench and misses an entire playoff and a ton of regular season games isn't a deal by any means. He was making as much as Steve Nash was during D'antoni's days in Phoenix.

    I understand that the contract is untenable. This free agency period hasn't been a win for the Rockets. Who knows what happens next year or the year after that.

  • rockets best fan says 2 months ago

    @JG

    well said

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    One of the best SG in the league that had injury concerns as well. He had played 44 games the season leading up to the extension and had missed the playoffs as well. His "discount" was a product of both his perceived lack of durability and injury plagued season combined with the fact that he was playing off the bench.

    See, if you're going to play that card then how do Parsons' known back issues not apply? Tall dudes with back problems don't normally heal. It is especially worrisome when they start early as his did. Call it what you want. Ginobili has long been considered an elite SG. He could have easily put himself on the market and received a max to near max offer. Instead, his salary slowly increased by roughly $1M per year from 2004 ($6M) through 2013 ($14M).

    Cuban has always gone about his business by making player happiness priority #1--and there is nothing wrong with that--I support it. Many players have sung his praises and he has always gone out of his way to give them everything they could possibly want. Let's not forget, it was only a few years ago that he made some very unpopular and shrewd moves in trying to deal with the salary cap in order to maintain the ability to chase stars (Howard and Williams specifically) and broke up a championship team.

    Morey is trying to build a champion. Parsons, in signing that contract (paired with the Bosh snub) signed his ticket out of Houston. Nothing wrong with it. It's just not a good contract when your goal is getting three elite players under contract because Parsons is not elite and I think we will all be surprised if he ends up in that category.

  • Steven says 2 months ago

    @bladad
    Parsons contract was excessive and unearned. how is that preposterous? you're saying he's worth 15 mil per? that's preposterous. role players should make role player money, not star money. if we match that contract we would have been paying Parsons and Harden the same pay. do you think they are in the same category in talent or potential?

    But he is a "star". At least in his own head, and Cuban's. Honestly, it only takes one.
  • rockets best fan says 2 months ago

    @bladad

    Parsons contract was excessive and unearned. how is that preposterous? you're saying he's worth 15 mil per? that's preposterous. role players should make role player money, not star money. if we match that contract we would have been paying Parsons and Harden the same pay. do you think they are in the same category in talent or potential?

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    Ummmm, totally disagree with this. Who is "parroting" Morey....we were all taking our stances before Morey spoke out. How does that work? We are not saying Parsons should have done anyone a favor. No wonder there is no agreement around here....there is simply no understanding.

    I've mentioned specific posts and posters that seem to believe that Parson's new contract wasn't earned or was excessive. I was simply pointing out that the aforementioned statement is preposterous. I should be more accurate by posting using the @poster tag.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    One of the best SG in the league that had injury concerns as well. He had played 44 games the season leading up to the extension and had missed the playoffs as well. His "discount" was a product of both his perceived lack of durability and injury plagued season combined with the fact that he was playing off the bench.

  • slick shoes says 2 months ago

    I am. I loved their style of play and was excited when all the free agent signings lined up. I cheer for all the successes that they have. I also understand that they play in the West and have to go through hell and back to make it to the Finals. With that in mind, I also realize the current limitations of the team personnel wise and coaching wise. I'm going to call the team's poor defensive play poor. I'm not going to try to excuse Parsons(RIP), Lin(RIP), or Harden's defensive lapses. But when forum members just parrot a GM's excuse for why FA hasn't gone well and point out that Parsons should have done the team a favor by taking less, that's when I look at some of you with a completely befuddled look. It just seems like some of you are so blinded by your fandom that you can't acknowledge the problems in the organization.

    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the reason this forum exists is to discuss the problems as well as the successes in the organization. Otherwise were just a bunch of dudes posting pictures of cats and older SNL skits.

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    But when forum members just parrot a GM's excuse for why FA hasn't gone well and point out that Parsons should have done the team a favor by taking less, that's when I look at some of you with a completely befuddled look. It just seems like some of you are so blinded by your fandom that you can't acknowledge the problems in the organization.

    Ummmm, totally disagree with this. Who is "parroting" Morey....we were all taking our stances before Morey spoke out. How does that work? We are not saying Parsons should have done anyone a favor. No wonder there is no agreement around here....there is simply no understanding.

  • rockets best fan says 2 months ago

    @bladad

    good thought you were trolling there for a minute :lol:nobody is saying Morey is perfect. what I am saying is faced with the situation Morey was faced with I would have done the exact same thing. Morey didn't have the advantage of looking into a crystal ball, however when confronted with options that didn't look favorable to the Rockets......he backed away. in the Parsons decision to release him early (aside from wink/wink deals) you damned if you do and damned if you don't. he went for it.......I applaud that. to make scrambled eggs you have to break some. no it didn't work out like we hoped, however instead of sobbing in his tears he made a move on Ariza that plugged the hole at half the price and moved on. what's wrong with that? we still are in position to be predatory

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    Was referring to others in the forum and not you specifically. Just quoted you as a response to you statement about negotiating his contract.

    I do not believe he is a Max player at this time.

    And I'm not a Dallas fan. I do think they are going to do more damage than the Rockets at this point barring a huge shift from how the Rockets played D this year.

    Parker played out his rookie contract and got paid in '05 when he started to take over more as a dominant force. Manu was paid in '04 at the upper echelons of pay for what was considered a 6th man role. Parker is the only one who has never had a real appreciable rise in salary. Manu got payed in excess of 14mm in 2013.

    Thank you. I went and checked their salaries as well. See it how you like. Consider that Parsons is set to make more than either of them ever have or will.

    Check out this site. You have to scroll down, but you can go to the '09-'10 season (when Manu signed his contract) and see the top 30 NBA salaries from that season. Now, based on the fact that he was Manu Ginobili, one of the best SG's in the league and his 6th man status was as much a calculated sacrifice as his salary, you tell me if he took a discount or not. (Note: there are 7 SG's on that list making more than he signed for....lots more)

    LINK

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    @bladad

    are you sure you're a Rocket fan or are you just trolling us? I ask because you don't seem to like much about the Rockets

    I am. I loved their style of play and was excited when all the free agent signings lined up. I cheer for all the successes that they have. I also understand that they play in the West and have to go through hell and back to make it to the Finals. With that in mind, I also realize the current limitations of the team personnel wise and coaching wise. I'm going to call the team's poor defensive play poor. I'm not going to try to excuse Parsons(RIP), Lin(RIP), or Harden's defensive lapses. But when forum members just parrot a GM's excuse for why FA hasn't gone well and point out that Parsons should have done the team a favor by taking less, that's when I look at some of you with a completely befuddled look. It just seems like some of you are so blinded by your fandom that you can't acknowledge the problems in the organization.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    Just exactly when did I condemn Parsons for his new contract? You're just making things up.

    Was referring to others in the forum and not you specifically. Just quoted you as a response to you statement about negotiating his contract.

    I do not believe he is a Max player at this time.

    And I'm not a Dallas fan. I do think they are going to do more damage than the Rockets at this point barring a huge shift from how the Rockets played D this year.

    Parker played out his rookie contract and got paid in '05 when he started to take over more as a dominant force. Manu was paid in '04 at the upper echelons of pay for what was considered a 6th man role. Parker is the only one who has never had a real appreciable rise in salary. Manu got payed in excess of 14mm in 2013.

  • rockets best fan says 2 months ago

    @bladad

    are you sure you're a Rocket fan or are you just trolling us? I ask because you don't seem to like much about the Rockets

  • rocketrick says 2 months ago

    He's been a bargain for the past two seasons. It's called buying the lows. Some people can time it, others can't. It's nobody's fault. Just how the market dynamics of free agency took him away. Just don't judge/condemn the man for wanting to realize his maximum value on his first non rookie contract.


    Just exactly when did I condemn Parsons for his new contract? You're just making things up.
  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    Sureeeee. Nothing like a LOF tag on my first post or a "your post is nonsense and drivel" that won't whip me into a frenzy

    Your response is your responsibility

  • rocketrick says 2 months ago

    It sounds like a man who has already won a championship in the league wants to win another one and is willing to take a pay cut to surround himself with better talent. It sounds like what Tim Duncan has done in the past with Manu and Parker.


    Good luck with that (Dallas) roster! They will be better than last year, but they aren't going to win an NBA Title with that roster in my opinion.
  • rocketrick says 2 months ago

    He's been a bargain for the past two seasons. It's called buying the lows. Some people can time it, others can't. It's nobody's fault. Just how the market dynamics of free agency took him away. Just don't judge/condemn the man for wanting to realize his maximum value on his first non rookie contract.


    Do you believe that Chandler Parsons is a Max Salary Player?
  • bladad says 2 months ago

    No because it doesn't matter and, like it or not, you have been as much an instigator as anyone.

    Sureeeee. Nothing like a LOF tag on my first post or a "your post is nonsense and drivel" that won't whip me into a frenzy

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    It sounds like a man who has already won a championship in the league wants to win another one and is willing to take a pay cut to surround himself with better talent. It sounds like what Tim Duncan has done in the past with Manu and Parker.

    Except that those guys also took pay cuts to make it work....

  • rocketrick says 2 months ago

    Finally, Morey let/forced/shooed Lowry and Dragic to other teams in the NBA. He also overpaid for Lin and Asik as free agents. He also whiffed this free agency, period. Ariza is not a free agency win. He is a salve for a missing Parsons.


    You failed to mention that Lowry didn't see eye to eye with McHale. Nor the fact that the lottery pick the Rockets received from Toronto turned into James Harden.

    You failed to mention that Dragic and his agent demanded a 4th year/player option. At that time, no one on the Rockets had a player option. The 4th year was also an issue at that time for salary cap management purposes. This was well before the Rockets maneuvered into acquiring their 2 key players, James Harden and Dwight Howard. Teams and GM's that properly manage their salary cap puts themselves into position for major acquisitions.

    I argue that Morey actually did not overpay for Lin and Asik. Keep in mind both players earned $5 million per year the first 2 years of their contracts and other teams will be paying them the $15 million for this season's production. If he had just offered them $8 million per season for 3 seasons, it would have made it much easier for their teams to have matched.

    For 5 hours this past Friday, it looked like the Rockets and Morey were going to be the 2nd biggest winners of this free agency period (obviously Lebron going to Cleveland is the tops). I would have much preferred that things work out. Unfortunately as we all know too well, things turned. However, much credit should be given to Morey and the Rockets for properly managing their salary cap and giving themselves the opportunity to sign a Max Cap player like a Chris Bosh this off-season. It doesn't always work, in fact most times that Max Cap player just ends up staying with the same team because of that team's ability to offer 1 additional year and more money under the CBA rules.

    Lots of people are taking pot shots at Morey. Get yours in while the opportunity is there if you must.

    Finally, does anyone believe the Mavericks are going to go on and win the NBA Title with a Big 3 of a 36 year old Dirk, Monte Ellis and Chandler Parsons? No way the Rockets were going to win the NBA Title with a Big 3 of D12, Harden and Parsons and basically no more room to maneuver to make necessary improvements to the roster.

    For the Rockets and Morey, it's all about increasing our chances at NBA Titles. The easy way out is just re-sign Parsons and win some 1st and maybe an occasional 2nd round playoff series and call it a successful year.

    This is why Morey is much appreciated on this forum as the long term members that continue to contribute understand the difficulties of managing salary caps and working within the rules of the CBA in building the best possible roster. Everyone else just mocks the Rockets when they lose players like Lowry and Dragic and Parsons, etc.
  • bladad says 2 months ago

    The Rockets did negotiate with Parsons prior to the Dallas offer sheet. I'm not on the inside of the the organization, but I am quite confident the Rockets were trying to negotiate an extension. Just because it wasn't reported in the Media doesn't mean the Rockets were sitting on their butts.

    Like I've been saying since yesterday, Parsons believes he is a Max Salary player. How do you negotiate an extension with someone that believes that? The only remaining option is to let him test the market as a RFA. Just because Dallas was willing to pay him $15 million with a poison pill contract doesn't necessarily mean that is the market value. That was Dallas' way of creating a difficult decision for the Rockets in order to give the Mavericks the best chance of stealing Parsons from the Rockets. Obviously, none of the other 29 teams in the NBA felt Parsons was worth $15 million, just Dallas, and I argue they had to overpay in order to have a chance to steal Parsons.

    If it was just about purely money and market value, Dallas would have offered Parsons $10-$12 million or less in order to have more cap space to add additional roster pieces. Instead, they made a decision to go for it and they basically threw in all their poker chips to get Parsons. If it was just about purely money and market value, why include all those poison pill clauses in the offer sheet?

    He's been a bargain for the past two seasons. It's called buying the lows. Some people can time it, others can't. It's nobody's fault. Just how the market dynamics of free agency took him away. Just don't judge/condemn the man for wanting to realize his maximum value on his first non rookie contract.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    @rocketrick

    agreed. I read an article on a Dallas blog where Nelson (Dallas GM) admitted they overpaid Parsons. he said they hope Parson can live up to it, but he is not at star level yet even tho he make more money than any other player on the team. Dirk just signed for 3 years and 25 mil yet Parsons will make 30 mil over the next 2 years. how does that sound?

    It sounds like a man who has already won a championship in the league wants to win another one and is willing to take a pay cut to surround himself with better talent. It sounds like what Tim Duncan has done in the past with Manu and Parker.

  • rockets best fan says 2 months ago

    @rocketrick

    agreed. I read an article on a Dallas blog where Nelson (Dallas GM) admitted they overpaid Parsons. he said they hope Parson can live up to it, but he is not at star level yet even tho he make more money than any other player on the team. Dirk just signed for 3 years and 25 mil yet Parsons will make 30 mil over the next 2 years. how does that sound?

  • rocketrick says 2 months ago

    Statements like:

    Parsons could have been greatful taken fair market value that the Rockets offered but that was not the case. He is a young guy who had been playing for peanuts and was looking to get paid as much as possible to the detriment of anything else, good for him.

    are what I'm railing against. The Rox didn't offer him an extension when they could have. Then the fans complain that he should be grateful for fair market value that the Rox offered. Looking at Hayward's contract, fair market is what Parsons got. The retro pay is a moot point and I probably shouldn't have phrased it like that. He has earned his new contract.


    The Rockets did negotiate with Parsons prior to the Dallas offer sheet. I'm not on the inside of the the organization, but I am quite confident the Rockets were trying to negotiate an extension. Just because it wasn't reported in the Media doesn't mean the Rockets were sitting on their butts.

    Like I've been saying since yesterday, Parsons believes he is a Max Salary player. How do you negotiate an extension with someone that believes that? The only remaining option is to let him test the market as a RFA. Just because Dallas was willing to pay him $15 million with a poison pill contract doesn't necessarily mean that is the market value. That was Dallas' way of creating a difficult decision for the Rockets in order to give the Mavericks the best chance of stealing Parsons from the Rockets. Obviously, none of the other 29 teams in the NBA felt Parsons was worth $15 million, just Dallas, and I argue they had to overpay in order to have a chance to steal Parsons.

    If it was just about purely money and market value, Dallas would have offered Parsons $10-$12 million or less in order to have more cap space to add additional roster pieces. Instead, they made a decision to go for it and they basically threw in all their poker chips to get Parsons. If it was just about purely money and market value, why include all those poison pill clauses in the offer sheet?
  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    Should I whip out the "He started it" kitty picture again?

    No because it doesn't matter and, like it or not, you have been as much an instigator as anyone.

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    I always said fair market value. There will always be relative value to teams, but when you take Hayward's contract into consideration, Parson's contract is reasonably inflated. Retro pay is a moot point and I concede to your point. I am still of the opinion that players are paid based on past performance. No team overpays in free agency for untapped talent like Hasheem Thabeet. They overpay for past results, though.

    You may have missed my point about stocks. I feel like that comparison is quite apt and includes your notion of past performance determining future value, but only in a speculative way--not in a back-scratching-thanks-for-the-memories way.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    I might be off base here, but I have to disagree with you. Perk's extension was due to OCK's need for a big man and him being the most affordable/best option for them at the time. It opened up Ibaka's shot blocking potential as well as his mid range.

    Based on his past results proving that he as able to do that. Otherwise they would have called up Thabeet from the D League for a more affordable option.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    OK everybody. We're all enjoying this. However, if we can't keep it limited to the topic (meaning not personal) I'm shutting it down.

    I will take my ball and go home! :lol:

    Should I whip out the "He started it" kitty picture again?

  • slick shoes says 2 months ago

    Perk's contract extension by OKC was based on his pivotal past performance during the Finals?

    I might be off base here, but I have to disagree with you. Perk's extension was due to OCK's need for a big man and him being the most affordable/best option for them at the time. It opened up Ibaka's shot blocking potential as well as his mid range.

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    OK everybody. We're all enjoying this. However, if we can't keep it limited to the topic (meaning not personal) I'm shutting it down.

    I will take my ball and go home! :lol:

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    I get it. Yes, by definition Parsons received fair market value. However, in that definition are multiple references to subjectivity, context, and circumstance, etc. all contributing to said value. To Utah, or Dallas, Parsons is worth more money. From this side of the fence, not so much.

    I feel like we are vacillating between two or three different concepts that are trying to get mashed up into one. Fair value? Retro-Pay? You can't have both. Dallas certainly was not offering any retro-pay to Parsons...and they still came in at a high price.

    Isn't it possible that this is another case of "the hot girl". Guys see her with someone else and imagine how great it would be to date her. If they ever get a chance, they will give just about anything for the opportunity. Meanwhile, the guy she was with is fine to see her go--he has since realized she is just like any other girl and not so special.

    I always said fair market value. There will always be relative value to teams, but when you take Hayward's contract into consideration, Parson's contract is reasonably inflated. Retro pay is a moot point and I concede to your point. I am still of the opinion that players are paid based on past performance. No team overpays in free agency for untapped talent like Hasheem Thabeet. They overpay for past results, though.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    That is all laughable and not even worth addressing considering what my time means to me.

    Sure, you got me pegged I'm a blind homer and Cuban is so much better than Morey and nothing matters more than your definition of fair market value and Parsons is a great player and the Mavs are better than the Rockets. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Parsons isn't worth that money except maybe to desperate teams who can't land top tier free agents, it's pretty basic. (Stoudamire oh yeah, he was worth 26 million a year, Meeks worth 7 million a year sure!, those contracts as well as Parsons are jokes)

    Perk's contract extension by OKC was based on his pivotal past performance during the Finals? Same for Tony Allen and the Grizz.

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    Ah sht. the price discrimination part was for the point about Minnesota. My bad.

    I should have made this clearer before. In contract negotiations with a player, any team that has let a RFA find a qualifying offer is not longer in control of the price of that player. That team has become a price taker and is at the whims of the market. Our previous discussion wasn't if Parson's contract was too rich for the Rockets. It was a conversation about whether he had received fair value according to the market that had been established. Not fair value according to the ROX and their fans.

    I get it. Yes, by definition Parsons received fair market value. However, in that definition are multiple references to subjectivity, context, and circumstance, etc. all contributing to said value. To Utah, or Dallas, Parsons is worth more money. From this side of the fence, not so much.

    I feel like we are vacillating between two or three different concepts that are trying to get mashed up into one. Fair value? Retro-Pay? You can't have both. Dallas certainly was not offering any retro-pay to Parsons...and they still came in at a high price.

    Isn't it possible that this is another case of "the hot girl". Guys see her with someone else and imagine how great it would be to date her. If they ever get a chance, they will give just about anything for the opportunity. Meanwhile, the guy she was with is fine to see her go--he has since realized she is just like any other girl and not so special.

  • rocketrick says 2 months ago

    I should have made this clearer before. In contract negotiations with a player, any team that has let a RFA find a qualifying offer is not longer in control of the price of that player. That team has become a price taker and is at the whims of the market. Our previous discussion wasn't if Parson's contract was too rich for the Rockets. It was a conversation about whether he had received fair value according to the market that had been established. Not fair value according to the ROX and their fans.


    In all of your posts today about money, you have failed to mention how the contract was structured. That played just as important, if not even moreso, role than just the money.

    By the way, how do you expect the negotiations to go between Morey and the Rockets and Chandler Parsons when Parsons believes in his heart of hearts that he is a Max Cap Player. The Rockets did try to negotiate a contract with Parsons prior to the Dallas offer sheet.

    I would have preferred that Chandler Parsons remain with the Houston Rockets. However, if it was between just accepting the poison pill contract and retain a fan favorite or continue improving the odds for your team to win NBA Titles, I choose the latter.
  • bladad says 2 months ago

    This again for bladad:

    You seriously shouldn't be a moderator for a forum if you're going to be this ignorant or this much of a duck.

  • feelingsupersonic says 2 months ago

    This again for bladad:

    @bladad

    move to Dallas......it's very simple :lol:if you think Cuban is the man, root for Dallas and leave us alone with your whining. we don't have time to keep changing diapers. I agree with every move Morey has made, if you don't like it nobody is forcing you to pull for the Rockets. find a team who thinks like you do and you won't be disappointed.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    That is all laughable and not even worth addressing considering what my time means to me.

    Sure, you got me pegged I'm a blind homer and Cuban is so much better than Morey and nothing matters more than your definition of fair market value and Parsons is a great player and the Mavs are better than the Rockets. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Parsons isn't worth that money except maybe to desperate teams who can't land top tier free agents, it's pretty basic. (Stoudamire oh yeah, he was worth 26 million a year, Meeks worth 7 million a year sure!, those contracts as well as Parsons are jokes)

    Sorry. The definition of fair market value is absolute. Even if you are too ignorant to actually understand economics or basic pricing. Just because you don't understand it or acknowledge it because of your ignorance and or hubris, doesn't make it any less true. But please continue to spout your nonsense.

  • slick shoes says 2 months ago

    I'm sorry, but when did it become ok to hold up the poor choices of a select few to justify an entire faulty concept? Is that what you want? Do you honestly think that was a good move by the Lakers or Kobe? That was only good for Kobe's wallet. Kobe will spend the next two years griping about not having good enough team mates, will throw the same GM that gave him $48M under thebuss (pun intended) and begrudgingly ride off into the sunset most likely with parting shots for LeBron, Durant, and anyone else who threatens his legacy.

    Once again, if you think paying Kobe and his medical staff $24M a year to sit on the bench then I don't think we are going to find anything close to common ground.

    This reminds me of the numerous times my parents asked, "if everyone jumped off a bridge would you do it too?"

    Thanks for making my point without making me type all of the words and stuff.

  • feelingsupersonic says 2 months ago

    That is all laughable and not even worth addressing considering what my time means to me.

    Sure, you got me pegged I'm a blind homer and Cuban is so much better than Morey and nothing matters more than your definition of fair market value and Parsons is a great player and the Mavs are better than the Rockets. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Parsons isn't worth that money except maybe to desperate teams who can't land top tier free agents, it's pretty basic. (Stoudamire oh yeah, he was worth 26 million a year, Meeks worth 7 million a year sure!, those contracts as well as Parsons are jokes)

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    Oh so that's why Kobe is getting so much money....

    I'm sorry, but when did it become ok to hold up the poor choices of a select few to justify an entire faulty concept? Is that what you want? Do you honestly think that was a good move by the Lakers or Kobe? That was only good for Kobe's wallet. Kobe will spend the next two years griping about not having good enough team mates, will throw the same GM that gave him $48M under thebuss (pun intended) and begrudgingly ride off into the sunset most likely with parting shots for LeBron, Durant, and anyone else who threatens his legacy.

    Once again, if you think paying Kobe and his medical staff $24M a year to sit on the bench is good then I don't think we are going to find anything close to common ground.

    This reminds me of the numerous times my parents asked, "if everyone jumped off a bridge would you do it too?"

    EDIT: words

  • slick shoes says 2 months ago

    Oh so that's why Kobe is getting so much money....

    It is not an all inclusive policy. Kobe is a case within it/him self.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    For the economically challeneged: Price Discriminationand Opportunity Cost

    Once again, we seem to find ourselves viewing the subject from entirely different perspectives.

    Morey must consider opportunity cost. In that light, Parsons "cost" was too great in lieu of Ariza (and the loss of championship odds as he saw it...he said it flat out in his interview...if he matched Parsons they would have most likely closed the door on a championship for the next 3 years according to his valuation of Parsons--the cost was too high.)

    I understand how pricing works. I understand value as well. Parsons, at that price (fair or not) was no longer valuable in relation to our goals. It's a bigger picture than just him.

    Ah sht. the price discrimination part was for the point about Minnesota. My bad.

    I should have made this clearer before. In contract negotiations with a player, any team that has let a RFA find a qualifying offer is not longer in control of the price of that player. That team has become a price taker and is at the whims of the market. Our previous discussion wasn't if Parson's contract was too rich for the Rockets. It was a conversation about whether he had received fair value according to the market that had been established. Not fair value according to the ROX and their fans.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    I would say no. You are paying onfutures based off of previous performance--it's more like the stock market.

    Lowry got paid $12M/yr because he is arguably the 3rd best two-way PG in the league. There is Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, and then....Kyle Lowry. You could argue he is still underpaid. Sure, there are better defensive PG's and better offensive PG's, but for the combination of offense, defense, and experience while still being in one's prime...yeah, he's worth every bit of that $12M--and that is current value. It's got nothing to do with retro-pay.

    Oh so that's why Kobe is getting so much money....

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    JG

    Price discrimination. Not opportunity costs.

    Also, the market determines the equilibrium point of a market by crossing supply and demand. An individual's price sensitivity affects the market simply places them somewhere along the demand curve. It doesn't make the market.

    For the economically challeneged: Price Discriminationand Opportunity Cost

    Once again, we seem to find ourselves viewing the subject from entirely different perspectives.

    Morey must consider opportunity cost. In that light, Parsons "cost" was too great in lieu of Ariza (and the loss of championship odds as he saw it...he said it flat out in his interview...if he matched Parsons they would have most likely closed the door on a championship for the next 3 years according to his valuation of Parsons--the cost was too high.)

    I understand how pricing works. I understand value as well. Parsons, at that price (fair or not) was no longer valuable in relation to our goals. It's a bigger picture than just him.

  • rockets best fan says 2 months ago

    @slick shoes

    funny :lol:

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    @JG

    In a sense, aren't you always retropaying a player for previous season's work? If that's not the case, why did Kyle Lowry just get that nice salary bump in his multi-year contract from Toronto?

    I would say no. You are paying onfutures based off of previous performance--it's more like the stock market.

    Lowry got paid $12M/yr because he is arguably the 3rd best two-way PG in the league. There is Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, and then....Kyle Lowry. You could argue he is still underpaid. Sure, there are better defensive PG's and better offensive PG's, but for the combination of offense, defense, and experience while still being in one's prime...yeah, he's worth every bit of that $12M--and that is current value. It's got nothing to do with retro-pay.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 2 months ago JG it represents fair value for him if you think about it this way.

    1) he was the best FA available that they could get.

    2) the lesser FAs wouldn't come either.

    3) with the new tv deal raising the salary cap to around 90 mil per year that 16 mil deal is worth around 10 mil is this year. Is Hayward worth that?

    4) He's put up good numbers(his percentages are bad that's why they're not great) with Jefferson as his starting SF.

    I think he's going to average 18/5/5 next year with an increase in percentages with the new coach and system in place and the better talent around him.
  • slick shoes says 2 months ago

    @slick shoes

    I expect the pundits too be critical of Morey. because of some of his success he has detractors. however I still believe in him

    As one of the "converted" I am slightly offended by that piece. Im thinking I should find another GM that is more highly praised and is willing to pay me more than I'm worth. Oh wait, I'm not Chandler Parsons......

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    Wait, does anyone think that Gordon Hayward's $63M represents fair market value? My buddy sells cars. Every once in a while, he gets a customer that comes in and doesn't even ask the price of the car. They say, I want that one and sign the papers. No negotiating. No nothing. He loves those people.

    Does that mean we should all pay that much for the car or that it is worth that amount? Michael Jordan wanted that "new car" and was willing to pay the "max" for it. Most of us shoppers are more frugal. I am somewhat surprised Utah matched it, but I can understand why. Second to Minnesota, they are in the worst situation socially for basketball operations. Guys don't want to live there. They don't have a coach, star, or city that attracts people. They had to match--it doesn't automatically translate to all SF's should be paid according to this scale. That's what agents will tell you because it is their job to maximize their clients' earnings (which conveniently maximizes their own).

    There are more factors at play here than fair market value and if we are going to analyze this even economically you have to bring in opportunity costs. Once you look at those, it all becomes crystal clear.

    JG

    It would be more of an issue of price discrimination than opportunity costs for an NBA franchise like Minnesota as they would be price takers. For a player, they would be looking at opportunity cost.

    Also, the market determines the equilibrium point of a market by crossing supply and demand. An individual's price sensitivity affects the market simply places them somewhere along the demand curve. It doesn't make the market.

  • Steven says 2 months ago

    @slick shoes
    I expect the pundits too be critical of Morey. because of some of his success he has detractors. however I still believe in him

    He has only been out of the first round once. I know all the reasons why, just stating a fact everyone.
  • rockets best fan says 2 months ago

    @JG

    Haywood is overpaid.......... period. however considering Utah's inability to lure FA... they had no choice but to match

  • rockets best fan says 2 months ago

    @slick shoes

    I expect the pundits too be critical of Morey. because of some of his success he has detractors. however I still believe in him

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    Wait, does anyone think that Gordon Hayward's $63M represents fair market value? My buddy sells cars. Every once in a while, he gets a customer that comes in and doesn't even ask the price of the car. They say, I want that one and sign the papers. No negotiating. No nothing. He loves those people.

    Does that mean we should all pay that much for the car or that it is worth that amount? Michael Jordan wanted that "new car" and was willing to pay the "max" for it. Most of us shoppers are more frugal. I am somewhat surprised Utah matched it, but I can understand why. Second to Minnesota, they are in the worst situation socially for basketball operations. Guys don't want to live there. They don't have a coach, star, or city that attracts people. They had to match--it doesn't automatically translate to all SF's should be paid according to this scale. That's what agents will tell you because it is their job to maximize their clients' earnings (which conveniently maximizes their own).

    There are more factors at play here than fair market value and if we are going to analyze this even economically you have to bring in opportunity costs. Once you look at those, it all becomes crystal clear.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    @JG

    In a sense, aren't you always retropaying a player for previous season's work? If that's not the case, why did Kyle Lowry just get that nice salary bump in his multi-year contract from Toronto?

  • slick shoes says 2 months ago

    Sort of relevant here:

    https://medium.com/the-cauldron/the-man-who-sold-the-world-3df16d8b754a

    Ouch. Seems like the author is also taking aim at us here.

  • Cooper says 2 months ago Bev is in line for at least 5mill. if he shows more offensively he could work into 7-9million range like Teague, Jennings, Holdiay.
  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    I'm curious. What does everybody think about Patrick Beverley and his contract? Should he be going into Morey's office and asking for a new contract since he is the lowest paid starting PG in the league (by a mile at $788,882 last season and $915,243 this year).

    From the outside looking in, I'd say Beverley falls on the other side of the fence. He is happy for his opportunity. He understands that every game he is simultaneously honoring his current contract and auditioning for his next one. When that time comes, he will get paid what he is worth. Why would we say, "Hey, Pat...great job. We should sign you to a 3 yr. $18M contract (assuming he plays roughly the same this year as last with some improvements here and there) but instead, we are going to hamstring ourselves by retro-paying you for the previous seasons' work. Here, have this 4 year/$48M deal with some opt-outs, trade kickers, and plenty of performance incentives so that you'll become a selfish stat chaser.

    This is something I think people just aren't keeping their focus on. There is a salary cap. It matters--A LOT. You can't just go George Steinbrenner on this thing. Even Mikhail Prokorov (who has stupid money) has taken notice. If there wasn't a cap, sure, you can retro-pay people all you want. But in the NBA if you do that you wind up like the Lakers with Kobe...or worse.

    For all the talk about how Houston has a horrible reputation with players and treats people like "assets", they are one of the best teams over the last 6-7 years in drafting, developing, and helping players succeed both on the court and in their wallets. If I was going to get drafted by any team, Houston would definitely be in my top 5 (and not cuz I'm a homer). Because I know that they would invest in me and, one way or the other, are going to help me succeed in basketball.

    Entitlement is the word. Some people are ok with it. Some aren't. Who knows why....

  • rockets best fan says 2 months ago

    @TTDN

    Morey does thing I don't agree with, but in the big picture he's an excellent gm

    @Steven

    I got this one :lol:

    @bladad

    I don't need to address your issues because they are non-issues. whining isn't going to change the future. if you want to discuss the team we have now instead of talking about what you think are past transgressions I'm down for that. continuing to whine about water under the bridge is fruitless. you aren't going to change my mind about what Morey has done because I agree with it. we could waste time breaking down each problem, but it would only serve to make you mad. if you love to hate the Rocketsthen coming on this board trying to get a charge from the loyalRocket faithful has to be some kind of game to you. I don't agree with your assessment. if that makes you angry.........to bad :lol:

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    @bladad
    While people might disagree, going after ones perceived mental capabilities is unacceptable. "You" lose the debate the second "you" begin name calling.

    @RBF
    Don't go after ones manhood. That is a cynical personal attack, we are better then that on this forum.

    what-he-started-it.jpg

    HE BROUGHT OUT LOF!!!

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    I think the disconnect is centered around this sentiment that you wrote, bladad.

    Not all of us believe that is how it works. It is a privilege to be drafted into the NBA. It is a bigger privilege to be given a 4 yr. above market deal by the team that drafted you. It is a privilege to be coached by some of the best in the world and given every chance to succeed by said organization. It is a privilege (for 99% of people) to earn $900,000 a year for anything--regardless.

    So, when you approach the situation from your vantage point of retro-pay for services rendered there is a disconnect. To most of us, that's not how this works. His hard work, professionalism, improvement, and contribution to our team were part of his original contract and his over-achievement certainly serve his aim to receive a raise. However, there is no retro-pay. He should be paid what his next 3-4 years of service are worth, not a cumulative sum that includes work he has already been compensated for. He signed the contract (quite happily I might add) and it was his job to honor it.

    It's two different points of view and I don't see a way to reconcile between those who think you get what you get and those who think otherwise.

    No one is being delusional--there is just a vast chasm between these two philosophies.

    Statements like:

    Parsons could have been greatful taken fair market value that the Rockets offered but that was not the case. He is a young guy who had been playing for peanuts and was looking to get paid as much as possible to the detriment of anything else, good for him.

    are what I'm railing against. The Rox didn't offer him an extension when they could have. Then the fans complain that he should be grateful for fair market value that the Rox offered. Looking at Hayward's contract, fair market is what Parsons got. The retro pay is a moot point and I probably shouldn't have phrased it like that. He has earned his new contract.

  • Steven says 2 months ago @bladad
    While people might disagree, going after ones perceived mental capabilities is unacceptable. "You" lose the debate the second "you" begin name calling.

    @RBF
    Don't go after ones manhood. That is a cynical personal attack, we are better then that on this forum.
  • bladad says 2 months ago

    @bladad

    fandomgone amok :lol: :lol:I could say the same when it comes to J-Lin about you. simply because we don't share the same opinion about what the Rockets are doing? I'm all out of tissue to wipe the tears........MAN UP we can not continue holding your hand in a kum ba ya moment. either deal with the fallout or move on

    Um. Obviously you're slow. Slow and delusional. You keep talking past the issues that I bring up instead of actually addressing them and then following with an absolutely pointless incendiary comment. Maybe you should follow FSS's advice and post about something with substance. Also, I'm not super happy about shipping JLin out. It makes the bench extremely thin among other things. A LOF wouldn't have the same opinion as me. Since you're slow, I'll give you some time to figure it out.

    Ask me if you need help.

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    And this is a classic example of fandom gone amok. It isn't whining. It's pointing out the facts. Something that you and FSS are trying to ignore. It's fine to be optimistic. Don't be delusional.

    I think the disconnect is centered around this sentiment that you wrote, bladad.

    At some point he does need to be paid for being ridiculously underpaid for the last two years of his contract.

    Not all of us believe that is how it works. It is a privilege to be drafted into the NBA. It is a bigger privilege to be given a 4 yr. above market deal by the team that drafted you. It is a privilege to be coached by some of the best in the world and given every chance to succeed by said organization. It is a privilege (for 99% of people) to earn $900,000 a year for anything--regardless.

    So, when you approach the situation from your vantage point of retro-pay for services rendered there is a disconnect. To most of us, that's not how this works. His hard work, professionalism, improvement, and contribution to our team were part of his original contract and his over-achievement certainly serves his aim to receive a raise. However, there is no retro-pay. He should be paid what his next 3-4 years of service are worth, not a cumulative sum that includes work he has already been compensated for. He signed the contract (quite happily I might add) and it was his job to honor it.

    It's two different points of view and I don't see a way to reconcile between those who think you get what you get and those who think otherwise.

    No one is being delusional--there is just a vast chasm between these two philosophies.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 2 months ago Just accept the fact that if you don't worship Morey you are an outcast on this forum. Morey has proven how good he is and while I disagree sometimes he has sound logic behind what he does. While this offseason wasn't great It's not over yet. There are a lot of options to trade for that makes us better.
  • rockets best fan says 2 months ago

    @bladad

    fandomgone amok :lol: :lol:I could say the same when it comes to J-Lin about you. simply because we don't share the same opinion about what the Rockets are doing? I'm all out of tissue to wipe the tears........MAN UP we can not continue holding your hand in a kum ba ya moment. either deal with the fallout or move on

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    @bladad

    move to Dallas......it's very simple :lol:if you think Cuban is the man, root for Dallas and leave us alone with your whining. we don't have time to keep changing diapers. I agree with every move Morey has made, if you don't like it nobody is forcing you to pull for the Rockets. find a team who thinks like you do and you won't be disappointed.

    And this is a classic example of fandom gone amok. It isn't whining. It's pointing out the facts. Something that you and FSS are trying to ignore. It's fine to be optimistic. Don't be delusional.

  • Steven says 2 months ago @moderators
    Can we ban anyone who says any of these words: Parsons, the hair, Chandler, overpaid "star", pretty boy, buffalo model, or anything else related to the Benedict Arnold who now resides his "trade" in that waste of a city 250 miles to the north?

    Honestly good for him, he is getting paid like the "star" he is in his own head. Maybe he will prove it, maybe he won't. It's been 48 hours, time to wash our hands of him and move on to bigger and better things.
  • slick shoes says 2 months ago

    Thought I was a LOF....

    Sorry, I don't know most of you well enough to keep track. Just a long time Rockets fan trying to chat with other fans about the future of our team.

  • rockets best fan says 2 months ago

    @bladad

    move to Dallas......it's very simple :lol:if you think Cuban is the man, root for Dallas and leave us alone with your whining. we don't have time to keep changing diapers. I agree with every move Morey has made, if you don't like it nobody is forcing you to pull for the Rockets. find a team who thinks like you do and you won't be disappointed.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    Have the Parsons Only Fans begun to flock to our board?

    Thought I was a LOF....

    Just frustrating when you see a person ignore all the failures of an organization and tow the line. You can be the biggest fan ever, just don't let the wool get drawn over your eyes so easily. This free agency frenzy sucked for the Rockets.

  • slick shoes says 2 months ago

    This was your accusatory statement about how a valuable NBA player should be grateful for the sub market value contract he was offered/not offered:

    "Parsons could have been greatful taken fair market value that the Rockets offered but that was not the case. He is a young guy who had been playing for peanuts and was looking to get paid as much as possible to the detriment of anything else, good for him. His agent Fagan and Cuban are buddies so it should come as no real surprise that when Cuban struck out again for the 4th time (imagine how bad it is being a Mavs fan) Fagan had him covered and vice versa.

    Think about what you read and why Parsons said that. If you believe that at face value then we live in different worlds. To me Parsons saying he was offended is him repeating what he was prompted to say by Fagan because it's all about the money and that's cool, it's business right.

    Imagine the team you are a fan of repeatedly misses on free agents, even as the team wins a championship and the owner keeps space for additions to no avail, and in the end has no choice but to claim victory by taking on a sub All Star small forward by luring him with a max contract. I'm glad here in Houston we get big names and that Morey doesn't snare mid tier players by over paying them."

    You're wrong about that completely. He outperformed his rookie contract. He deserves what he gets in an open market especially when the Rockets could have signed him earlier at a more affordable rate. It is Morey's fault that he didn't have the foresight to understand that a young guy coming off his rookie contract wouldn't take a pay cut for a chance to chase for a ring. He isn't Tim Duncan or Dirk who have both had multiple contract extensions.There are no hometown discounts, especially when it's been indicated that the team would match offers and especially when a peer (Gordon Hayward) has gotten paid.

    Secondly, Cuban has made it very well known that he is building a contender for as long as Dirk has his legs to chase championships. He got a great player in Parsons and has done his job as an owner to make sure his team is the best it can be at the present time and in the future. In fact, he almost landed Dwight when he was a free agent as well. In my opinion as an executive, he's done a better job than Morey has of assembling a team and creating an atmosphere that is conducive to a winning team (coaching staff, players). Has he been able to coax the massive free agent signings in the past couple years? No. It most certainly isn't his fault for not putting the team in the best light though.

    Finally, Morey let/forced/shooed Lowry and Dragic to other teams in the NBA. He also overpaid for Lin and Asik as free agents. He also whiffed this free agency, period. Ariza is not a free agency win. He is a salve for a missing Parsons.

    So never did you mention in your previous post about the Rocket's being in a better place. You were simply complaining as a fan as opposed to providing any sort of reasonable analysis. I believe you called that drivel once. It is not on Parsons to take a below market value deal to save the team cap space when he has never had a contract that paid him fairly for his performance. So you were wrong at least 2 of the 3 points that you posted about before.

    Admit you're wrong and move on.

    PS: Thanks for the half assed "I messed up putting all my eggs in the Bosh basket. I'll try to pull a Mark Cuban and gear up for another free agent run soon" quote. Another year older for Dwight, a thinner bench, and a band aid for the gaping wound left at the 3, sure sounds like this upcoming season might be interesting. I hope for the best, but it sure as hell looks as if the Rockets screwed the pooch.

    Have the Parsons Only Fans begun to flock to our board?

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    I beg you're pardon sir but I'm definitely not a joke nor are the things I write. Perhaps I just couldn't explain why the Rockets are in the right and in a better place by not matching Parsons' Dallas contract offer, maybe Morey's words from one of his interviews yesterday could shed light better:

    “When you have your core that you feel like can be the championship core you can really almost pay anything to anyone,” Morey said. “You’re just putting the final frosting on the championship cake.”

    “Until that point you will hurt your odds of winning the championship if you make moves that eliminate your chance to continue to improve. That’s sort of the issue with those mid-tier type contracts. They are great if they’re sort of the final piece. That’s why once you have Bosh and you have Chandler, paying Chandler anything is fine once you have Bosh. You can pay him a hundred million, it’d be fine. Now you have a team with that set of guys plus a young core around them and good role players. Now you’ve got a team that is going to go out there and maybe be the favorite or the top three to go win a championship. If you lock all that in prior to having your set that you feel like has great odds to winning the championship you literally are eliminating your odds of winning a championship. That is sort of what we felt like we were facing…We felt like matching [Parsons> would drop our championship odds in a big way because it would eliminate our ability to keep improving.”

    This was your accusatory statement about how a valuable NBA player should be grateful for the sub market value contract he was offered/not offered:

    "Parsons could have been greatful taken fair market value that the Rockets offered but that was not the case. He is a young guy who had been playing for peanuts and was looking to get paid as much as possible to the detriment of anything else, good for him. His agent Fagan and Cuban are buddies so it should come as no real surprise that when Cuban struck out again for the 4th time (imagine how bad it is being a Mavs fan) Fagan had him covered and vice versa.

    Think about what you read and why Parsons said that. If you believe that at face value then we live in different worlds. To me Parsons saying he was offended is him repeating what he was prompted to say by Fagan because it's all about the money and that's cool, it's business right.

    Imagine the team you are a fan of repeatedly misses on free agents, even as the team wins a championship and the owner keeps space for additions to no avail, and in the end has no choice but to claim victory by taking on a sub All Star small forward by luring him with a max contract. I'm glad here in Houston we get big names and that Morey doesn't snare mid tier players by over paying them."

    You're wrong about that completely. He outperformed his rookie contract. He deserves what he gets in an open market especially when the Rockets could have signed him earlier at a more affordable rate. It is Morey's fault that he didn't have the foresight to understand that a young guy coming off his rookie contract wouldn't take a pay cut for a chance to chase for a ring. He isn't Tim Duncan or Dirk who have both had multiple contract extensions.There are no hometown discounts, especially when it's been indicated that the team would match offers and especially when a peer (Gordon Hayward) has gotten paid.

    Secondly, Cuban has made it very well known that he is building a contender for as long as Dirk has his legs to chase championships. He got a great player in Parsons and has done his job as an owner to make sure his team is the best it can be at the present time and in the future. In fact, he almost landed Dwight when he was a free agent as well. In my opinion as an executive, he's done a better job than Morey has of assembling a team and creating an atmosphere that is conducive to a winning team (coaching staff, players). Has he been able to coax the massive free agent signings in the past couple years? No. It most certainly isn't his fault for not putting the team in the best light though.

    Finally, Morey let/forced/shooed Lowry and Dragic to other teams in the NBA. He also overpaid for Lin and Asik as free agents. He also whiffed this free agency, period. Ariza is not a free agency win. He is a salve for a missing Parsons.

    So never did you mention in your previous post about the Rocket's being in a better place. You were simply complaining as a fan as opposed to providing any sort of reasonable analysis. I believe you called that drivel once. It is not on Parsons to take a below market value deal to save the team cap space when he has never had a contract that paid him fairly for his performance. So you were wrong at least 2 of the 3 points that you posted about before.

    Admit you're wrong and move on.

    PS: Thanks for the half assed "I messed up putting all my eggs in the Bosh basket. I'll try to pull a Mark Cuban and gear up for another free agent run soon" quote. Another year older for Dwight, a thinner bench, and a band aid for the gaping wound left at the 3, sure sounds like this upcoming season might be interesting. I hope for the best, but it sure as hell looks as if the Rockets screwed the pooch.

  • rockets best fan says 2 months ago

    @FSS

    I'd say that's pretty clear :lol:

  • feelingsupersonic says 2 months ago

    So ignore all the relevant information like definition of the phrase fair market value, comparable contracts of similar players, and ignore all other free agent signings but those of your favorite players.

    Looks like your bigger picture is simply ignoring the facts and trying to backtrack and wheedle your way into making your absolute nonsense statements look reasonable.

    What a joke.

    I beg you're pardon sir but I'm definitely not a joke nor are the things I write. Perhaps I just couldn't explain why the Rockets are in the right and in a better place by not matching Parsons' Dallas contract offer, maybe Morey's words from one of his interviews yesterday could shed light better:

    “When you have your core that you feel like can be the championship core you can really almost pay anything to anyone,” Morey said. “You’re just putting the final frosting on the championship cake.”

    “Until that point you will hurt your odds of winning the championship if you make moves that eliminate your chance to continue to improve. That’s sort of the issue with those mid-tier type contracts. They are great if they’re sort of the final piece. That’s why once you have Bosh and you have Chandler, paying Chandler anything is fine once you have Bosh. You can pay him a hundred million, it’d be fine. Now you have a team with that set of guys plus a young core around them and good role players. Now you’ve got a team that is going to go out there and maybe be the favorite or the top three to go win a championship. If you lock all that in prior to having your set that you feel like has great odds to winning the championship you literally are eliminating your odds of winning a championship. That is sort of what we felt like we were facing…We felt like matching [Parsons> would drop our championship odds in a big way because it would eliminate our ability to keep improving.”

  • YaoMan says 2 months ago

    I agree, Lin will take100% of his shots from the court.....but he's only gonna make 40% of them. :P

    I actually think he will shoot about the same percentage - he's second behind only Lebron in shooting percentage on drives and that's where he's most dangerous. However, because of what you alluded to earlier about his usage rate going up, he will have a lot more turnovers. I wish Lin luck in LA but he and Asik were the beginning of the reconstruct. Harden and Howard represents the upgraded version of both of them so it makes sense to dump both of them before their balloon payment year. In the end, it's just a business and Lin has no reason to be dissatisfied - he got paid 25mil. I'd say that is a sign of respect from Morey and the FO.

  • YaoMan says 2 months ago

    They do love their "logos" out there. West, D'Antoni (Pringles), Brown (Mr. Potato Head), and this guy....

    phil-jackson-colonel-sanders.jpg

    Now that was funny!

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    I think they will hire Phil Jackson.

    They do love their "logos" out there. West, D'Antoni (Pringles), Brown (Mr. Potato Head), and this guy....

    phil-jackson-colonel-sanders.jpg

  • rockets best fan says 2 months ago

    @JG

    totally agree

  • Steven says 2 months ago

    In all seriousness, it's going to depend greatly on who they bring in as a coach. Kobe, with his legs, probably can't handle an up-tempo, run-n-gun offense which is what Lin excels in. How do you balance that out? Who does he pick n roll with? Sacre? Hill?

    Hopefully, they can find a coach that can make it work. I wish him the best.

    I think they will hire Phil Jackson.
  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    In all seriousness, it's going to depend greatly on who they bring in as a coach. Kobe, with his legs, probably can't handle an up-tempo, run-n-gun offense which is what Lin excels in. How do you balance that out? Who does he pick n roll with? Sacre? Hill?

    Hopefully, they can find a coach that can make it work. I wish him the best.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    I agree, Lin will take100% of his shots from the court.....but he's only gonna make 40% of them. :P

    Ah crap.

    I-see-what-you-did-there.jpg

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    NO WAY JOHNNY. LIN'S GONNA SHOOT 100% PERCENT FROM THE COURT NEXT YEAR!!!

    But sadly only sub 80% from the charity stripe..

    I agree, Lin will take100% of his shots from the court.....but he's only gonna make 40% of them. :P

  • slick shoes says 2 months ago

    I'm of the opinion that he was brought in to score. The defense is going to be better as long as Chandler stays healthy enough to play and Parson's defensive rating with improve as a result. Dirk is going to have more space to isolate and avoid doubles by having Parsons on the court. Plus, it's another player than Ellis can pass to as opposed to taking an ill advised three.

    I just never really saw scoring as a problem with the mavs. A buddy of mine and I have a heated rivalry dating back to the mavs first championship so I have kept one eye on them simply for trash talking's sake. I am not claiming to be a mavs' expert by any means, but I do not see CP being the 1st or 2nd option in most scenarios which puts him right back in his all too familiar role here in Houston but for a lot more money.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    NO WAY JOHNNY. LIN'S GONNA SHOOT 100% PERCENT FROM THE COURT NEXT YEAR!!!

    But sadly only sub 80% from the charity stripe..

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    I like how Vince Carter and Shawn Marion are chopped liver here. Carter played great the last two years in Dallas and his diminished athleticism is probably equal to Parsons' peak.

    They have added size and youth at SF. Other than that, I'd say it's a wash.

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    I'd recommend reading about what makes updefensive rating and then realize whether it goes up or down is largely irrelevant for individual assessment.

    I'd venture to say Asik gets more rebounds than ever....largely because the guys chucking the ball are all clangers (except Anthony).

    Lin's USG rate will skyrocket, especially once Kobe goes down, which will give him volume, but his percentages will suffer.

    Take that to the bank.

    EDIT: clarification

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    Both Asik and Lin will both be starters next season so if their numbers don't go up, there is something wrong. There will also not be such a demand for Parsons to be a score first player giving him more time to focus defensively. Heads I win, tails you lose.

    I'm of the opinion that he was brought in to score. The defense is going to be better as long as Chandler stays healthy enough to play and Parson's defensive rating with improve as a result. Dirk is going to have more space to isolate and avoid doubles by having Parsons on the court. Plus, it's another player than Ellis can pass to as opposed to taking an ill advised three.

  • slick shoes says 2 months ago

    Edit: $100 says Parsons will improve his defense rating significantly in Dallas.

    Edit 2: $500 says Asik and Lin will improve their numbers significantly as well. There is something about the negative dynamics in Houston...personally, I'm leaning towards the coach and Harden.

    I feel really really bad for Howard.

    Both Asik and Lin will both be starters next season so if their numbers don't go up, there is something wrong. There will also not be such a demand for Parsons to be a score first player giving him more time to focus defensively. Heads I win, tails you lose.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    Parsons could have been greatful taken fair market value that the Rockets offered but that was not the case.

    FYI: Fair Market Value isn't what you peg it at. It's what the market decides. So in that case you are wrong and he shouldn't have been happy with anything less than he could get from any other team. ----------------Look, we are a bunch of guys talking basketball not economics. To be fair to those who really know market value covers many different types of markets and my guess NBA free agency is extremely volatile and players values very greatly from team to team and depending on how many big names are left plus with Parsons you will never get your return on that money which kind of proves the point I'm trying to make. There is a big picture so try to expand your view instead of focusing on a couple words.

    The onus on enticing Parsons to stay falls completely to the Rockets. If you want him, pay for him. The Rockets gambled letting him become a restricted free agent. Gordon Hayward's deal created a comp as to what fair market value was. Cuban simply decided to pay fair market value.-------------Cuban cannot get big name free agents so he has to overpay a non All Star, that's desperation.

    Funny how Morey snared mid tier players like Lin and Asik by over paying them... OH WAIT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID HE DIDN'T DO.-----------Morey traded for Harden and recruited Howard, two players that matter here in our discussion but you may not understand that.

    So ignore all the relevant information like definition of the phrase fair market value, comparable contracts of similar players, and ignore all other free agent signings but those of your favorite players.

    Looks like your bigger picture is simply ignoring the facts and trying to backtrack and wheedle your way into making your absolute nonsense statements look reasonable.

    What a joke.

  • Cooper says 2 months ago Asik wasn't overpaid. He'll get more money from the Pells next year.
  • feelingsupersonic says 2 months ago

    Parsons could have been greatful taken fair market value that the Rockets offered but that was not the case.

    FYI: Fair Market Value isn't what you peg it at. It's what the market decides. So in that case you are wrong and he shouldn't have been happy with anything less than he could get from any other team. ----------------Look, we are a bunch of guys talking basketball not economics. To be fair to those who really know market value covers many different types of markets and my guess NBA free agency is extremely volatile and players values very greatly from team to team and depending on how many big names are left plus with Parsons you will never get your return on that money which kind of proves the point I'm trying to make. There is a big picture so try to expand your view instead of focusing on a couple words.

    The onus on enticing Parsons to stay falls completely to the Rockets. If you want him, pay for him. The Rockets gambled letting him become a restricted free agent. Gordon Hayward's deal created a comp as to what fair market value was. Cuban simply decided to pay fair market value.-------------Cuban cannot get big name free agents so he has to overpay a non All Star, that's desperation.

    Funny how Morey snared mid tier players like Lin and Asik by over paying them... OH WAIT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID HE DIDN'T DO.-----------Morey traded for Harden and recruited Howard, two players that matter here in our discussion but you may not understand that.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    You really didn't process what I wrote. Anyway, here is part of it if this is what you really think is important: Good for Chandler Parsons, he got the biggest paycheck possible. Who doesn't want the most amount of money but I shouldn't have to say all that, I'm not here to hold hands. I'm not sensitive sports fan, I get tired of that crap.

    Parsons could have been greatful taken fair market value that the Rockets offered but that was not the case.

    FYI: Fair Market Value isn't what you peg it at. It's what the market decides. So in that case you are wrong and he shouldn't have been happy with anything less than he could get from any other team. The onus on enticing Parsons to stay falls completely to the Rockets. If you want him, pay for him. The Rockets gambled letting him become a restricted free agent. Gordon Hayward's deal created a comp as to what fair market value was. Cuban simply decided to pay fair market value.

    Funny how Morey snared mid tier players like Lin and Asik by over paying them... OH WAIT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID HE DIDN'T DO.

  • feelingsupersonic says 2 months ago You really didn't process what I wrote. Anyway, here is part of it if this is what you really think is important: Good for Chandler Parsons, he got the biggest paycheck possible. Who doesn't want the most amount of money but I shouldn't have to say all that, I'm not here to hold hands. I'm not sensitive sports fan, I get tired of that crap.

    As to a fair contract, we don't know but I know track records. Morey doesn't rob players and I'd bet what Morey offered was fair but Fagan found something better.

    Why don't you read everything I wrote and try to understand it instead of picking a couple things out of context.
  • bladad says 2 months ago

    What is fair market value for a young guy averaging his numbers? he got what Hayward got.

    I know you would have turned down the money...

    Also, how do we know how much we offered him?

    "Throughout the whole process they pretty much told me they were going to match everything. I understand its a business. I understand they had to do what they thought was best for their organization. It definitely caught me off-guard a little bit." -- Parsons

    Sounds like a NYK/Lin situation.

  • bladad says 2 months ago

    You actually did not acknowledge that some players do care more about rings than money, except, in your response above sort of in my opinion. Not that it matters. Nobody is absolutely right or wrong here. Just pointing out semantics.

    Secondly, Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki have given up tens of millions of dollars over their career in pursuit of rings. Nowitzki this season could easily have earned a Bosh type contract but he's committed to being a Maverick for life and chose to give Cuban more leeway with the salary cap. Good for Nowitzki. However, Nowitzki just signed a 3 year, $30 million contract and Cuban is paying Parsons $45 million over those same 3 years. I wonder if Nowitzki, if he knew in advance that Cuban would use the extra money on Parsons, would have committed to such a big paycut?

    Tim Duncan clearly should have been paid $10's and $10's of millions more over his career but instead he chose rings. Yes, he also has made a lot of money prior to that. Still, that says a lot about a person's character when they want the ring much more than $25 million or more in their pocket.

    That's why I will ALWAYS respect Tim Duncan even though I am a die-hard Rockets fan.

    I think the perspective changes when you've won a ring and can't seem to make it back that you realize the difficulty of playing for and winning a championship. Also, Parson's was on his rookie contract and was playing his ass off. At some point he does need to be paid for being ridiculously underpaid for the last two years of his contract.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 2 months ago What is fair market value for a young guy averaging his numbers? he got what Hayward got.

    I know you would have turned down the money...

    Also, how do we know how much we offered him?
  • bladad says 2 months ago

    Sleeping on the Mavericks, come on now. No way they're going to be a top tier team in my opinion but there's always that slim chance they get the right matchup in the playoffs and a home court advantage team sleeps on them, Dirk and co. get rolling and because they have Carlisle they maybe get to the Conference Finals but everything and I mean everything has to fall into place. I wouldn't be surprised if we see them in the playoffs as the 4 versus 5 matchup.

    That Dallas team now is much better than the Dallas team last year just looking at the roster improvements. And Dallas took the spurs to Game 7, something Lebron and the Heat couldn't do. That team looks super dangerous. Dirk is probably going to get a lot more space to work with with Parsons raining threes from all over the court.

    Either way, this works out well for Parsons. He gets his money and he still gets the space to work with defenses keying in on Dirk and Monta.

  • feelingsupersonic says 2 months ago Parsons could have been greatful taken fair market value that the Rockets offered but that was not the case. He is a young guy who had been playing for peanuts and was looking to get paid as much as possible to the detriment of anything else, good for him. His agent Fagan and Cuban are buddies so it should come as no real surprise that when Cuban struck out again for the 4th time (imagine how bad it is being a Mavs fan) Fagan had him covered and vice versa.

    Think about what you read and why Parsons said that. If you believe that at face value then we live in different worlds. To me Parsons saying he was offended is him repeating what he was prompted to say by Fagan because it's all about the money and that's cool, it's business right.

    Imagine the team you are a fan of repeatedly misses on free agents, even as the team wins a championship and the owner keeps space for additions to no avail, and in the end has no choice but to claim victory by taking on a sub All Star small forward by luring him with a max contract. I'm glad here in Houston we get big names and that Morey doesn't snare mid tier players by over paying them.
  • kdo says 2 months ago

    Seems like Parsons was offended, which I don't blame him for.

    Cuban was more realistic. Morey can't keep shooting for the moon, and alienate his current team, which is what I've suspected all along.

  • rockets best fan says 2 months ago

    @JG

    Parsons may not be pissed with us, but I'm pissed with him. I'm still not over the DALLAS thing :lol:

  • feelingsupersonic says 2 months ago Excluding the lock out shortened season it looks like Tyson Chandler averages about 56 or 57 games a season since 2008.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 2 months ago If Howard gets hurt again(back) we will miss the playoffs. You can say that about every team.
  • feelingsupersonic says 2 months ago

    Sleeping on the Mavericks, come on now. No way they're going to be a top tier team in my opinion but there's always that slim chance they get the right matchup in the playoffs and a home court advantage team sleeps on them, Dirk and co. get rolling and because they have Carlisle they maybe get to the Conference Finals but everything and I mean everything has to fall into place. I wouldn't be surprised if we see them in the playoffs as the 4 versus 5 matchup.

  • Steven says 2 months ago Once Chandler gets hurt (again), they will have no C.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 2 months ago They nearly beat the champs. Are people sleeping on the Mavs?
  • Steven says 2 months ago He will average 15 points a game. Dallas will get knocked out first round. Good for him to get paid like a "star". Like Morey said, he signed the most untradable contract ever.
  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    Here is a link to that Berman interview: LINK

    ...and here are a few exerpts...

    “I’m very thankful to Houston for giving me a chance.The first 3 years of my career have been unbelievable. I have nothing but respect for them doing this a year early. Have nothing but good memories there which I love. The fans have been so supportive and my teammates have been unbelievable. Coach (Kevin) McHale, coach (J.B.) Bickerstaff, they’re family to me. It’s going to be sad to go. I wish them nothing but the best of luck.My relationship with Coach McHale is unbelievable, closest I’ve ever been to a coach with him. (Rockets CEO) Tad Brown is unbelievable, the staff, they are all tremendous.”

    “I viewed myself as an up and coming star in this league.They (The Mavericks) were the ones that made the offer and look at me like a franchise-max player. That’s what I wanted. I want to be a priority.I want a bigger role. (Mavericks owner) Mark Cuban and Coach (Rick) Carlisle made that clear to me, that’s how they view me and that’s what I’ll be in Dallas. I couldn’t be more excited for the opportunity.”

    “I hope there’s no hard feelings,” Parsons said. “At the end of the day it’s a business and I had to do what’s best for my own individual career. I have nothing but love and the utmost respect for Houston and the organization, especially the fans. I connected with them right away. I’ll miss them a lot.”

    A couple of thoughts. One, that first paragraph pokes a hole in the "don't treat players like assets" stuff. I don't sense any underlying angst there. Two, the 3rd quote rolled out the old cliche...."it's a business".

    No hard feelings, Chandler.

  • rocketrick says 2 months ago

    While I did acknowledge that some players DO care more about rings than money, it's often veterans that already made ample money through the years, or stars that supplement significant income through endoresements. So even when they do care more about rings than money, name me one person that has sacrificed 10's of millions in a single year to pursue rings? It's often only shaving off a couple of million here or there in a single year to alleviate some cap space.


    You actually did not acknowledge that some players do care more about rings than money, except, in your response above sort of in my opinion. Not that it matters. Nobody is absolutely right or wrong here. Just pointing out semantics.

    Secondly, Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki have given up tens of millions of dollars over their career in pursuit of rings. Nowitzki this season could easily have earned a Bosh type contract but he's committed to being a Maverick for life and chose to give Cuban more leeway with the salary cap. Good for Nowitzki. However, Nowitzki just signed a 3 year, $30 million contract and Cuban is paying Parsons $45 million over those same 3 years. I wonder if Nowitzki, if he knew in advance that Cuban would use the extra money on Parsons, would have committed to such a big paycut?

    By the way, Parsons is quoted on Mark Berman's radio show as saying he considers himself to be a Max Franchise player and that he wanted to be treated as a Max Franchise guy.

    I enjoyed having Parsons on our team and he was clearly one of my top 2-3 players. But I never saw him as a Max Franchise player, not yet. Good for him, he deserved his payday and we move on. The Rockets clearly made the right choice in choosing not to become the second act of the Orlando Magic when D12 was hamstrung by having overpaid players surrounding him that basically choked off any possibility of meaningful trades and opportunities to win rings. That is precisely what would have happened if the Rockets matched Parsons. He had a basically non-tradeable contract so the Rockets would have been married to D12, Harden and Parsons for the next 3 seasons with very little to no flexibility to make significant moves to improve the roster around them with the right role players.

    Tim Duncan clearly should have been paid $10's and $10's of millions more over his career but instead he chose rings. Yes, he also has made a lot of money prior to that. Still, that says a lot about a person's character when they want the ring much more than $25 million or more in their pocket.

    That's why I will ALWAYS respect Tim Duncan even though I am a die-hard Rockets fan.
  • rocketrick says 2 months ago

    No one, I mean no one, puts winning above getting paid reasonably. Even the Dirk's and Tim's, despite taking pay cuts, still get paid reasonably..especially since they've been earning millions already in the past. Parsons is only just entering the millions territory.


    Like I said, I totally disagree with your premise that money is always more important than a chance at winning rings.

    I'm just responding to what you said specifically in your comment.
  • kdo says 2 months ago

    You are right, sir. kdo, sorry about the condescension...I give what I get.

    Here is a link to Morey's interview this morning if anyone wants to check it out. LINK

    My apologies as well. I do like good discourse, especially with like-minded individuals, but I tend be defensive at times.

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    Not really sure what the point is here. Just move on. In fact I would like to see this get back track if there is any more posting, thank you in advance.

    You are right, sir. kdo, sorry about the condescension...I give what I get.

    Here is a link to Morey's interview this morning if anyone wants to check it out. LINK

  • feelingsupersonic says 2 months ago

    Not really sure what the point is here. Just move on. In fact I would like to see this get back track if there is any more posting, thank you in advance.

  • kdo says 2 months ago

    I guess I must come across as really dumb. Did you think I needed to be told players only have so much time to earn money? I guess I can respond in kind by telling you, and assuming you're not smart enough to realize, that they could actually get other jobs after the NBA. How they handle their life is their own business, but it's not my problem if they don't know how to handle money, plan for the future, etc.

    I would refer you to the story of the ant and the grasshopper, but I'm guessing that just doesn't mesh with your worldview. Why am I even bothering with this? :unsure:

    You asked why a player needed to worry about money in the NBA. I responded that beyond their time in the NBA, which is an unknown, what most players eventually care about is maximizing earnings for their future.

    Even if you factor in all the players that become coaches, or media correspondents, or savvy investments, that success stories of those that retired from the NBA represent a tiny fraction of players.

    So yes, when I said players worry about money, you say nope, I then provide justification for it, and then you assume it's easy for players to find income after retirement. I can name as many bankrupcies as success stories.

    Oh and thanks for the condescension. For your next trick, will it be ad hominem?

  • feelingsupersonic says 2 months ago

    He did choose to make money. I don't fault him for that. Who knows what Houston offered him. They might have low balled him for all we know. Morey gambled that nobody would like him enough to do what Dallas did.



    Supposedly Parsons was in meetings all day with the Rockets before that night he signed with Dallas. To be a fly on the wall when Morey, Parsons and Fagan met to discuss Parsons' future would have given us much insight we have no way of knowing. I do know one thing, Fagan gets his clients paid so in sure he was pushing for Dallas and I can't blame him.
  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    Everyone's standard of living is different, or do you not realize that most basketball player's life cycle is only a decade? You'd be lucky to continue earning a paycheck in the NBA after 35. But once you retire, the money you earn has to sustain you for the rest of your life. If I were generous and suggest that you could theoretically live frugally and shave off your life savings gradually, but the reality of all humans is that once you reach a certain standard of living, the resistance to drop down is there.

    So yes, for an average NBA player, they do worry about money. From providing for their family to sustaining their standard of living for the next 50 years after they retire.

    As for your next argument, that's a difference of opinion, so again I'll just agree to disagree as I can see empirical evidence for both sides. I suppose we can just conclude that it depends on the person. I am of the opinion that Parsons would be more motivated with where he's at currently.

    I guess I must come across as really dumb. Did you think I needed to be told players only have so much time to earn money? I guess I can respond in kind by telling you, and assuming you're not smart enough to realize, that they could actually get other jobs after the NBA. How they handle their life is their own business, but it's not my problem if they don't know how to handle money, plan for the future, etc.

    I would refer you to the story of the ant and the grasshopper, but I'm guessing that just doesn't mesh with your worldview. Why am I even bothering with this? :unsure:

    It's kind of funny how we're reacting to Parsons' departure....imagine how Miami fans must feel. They have to figure out a way to get excited about Bosh, Deng, McBob, Granger, and Dwyane Wade resting his knees.

  • kdo says 2 months ago

    I am struggling to understand how your point, which is valid in and of itself, pertains to a guy earning $900,000+ per year in addition to his shoe contract, modelling gigs, etc. You want me to believe he is worried about money? If he is, it's not the kind of worry that your theory implies.

    One could easily argue that once he gets the millions he will lose his focus on basketball as he now has the means to distract himself with all kinds of other things and all that hard work has finally paid off, he has made it, and can relax at last.

    I disagree that worrying about money is a direct causation that diminishes one's game. In reality, like I said before, it is the opposite. Everyone loves a player in a contract year--they're more motivated than usual.

    Everyone's standard of living is different, or do you not realize that most basketball player's life cycle is only a decade? You'd be lucky to continue earning a paycheck in the NBA after 35. But once you retire, the money you earn has to sustain you for the rest of your life. If I were generous and suggest that you could theoretically live frugally and shave off your life savings gradually, but the reality of all humans is that once you reach a certain standard of living, the resistance to drop down is there.

    So yes, for an average NBA player, they do worry about money. From providing for their family to sustaining their standard of living for the next 50 years after they retire.

    As for your next argument, that's a difference of opinion, so again I'll just agree to disagree as I can see empirical evidence for both sides. I suppose we can just conclude that it depends on the person. I am of the opinion that Parsons would be more motivated with where he's at currently.

  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    While I did acknowledge that some players DO care more about rings than money, it's often veterans that already made ample money through the years, or stars that supplement significant income through endoresements. So even when they do care more about rings than money, name me one person that has sacrificed 10's of millions in a single year to pursue rings? It's often only shaving off a couple of million here or there in a single year to alleviate some cap space.

    Nobody works for free, nobody works for unreasonable pay, heck nobody works for less than 80% of their market value if I'm being generous here.

    Also, it's a matter of opinion on a player's effort, so I'll agree to disgagree and withhold further discussion on that.

    While I agree that good pay doesn't necesarily mean good production, as it's obvious there's more dynamics involved. But I will stand by the fact that good pay alleviates a lot of unnecesary distractions and allows one to focus on more basketball. Whether that translates into better production is dependent on individual talent and team dynamics.

    I guess I should have worded it better and really suggest that bad pay or focusing/worrying about one's finances is a direct causation that diminishes one's game. This is true in everyday business or professional sports.

    As for the besties point and winning, I think most players, when they reach the NBA, and have experienced it for a year, realize their place. Teaming up with besties, and sacrificing significant salary to win, just doesn't happen often...not for tens of millions over how many years. These are more the exception than the norm, and expecting a player like Parsons to give up a lucrative salary just to stay with besties is not going to cut it. Heck if I were Parsons bestie, and seeing/evaluating the reality of the sitiuation (chances of championships/winning), I'd tell him to take the money and run.

    I am struggling to understand how your point, which is valid in and of itself, pertains to a guy earning $900,000+ per year in addition to his shoe contract, modelling gigs, etc. You want me to believe he is worried about money? If he is, it's not the kind of worry that your theory implies.

    One could easily argue that once he gets the millions he will lose his focus on basketball as he now has the means to distract himself with all kinds of other things and all that hard work has finally paid off, he has made it, and can relax at last.

    I disagree that worrying about money is a direct causation that diminishes one's game. In reality, like I said before, it is the opposite. Everyone loves a player in a contract year--they're more motivated than usual.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 2 months ago He did choose to make money. I don't fault him for that. Who knows what Houston offered him. They might have low balled him for all we know. Morey gambled that nobody would like him enough to do what Dallas did.
  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    We did lose him . We could have kept him if we wanted. It's not like he was an UFA and he spurned us. He was an RFA and Morey made the decision to let him walk. I agree with the decision.

    We just aren't seeing eye to eye here. He had to know that when he signed that contract it was very, very likely he wasn't coming back. Whatever, it's semantics...no big deal

  • kdo says 2 months ago

    Kdo, as a very long-time NBA fan, I just totally disagree with your post. There is ample evidence that numerous players cared more about rings than the money. In some cases, they were able to have both, rings and the money.

    Anyway, when you were saying that Parsons didn't put out full effort in the Playoffs, I literally fell off my chair laughing. Thanks for that.

    While I did acknowledge that some players DO care more about rings than money, it's often veterans that already made ample money through the years, or stars that supplement significant income through endoresements. So even when they do care more about rings than money, name me one person that has sacrificed 10's of millions in a single year to pursue rings? It's often only shaving off a couple of million here or there in a single year to alleviate some cap space.

    Nobody works for free, nobody works for unreasonable pay, heck nobody works for less than 80% of their market value if I'm being generous here.

    Also, it's a matter of opinion on a player's effort, so I'll agree to disgagree and withhold further discussion on that.

    @kdo, much of what you say is stating the obvious. However, your analogy of good pay means good production does not hold much water in the world of sports. There is a reason the term "playing in a contract year" is known by all and carries the stigma that, in all likelihood, once you sign that big contract your production immediately declines. In fact, it has already been mentioned in regards to our own signing: Trevor Ariza.

    The bottom line is this. All players must have some cursory understanding of the CBA, or agents that can explain it to them. If a group of guys who are all besties, and love each other, and all the other stuff that is getting tossed around truly wanted to stay together and win a championship then they wouldn't do what Parsons just did. Period. Paint it however you want, but the writing is on the wall.

    While I agree that good pay doesn't necesarily mean good production, as it's obvious there's more dynamics involved. But I will stand by the fact that good pay alleviates a lot of unnecesary distractions and allows one to focus on more basketball. Whether that translates into better production is dependent on individual talent and team dynamics.

    I guess I should have worded it better and really suggest that bad pay or focusing/worrying about one's finances is a direct causation that diminishes one's game. This is true in everyday business or professional sports.

    As for the besties point and winning, I think most players, when they reach the NBA, and have experienced it for a year, realize their place. Teaming up with besties, and sacrificing significant salary to win, just doesn't happen often...not for tens of millions over how many years. These are more the exception than the norm, and expecting a player like Parsons to give up a lucrative salary just to stay with besties is not going to cut it. Heck if I were Parsons bestie, and seeing/evaluating the reality of the sitiuation (chances of championships/winning), I'd tell him to take the money and run.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 2 months ago We did lose him . We could have kept him if we wanted. It's not like he was an UFA and he spurned us. He was an RFA and Morey made the decision to let him walk. I agree with the decision.
  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    @kdo, much of what you say is stating the obvious. However, your analogy of good pay means good production does not hold much water in the world of sports. There is a reason the term "playing in a contract year" is known by all and carries the stigma that, in all likelihood, once you sign that big contract your production immediately declines. In fact, it has already been mentioned in regards to our own signing: Trevor Ariza.

    The bottom line is this. All players must have some cursory understanding of the CBA, or agents that can explain it to them. If a group of guys who are all besties, and love each other, and all the other stuff that is getting tossed around truly wanted to stay together and win a championship then they wouldn't do what Parsons just did. Period. Paint it however you want, but the writing is on the wall.

    @TTDN, I'm not throwing in some parting shots at Parsons. I've always liked him and thought he was a solid player. You make it sound like I'm implying he's a serial murderer or something like that. It was a thought that crossed my mind and I thought I'd share it. I'm not trying to disparage the man.

    Diction is telling. Saying we "lost" Parsons is telling. Parsons moved on. Parsons set his priorities and acted on them. Had we gotten Bosh or Melo perhaps Morey matches. I don't think we lost Parsons. He chose to sign that offer sheet and Morey was right to let him walk. I don't know what Harden has to do with this...I'm not nit-picking. Sorry I questioned the "golden boy".....I should know better. Seriously, re-read that paragraph I wrote...especially the last sentence. It was just a fleeting thought that apparently I should have not shared. Sorry, didn't mean to spur conversation. :P

  • rocketrick says 2 months ago Kdo, as a very long-time NBA fan, I just totally disagree with your post. There is ample evidence that numerous players cared more about rings than the money. In some cases, they were able to have both, rings and the money.

    Anyway, when you were saying that Parsons didn't put out full effort in the Playoffs, I literally fell off my chair laughing. Thanks for that.
  • feelingsupersonic says 2 months ago I agree timetodie. There is no way we can know what Howard meant and it may have nothing to do with any of this. Parsons was a good Rocket and if Morey retained him it would have been a sign of desperation which Morey is not. Also, in my estimation, Howard's dedication last year was excellent and he has really begun to enter a mental prime (which is when superstars win their championships, not their physical primes). As for Harden, the man is a thinker and doesn't show emotion so when fans try to analyze his body language all I can do is shake my head. Let's not forget Harden is a 24 year old All NBA First Team Guard and he is a Rocket for years to come.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 2 months ago Every player has interests off the court. Why try and insinuate something about parsons now that he's gone. I mean does anyone think Harden tries on defense? I don't. Come on we can nitpick anybody's game or their priorities. We lost parsons because we wouldn't overpay him. It is what it is.
  • kdo says 2 months ago

    My second thought is about the exit interviews where Dwight said (more or less) that we need to all be on the same page and all be about one thing--winning. If you aren't, then you aren't welcome here. What if that was a factor here? Let's try to remove emotion and conjecture for a second and just look at Parsons.....I'm not accusing him ofnot being dedicated to winning, but he sure does seem to have a lot of other interests that occupy his focus and attention. It's probably nothing, but it crossed my mind. I'll take off my tin foil hat now.

    if Parsons thought about the money only, I wouldn't blame him. But it's not like it's money or winning, it's both. Every NBA player wants to get paid, and win.

    No one, I mean no one, puts winning above getting paid reasonably. Even the Dirk's and Tim's, despite taking pay cuts, still get paid reasonably..especially since they've been earning millions already in the past. Parsons is only just entering the millions territory.

    Basically, as an employer, you always try to aim to pay your employees enough, to a point so that they don't focus on money anymore, and just focus on the work. When you have employees that worry about finances, you lose productivity and efficiency.

    Undoubtedly, Parsons focused on maximizing his earnings, and he has a right to, from maximizing his offensive rating, and being mindful of injuries...thereby not pushing as hard as he should during the playoffs to win, so he'll get paid during free agency. But I wouldn't blame the team's first round exit on him. What about Harden and Howard who are paid max contracts? Admittedly, Howard showed that winning passion intermittently, but Harden's passion...if I were to graph his passion on winning, it would be a straight horizontal line, it's like he just see's himself as an employee, no more no less, as opposed to treating the organization like his own.

    But I bet you if Houston matched the Parsons offer, he would immediately improve in strides next season, because the thought of money is now gone. He can focus on winning.

    It's typical human behavior/priorities, it's the same thing in every business. If you can pay your employees enough so that they don't need to think about money, then you have the potential to have an employee that will be passionate about your company's goals and direction, better productivity, better efficiency.

  • rocketrick says 2 months ago

    I doubt Beverley can really improve on that. My bet just better shooting %, and team defense. Hopefully Cannan can become a decent 6th man and playmaker off the bench.


    Don't forget about Troy Daniels. He could play the 6th man role as he had his moments in the Portland series.
  • thejohnnygold says 2 months ago

    Just a few thoughts.....Morey has been saying the way we get better is to improve our defense. Knowing that Parsons' 15 ppg is fairly easy to replace (especially with someone who can knock down threes) swapping him for a very good defender makes sense in the grand scheme. I mean, would it be so terrible to give Parsons' shots to Jones in the post (He ranked 26th in the league according to synergy scoring 50% of the time and drew a foul 1 out of every 8 times), Dwight, Harden, Ariza, D-Mo? I think after 20 or so games most people will find they prefer Ariza to Parsons as a better fit for this team.

    My second thought is about the exit interviews where Dwight said (more or less) that we need to all be on the same page and all be about one thing--winning. If you aren't, then you aren't welcome here. What if that was a factor here? Let's try to remove emotion and conjecture for a second and just look at Parsons.....I'm not accusing him ofnot being dedicated to winning, but he sure does seem to have a lot of other interests that occupy his focus and attention. It's probably nothing, but it crossed my mind. I'll take off my tin foil hat now.

    My third thought is on how much I love all the Mavs fans justifying that massive overpay for Parsons by piggy-backing his contract with Dirk's and saying "it's not Parsons for $15M. It's Dirk + Parsons for $25M...that's a great deal! Cuban's a genius!"

    I guess if you think that's a good deal then Cuban would look like a genius to you.........relativity.

  • Buckko says 2 months ago I doubt Beverley can really improve on that. My bet just better shooting %, and team defense. Hopefully Cannan can become a decent 6th man and playmaker off the bench.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 2 months ago Hopefully Bev can take a massive step forward as a playmaker. Hardens the only one we have left.
  • Buckko says 2 months ago I got to admit this probably hurts Beverley the most. People don't really acknowledge this much, but Lin, parsons, and Beverley were best friends and losing both of them in a couple days.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 2 months ago Are you a glue guy if you say you're a glue guy?

    Mark Berman: Pat Beverley: "I spoke to (Chandler) that day he signed the offer sheet with Dallas. He was hyped. I spoke to him at 5:30 this morning (in Taiwan) and he told me they are not going to match. Of course it's tough. I'm human. Chandler is like a brother to me. Me and Chandler were like the glue that kept it together. It's time 4me to step up 2the plate, provide more offensively and defensively to help our team. I'm confident. I think Dwight's confident. I think James is confident that we'll get some key pieces and try to make a run at this" Twitter - See more at: http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm#sthash.bAfcm7Uh.dpuf
  • Cooper says 2 months ago

    You do realize that kyries max kicks in next year, meaning if they don't trade wiggins by the deadline, there would be no way in hell for the cavs to get kyrie, love, and lebron.

    Varajoe expires, if they could dump bennet on someone and renounce Thompson they would be close to having enough space.

  • kdo says 2 months ago

    You do realize that kyries max kicks in next year, meaning if they don't trade wiggins by the deadline, there would be no way in hell for the cavs to get kyrie, love, and lebron.

    If a player, especially a star player, wants to go somewhere...they'll get there. This is a player's league.

    Losing parsons hurts and while it was an overpay Im not sure how we get a player of his caliber this offseason. I think the flexibility in this case is overrated because its not like someone wouldn't take parsons for free in a trade if we needed to shed cap.

    Parsons d rating suffered because he stopped trying, he wasn't coving for anyone. Silly to say Ariza will have the same problem without him even donning a jersey yet.

    Asik and lins numbers will go up but only because of more minutes. Howard is a much better center than Asik and Harden a much better lead guard than Lin they both wanted to be starters and will on other teams. Not much could be done to salvage that situation.

    That said need something big through trade or rest of the cap space cleared, Ariza barely covers parsons production and we have minimal depth across the board.

    Ever wonder why Parsons stopped trying? Because no matter how much effort you put in, if opposing teams cut through the gap that Harden creates...over and over and over again...really, anyone would be frustrated, and would simply focus on offense.

    Ariza is going to feel the same thing, maybe not the first year because the initial motivation and excitement is there when joining a new team...but undoubtedly, he'll succumb to the same gaps Harden generates, IF Harden doesn't imrpove, which I really really hope he does.

  • Cooper says 2 months ago

    Losing parsons hurts and while it was an overpay Im not sure how we get a player of his caliber this offseason. I think the flexibility in this case is overrated because its not like someone wouldn't take parsons for free in a trade if we needed to shed cap.

    Parsons d rating suffered because he stopped trying, he wasn't coving for anyone. Silly to say Ariza will have the same problem without him even donning a jersey yet.

    Asik and lins numbers will go up but only because of more minutes. Howard is a much better center than Asik and Harden a much better lead guard than Lin they both wanted to be starters and will on other teams. Not much could be done to salvage that situation.

    That said need something big through trade or rest of the cap space cleared, Ariza barely covers parsons production and we have minimal depth across the board.

  • Buckko says 2 months ago Well unless our young bloods improve a lot, we'll be lucky to break even. Eh. If the harden Howard era is a dud, the rockets can tread water for 2 years for KD in 2016.
  • Buckko says 2 months ago

    And the Rockets will clearly have Kevin Love on our team for just a few months.

    Kevin Love is going to be a Cleveland Cavalier one way or the other next season and nobody, not even the LA Lakers, Boston Celtics, NY Knicks, or the NBA commissioner can prevent that.

    It is what it is.......

    So why should the Rockets waste assets for someone that clearly isn't going to be here?

    You do realize that kyries max kicks in next year, meaning if they don't trade wiggins by the deadline, there would be no way in hell for the cavs to get kyrie, love, and lebron.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 2 months ago The offseason isn't over yet. Let's hope there's more planned.
  • kdo says 2 months ago

    So let's summarize:

    We lost Parsons, Lin, Asik, and 1st & 2nd round picks...didn't get Bosh, Melo, or Lowry

    Added only Trevor Ariza.

    You guys really think he's a better defender than Parsons? Look up Parsons defensive rating on his first and second year. It only dropped because he was covering for Harden.

    If Harden doesn't improve on his defenses, Ariza will succumb to the same issues...

    ...no net improvement whatsoever.

    Edit: $100 says Parsons will improve his defense rating significantly in Dallas.

    Edit 2: $500 says Asik and Lin will improve their numbers significantly as well. There is something about the negative dynamics in Houston...personally, I'm leaning towards the coach and Harden.

    I feel really really bad for Howard.

  • feelingsupersonic says 2 months ago I think it will be fine. I am glad they aren't sacrificing flexibility for Chandler Parsons who wouldn't be much more than an overpaid placeholder.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 2 months ago Looks like we're not matching parsons.
  • feelingsupersonic says 2 months ago

    @Rahat
    It could be worse. It could be Luther Head.


    Or Brad Miller back from the rocking chair!
  • Steven says 2 months ago @Rahat
    It could be worse. It could be Luther Head.
  • rocketrick says 2 months ago

    I haven't followed the Cav's situation closely, but, as we know from hard experience this last week, signing a third max contract is not an easy prospect, especially if the Cavs' won't give up Wiggins. And if we land Love mid-season, we'll have his Bird rights and the ability to offer more money over five years.


    Oh my God, I would absolutely kill to have Kevin Love on this roster! Are you kidding me!

    However, reality sits in. Bosh just spurned us and we ended up with Ariza and some other pieces to be named later.

    If the Rockets go after Love, it will require ALL of our key assets other than D12 and Harden.

    And when Love spurns us, as I am quite certain he will when he joins Lebron and the Cavaliers, the Rockets will simply be held high and dry with absolutely no further ammunition while the D12 and Harden tandem withers away..........
  • Johnny Rocket says 2 months ago

    I haven't followed the Cav's situation closely, but, as we know from hard experience this last week, signing a third max contract is not an easy prospect, especially if the Cavs' won't give up Wiggins. And if we land Love mid-season, we'll have his Bird rights and the ability to offer more money over five years.

  • rocketrick says 2 months ago

    Rahat--it seems that you have not only come to terms with Ariza--as a roleplayer, not as the primary creator--but you also seem a bit more positive about the whole "improving the bench" idea as a way of moving forward. Granted, we'd all rather have Bosh or Anthony, but it is nice to have a legitimate "three and D" guy off the bench. I think we are a 56-57 win team now, which is pretty close to becoming a real contender.

    And Ariza is a way of improving the team while still maintaining flexibility, in that Ariza will be a desired commodity on that contract. If Love is still available in December, the Rox can put forward a deal focused on Jones, Ariza, and the NO pick, which is maybe the best Minn. will be able to do.


    And the Rockets will clearly have Kevin Love on our team for just a few months.

    Kevin Love is going to be a Cleveland Cavalier one way or the other next season and nobody, not even the LA Lakers, Boston Celtics, NY Knicks, or the NBA commissioner can prevent that.

    It is what it is.......

    So why should the Rockets waste assets for someone that clearly isn't going to be here?
  • Johnny Rocket says 2 months ago

    Rahat--it seems that you have not only come to terms with Ariza--as a roleplayer, not as the primary creator--but you also seem a bit more positive about the whole "improving the bench" idea as a way of moving forward. Granted, we'd all rather have Bosh or Anthony, but it is nice to have a legitimate "three and D" guy off the bench. I think we are a 56-57 win team now, which is pretty close to becoming a real contender.

    And Ariza is a way of improving the team while still maintaining flexibility, in that Ariza will be a desired commodity on that contract. If Love is still available in December, the Rox can put forward a deal focused on Jones, Ariza, and the NO pick, which is maybe the best Minn. will be able to do.

  • rocketrick says 2 months ago Dude, it totally sucks for having to sing Trevor Ariza's positives at this point instead of Chris Bosh's.

    It is what it is.

    Still, Morey absolutely made the right play not knowing for certain which free agents would actually hit the market when they did. Bosh was so obvious the perfect missing piece for this roster.

    Anyway, that was then, this is now.

    The Rockets, in my opinion, still have to find a way to get a difference maker Stretch 4.

    Parsons (assuming he is re-signed which I do believe the Rockets will match) and Ariza are much too undersized for some of the Playoff quality teams in the West.

    I expect this to be a continuing process after Bosh chose to sell out rather than chase rings.

    I can't totally blame him for that, but jeez, how much money do you really need to be happy?

    A couple more rings don't matter, really? Bosh, you are now clearly just a Golden Girl.............

    Anyway, back to what is more important........the Rockets must still find ways to improve over last season's roster as the D12/Harden tandem is clearly on the clock.