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Should the Rockets trade Jeremy Lin?

Less than six months ago, before he played a single minute, Jeremy Lin was the most popular basketball player Houston had since Yao Ming retired. He was set to be the Rockets “franchise” player—at least for the 2012-13 season—without any real elite skill or All-Star caliber ability.

In this new role, with new responsibilities hanging heavy over his head, Lin would suddenly transform into the nightly focus for opposing defenses, an answer to “who should take the last shot?,” and, most significantly, someone charismatic enough to convince casual fans who can afford it that season tickets might actually be a pretty good idea.

But as Grantland’s Zach Lowe pointed out earlier this week, even before Daryl Morey and Sam Presti blindsided the basketball universe by exchanging some stuff for James Harden and some other stuff, the Rockets didn’t expect to get Lin from the Knicks. They wanted him—and they obviously prepared for what might happen should they get him—but anything other than “delivering an offer sheet will give New York’s front office a major headache!” didn’t qualify as a probable conclusion for Morey or his staff.

Of course the Knicks would match their offer! Right?

A little more than a quarter of the way through this season, after watching Lin struggle and Harden thrive as best he can beside a struggling point guard, we’re now forced to ask ourselves an increasingly pivotal question: is this really Houston’s backcourt of the future?

Being that Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony and LeBron James are the only players in the league who’ve scored more points than Harden this season, that question basically translates to “Should the Rockets trade Jeremy Lin?”

I’ve been having somewhat of a battle royal in my brain trying to answer it ever since Bill Simmons and Nate Silver briefly brought it up in their B.S. Report conversation a few weeks ago.

A franchise player is called that because almost every personnel move that’s made by the team’s front office is done with him in mind. How does Random Player A fit in with what Franchise Player B likes to do? In the case of Lin and Harden, why hang onto a guy whose playing style doesn’t appear to mesh with the franchise player? Doesn’t that mean his playing style doesn’t mesh with the franchise?

Lin became trade eligible on December 15th; here are both sides of the argument on whether the Houston Rockets should hold on, or trade him (either before this year’s trade deadline or over the summer).

Keep Him

1) Have some patience, he’ll be fine: Why should the Rockets hold onto Jeremy Lin? The easy answer is they haven’t had him for half a season, and to give up on one of the biggest sensations in basketball history twice in three years could be a serious mistake.

Do we really know that Lin and James Harden will never co-exist as a successful backcourt tandem? How could we? Lin is currently re-structuring his jump shot, much like Tiger Woods did with his golf swing. Who knows if it pays off, but there’s no pressure to rush things in the present; this team isn’t in win-now mode.

Who Jeremy Lin is as a basketball player today won’t be the same as who Jeremy Lin will be two years from now. For a 24-year-old, he’s not a bad scorer in the pick-and-roll, and according to Hoopdata.com he’s actually more efficient at the rim this season than he was in New York.

Lin’s already doing some pretty helpful stuff, especially when he’s afforded fourth quarter playing time. (This season he’s been on the court for 210 third quarter minutes and 133 fourth quarter minutes.)

In that final period Lin usually focuses on nothing but getting to the basket, drawing 29.5% of Houston’s fourth quarter fouls and making just under 33% of their free-throws.

Not to mention he’s established himself as one of the better on-ball defensive point guards in the league. He has length, quick hands, and slides laterally as good as anyone. According to Synergy, Lin is a top-20 isolation defender, allowing 0.62 points per possession (on 8-23 shooting).

Lin can score a lot of points against really good NBA defenses (see his performance against the Spurs last week, or how he did against a prepared Lakers team last season). Is he perfect? No. But he’s proven he can be a difference maker at this level.

2) Value: Lin’s trade value is at the lowest its been since Linsanity hit, so dealing him now wouldn’t be ideal. So far he’s shooting 30% from 10-15 feet and 25% from 16-23 feet, per Hoopdata, but those numbers should get a little better. For this reason, keeping him now makes the most sense.

But also, what’s Lin’s market? He’s an international superstar for reasons that have less to do with extraordinary play than the magic carpet he rode through Manhattan last year. Based on who he is on the court, should that really cost $8.3 million over the next two years?

The price tag is too expensive to place Lin on the bench (where he might belong) as a change of pace firecracker. And the list of teams that don’t already have a point guard who’s established or still developing is very small. Now might not be the best time to dangle Jeremy Lin in the face of opposing organizations.

Trade Him

Jeremy Lin’s game is filled with tons of positives, but at times it feels like the glaring negatives carry more weight. His PER (down from 19.9 with the Knicks to 13.6 this year), usage percentage, and points/assists/free-throw attempts per 36 minutes are all dramatically lower than last season; he isn’t doing what’s expected when the ball is in his hands.

Using Synergy, I recently re-watched every Rockets possession that ends with Lin in isolation. He drove left one time out of 19, making three baskets while committing a turnover approximately a third of the time. If unable to force anything to the right, he settles for a pull up jumper.

1) No chemistry/on-court fit with James Harden: Compatibility must be accounted for when making any trade that isn’t completely done for financial reasons. Right now, Lin’s game isn’t accentuated beside his team’s best player (and vice versa).

When he and Harden share the floor, Lin scores 10.9 points per 36 minutes, shooting 27% from behind the three-point line and attempting 2.2 free-throws. When he’s alone running amok, Lin’s scoring 19.7 points per 36 minutes, 56% on three-pointers

Harden’s scoring goes up 5.3 points per 36 minutes when Lin is on the bench. He also rebounds the ball better and attempts five more free-throws.

Let’s compare this situation to last year’s in New York, replacing Harden with Carmelo Anthony. Lin averaged 22.4 points per 36 minutes when Anthony sat, and 17.2 when he played. His field goal percentage went from 49% to 40%.

When Harden and Lin share the court, the Rockets score 101.7 points per 100 possessions.

When Harden is on the court with Carlos Delfino, a legitimate three-point threat, the Rockets score 108.5 points per 100 possessions. When Harden is on the court with Toney Douglas (shooting 43.3% from deep this season), the Rockets score 105.5 points per 100 possessions.

Obviously, Harden’s spent much more time with Lin than Delfino or Douglas, but the sample size is large enough to draw a fairly accurate conclusion.

Look how open Lin is on this pick-and-roll sequence initiated by Harden. Kyle Lowry sags down all the way to the free-throw to help on a drive that Jonas Valanciunas appears already in position to stifle.

Harden kicks it out to Lin on the perimeter, who catches it with his man still in the paint.

Here’s the play:

He makes this shot, but that’s not the point. This play shows how little respect Lin’s shot has throughout the league right now. He’s shooting 31% on three-pointers (32% last year) and 39.7% overall from the floor. An ideal point guard for a slasher like Harden is one who can shoot, or at least create the illusion that he can shoot, to help stretch the floor.

Lin doesn’t do that, creating perhaps the most significant bullet point in any argument attempting to rationalize why he should be traded.

2) Explore the market and maybe you get lucky: As Lowe already pointed out, the chances of Houston trading Lin before this season’s deadline are small to teensy-weensy. But if the team shows no improvement during the regular season (and they don’t make the playoffs) believe that Morey will be on the phone looking for a deal this summer.

Apart from the sleeping giant marketing bonanza Lin can potentially create, what might interest other teams is the three-years on his deal, as opposed to the four-years (and another two years) that Ty Lawson or Stephen Curry (playing extremely well now, but living one second away from another ankle injury) recently signed to.

Of the two, a deal for Lawson would be slightly more probable, but even though both are incredibly convenient long term fits beside Harden, striking a deal centered around Jeremy Lin would require intricate diligence. It’s nearly impossible.

Here’s something they COULD do right now: Package Lin to the Lakers with Carlos Delfino, Daequan Cook, and Patrick Patterson, then make a run at a point guard like Chris Paul (not likely), Jeff Teague or Brandon Jennings in free agency.

They’d have Toney Douglas and Scott Machado running point for the rest of the year but with Gasol you’d have to think at least an 8th seed playoff spot would be a near lock. (The Rockets want to make the playoffs for obvious reasons, one of them being that if they do, their first round pick is forfeited to the Atlanta Hawks, giving them an extra $1.7 million in cap space to play with this summer.)

Then you have Gasol in a contract year next season while still maintaining incredible flexibility to go after a max free agent in the summer of 2014. That’s not a bad plan.

3) Benching him isn’t the solution: Even though the Rockets are 4.2 points per 100 possessions better when Lin is off the court (the largest margin for any player on the roster), having your $8.3 million point guard on the bench at the end of games isn’t a long term option. The Rockets will have to either move him now, or move him later. But tying cement bags to Lin’s value and then throwing it off the boat won’t help anybody.

In his last five games Lin is averaging 28.6 minutes of action, which is laughable for a starting point guard. This needs to change, and if not then Houston must maximize on whatever trade market they can wrestle their way into.

The “Verdict”

Lin goes on dramatic back and forth spurts that simply aren’t acceptable for a starting point guard. If no improvement is seen by the end of the year, we won’t be asking if Lin gets traded, but when. There’s over 60 games for him to get it together though, and judging him entirely off what we’ve seen would be rash.

But what we’ve seen is alarming and costly. Weighing the pros and cons on dealing a struggling, young player like Lin can be divisive and exhausting. It’s a polarizing issue, and from where we currently stand there’s no telling what the right answer might be.

Twitter: @MichaelVPina

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Total comments: 71
  • AllanM says 1 YEAR ago Hello -- long-time lurker, first time poster here.

    Trade Jeremy Lin? No, unless you can bring in a young top point guard prospect. But I don't think Kyrie or Damian are available right now. And I don't think I'd pull the trigger on a Lin for Wall trade. I hear Kyle Lowry might be available... ;-)

    Some perspective on the whole "Lin not playing well" issue -- I lived in Dallas from 1998 to 2003, and attended a ton of Mavs games. To this day, my sister still refers to Steve Nash as Boo Nash because of how Dallas fans mercilessly booed Steve Nash during games. Steve Nash!

    The point guard position is a tough position to learn, and it generally takes great point guards 3-4 years of constantly playing to truly understand it (and yes, Kidd and Paul were exceptions here)...

    So my point: give Lin some time -- this is the right time and team for him to learn this trade. Although we're sniffing at the playoffs right now, we're not near being a championship contender yet, and there's a lot of growth needed for everyone on this team (including Harden).

    Trade Lin only if you can get a better point guard who is younger or at a similar point in their career, and one who has greater potential.
  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    Jacob, on 27 December 2012 - 08:20 AM said:


    No, they shouldn't. Read this: http://www.dethurmon...in-rolling.html


  • Jacob says 1 YEAR ago No, they shouldn't. Read this: http://www.dethurmondanalysis.com/2012/12/harden-and-lin-rolling.html
  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago OK, if we're going to bring Chris Paul into this we gotta bring his wingmen too. CP3's passes would clang off of Asik's hands just like Lin's do. Conversely, Blake Griffin and D'Andre Jordan would boost Lin's conversion rate on assists. To me, this comparison isn't useful.

    Now, as I've already said, I think Lin deserves at least a two year look before a trade. However, what would we trade him for? We would need a point guard in return so it has to be a three team deal because obviously the team trading for Lin does not have a good one. What team gives out quality point guards like they're candy???? Oh, wait...the Rockets do....

    I see a lot of potential in this kid....I think everyone will look back on this thread one day and laugh at the thought of trading him.
  • blakecouey says 1 YEAR ago

    rockets best fan, on 26 December 2012 - 19:38 PM said:


    blakecousey: make no mistake unless the top says rockets best fan it's not me talking :lol: as for your questions, j lin is a nice filler for now. my reservation in trading him would be who is going to replace him? unless we are getting a top point guard ie chirs paul or someone like that it would be stupid. we still need someome to play PG. lin is not an alstar talent wise, but he is a capable fill in. do we need to consider an upgrade at that position.......YES, but we can't just bring in anybody. j lin can help this team and if he learns how to cut the turnovers can really help this team. we can't have stars at every position. would I trade him? only if we are upgrading.

    The questions were for Rocketrick, not for you, but ok lol.
  • kjunfood says 1 YEAR ago Are these comments discounting Lin's recent few games? Yes, small sample, but since Lin seems to only be judged on small sample chunks of games anyways, I would just like to point out that over the last 4 games, he's averaging 18.8 pts (on about 12 shots every game, w/ 15 shots against NYK), 9 assists, and only 2.3 TOs (which has been better than his season avg thus far, and in an unfair comparison, almost the same as CP3's 2.1). In fact, due to the lower usage rate by Lin, hasn't his TOs this season already been much lower than last year's?
  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago blakecousey: make no mistake unless the top says rockets best fan it's not me talking :lol: as for your questions, j lin is a nice filler for now. my reservation in trading him would be who is going to replace him? unless we are getting a top point guard ie chirs paul or someone like that it would be stupid. we still need someome to play PG. lin is not an alstar talent wise, but he is a capable fill in. do we need to consider an upgrade at that position.......YES, but we can't just bring in anybody. j lin can help this team and if he learns how to cut the turnovers can really help this team. we can't have stars at every position. would I trade him? only if we are upgrading.
  • Sir Thursday says 1 YEAR ago Yeah, I think the calls to trade Lin were probably just a kneejerk reaction to some bad games. Every player getting rotation minutes with the Rockets so far has had a slump of sorts - it's inevitable in such a long season and with such a young team. Got to learn to withhold judgement until you've seen both the good and the bad, as well as the frequency the two occur in. I mean, think about all the 'we need a backup PG!' chat that was going on after Douglas' miserable start to the season. Well now he's now our leading three point shooter...

    ST
  • Jlin787 says 1 YEAR ago The Rockets shouldn't trade Jeremy Lin. He's starting to get his game back and if we did trade him, there is a small chance that we will get a solid point guard in return. I would give him a full season before making a decision like that.
  • blakecouey says 1 YEAR ago Welcome to the forum, I guess.
  • DaDakota says 1 YEAR ago I am not sure if Newbie is serious but he is humorous.
  • wintee says 1 YEAR ago BLAKECOUEY

    There's no reason to attempt to put words into my mouth. At no point have I said I hate Lin, also I'd love for him to be our point guard(although I think we could find a better fit). I would like for him to improve, whether it's by becoming a more efficient scorer, passer, or overall facilitator.
    A few questions I have for you, do you think Lin is fine the way he's been? Do you believe he's earned/earning his contract by his current play? Do you think Lin is better than Harden?(this is a real question, based on your prior responses it warrants asking).

    I answer for you,..do u think lin is fine the way he been?? YES, if the rockets let j-lin plays his natural role back...Do you believe he's earned/earning his contract by his current play? YES, when rocket aquirred lin, rocket need lin to do all the intangable, assist ,steal,rebound and ect, rockets org. said they have enough scorer already, and he does a fine job at his requirment so far....

    Do you think Lin is better than Harden? NO.we all know who is better now in scoring the points, but j-lin does all the other thing better than harden. We know who is better NOW, but in couple more years, who know, j-lin might be better than harden. BOTH ARE VERY SMART PLAYERS. BOTH HAVE QUALITY TO BE A SUPERSTAR.
  • wintee says 1 YEAR ago And one more thing, some of you here talking about turn over, do you watch the rockets game or just watch stats , or you guys just listen to other people advise? Most game harden and asik have more t.o than lin, and people still complain about lin t.o. IF YALL JUST J-LIN HATER, JUST SAY SO, basketball wise, i dont you know yall that SMART.
  • wintee says 1 YEAR ago I cannot believe how people dont see the talent and skills that j-lin have. YES, harden is a scoring machine, YES, asik is the defense guy, YES, J-LIN IS THE GUY THAT SET UP EVERYBODY FOR EASY ASSIST AND CAN LEAD THE TEAM IF HARDEN IS OUT. J-lin has done a very GREAT JOB with all the intangable for the Rockets. Its very hard to find a guy like J-lin , the Rockets thinks FARTER than some of you thinks. As far as J-lin games goes, he is doing a GREAT JOB. How many players breaking record out of college and breaking record as a starting in the NBA, a few ,and J-lin is one of em. Few more year, he will be a SUPERSTAR, I DONT CARE IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IT. how may years do you think Kobe, Durant , Melo or whoever become a superstar. YOU JUST SOUND LIKE ONE OF THEM COACHES THAT NEVER BELIEVE THAT J-LIN CANT MAKE IT TO THE NBA.
  • DaDakota says 1 YEAR ago Lin was signed as a marketing move while the Rockets rebuilt.

    Then they got Harden - which changed everything.

    While Lin is not as good as Lowry or Dragic, he is pretty decent.

    No need to trade him, let him play out his time and let's see if his super intellect helps develop his jumpshot.

    DD
  • iceman90 says 1 YEAR ago Lin has all star potential. You cannot score 38 against the Spurs otherwise. Is he an all star now? Definitely not. Might he be an all star in the future? Maybe... or maybe not. But people who say that a 24 year old who has had awesome games against great teams does not have all star potential are deluding themselves.

    Now let me clarify, I feel Lin has been playing badly with the exception of a few games. But, IMO this was as much to do as the coaching as well as his lack of a mid range jumper. Is he a good fit with Harden? Till the last 2 games definitely not. Its on him and the coaching staff to try to mesh both of them.

    Give this team and Lin, in particular, time to make mistakes and learn from them.
  • feelingsupersonic says 1 YEAR ago I am going to repeat what I wrote earlier in this thread and what the last few posters are trying to point out, give Lin time. Once again, some of you act like basketball fanatics on a message board with nothing else to write about but trading some Rocket or trading for some player we will never get. Give this team and Lin some time to make mistakes, correct them and develop. Just because we have had a revolving door doesn't mean it should continue. Now is the time to start aiming for stability, something I believe some of us Rocket fans have forgotten about. Seriously, this is Red94, aren't we smarter and more rationale than some of the trash you find on other basketball forums. I have not seen anyone pose one good reason as to why we should trade Jeremy Lin.
  • Ostrow says 1 YEAR ago I don't want to beat a dead horse and say the same thing as everyone else has but... He is still really young. The team is just learning to play together. They are all really young. Additionally, the two biggest problems right now with Lin seem to be his turnovers and his shooting. Not turning the ball over comes with age. The more he plays on this level the less he'll turn the ball over. Shooting takes a lot of work to improve, but it can be done. Jason Kidd is the prime example. Now I've watching/played against this kid for years. He has gotten better every year. I believe that he will get better and we have to give him time. I'm not someone who is particularly loves Lin, but he deserves a chance.
  • AlphaBeta says 1 YEAR ago geez, every time I read Red94 there seems to be some extra criticism or knocks on the team or Lin. Relax. It's a quarter of the way through. Since the acquisition of Harden, people have gone from not expecting much to playoffs or bust. Relax. None of you people seem to have any patience, particularly with Lin. The guy has barely played 2000 minutes and he should be traded right away? (facepalm) Here's a thought, give hime time to grow and develop, like any young player. How about 3 years? Is that too much to ask? Good grief. Same goes for the rest of the Rockets. Youngest team in the league will take time to mesh and gel. They'll be better next year and even better the year after. You can't do that with a revolving door of players. Everyone needs to relax and give this team a few years under their belt to gain experience and learn to play together and they might surprise you. One last thing, RELAX. Patience is a virtue none of you seem to have.
  • Drew in Abilene says 1 YEAR ago I don't want the Rockets to trade Lin this season. He and Harden have meshed well at times, and they're both relatively young with high ceilings. They aren't consistently good together yet, but that kind of chemistry can take time, especially for two players used to being fairly ball-dominant. They have proven that it is possible for them to both light it up and to do so efficiently. Both are good distributors, and I think both do a good job of making secondary/role players better. I feel like it would be too hasty to give up on this tandem at this point, and would like to see what they can do after spending a season and a training camp together. I think they can be something special.
  • blakecouey says 1 YEAR ago

    rocketrick, on 20 December 2012 - 09:00 AM said:


    I absolutely get that this thread is about Jeremy Lin but I don't think that alone qualifies as a good enough reason to give Harden a pass because in this instance a few people are blasting Lin for his supposedly high turnover ratio and terrible shooting percentage.

    I love Harden but I also like Lin very much and I am one of those who believe they can eventually figure it out and become one of those rare dynamic duo guards.

    Still, if people are going to criticize Lin's game (supposedly too high turnover rate and too low shooting percentage), all I'm saying is those people should consider Harden's turnover rate and shooting percentage and when doing so realizing they are actually quite similar to Lin on a per minute basis.

    I get it that there will always be Jeremy Lin detractors just like there were always Hakeem Olajuwon detractors. That comes with the territory. But don't disparage Lin by making false claims and exagerrating stats such as turnover ratio and shooting percentage. Just come out and say you absolutely hate Lin no matter what and you want __________________ to be the Rockets point guard.

    There's no reason to attempt to put words into my mouth. At no point have I said I hate Lin, also I'd love for him to be our point guard(although I think we could find a better fit). I would like for him to improve, whether it's by becoming a more efficient scorer, passer, or overall facilitator.
    A few questions I have for you, do you think Lin is fine the way he's been? Do you believe he's earned/earning his contract by his current play? Do you think Lin is better than Harden?(this is a real question, based on your prior responses it warrants asking).
  • Alituro says 1 YEAR ago Who could possibly criticize a player who scores 33 points on 12 shots AND led the team in assists?! We're talking about a guy, Lin (on a good night for him) gets 18 points on 12 shots. They are not really even on the same planet talent-wise. But, I will hand it to Lin, he seems like he's building a head of steam and starting to figure out how to mesh with our new franchise cornerstone. He's been quite impressive this week, let's just hope he keeps it up. If he keeps it up, our team will be a force to reckon with real soon.
  • rocketrick says 1 YEAR ago

    blakecouey, on 19 December 2012 - 04:11 AM said:


    The thread is about Lin, which is why Harden is getting a pass and not being talked about for his inability to keep the ball in our possession.



    I absolutely get that this thread is about Jeremy Lin but I don't think that alone qualifies as a good enough reason to give Harden a pass because in this instance a few people are blasting Lin for his supposedly high turnover ratio and terrible shooting percentage.

    I love Harden but I also like Lin very much and I am one of those who believe they can eventually figure it out and become one of those rare dynamic duo guards.

    Still, if people are going to criticize Lin's game (supposedly too high turnover rate and too low shooting percentage), all I'm saying is those people should consider Harden's turnover rate and shooting percentage and when doing so realizing they are actually quite similar to Lin on a per minute basis.

    I get it that there will always be Jeremy Lin detractors just like there were always Hakeem Olajuwon detractors. That comes with the territory. But don't disparage Lin by making false claims and exagerrating stats such as turnover ratio and shooting percentage. Just come out and say you absolutely hate Lin no matter what and you want __________________ to be the Rockets point guard.
  • Cooper says 1 YEAR ago Nash may have had 20%+ turnover but he also had double digit assists.However Lin and harden do well enough right now in the turn over area and should continue to get better.
  • Sir Thursday says 1 YEAR ago Guys, if you're trying to adjust for the amount of time a player has the ball in his hands when talking about turnovers, then you should be looking at turnover rate, which calculates the percentage of possessions a player uses the ball which result in a turnover. Hoopdata is a good source for this statistic. Here are the turnover percentages for the Rockets so far this year:

    • Omer Asik: 20%
    • Cole Aldrich: 16.6%
    • Jeremy Lin: 13.3%
    • Toney Douglas: 12.9%
    • James Harden: 12.4%
    • Carlos Delfino: 11.8%
    • Chandler Parsons: 10.5%
    • Marcus Morris: 9%
    • Patrick Patterson: 8.9%
    • Terrence Jones: 6.7%
    • Greg Smith: 6.1%

    So on that basis, Lin turns the ball over slightly more than Harden. However, in any case I think the turnover question is irrelevant. Many very good PGs have high turnover rates (eg. Steve Nash has never had a season with <20% Turnover Rate), and I definitely remember reading a study which showed little to no correlation between the number of turnovers in a PG's first two seasons and long term success at the position.

    ST
  • Alituro says 1 YEAR ago xsamc1: Yes I realize that, but I would venture to say that the difference between the usage of both players is directly related to Lin's dependability. If he were to be more consistent then those numbers would even out. We're trying to win, why should we spend 48 minutes coddling someone's inconsistencies when there's a player right next to him that's always ready to get it done? Have Lin try to catch fire with the second unit initially instead of holding Harden back for Lin's sake.

    Oh and I agree about Asik, but looking at it, and you got to give it to him because of his huge elevation in usage (Most Improved Player anyone?) his adj. FG% is .486, which is right there with Duncan and Al Jefferson, and is pretty much par for the position which typically varies between .450 and .600. I've noticed the big fella going hard to the rim lately instead of the soft little layups. I think his biggest detriment down there is his inability to secure the ball on the entry passes, i.e. butterfingers.
  • SamC says 1 YEAR ago

    Alituro, on 19 December 2012 - 16:16 PM said:


    Lin averages more assists because he's the damn PG. What's worrisome is our SG is getting almost as much assists as our PG and that should not happen, and It's not because Harden's assist rate is particularly high for his position, but Lin's is way too low for a starting PG.


    You do realize that Harden has the ball for most of the game, right? It's not even a 50/50 split. More like 65/35. Harden does a great job finding open guys but he's a shooter first, passer second. Also, Harden plays for most of the game.

    Edit: Forgot to mention, everyone would have higher assist rates if Asik was able to finish at the rim.
  • Alituro says 1 YEAR ago Rocketrick: Nice try on convincing us Harden should be scrutinized just as hard, but you conveniently left out one important statistic in your argument and that's PPG. So if Harden is averaging one more turnover per game than Lin, but puts up twelve more points, that 1 turnover costs us 3 points at worst but about 1 point on average. Lin averages more assists because he's the damn PG. What's worrisome is our SG is getting almost as much assists as our PG and that should not happen, and It's not because Harden's assist rate is particularly high for his position, but Lin's is way too low for a starting PG. You're argument is about as ludicrous as someone defending Chalmers by saying "Well Wade's not perfect either". You need to polish up on your straw man.
  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago rocketrick: j lin is not a defensive wizzard..........not even close. watch his defense against quick guards. it's not a pretty site. quick players give lin fits. his defense is average at best on a good day.
    blakecouey: sorry all nba fans don't agree with you on who should and shouldn't be in the allstar game. sure I might pick a few different players if I was the only one voting, but I respect the right of other fans too. my comment was not to imply you may be bias it was to make the point that the game belongs to the fans whoever they may be. they pay the money. they should be able to see who they want for their money. its the 1 time a year they get input. don't begrudge them that.
  • blakecouey says 1 YEAR ago

    rocketrick, on 19 December 2012 - 03:36 AM said:


    If anyone would take just a minute and look at the 2012-13 statistics, I think it would become clear that Harden is getting a pass while Lin is being overly criticized.

    Harden 43.1% FG 33.3% 3-Pt 5.2 Assists/39.0 minutes 3.8 Turnovers/39.0 minutes

    Lin 40.7% FG 30.3% 3-Pt 6.0 Assists/32.7 minutes 2.8 Turnovers/32.7 minutes

    Not only that, but Harden is not nearly as effective in running a fastbreak as Lin is. Oftentimes, Harden finishes at the goal from a pass from Lin or Parsons, et al.

    I'm not certain how one would find the stats for each player when the other is on the bench or not dressed to play.It doesn't seem like there have been very many minutes where Lin is on the floor while Harden is on the bench whereas it is common knowledge Harden has significant minutes on the court with Lin on the bench.

    It's very disturbing to me that there are a few people on these boards ready to toss Lin overboard and the season is only 1/4 of the way through. Plus the Rockets trade for Harden was AFTER all their pre-season games were played. Just exactly how many practices have the Rockets had since the start of the Season? Very few.

    It's OK to be critical of Lin but don't just give Harden a pass when his shooting touch is certainly nothing to brag about at this point. Lin would have easily had another 5-6 assists in the Knicks game had the open shooters (otten it was Harden) made their shots.

    The thread is about Lin, which is why Harden is getting a pass and not being talked about for his inability to keep the ball in our possession.

    rocketrick, on 19 December 2012 - 03:42 AM said:


    Blake, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on how the All-Star players are selected. I absolutely would abhor the fans selecting the last 7 players. That would cause several worthy players from quite possibly making the All-Start team. I would imagine many top players have a bonus in their contracts for making the All-Star team. I do agree that Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant should be the starting guards for the West All-Star team and I believe enough in the fans of the NBA to vote those two players as starters. For sure Lin would make the All-Star team every year if the fans chose the last 7 players. It's pretty certain that the coaches will select only one of Harden and Lin and it seems pretty clear to me which of those 2 will make the All-Star team (the one with the beard).

    You really think those last two spots are going to totally overthrow the balance of who is and isn't deserving?
    Right now, Nowitzski, Stoudemire, and Rose have almost 200k votes so far, and have played a total of ZERO minutes this year. Keep in mind this isn't the first time this has happened, as I believe Yao(and I'm sure others) have been voted in without playing as well.
    I have no problem with the fans seeing who they want to see, but being an All-Star should mean you are the top of your game, and have nothing to do with popularity.
    @RBF- I don't care who votes for who, whether it's Asian, African, American, or European. The only reason I said what I'd change about the process is because I was asked.
  • rocketrick says 1 YEAR ago

    Sir Thursday, on 18 December 2012 - 11:40 AM said:


    I think a more apt comparison than LeBron/Wade is the Ellis/Curry tandem they had in Golden State for a while. Both great offensive players but not great defenders (though one of them is a ball hawk), and the narrative was that they didn't really work together very well. Now, on the surface that doesn't sound like a particularly promising analogue to have - after all, Ellis was shipped out of Golden State because it just wasn't working for them there. But the difference is both Harden and Lin are much more willing passers than Ellis, who tended to dominate the ball and take inefficient shots. Monta had a great shooter next to him in Curry that he didn't use enough. Harden has a poor shooter next to him right now in Lin, but he has shown he isn't afraid to use him. So provided Lin can make himself a more dangerous threat on the outside, I think they can avoid the same fate as the Warriors' duo.

    ST


    That sounds reasonable on the surface, and probably a more apt comparison at this point. However, neither Ellis or Curry is a pure PG in my opinion. Both tend to be more valuable to their teams for their shooting, rather than their passing, skills. Harden is far superior in my opinion as a SG that can create shots for his teammates but he is certainly not as elite a shooter at this point in his career as Ellis or Curry. None or exacty known for the defensive skills either. Lin is the most effective of the 4 on the defensive end and ball hawking skills.
  • rocketrick says 1 YEAR ago

    rocketrick, on 19 December 2012 - 03:42 AM said:


    Blake, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on how the All-Star players are selected. I absolutely would abhor the fans selecting the last 7 players. That would cause several worthy players from quite possibly making the All-Start team. I would imagine many top players have a bonus in their contracts for making the All-Star team. I do agree that Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant should be the starting guards for the West All-Star team and I believe enough in the fans of the NBA to vote those two players as starters. For sure Lin would make the All-Star team every year if the fans chose the last 7 players. It's pretty certain that the coaches will select only one of Harden and Lin and it seems pretty clear to me which of those 2 will make the All-Star team (the one with the beard).


    I meant to say That would cause several worthy players from quite possibly NOT making the All-Star tema.
  • rocketrick says 1 YEAR ago

    blakecouey, on 18 December 2012 - 22:03 PM said:


    I dislike the weight placed on fan voting. I don't believe a player that isn't in the top 3 at his position in his conference should get in, regardless of race/popularity. I don't disagree with the entire world being allowed to vote, if you're a fan I believe you should be able to vote. I don't think Stern(or the next commissioner Adam Silver) should be deciding the players either. There is absolutely no argument anyone can make that would show that Lin is worthy of being a starter on an All-Star team at this time. Clearly CP3 is playing better and deserves the WC start. A flip flop on the votes would make it better in my opinion as well. Let the coaches vote on the starters, let fans vote for the remaining 7. The only reason ASG voting isn't a bigger debacle is because of the First/Second/Third team NBA awards and the fact that they are somewhat more credible.



    Blake, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on how the All-Star players are selected. I absolutely would abhor the fans selecting the last 7 players. That would cause several worthy players from quite possibly making the All-Start team. I would imagine many top players have a bonus in their contracts for making the All-Star team. I do agree that Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant should be the starting guards for the West All-Star team and I believe enough in the fans of the NBA to vote those two players as starters. For sure Lin would make the All-Star team every year if the fans chose the last 7 players. It's pretty certain that the coaches will select only one of Harden and Lin and it seems pretty clear to me which of those 2 will make the All-Star team (the one with the beard).
  • rocketrick says 1 YEAR ago

    blakecouey, on 18 December 2012 - 22:03 PM said:



    As far as your comment on Lin's turnover ratio, it's still high and your expected "excuse" holds true about Harden controlling the ball for a majority while they're both on the floor. I don't have a chance to look at exact numbers but what is Lin's TO ratio when Harden is on the bench?


    If anyone would take just a minute and look at the 2012-13 statistics, I think it would become clear that Harden is getting a pass while Lin is being overly criticized.

    Harden 43.1% FG 33.3% 3-Pt 5.2 Assists/39.0 minutes 3.8 Turnovers/39.0 minutes

    Lin 40.7% FG 30.3% 3-Pt 6.0 Assists/32.7 minutes 2.8 Turnovers/32.7 minutes

    Not only that, but Harden is not nearly as effective in running a fastbreak as Lin is. Oftentimes, Harden finishes at the goal from a pass from Lin or Parsons, et al.

    I'm not certain how one would find the stats for each player when the other is on the bench or not dressed to play.It doesn't seem like there have been very many minutes where Lin is on the floor while Harden is on the bench whereas it is common knowledge Harden has significant minutes on the court with Lin on the bench.

    It's very disturbing to me that there are a few people on these boards ready to toss Lin overboard and the season is only 1/4 of the way through. Plus the Rockets trade for Harden was AFTER all their pre-season games were played. Just exactly how many practices have the Rockets had since the start of the Season? Very few.

    It's OK to be critical of Lin but don't just give Harden a pass when his shooting touch is certainly nothing to brag about at this point. Lin would have easily had another 5-6 assists in the Knicks game had the open shooters (otten it was Harden) made their shots.
  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    blakecouey, on 18 December 2012 - 22:03 PM said:


    I dislike the weight placed on fan voting. I don't believe a player that isn't in the top 3 at his position in his conference should get in, regardless of race/popularity. I don't disagree with the entire world being allowed to vote, if you're a fan I believe you should be able to vote. I don't think Stern(or the next commissioner Adam Silver) should be deciding the players either. There is absolutely no argument anyone can make that would show that Lin is worthy of being a starter on an All-Star team at this time. Clearly CP3 is playing better and deserves the WC start. A flip flop on the votes would make it better in my opinion as well. Let the coaches vote on the starters, let fans vote for the remaining 7. The only reason ASG voting isn't a bigger debacle is because of the First/Second/Third team NBA awards and the fact that they are somewhat more credible.

    As far as your comment on Lin's turnover ratio, it's still high and your expected "excuse" holds true about Harden controlling the ball for a majority while they're both on the floor. I don't have a chance to look at exact numbers but what is Lin's TO ratio when Harden is on the bench?
    I have to disagree about the allstar game. the allstar game is the fans game period. whoever they want to see should be there. don't hate because asian fans vote. I am fine with the current system. now as for the rest of allstar week that's what needs to be revamped. now back to j lin. lin is not an allstar talent wise at this time and may never be and allstar. he may make the allstar team, but don't mistake that for allstar talent. yes he has some flashes of good play, but not often enough for me. I not only want to see improvement against the bobcats, but how about looking good against the thunder or the heat or the spurs for a change. lin is still very young and learning the game but I expected to see more by now and haven't. I have seen some good play, but not the leader I was hoping for.
  • Jeby says 1 YEAR ago On the side topic of All-Star selections: I feel a little queasy about the fan voting because of guys like Lin, T-Mac and Iverson and the amount to which guys get in on reputation. But I'm going to reinstate my (highly unpopular) line of reasoning as when I stood behind Stern's decision to punish Popovich--that is that fans are the ultimate purpose of the NBA.
    Basketball "stars," just like movie "stars," are not always the most talented people at what they do. But they are the most beloved. They are who people pay to see. So while the MVPs, ROYs, DPOYs, MIPs and All-NBA teams should go on being selected by the 'elites' such as coaches and sports writers, the All-Star game should continue to belong to the fans. For better or for worse.
    As Jalen Rose is fond of singing, "Got to give the people...give the people what they want!"

    And in response to the folks who say Lin doesn't have All-Star potential...
    What is your gold-plated standard for All-Star potential? You're telling me that a 24-year-old (sorry I was wrong on the age earlier) who hasn't even started a full season who can bust out with 30 points and/or 10 assists on any defense on any given night with one of the league's biggest targets on his back does not have All-Star potential in the NBA? Let me throw out some recent "All-Star" guards for you: Jameer Nelson, Mo Williams, Devin Harris, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas. You don't think Jeremy Lin is capable of having a better career than any of those guys? Heck, Joe Johnson is a perennial All-Star and I wouldn't be shocked to see Lin have a better career. Pleasantly surprised, but not shocked.
  • Cooper says 1 YEAR ago Obviously I'd wait till next year pretty much no harm in waiting to see if they can figure it out. But if they don't improve playing together Lin is the one that goes.
  • blakecouey says 1 YEAR ago

    rocketrick, on 18 December 2012 - 06:56 AM said:


    So how should the All-Star selection be made then? If not all fans, just American fans? Perhaps the NBA commissioner should make the selections? I'm sure the Rockets fans would be fine with seeing as how the NBA commissioner seems to rule against certain Rockets trades from time to time. Maybe just let NBA GM's select the top 12 for each team? Or perhaps the Head Coaches of each NBA team (although there probably will be a handful of players they don't even see in person due to scheduling until after the NBA All-Star Game).

    In my opinion, the NBA is doing the right thing by allowing fans, all fans of the NBA, to vote for their favorite players. The fans choose each team's starting 5 by position and the remaining 7 are voted for by NBA Head Coaches. To me this is the wisest and best method of selecting players for the All-Star team. The NBA needs the fans to thrive and to continue growing their fan base.

    I dislike the weight placed on fan voting. I don't believe a player that isn't in the top 3 at his position in his conference should get in, regardless of race/popularity. I don't disagree with the entire world being allowed to vote, if you're a fan I believe you should be able to vote. I don't think Stern(or the next commissioner Adam Silver) should be deciding the players either. There is absolutely no argument anyone can make that would show that Lin is worthy of being a starter on an All-Star team at this time. Clearly CP3 is playing better and deserves the WC start. A flip flop on the votes would make it better in my opinion as well. Let the coaches vote on the starters, let fans vote for the remaining 7. The only reason ASG voting isn't a bigger debacle is because of the First/Second/Third team NBA awards and the fact that they are somewhat more credible.

    As far as your comment on Lin's turnover ratio, it's still high and your expected "excuse" holds true about Harden controlling the ball for a majority while they're both on the floor. I don't have a chance to look at exact numbers but what is Lin's TO ratio when Harden is on the bench?
  • ale11 says 1 YEAR ago Lin should be kept at least until next July....really, 24 games are way too little to judge. I think it would be a great idea to try this: start both Lin and Harden and finish the games with both of them on the court (subject to their performances) but try to give them several minutes in between for both of them without the other so both of them can control the offensive flow and keep working on meshing them in practice....maybe they could both play something like 8-10 minutes without the other and give them full control, so you keep them both happy and motivated (also, that would keep Harden from having to carry us 43 minutes a night, remember what he looked like against Portland at Toyota Center in clutch time?)

    I know that probably they won't ever be a great fit, but give them a chance to try it before shipping Lin somewhere (not that there are many pretenders right now anyway).

    By the way, nice article Michael :D always backing up opinions with numbers and videos, actual evidence of the arguments. Thumbs up!
  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago I'm all for keeping Lin on board for at least this year and next. As mentioned, short-sighted is how we are looking at things right now.

    It wasn't too long ago Harden was being discussed as a potential draft "bust" because he flashed signs of brilliance, but couldn't put it together consistently. I feel the same way about Lin. To paraphrase Rahat--you don't have nights like that without having talent.

    I like the idea of trying him out with the second unit. Have Harden come in and get things rolling, then lin takes over, and then Harden comes back in and integrates himself into what is already happening. The role he effectively held in OKC, but with the bonus of starting.

    I liken Lin to a less athletic Russel Westbrook with a higher B-Ball IQ. He is at his best when shooting more and running the offense and everything else can fall into place after that. Kevin Durant thrives in an offensive system like this--why can't Harden? (Besides the fact that he is no Kevin Durant) Hopefully, Lin can pair this with an increase to his assist/turnover ratio (it's improving, but still needs to be better) and I like what we'll have going in the backcourt.
  • Johnny Rocket says 1 YEAR ago I liked Feigen's tweet:

    "Funny thing about rush to judge Jeremy Lin. His 25 NY starts viewed as too small a sample. His 24 Houston starts treated as enough to judge."

    I'd be happy to have Lin come of the bench--maybe that's the combination that works best for us--but way too early to say that the experiment with Harden is a failure.
  • Alituro says 1 YEAR ago I would like to know why everyone is hesitant to get behind bringing Lin in off the bench. I understand the $8.3million is too much for a bench PG argument. But, is the money too much for a Manu Ginobili, he comes off the bench? Last season if OKC were paying Harden the same, would it have been too much for a bench guy? Jason Terry? I'm not saying reduce his minutes, just don't start him. I think his game would benefit by being the #1 option on the second unit. I think once he establishes his "zone" it's hard to bring him out of it, but he needs the full green light to get there.
  • Sir Thursday says 1 YEAR ago

    rocketrick, on 18 December 2012 - 07:11 AM said:


    Finally, I do agree somewhat with Blake's assertion that it's not really something that is discussion worthy when trying to compare Harden and Lin with the tandem of LeBron and D-Wade. However, just exactly how many other comparisons in the NBA history can any reasonable fan select from with players as young as Harden and Lin? I can't think of any that come to mind and I have been a huge fan of the NBA for a lot of years. LeBron and D-Wade (minus adjusting for 5+ years of NBA experience) vs. Harden and Lin may not be that outlandish of a comparison. The travails of LeBron and D-Wade in their first entire season together is well chronicled and that has turned out exceptionally well so far for them and the Miami Heat organization and all their fans.


    I think a more apt comparison than LeBron/Wade is the Ellis/Curry tandem they had in Golden State for a while. Both great offensive players but not great defenders (though one of them is a ball hawk), and the narrative was that they didn't really work together very well. Now, on the surface that doesn't sound like a particularly promising analogue to have - after all, Ellis was shipped out of Golden State because it just wasn't working for them there. But the difference is both Harden and Lin are much more willing passers than Ellis, who tended to dominate the ball and take inefficient shots. Monta had a great shooter next to him in Curry that he didn't use enough. Harden has a poor shooter next to him right now in Lin, but he has shown he isn't afraid to use him. So provided Lin can make himself a more dangerous threat on the outside, I think they can avoid the same fate as the Warriors' duo.

    ST
  • redfaithful says 1 YEAR ago

    Johnny Rocket, on 18 December 2012 - 03:45 AM said:


    My two cents: be patient, keep him, and try different combinations. We've barely played a quarter of the schedule, our head coach was gone for a month, and we have the youngest team in the league. It is way, way too early to be drawing any conclusions.


    Fully agree.
  • feelingsupersonic says 1 YEAR ago I completely agree with Johnny Rocket. Ya'll are crazy to be talking about trading Lin already. Ya'll sound like a bunch of basketball fans on a message board with nothing else to dish on. Look I am not a huge Lin fan but at least give him a year. This is not a fantasy basketball team and at some point like Sir Thursday wrote some stability will be in order. Also, there is no way the Lakers would take Lin, no way, that is a pipe dream. Let's give Lin a year and a half before we start talking trade.
  • rocketrick says 1 YEAR ago

    blakecouey, on 18 December 2012 - 04:47 AM said:


    I agree he needs to work on his shot, but I'd also like to see him do something he's never done in his short career. That's taking care of the ball, reducing his turnover ratio. At best I think Lin is a serviceable starting PG in the league, occasionally giving you big nights.
    Also, let's please not compare Lin and Harden to Wade and James. Both of the latter have been the best player in the league at some point of their career(and LBJ is currently).


    I don't mean to pick on only Blake Couey's comments re: Jeremy Lin. It's just I choose to point out a different Rocket's fan's opinion of Jeremy Lin. I love quoting stats and a most interesting fact is that Lin has actually significantly reduced his turnover ratio from last season. 2011-2012 season, Lin averaged 3.6 turnovers per 26.9 minutes played. In 2012-13 season (only the '12 portion played so far, of course), Lin is averaging 2.7 turnovers per 32.4 minutes played. I can't wait to hear the excuses and "reasons why" that will surely come from Lin detractors after posting this mesage but expect there will be a number including "Harden has the ball in his hands more than Lin when both are on the floor together". Still, the fact remains Harden's turnover ratio is much worse than Lin but nobody seems interested in talking about that. I for one am not interested. I am a huge fan of James Harden but also a huge fan of Jeremy Lin.

    Finally, I do agree somewhat with Blake's assertion that it's not really something that is discussion worthy when trying to compare Harden and Lin with the tandem of LeBron and D-Wade. However, just exactly how many other comparisons in the NBA history can any reasonable fan select from with players as young as Harden and Lin? I can't think of any that come to mind and I have been a huge fan of the NBA for a lot of years. LeBron and D-Wade (minus adjusting for 5+ years of NBA experience) vs. Harden and Lin may not be that outlandish of a comparison. The travails of LeBron and D-Wade in their first entire season together is well chronicled and that has turned out exceptionally well so far for them and the Miami Heat organization and all their fans.
  • rocketrick says 1 YEAR ago

    blakecouey, on 18 December 2012 - 04:47 AM said:


    Our opinions depend on whether or not each of us believes he has All Star potential. I don't. If he makes the all star game it's not from his play, it's because of the election process(which is flawed).



    So how should the All-Star selection be made then? If not all fans, just American fans? Perhaps the NBA commissioner should make the selections? I'm sure the Rockets fans would be fine with seeing as how the NBA commissioner seems to rule against certain Rockets trades from time to time. Maybe just let NBA GM's select the top 12 for each team? Or perhaps the Head Coaches of each NBA team (although there probably will be a handful of players they don't even see in person due to scheduling until after the NBA All-Star Game).

    In my opinion, the NBA is doing the right thing by allowing fans, all fans of the NBA, to vote for their favorite players. The fans choose each team's starting 5 by position and the remaining 7 are voted for by NBA Head Coaches. To me this is the wisest and best method of selecting players for the All-Star team. The NBA needs the fans to thrive and to continue growing their fan base.

    Sadly, no matter how well Jeremy Lin plays, there will ALWAYS be his detractors that say it (an All-Star slot) was handed to him because of his ethnicity. No matter how many NBA Championships the Rockets might win in the next few years, there will ALWAYS be his detractors demanding his trade for ______________ (fill in the blank no matter how asinine).

    Thankifully those at the top of all NBA franchises ignore message boards such as these as each continues to strive to field the most competitive team possible (usually within salary cap limits unless your franchise happens to be in LA or NY for the most part) giving their franchise the best opportunity possible to win the big prize at the end of the season.

    I for one am quite thankful they do. How many fans demanded the Dream be traded prior to the Rockets winning back to back NBA Championships. There were quite a few and I have not forgotten how shortsighted and wrong those particular "fans" or "best fans", etc. were.
  • tombrokeoff says 1 YEAR ago i agree with johnny rocket. wait it out a little longer. i mean, trade deadline or offseason at the earliest.
  • rocketrick says 1 YEAR ago

    blakecouey, on 18 December 2012 - 04:47 AM said:


    Our opinions depend on whether or not each of us believes he has All Star potential. I don't. If he makes the all star game it's not from his play, it's because of the election process(which is flawed).
    I agree he needs to work on his shot, but I'd also like to see him do something he's never done in his short career. That's taking care of the ball, reducing his turnover ratio. At best I think Lin is a serviceable starting PG in the league, occasionally giving you big nights.
    Also, let's please not compare Lin and Harden to Wade and James. Both of the latter have been the best player in the league at some point of their career(and LBJ is currently).


    And where are the Jeremy Lin detractors after tonight's game vs. the Knicks?
  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago I said this coming out of training camp and looking at the season so far has only confirmed what I saw back then. lin is not a starting point guard. a decent backup yes , but a starter no. lin's game is only effective when he can control both the ball and offensive flow. he has no jump shot and can not stay in front of quicker guards defensively. I keep hearing this (his jump shot will come). when? he's been searching for over 20 games now. he turns the ball over way to much for a point guard which means his ball handling still needs much improvement. should we trade him? yes......will we trade him?........no, at least not this year. does he have all star talent.....NO. I agree with blakecouey if he's on the team it won't be because of his talent. lets face it lin is not the long term answer at that position. he is fine for now, but we must find us a better point guard period. what we need to do is see if we can talk phoenix out of dragic in exchange for lin, white and some spare parts. as for cousins......I would love to see the rockets aquire him. while I know he has been a head case the fact still remains the kid has the talent to be the best center in the league, besides I believe we can handle him a lot better than the kings are doing. the combo of him and harden could be special. problem is getting him away from the kings.
  • blakecouey says 1 YEAR ago

    Jeby, on 18 December 2012 - 03:49 AM said:


    You don't trade a 23-year-old all-star-potenial player for his inability to mesh with another 23-year-old all star potential player after a quarter of a season. The paint will not be dry on either of these guys' games for another couple years (especially Lin). Remember the last team to pair up two ball-dominant creators? It was the Miami Heat, AKA Reigning NBA Champions. Seriously, the only thing that needs to happen to make them gel better is for Lin to improve his jump shot. Shooting is generally recognized by scouts as the easiest thing for pros to improve if they work hard. And Lin works hard.
    If an opportunity comes up to trade for someone who is undeniably better than Lin (say, Kyrie Irving), then you do it.
    But trading a guy who hasn't even played an 82-game season because he doesn't "fit" is lunacy.

    Our opinions depend on whether or not each of us believes he has All Star potential. I don't. If he makes the all star game it's not from his play, it's because of the election process(which is flawed).
    I agree he needs to work on his shot, but I'd also like to see him do something he's never done in his short career. That's taking care of the ball, reducing his turnover ratio. At best I think Lin is a serviceable starting PG in the league, occasionally giving you big nights.
    Also, let's please not compare Lin and Harden to Wade and James. Both of the latter have been the best player in the league at some point of their career(and LBJ is currently).
  • Jeby says 1 YEAR ago You don't trade a 23-year-old all-star-potenial player for his inability to mesh with another 23-year-old all star potential player after a quarter of a season. The paint will not be dry on either of these guys' games for another couple years (especially Lin). Remember the last team to pair up two ball-dominant creators? It was the Miami Heat, AKA Reigning NBA Champions. Seriously, the only thing that needs to happen to make them gel better is for Lin to improve his jump shot. Shooting is generally recognized by scouts as the easiest thing for pros to improve if they work hard. And Lin works hard.
    If an opportunity comes up to trade for someone who is undeniably better than Lin (say, Kyrie Irving), then you do it.
    But trading a guy who hasn't even played an 82-game season because he doesn't "fit" is lunacy.
  • Johnny Rocket says 1 YEAR ago My two cents: be patient, keep him, and try different combinations. We've barely played a quarter of the schedule, our head coach was gone for a month, and we have the youngest team in the league. It is way, way too early to be drawing any conclusions.
  • blakecouey says 1 YEAR ago I believe we should trade him, if not now then during the offseason. It may be a small sample size, but I agree with what Rahat said in that it may get better but it will never be optimal. Both players, Lin and Harden will benefit from being separated. I don't think we should bench Lin though, that would plummet his value, and our second option of TD isn't ideal either.

    I'd like to see us pursue a trade for Lawson, or Devin Harris. Lawson would be ideal, but I don't think Denver is a market that would benefit much from Lin(and they'd certainly lose talent). Devin Harris is a vastly underrated player in my opinion, in a contract year, on a team that looks to be getting a fresh start next season(with Josh Smith probably leaving, and only 7 players under contract for next year). With Atlanta playing well so far this year I don't know if they'd be willing to do a blockbuster trade, including both Harris and Smith, but that would be exciting(regardless of however improbable).
  • Paradise says 1 YEAR ago

    Sir Thursday, on 17 December 2012 - 19:21 PM said:


    I don't think it's possible to field a competitive basketball team if we make it any younger. The Rockets are already the youngest team in the league and you want to get even less experienced? The Sacramento Kings are a cautionary tale for teams that pursue youth at all costs. I think if Cousins had come into the league with a more mature locker room he wouldn't be making the same hotheaded mistakes he's making these days any more.




    You're right. I just think that some of our more youthful players should get more playing time. Even though all we pretty much have on the floor are young players.
    I understand the situation of Cousins, and I understand that we probably will not make that move because of the problems that could occur. I was simply just stating a different course of action.
  • Rahat Huq says 1 YEAR ago

    Sir Thursday, on 17 December 2012 - 19:21 PM said:


    I don't necessarily agree that the Bargnani/Valanciunas analogy applies here. In that case, you have two guys that play the same position due to physical attributes (and even then, I think it's arguable that with a bit more time to grow into his frame Valanciunas will be capable of being a much better post defender/physical big man), whereas with the Rockets you just have two players who's current skill sets are quite similar, and that's something that ca nbe changed/improved upon. There are two key skills that Lin needs to develop in order to play well with Harden: the ability to make a play off the catch and a reliable outside shot. Neither of these are innate attributes that can't be taught. Furthermore, at least with the first of those nobody on the team would have realised that Lin needed until the Harden deal was done.

    Part of the value of having young players is that you are able to mold their games to a certain extent to get them to maximise their talents with their environment, and I still think you can do that here without losing what Lin does well. I don't think that means remaking his game entirely - if that were the case then you'd be right. It's just one or two key things that aren't there right now but could be in a season's time.

    ST

    Very good point.
  • Sir Thursday says 1 YEAR ago

    Paradise, on 17 December 2012 - 18:50 PM said:


    Bench Lin, start Machado. Make a move for Demarcus Cousins. That's what would make me happy. The youth movement needs to be implemented more.


    I don't think it's possible to field a competitive basketball team if we make it any younger. The Rockets are already the youngest team in the league and you want to get even less experienced? The Sacramento Kings are a cautionary tale for teams that pursue youth at all costs. I think if Cousins had come into the league with a more mature locker room he wouldn't be making the same hotheaded mistakes he's making these days any more.

    Rahat Huq, on 17 December 2012 - 18:52 PM said:


    Sir Thursday: I see your point, but if you know something isn't an optimal fit, does it make sense to ride it out and gain stability with it? Wouldn't you cut the cord earlier and build stability with something else?

    For instance, the Raptors probably know Bargnani and Valanciunas can't play next to each other because they're both flowers. But they'd definitely improve with stability over the years. But if they know from the start that the peak will never be optimal, wouldn't they trade Bargnani from the start?


    I don't necessarily agree that the Bargnani/Valanciunas analogy applies here. In that case, you have two guys that play the same position due to physical attributes (and even then, I think it's arguable that with a bit more time to grow into his frame Valanciunas will be capable of being a much better post defender/physical big man), whereas with the Rockets you just have two players who's current skill sets are quite similar, and that's something that ca nbe changed/improved upon. There are two key skills that Lin needs to develop in order to play well with Harden: the ability to make a play off the catch and a reliable outside shot. Neither of these are innate attributes that can't be taught. Furthermore, at least with the first of those nobody on the team would have realised that Lin needed until the Harden deal was done.

    Part of the value of having young players is that you are able to mold their games to a certain extent to get them to maximise their talents with their environment, and I still think you can do that here without losing what Lin does well. I don't think that means remaking his game entirely - if that were the case then you'd be right. It's just one or two key things that aren't there right now but could be in a season's time.

    ST
  • Chichos says 1 YEAR ago We always hear that the easiest skill to acquire is a solid jump shot and Lin is a solid jump shot away from being a fringe all star.

    I really liked the Tony Parker comparisons Lin got after the San Antonio game. We have to at least wait another off seasons to see what Lin can become. He already looks like a much more complete player where fundamentals are concerned.

    When the Rockets invested in Lin they invested in his growth potential as much as his current production. So lets watch him grow. The kid can ball.
  • Rahat Huq says 1 YEAR ago I don't think I'd infect this team with Cousins. I wanted it before but that was before Harden.
  • SamC says 1 YEAR ago

    Paradise, on 17 December 2012 - 18:50 PM said:


    Make a move for Demarcus Cousins. That's what would make me happy.


    That might make you happy but Cousins is way too volatile.
  • Rahat Huq says 1 YEAR ago Sir Thursday: I see your point, but if you know something isn't an optimal fit, does it make sense to ride it out and gain stability with it? Wouldn't you cut the cord earlier and build stability with something else?

    For instance, the Raptors probably know Bargnani and Valanciunas can't play next to each other because they're both flowers. But they'd definitely improve with stability over the years. But if they know from the start that the peak will never be optimal, wouldn't they trade Bargnani from the start?
  • SamC says 1 YEAR ago What Lin needs is a coach who believes in him and gives him the green light. If he can play without worrying that he'll get benched as soon as he makes 1 mistake, he'll play much better.
  • Paradise says 1 YEAR ago Bench Lin, start Machado. Make a move for Demarcus Cousins. That's what would make me happy.
  • Sir Thursday says 1 YEAR ago I don't think trading Lin is the right move at this point. All of the best teams in the league have one of two things in common: experience (see New York, Boston) or stability (San Antonio, Miami, Memphis, OKC). Given the age of our roster, we are not going to get the first of those, so we need to aim for some of the second. At some point the high turnover of personnel has to stop in order for the players to get accustomed to their roles and figure out how to play with each other.

    As McHale has repeatedly said and has been obvious when watching the games, there is little sophistication to how the Rockets play right now. That is a product of youth and unfamiliarity, and for all that the team has great potential they do not have the skills required at the moment to be able to win on talent alone. The only way sets are going to be implemented and the team is going to evolve is if they are given some time to work together.

    In Lin's case, as many have pointed there appears (I am unwilling to outright say 'there is' because it's not like I can peer inside his skull) to be a mental block that's preventing him from playing his best basketball. But we can all see that basketball is spectacular when he is able to produce it. There is no reason to suspect that he won't be able to get past this in time - let us not forgot that many young players struggle with similar issues in their first season or so. Giving up on him after 20-30 games seems premature when you consider that many draft picks are given several years to display their potential.

    Also, I don't think I agree that this season has become a 'win-at-all-costs' exercise. Obviously it would be nice to get into the playoffs, but it will be far from the end of the world if they miss out. I definitely don't think that trading Lin in exchange for a couple of extra wins this season is worth it in the big picture.

    ST
  • Rahat Huq says 1 YEAR ago Andrew:

    My reason for wanting Pau is as a salary stop-gap until 2014. It's become apparent that this team will be doing its building through FA/trade and not through the draft. Thus, the goal should be to become as competitive as possible without taking on long term salary. Bringing in Pau, in my opinion, makes us a 50 win team (if extrapolated out to the full year) and makes us a threat. We keep the rest of our young nucleus intact. Then, when Pau is up in 2014, we look much more attractive on the market and bring someone else in.
  • AndrewMcCarthys says 1 YEAR ago @Rahat, what would we do with Pau? Sure he's an upgrade over Patterson right now and might put us into the 8th seed but afterwards what is his value to our team moving forward? He'd only further block development of our other potential future fours, right? Not trying to be sarcastic or anything, just curious as to why we keep scrambling back to Pau when it seems that ship sailed months ago.

    As for Lin, I don't see management shipping him out anytime soon. For one thing, the capital gains off his "brand" alone is worth keeping him for at least the year. Second, I might be in the minority, but I still feel this is too small of sample size to gauge what his potential with this team might be. That sample size is getting larger and harder to argue with every weak performance by Lin, but it's been a pretty tumultuous year for almost everyone on this team.

    Lastly, what happened to us? Weren't we totally prepared for a pretty rough year during the offseason? Landing Harden has drastically changed our fortunes but even then I didn't think we'd be much for serious competition. We're a young dumb team that makes a lot of stupid mistakes. That excuse still works right now but won't in a year or so.
  • Rahat Huq says 1 YEAR ago Do you all think the Lakers would go for a Lin/Gasol swap (with parts added in to even it out)? It would make the Rockets infinitely better as Lin basically is givng them nothing right now. I guess the rationale for LA would be to have a stop gap now until Nash comes back and then a long time solution after Nash moves on.
  • SamC says 1 YEAR ago I agree that benching Lin is not the answer. If the goal is to keep him, then the coaching staff has to give him more opportunities to learn from his mistakes or to gain confidence in his accomplishments. If the goal is to trade him, then the coaching staff has to put the ball in Lin's hands and give him opportunities to increase his trade value. And although I'm a Lin fan, from just watching the games this season, it's obvious that he's hurting the team more than helping right now. He has zero confidence in his game and the coaching staff has zero confidence in his game. But I argue that Douglas is just as bad.
  • Rahat Huq says 1 YEAR ago i think they should trade him. but i don't know if ownership would ever allow that.
  • bob schmidt says 1 YEAR ago I have nothing against Lin, but always feel that he only produces when he is in what I call a "jail break" mode. I see little of what I call the art and beauty of a controlled attack in the manner of a Stockton or Nash. As a Harvard man, I know he has the intellect to change/improve his game, but do not know if he has the right coaching and mindset to accomplish real change. If not, he will eventually join others on the scrap heap of guys that did not work out...
  • Alituro says 1 YEAR ago Maybe not, but we definitely need to replace our starting PG, and FAST! Lin still has some developing to do, and it's quite early in his contract to completely give up on him yet, but I would consider reasonable offers. I don't know what kind of motivation a team would have for giving up a decent PG for Lin though. We have plenty of incentive to develop him some more. But if we're going to try and continue to win games, it will need to be done with him coming off the bench. In the meantime, I'd start Douglas with the idea he'll continue to get a little better as well, and can showcase him in case a trade offer comes.

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