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Lin or Beverley: Who Should Start?

I want to piggy-back off of a post of Michael Pina’s from May, in which he evaluated Patrick Beverley’s contributions to the Rockets. In that post, Pina asked whether Beverley could realistically start over Lin. I want to re-visit this question in greater detail.

Last season, Lin started all of the Rockets’ 82 games and played 32 minutes per game to Beverley’s 17 minutes per game. In terms of overall efficiency, both players rated at around league average: each had a PER of almost exactly 15. Both player’s assist statistics and True Shooting percentages were also reasonably similar. Beverley, however, stood out in comparison to Lin in two fields in particular: three-point shooting and rebounding.

Beverley was clearly the superior three-point threat last season: he converted 38% of his three-point attempts last season while Lin converted only 34%. Beverley was also the more prolific three-point shooter: a full 50% of Beverley’s field goal attempts last season were three point shots, compared with just 30% for Lin. According to Synergy, the plurality (35%) of Beverley’s offensive possessions were spot-up opportunities, and 83% of these shots were three-pointers. He converted 42% of his spot-up threes, compared with just 35% for Lin.

Shot charts from NBA.com help highlight the differences in these two players’ shot distributions: Lin took a much larger share of his baskets at the rim, while Beverley largely lived behind the three-point arc (n.b.: the percentages in the charts represent the proportion of each player’s shots taken in each zone).

Lin Shot Distribution

Lin Shot Distribution

Beverley Shot Distribution

Beverley Shot Distribution

Besides being a much better three-point shooter than Lin, Beverley is also the superior rebounder. His 5.5 rebounds per 36 minutes dwarfed Lin’s 3.4 per 36. In particular, Beverley excelled on the offensive glass: his offensive rebounding rate ranked 3rd among all point guards last season and was ahead of that of Eric Bledsoe, an uber-athletic bench player who played a comparable amount of minutes.

As Rahat reminded us last week, Lin’s greatest asset on offense is his ability to score in the pick-and-roll and create his own offense. Surprisingly, Beverley was no slouch on these types of plays. According to Synergy, a larger proportion of Beverley’s offensive possessions came on isolation plays (18% vs. 13% for Lin), and he used these possessions more efficiently than Lin did (0.83 Points Per Possession (PPP) vs. 0.68 PPP for Lin). They performed identically in terms of scoring efficiency as the pick-and-roll (PNR) ball handler, although Lin devoted a larger proportion of his possessions to his bread and butter play. Beverley’s statistics are culled from a much smaller sample size, but he does have good speed and a nice in-between floater that presents a useful alternative to going directly at the basket, where his height and average hops limit his ability to finish at the rim.

Beverley is almost universally regarded as a better defender than Lin. Their defensive efficiency stats, per Synergy, however, are nearly identical for almost all types of defensive plays. Looking at overall team defensive performance helps differentiate the two players: the Rockets were 7 points per 100 possessions stingier on defense with Beverley on the court and actually 2 points per 100 possessions worse with Lin on the court.

So what is the upshot of all this analysis? Should Beverley get the start over Lin? I think he should. Beverley’s spot-up shooting makes him a better fit for a starting five that will already feature two usage-heavy players in Harden and Howard. His individual defense is also very valuable in a league in which point guard represents the deepest position talent-wise. The line-up data show that Beverley can be an effective complementary player when paired with the Rockets’ non-Lin starters. In the regular season, the Beverley-Harden-Delfino-Parsons-Asik unit put up a +24 points per 100 possessions margin. In the playoffs, with Lin largely sidelined, Beverley-Harden-Parsons-Asik and one of Garcia/Delfino soaked up the bulk of the Rockets’ minutes against Oklahoma City. These two line-ups posted net ratings of +17 points per 100 possessions and +5.5 points per 100 possessions in 78 and 26 minutes of total on-court time.

The fact remains that Jeremy Lin has a valuable skill set: he can create his own offense and score in the PNR, taking pressure off of James Harden. But with Dwight Howard in the mix, there may not be enough shots to go around for a starting line-up featuring Jeremy Lin. Instead, his production may be maximized by serving as a 6th man, initiating the offense when Harden goes to the bench. While there is scant line-up data to show how Lin fares when playing without Harden, it is not too far-fetched to imagine Lin becoming a very effective offense-first force off the bench. If the Rockets elect to primarily play Asik with the bench units, Houston may have a pair of line-ups (starting and bench) with a enviable mix of offensive and defensive talent. Lin has certainly done nothing to “lose” his starting position. As Manu Ginobli has shown, however, individual sacrifice in the form of a sixth-man role is sometimes necessary for the betterment of the team. Lin would do well to embrace such a role.

 

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  • RollingWave says 1 YEAR ago

    I would say that what Ming Wang wrote would be true IF the whole thing holds up overtime, the problem is that the sample size on Beverley is very limited and the one on Lin is very skewed , we don't have breakdown of Synergy or +/- in different months etc.. it's hard to evaluate (though I'm sure the Rockets FO have all that and then some.), though it is true that with Howard and Harden out there, whoever 's the PG is not going to get a lot of plays run through them.

    Of course, one should note that Lin did shoot around 40% from 3 in the last 2 months or so, if he does that, he's going to get plenty of play.

    I should generally note that players with Beverley's style doesn't seem to hold up well with expanded minutes, Tony Allen for example, while he starts, doesn't actually play that many minutes.

    At the end of the day, who's standing on the floor at tip off is largely irrelevant, you can pull guys quickly anyway, even if they do split Harden and Lin's time going forward (which I think they totally would.) they'll still end up overlapping a good amount . so those minutes being the first 5 or somewhere in in the middle doesn't make any difference.

    Some argument in Lin's favor is that you have to look at % of shots assisted, in which case Lin wins out pretty easily, this means that Lin was creating his own shots, while Beverley was on the receiving end of a lot of Harden / Lin play making, this of course could also say that Bev is a better off ball player which may play well with Harden.

    I'd generally think that Beverley will play more with Harden than Lin does this year, which does not necessarily equate to Bev standing out there at tip off, those things are not really connected. because I doubt their time spread will change that much this year. with the exception that they'll probably scale back Harden's minutes a bit.

  • AlphaBeta says 1 YEAR ago

    it's funny how no one seems to want to wait for a guy who's played less than Parsons in minutes to improve. He's either viewed as good or terrible - not "he's learning".....can't remember last player in this position.

  • RYLIU says 1 YEAR ago

    >>one of the most function of a point guard?
    Meant to say
    >>one of the most important function of a point guard?

  • RYLIU says 1 YEAR ago

    Seem like focus of the comparison is mostly on offensive and defensive stats. How about setting up the team and controlling tempo? Shouldn't that be one of the most function of a point guard? ie making sure people are in right position, calling plays, keeping track of touches, ... etc.

    I'd be interested to know folk's thought comparing Bev vs Lin on that. Would there be any stats measuring effectiveness there. Last year, didn't seem like Bev did too much of that; so it's hard to evaluate if he is ready for that .... or are people thinking we want Harden to shoulder that responsibility?

  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago

    I'm not going to disagree with that. I am talking about which player is going to be the best starter for this team next season.

    In the rare time when they were firing on all cylinders, Harden and Lin were one, if not the best back court in the NBA. Lets see if they can harness that to everyday games and if not, we will see where they will go from there.

  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago

    Sorry, but I still believe the right answer is: Goran Dragic.

    He was a pretty good and underrated PG.

  • Zero Zero says 1 YEAR ago

    Sorry, but I still believe the right answer is: Goran Dragic.

  • txtdo1411 says 1 YEAR ago

    Lin is usually viewed with a much higher ceiling though.

    I'm not going to disagree with that. I am talking about which player is going to be the best starter for this team next season.

  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago

    It seems like we all accept the fact that Lin improved over the course of the season.Whether the slow start was contributed to playingwith a new team, coming off an injury, adjusting to a new role, etc. He improved throughout the season in most aspects of his game. He should continue to improve with a full offseason with the Rockets. I don't doubt that he does improve, and hopefully he improves to the point where we can discontinue all the discussions of Lin vs. Beverley. The only issue I have with what most are saying, is we are completely blind to the fact that Beverley should also improve. We have to realize and take into consideration that Beverley was a rookie in the NBA last year. It was his first time to ever play against elite competition. He didn't haveaccess to the best trainers/coaches while playing overseas.He was also joining a new team and system. He had even less time to adjust than Lin. At least Lin had some of the off season and preseason. Beverley came right in the thick of things.

    I am in no way saying that Beverley is better than Lin, or should start before Lin. I willcontinue towait until weare able to watch them play a few games together before I decide whoI believe is better as a starter on this team.I just think it is an injustice to not acknowledge that Beverley, like Lin,should be able to improve drasticallyover a full offseason after adjusting to a new team, system, and role.

    Lin is usually viewed with a much higher ceiling though.

  • hizzobbes says 1 YEAR ago

    Yeah, regardless of the player's names you really can't say that one guy is definitely a better shooter when comparing the percentages of one who took 900 shots vs the other who took less than 200.

    All the other stats are skewed as well due to Beverley playing 713 back up minutes beginning in January... Lin started all 82 games for a total of 2,640 minutes (and played a lot better later on).

    I just don't think base stats are a good way to compare these two guys. There are a lot of arguments to be made but this isn't one of them.

    Could Beverley develop into an awesome PG for our team? For sure. Keep going hard on defense, polish your passing, and knock down those 3's. Both guys have been working hard this summer so let's see what they do on the court in training camp... My guess is that Lin would still be the starter.

  • txtdo1411 says 1 YEAR ago

    It seems like we all accept the fact that Lin improved over the course of the season.Whether the slow start was contributed to playingwith a new team, coming off an injury, adjusting to a new role, etc. He improved throughout the season in most aspects of his game. He should continue to improve with a full offseason with the Rockets. I don't doubt that he does improve, and hopefully he improves to the point where we can discontinue all the discussions of Lin vs. Beverley. The only issue I have with what most are saying, is we are completely blind to the fact that Beverley should also improve. We have to realize and take into consideration that Beverley was a rookie in the NBA last year. It was his first time to ever play against elite competition. He didn't haveaccess to the best trainers/coaches while playing overseas.He was also joining a new team and system. He had even less time to adjust than Lin. At least Lin had some of the off season and preseason. Beverley came right in the thick of things.

    I am in no way saying that Beverley is better than Lin, or should start before Lin. I willcontinue towait until weare able to watch them play a few games together before I decide whoI believe is better as a starter on this team.I just think it is an injustice to not acknowledge that Beverley, like Lin,should be able to improve drasticallyover a full offseason after adjusting to a new team, system, and role.

  • Knickabokkaz says 1 YEAR ago Lol comparing stats of a bench player in Beverley with less opportunity, less shots, in a completely different role compared to a starter is like saying...

    1. D12 shoots 7/10 in the first 20 games in free throws. "D12 is a 70% shooter from he line"! Really? You got another 62 games to go, let me know when he shoots another 620 free throws then we can talk.

    2. Wow did you see that horse blast out the gate! He's 2 horses ahead of the supposed favorite! Yeah but it's a 5 mile race, that horse with the fast start just ran out of breath and the favorite won by more the a mile.

    3. Jeremy Lin averaged 24/7 during Linsanity! Yea, right till Melo got back and messed everything up.

    Performances aren't judged by small portions times 10 to fill out a whole season in a backup role comparing that to a starter. Anyone with common sense understands the examples I just put out.
  • RedEdNY says 1 YEAR ago

    First time poster here and a big fan of red94.net.

    I thought I had something new to add to the discussion, but I realized the Jeremy Lin topic in all its different forms has yet to be distilled. Bean counters and statisticians love nothing more to skew facts to their own accord and that hasn't changed when it comes to Mr Lin. In fact, I'm seeing the noiseiest argument used against Jeremy Lin in 2012-2013 get overlooked when comparing him to Patrick Beverly. However you want to look at his performance during the reg and the playoffs, there's no question about it - this kid's sample size is smaller than Lin's 2012-2013 season.

    The stats (basketball-refrence.com?) used in the Ming Wang's analysis does not factor in Lin's adjustment period to a new team, his inability to work on his game due to rehab, and accepting a new (lesser) role than primary ball handler - his forte we all understand. The Rockets were at their best when firing on all cylinders, not when Harden was solely running the show. And while it remains to be scene how effective the tandem of Harden and Howard will perform, we know the backcourt of Harden and Lin can make it rain in buckets, injury laden playoff absence notwithstanding.

    Folks singing the 2nd unit song for Lin must think 48 minutes is a marathon. What I see is a thinly veiled diss suggesting the 8million dollar man should take the reigns for 12-20min a game. The bench is the bench. Whether you're the 6th man or the 10th man, each person is asking the same question - when is the coach going to put me in? There's no question Lin would set the temp without Harden in the line-up, and exceed expectations with whoever he plays with; one of his greatest attributes is his ability to make everyone elevate their game. Doing so would be a disservice to the first unit, to Howard, Harden, Parsons, and whoever fits into the PF position.

    Lin's future in Houston is at stake but it's his to lose, not the other way around. Beverly's grade is Incomplete.

  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago

    We have to see the results of this offseason before making the decision of who starts, because it is all about improvement.

  • Alituro says 1 YEAR ago

    Ming, good write-up. This basically sums up my feelings about this situation also. Keep in mind folks, that a starting 5 of an NBA basketball team accounts for, or is played for about 60-70% of the entire game. The remaining 30-40% of minutes played by the bench is as relatively important to the starter's minutes. This also applies to my defense of the position on holding onto Asik (if we can).. If your starters produce at a level 125% better than their counterparts (collectively) and your 2nd unit only competes at a 60-70% level compared to their counterparts then your starter's work has been completely negated. It is absolutely imperative that you maintain your level of production as closely as possible throughout 48 minutes of every game (See: Popovich).

    Harden and Lin's games are so similar, to me, that it makes no sense to have them on the court at the same time (except maybe in our small-ball lineups). They are both premier PnR guards. If Lin is working a PnR and Harden is on the floor, what the hell is Harden doing if he's not applying his greatest strength to each particular play, and vice-versa when Harden is working the PnR? What happens to your PnR game when both are resting? (Hint: It's not as dangerous)..

    So, regardless of who's individual stats are superior or who improved what after the All-Star break (Bev also improved after the break because it's the first damn time he's set foot on an NBA floor( a huge factor, also in the disparity between their stats)), the question being asked, is who is a better fit with the starting unit? Who would serve better coming off the bench to ensure that we maintain a certain level of production? Beverley, and Lin, respectively.

    A second unit of Lin, Williams, Garcia, D-mo/Smith, Asik would be able to compete with about 1/2 of the league's starting units and should be able to demolish about any bench night in and out.. Swap out Beverley for Lin, is it as deadly? No because you've hampered your ability to be as effective on the PnRs.

    A starting unit of Bev, Harden, CP, Jones, Howard is one that can and will contend. Swap out Bev for Lin, is it any more potent? Possibly, but only slightly (only Harden OR Lin can run a successful PnR on any given play, not both). Is the expense from the bench worth it? I don't think so.

    Even Lin-first fans should be all for this. The truth is, that if Lin is on the floor with Harden, he'll always be living in his shadow. If he comes off the bench as the primary scorer for the second unit, then is usage rates will skyrocket and he should be in serious consideration for 6MOTY awards, setting himself up for another pay raise ala Harden...

  • Richards says 1 YEAR ago

    We don't know for sure who is the best fit with Parsons, Harden, and Howard. Lin, Bev, or Cannon? Nobody knows.

    These stats are for last year. We now have new player in Howard, may be we will have a playbook, new style, etc. We also don't know who start at PF.

    A lot of unknown and we can't judge intelligently until preseason camp is over. Even then, still might be muddy as ever.

  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago

    New post: Lin or Beverley: Who Should Start?
    By: ming wang


    I want to piggy-back off of a post of Michael Pina's from May, in which he evaluated Patrick Beverley's contributions to the Rockets. In that post, Pina asked whether Beverley could realistically start over Lin. I want to re-visit this question in greater detail.
    Last season, Lin started all of the Rockets' 82 games and played 32 minutes per game to Beverley's 17 minutes per game. In terms of overall efficiency, both players rated at around league average: each had a PER of almost exactly 15. Both player's assist statistics and True Shooting percentages were also reasonably similar. Beverley, however, stood out in comparison to Lin in two fields in particular: three-point shooting and rebounding.
    Beverley was clearly the superior three-point threat last season: he converted 38% of his three-point attempts last season while Lin converted only 34%. Beverley was also the more prolific three-point shooter: a full 50% of Beverley's field goal attempts last season were three point shots, compared with just 30% for Lin. According to Synergy, the plurality (35%) of Beverley's offensive possessions were spot-up opportunities, and 83% of these shots were three-pointers. He converted 42% of his spot-up threes, compared with just 35% for Lin.
    Shot charts from NBA.com help highlight the differences in these two players' shot distributions: Lin took a much larger share of his baskets at the rim, while Beverley largely lived behind the three-point arc (n.b.: the percentages in the charts represent the proportion of each player's shots taken in each zone).
    [caption id="attachment_13025" align="alignnone" width="300">Jeremy-Lin-Shot-Distribution-300x282.png Lin Shot Distribution[/caption>
    [caption id="attachment_13026" align="alignnone" width="300">Patrick-Beverley-Shot-Distribution-300x2 Beverley Shot Distribution[/caption>
    Besides being a much better three-point shooter than Lin, Beverley is also the superior rebounder. His 5.5 rebounds per 36 minutes dwarfed Lin's 3.4 per 36. In particular, Beverley excelled on the offensive glass: his offensive rebounding rate ranked 3rd among all point guards last season and was ahead of that of Eric Bledsoe, an uber-athletic bench player who played a comparable amount of minutes.
    As Rahat reminded us last week, Lin's greatest asset on offense is his ability to score in the pick-and-roll and create his own offense. Surprisingly, Beverley was no slouch on these types of plays. According to Synergy, a larger proportion of Beverley's offensive possessions came on isolation plays (18% vs. 13% for Lin), and he used these possessions more efficiently than Lin did (0.83 Points Per Possession (PPP) vs. 0.68 PPP for Lin). They performed identically in terms of scoring efficiency as the pick-and-roll (PNR) ball handler, although Lin devoted a larger proportion of his possessions to his bread and butter play. Beverley's statistics are culled from a much smaller sample size, but he does have good speed and a nice in-between floater that presents a useful alternative to going directly at the basket, where his height and average hops limit his ability to finish at the rim.
    Beverley is almost universally regarded as a better defender than Lin. Their defensive efficiency stats, per Synergy, however, are nearly identical for almost all types of defensive plays. Looking at overall team defensive performance helps differentiate the two players: the Rockets were 7 points per 100 possessions stingier on defense with Beverley on the court and actually 2 points per 100 possessions worse with Lin on the court.
    So what is the upshot of all this analysis? Should Beverley get the start over Lin? I think he should. Beverley's spot-up shooting makes him a better fit for a starting five that will already feature two usage-heavy players in Harden and Howard. His individual defense is also very valuable in a league in which point guard represents the deepest position talent-wise. The line-up data show that Beverley can be an effective complementary player when paired with the Rockets' non-Lin starters. In the regular season, the Beverley-Harden-Delfino-Parsons-Asik unit put up a +24 points per 100 possessions margin. In the playoffs, with Lin largely sidelined, Beverley-Harden-Parsons-Asik and one of Garcia/Delfino soaked up the bulk of the Rockets' minutes against Oklahoma City. These two line-ups posted net ratings of +17 points per 100 possessions and +5.5 points per 100 possessions in 78 and 26 minutes of total on-court time.
    The fact remains that Jeremy Lin has a valuable skill set: he can create his own offense and score in the PNR, taking pressure off of James Harden. But with Dwight Howard in the mix, there may not be enough shots to go around for a starting line-up featuring Jeremy Lin. Instead, his production may be maximized by serving as a 6th man, initiating the offense when Harden goes to the bench. While there is scant line-up data to show how Lin fares when playing without Harden, it is not too far-fetched to imagine Lin becoming a very effective offense-first force off the bench. If the Rockets elect to primarily play Asik with the bench units, Houston may have a pair of line-ups (starting and bench) with a enviable mix of offensive and defensive talent. Lin has certainly done nothing to "lose" his starting position. As Manu Ginobli has shown, however, individual sacrifice in the form of a sixth-man role is sometimes necessary for the betterment of the team. Lin would do well to embrace such a role.

    Thank you for your unbiased stat driven article.
  • BrentYen says 1 YEAR ago

    I appreciate your attempt, but you left out a few key factors. Lin's improvement over the course of the season, for one.

    Your assertions are not wrong, however. I think Lin would excel off the bench. Are we ready to give Harden the ball even more? Because Bev certainly can't run the offense. That puts more pressure on Harden and we all saw him break down last year with the increased burden.

    Good point.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    The problem with these comparisons is the lack of acknowledgement towards Lin's drasticimprovement post the All-Star break, he was clearly not 100% pre All-Star break because he was still recovering from knee surgery.

    Lin's per 36 post All-Star:

    17.2 pts

    6.8 ast

    46% fg

    37% 3pt

    2.3 TO

    Beverley's per 36 post All-Star:

    11.1pts

    5.4 ast

    42% fg

    39% 3pt

    2.1 TO

    It's going to be very interesting to see how the comparison looks after Lin has a full season where he's 100%.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago I appreciate your attempt, but you left out a few key factors. Lin's improvement over the course of the season, for one.

    Your assertions are not wrong, however. I think Lin would excel off the bench. Are we ready to give Harden the ball even more? Because Bev certainly can't run the offense. That puts more pressure on Harden and we all saw him break down last year with the increased burden.
  • Red94 says 1 YEAR ago New post: Lin or Beverley: Who Should Start?
    By: ming wang

    I want to piggy-back off of a post of Michael Pina's from May, in which he evaluated Patrick Beverley's contributions to the Rockets. In that post, Pina asked whether Beverley could realistically start over Lin. I want to re-visit this question in greater detail.

    Last season, Lin started all of the Rockets' 82 games and played 32 minutes per game to Beverley's 17 minutes per game. In terms of overall efficiency, both players rated at around league average: each had a PER of almost exactly 15. Both player's assist statistics and True Shooting percentages were also reasonably similar. Beverley, however, stood out in comparison to Lin in two fields in particular: three-point shooting and rebounding.

    Beverley was clearly the superior three-point threat last season: he converted 38% of his three-point attempts last season while Lin converted only 34%. Beverley was also the more prolific three-point shooter: a full 50% of Beverley's field goal attempts last season were three point shots, compared with just 30% for Lin. According to Synergy, the plurality (35%) of Beverley's offensive possessions were spot-up opportunities, and 83% of these shots were three-pointers. He converted 42% of his spot-up threes, compared with just 35% for Lin.

    Shot charts from NBA.com help highlight the differences in these two players' shot distributions: Lin took a much larger share of his baskets at the rim, while Beverley largely lived behind the three-point arc (n.b.: the percentages in the charts represent the proportion of each player's shots taken in each zone).

    [caption id="attachment_13025" align="alignnone" width="300">Lin Shot Distribution Lin Shot Distribution[/caption>

    [caption id="attachment_13026" align="alignnone" width="300">Beverley Shot Distribution Beverley Shot Distribution[/caption>

    Besides being a much better three-point shooter than Lin, Beverley is also the superior rebounder. His 5.5 rebounds per 36 minutes dwarfed Lin's 3.4 per 36. In particular, Beverley excelled on the offensive glass: his offensive rebounding rate ranked 3rd among all point guards last season and was ahead of that of Eric Bledsoe, an uber-athletic bench player who played a comparable amount of minutes.

    As Rahat reminded us last week, Lin's greatest asset on offense is his ability to score in the pick-and-roll and create his own offense. Surprisingly, Beverley was no slouch on these types of plays. According to Synergy, a larger proportion of Beverley's offensive possessions came on isolation plays (18% vs. 13% for Lin), and he used these possessions more efficiently than Lin did (0.83 Points Per Possession (PPP) vs. 0.68 PPP for Lin). They performed identically in terms of scoring efficiency as the pick-and-roll (PNR) ball handler, although Lin devoted a larger proportion of his possessions to his bread and butter play. Beverley's statistics are culled from a much smaller sample size, but he does have good speed and a nice in-between floater that presents a useful alternative to going directly at the basket, where his height and average hops limit his ability to finish at the rim.

    Beverley is almost universally regarded as a better defender than Lin. Their defensive efficiency stats, per Synergy, however, are nearly identical for almost all types of defensive plays. Looking at overall team defensive performance helps differentiate the two players: the Rockets were 7 points per 100 possessions stingier on defense with Beverley on the court and actually 2 points per 100 possessions worse with Lin on the court.

    So what is the upshot of all this analysis? Should Beverley get the start over Lin? I think he should. Beverley's spot-up shooting makes him a better fit for a starting five that will already feature two usage-heavy players in Harden and Howard. His individual defense is also very valuable in a league in which point guard represents the deepest position talent-wise. The line-up data show that Beverley can be an effective complementary player when paired with the Rockets' non-Lin starters. In the regular season, the Beverley-Harden-Delfino-Parsons-Asik unit put up a +24 points per 100 possessions margin. In the playoffs, with Lin largely sidelined, Beverley-Harden-Parsons-Asik and one of Garcia/Delfino soaked up the bulk of the Rockets' minutes against Oklahoma City. These two line-ups posted net ratings of +17 points per 100 possessions and +5.5 points per 100 possessions in 78 and 26 minutes of total on-court time.

    The fact remains that Jeremy Lin has a valuable skill set: he can create his own offense and score in the PNR, taking pressure off of James Harden. But with Dwight Howard in the mix, there may not be enough shots to go around for a starting line-up featuring Jeremy Lin. Instead, his production may be maximized by serving as a 6th man, initiating the offense when Harden goes to the bench. While there is scant line-up data to show how Lin fares when playing without Harden, it is not too far-fetched to imagine Lin becoming a very effective offense-first force off the bench. If the Rockets elect to primarily play Asik with the bench units, Houston may have a pair of line-ups (starting and bench) with a enviable mix of offensive and defensive talent. Lin has certainly done nothing to "lose" his starting position. As Manu Ginobli has shown, however, individual sacrifice in the form of a sixth-man role is sometimes necessary for the betterment of the team. Lin would do well to embrace such a role.

  • Losthief says 1 YEAR ago

    i'd argue smiths rebounding has immense value on another team that doesn't feature asik/howard. But for the rockets i can see your point. But I still think he can develop into defending 4s, as its more a spacing issue with him rather than raw ability.

  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago

    Bev, Canaan have a chance to be great (by this term I am referring to a person who can be a starter on most teams through two contracts). They have a skill. Bev is like the water torture, drip drip drip. Always in your face, harassing PGs (when allowed).

    Canaan can shot. It wouldn't surprise me if he was a 40%+ 3 point shooter during his career, which on this team with Harden playing with the ball so much is a must have skill.

    Both have flaws, but their positives outweigh their negatives. With strengthing their positives, and limiting the negative aspects of their games, both can move up towards the upper tier of PGs.

    Smith has a decent low post game, but his lack of defensive position will always be greater then whatever input he has on the offensive side of the ball.

    Upper tier of PGs!? You really are grabbing at straws friends.
  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago


    Bev has almost zero discernible PG qualities. He can only be a starter on a team with an elite wing a la Harden Lebron. So there goes that theory. Canaan can shoot but at best he's Jerryd Bayless.

    Agreed, same thing with Canaan.
  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago


    I either want a veteran bench player, or a young player who has the chance to be great. No young player whose talents top out at role player, ie Smith.

    Then you will be severely disappointed.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago Bev has almost zero discernible PG qualities. He can only be a starter on a team with an elite wing a la Harden Lebron. So there goes that theory. Canaan can shoot but at best he's Jerryd Bayless.
  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago Bev, Canaan have a chance to be great (by this term I am referring to a person who can be a starter on most teams through two contracts). They have a skill. Bev is like the water torture, drip drip drip. Always in your face, harassing PGs (when allowed).

    Canaan can shot. It wouldn't surprise me if he was a 40%+ 3 point shooter during his career, which on this team with Harden playing with the ball so much is a must have skill.

    Both have flaws, but their positives outweigh their negatives. With strengthing their positives, and limiting the negative aspects of their games, both can move up towards the upper tier of PGs.

    Smith has a decent low post game, but his lack of defensive position will always be greater then whatever input he has on the offensive side of the ball.
  • Losthief says 1 YEAR ago

    I either want a veteran bench player, or a young player who has the chance to be great. No young player whose talents top out at role player, ie Smith.

    ok, that makes more sense as an agruement...but i just don't think theres enough good young players and/or useful vets to go around. But i get your point now. Vets cost more than smith, canaan, bev, etc etc young players tho, but i wouldn't be upset if we found enough vets to stock our bench. I think finding youngsters with star potential for every slot is impossible imho, but a worthy goal.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    I either want a veteran bench player, or a young player who has the chance to be great. No young player whose talents top out at role player, ie Smith.

    I agree with the sentiment. Let's cut Beverley, Canaan, Smith and sign veterans.

  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago I either want a veteran bench player, or a young player who has the chance to be great. No young player whose talents top out at role player, ie Smith.
  • Losthief says 1 YEAR ago

    I'm sorry I want this team to win and not be stuck with below average players who won't amount to anything but decent role players. Role players are what veterans getting paid the minimum are for, not "young" players with potential. Greg Smith will never be a starter in this league on a good team. That's what the young bench players should be, people who can start for you in the future, not people your hoping can be your fourth C and 3rd PF. Raw and 22 don't work. Smith is who he is, a undersized C who isn't athletic enough to guard the 4 spot.

    your arguement is returning a error here:

    Role Players are what veterans getting paid the minimum are for, not "young players with potential"===ok, i disagree about the value of that, but i get your point, and respect it. Go for veterans on the cheap, not a bad idea.

    but then you say

    That's what the young bench players should be, people who can start for you in the future, Raw adn 22 don't work===this is where you lost me, you want us to get veterans, not young players with potential, but then say we need YOUNG players with STARTING futures and greg smith (who you say is only 22, and is still raw) is already written off?, im just confused.

    Do you want veterans on the minimum with some starting history, rotation minutes in the past, or do you want young (22 yeras old is young) and potential (raw is another word for that) you say both...but thats literally impossible to get a young veteran with experience playing but also with eventual starting potential talent at every spot....usually those guys are starting already cause obviously thats where they got the experience to be a 'veteran' from. And, I guarentee morey doesn't think of greg smith's future as the 3rd pf/4th center long-term, thats what the raw and young greg smith gives, a older more rounded may be higher, like 7th man.

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    I cued up The Rockets vs. Thunder game 6 which features Greg Smith's season-killing -16 +/-. Smith first enters the game at the 30:20 mark. I saw Smith make one defensive mistake. Aside from missing two free throws he played well. I have actually refuted this contention before (shortly after it happened) but apparently that wasn't good enough, so here is the video evidence to support the fact that the Rockets' other players were the culprits on offense, and on defense OKC just went off during that stretch. Don't believe me...just watch...it's only 7.5 minutes of game time.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KtwrWkbzClA&t=1821

  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago


    This was meant to prove a point in which even a superstar in Harden didn't even achieve close to his standers in the playoffs, doesn't mean he's a bad player. Same rule applies to Lin and smith. Now stop judging players on a 6 game series when we were 8th seed.


    I'm sorry I want this team to win and not be stuck with below average players who won't amount to anything but decent role players. Role players are what veterans getting paid the minimum are for, not "young" players with potential. Greg Smith will never be a starter in this league on a good team. That's what the young bench players should be, people who can start for you in the future, not people your hoping can be your fourth C and 3rd PF. Raw and 22 don't work. Smith is who he is, a undersized C who isn't athletic enough to guard the 4 spot.
  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago This was meant to prove a point in which even a superstar in Harden didn't even achieve close to his standers in the playoffs, doesn't mean he's a bad player. Same rule applies to Lin and smith. Now stop judging players on a 6 game series when we were 8th seed.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago Sadly, Harden is no PG. With Lin gone we had no one to run the offense. Harden going ISO was the best choice.
  • Cooper says 1 YEAR ago


    No harden should have known that if he's shooting bad, he has to run the team and get them quality shots before you get your own. Should have taken more of a pg role with Lin out. If I'm a leader, and I'm shooting like crap, It's my RESPONSIBILITY to get others going. Not to keep forcing shots. That's what he should have done knowing Beverley is not capable of that. But harden is young and he'll learn from that experience. Otherwise to me, he's just another Carmelo Anthony playing hero-ball.

    at some point hero ball is better than Beverly Garcia asik Etc taking contested shots. He's the guy even if he's shooting poorly he has to at least get to the ft line.
  • feelingsupersonic says 1 YEAR ago

    No harden should have known that if he's shooting bad, he has to run the team and get them quality shots before you get your own. Should have taken more of a pg role with Lin out. If I'm a leader, and I'm shooting like crap, It's my RESPONSIBILITY to get others going. Not to keep forcing shots. That's what he should have done knowing Beverley is not capable of that. But harden is young and he'll learn from that experience. Otherwise to me, he's just another Carmelo Anthony playing hero-ball.

    I find it quite difficult to agree with any of this. There is a bigger picture here that includes Harden's minutes played, an over achieving team and teammates lacking in talent. Your take seems relatively naive.

  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago


    When did efficiency start to matter? I don't remember people complaining about Jordan, saying he is not efficient. Or Kobe when he was winning championships.

    Ya efficiency matters and by your standards he cracked under pressure so should we get rid of harden along with Lin and Smith?
  • Knickabokkaz says 1 YEAR ago No harden should have known that if he's shooting bad, he has to run the team and get them quality shots before you get your own. Should have taken more of a pg role with Lin out. If I'm a leader, and I'm shooting like crap, It's my RESPONSIBILITY to get others going. Not to keep forcing shots. That's what he should have done knowing Beverley is not capable of that. But harden is young and he'll learn from that experience. Otherwise to me, he's just another Carmelo Anthony playing hero-ball.
  • Cooper says 1 YEAR ago


    Im not complaing about the amount of shots, im saying that taking that many shots but only hitting 34.1% with an efficiency % of 45.7% when you have the ball 30% of your possessions, its BAD. So you have the ball that much and you ONLY AVERAGE 4.5 assists is even worse. A leader creates opportunities that make their teammates better. Obviously that wasn't the case.

    obviously should have benched him for James Anderson
  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    Im not complaing about the amount of shots, im saying that taking that many shots but only hitting 34.1% with an efficiency % of 45.7% when you have the ball 30% of your possessions, its BAD. So you have the ball that much and you ONLY AVERAGE 4.5 assists is even worse. A leader creates opportunities that make their teammates better. Obviously that wasn't the case.

    It's not his fault. Beverley was the main issue. We all know that Parsons is not a great ball handler. Without Lin, the only person who had the skills to handle the ball and run an offense was Harden. We all like what Bev brings to the table, but that is something that is missing from his game. Even good point guards struggle when their 2 guard and SF can't handle the ball. We can't blame Harden for that. If he struggles that badly next year WITH Lin in the playoffs or whoever his replacement is, then we can be critical.

  • Knickabokkaz says 1 YEAR ago

    so he averaged 19 shots per game who else was going to take them? Parsons was already shooting 15 shots per game so its not like he could have done a lot more. Without Lin who besides those 2 do you go to score? Patrick Beverley? Fransico Garcia? It's not like he was taking shots away from lebron


    Im not complaing about the amount of shots, im saying that taking that many shots but only hitting 34.1% with an efficiency % of 45.7% when you have the ball 30% of your possessions, its BAD. So you have the ball that much and you ONLY AVERAGE 4.5 assists is even worse. A leader creates opportunities that make their teammates better. Obviously that wasn't the case.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    Why are we judging guys based on a small sample size. It's not like there's a repeated history of failing in the playoffs. I think we'll have to wait and see until next year's playoffs to determine whether any of these guys are not good enough to be on a contender. A lot of people wrote Harden off after disappearing miserably in the finals, and look what he's done in Houston. Sometimes, snap judgments cause people to look foolish.

  • Knickabokkaz says 1 YEAR ago

    When did efficiency start to matter? I don't remember people complaining about Jordan, saying he is not efficient. Or Kobe when he was winning championships.


    Wow lol, how are you going to complain about the best player ever that average .487% fg% in the playoffs
  • Cooper says 1 YEAR ago


    simply put, for anyone to judge anyones performance for the first time being in the playoffs is just not even fair. Parsons was the only bright spot. Smith shouldnt even be mentioned. There's a huge difference when you just look at points, i look at points, fg%, efg% turnovers assists, for a SG and for Harden, even though he average 26pts/ 4.5 asissts, 6.5 rebounds doesnt mean he had a great playoffs, his fg% was 34.1% (which is horrible) efg% 45.7% (which is bad for someone who always has the ball) and 4.5 turnovers a game. i'll say it again, just because you shoot alot and you score alot doesnt mean you did the team any good. he averaged 19 shots per game. consider that factor. name one other SUPERSTAR that shoots 34.1% in a playoff series.

    so he averaged 19 shots per game who else was going to take them? Parsons was already shooting 15 shots per game so its not like he could have done a lot more. Without Lin who besides those 2 do you go to score? Patrick Beverley? Fransico Garcia? It's not like he was taking shots away from lebron
  • Cooper says 1 YEAR ago


    It wasn't that harden was less efficient, it was he was horrible in efficiency.


    But it's still ridiculous to compare Greg smith being inefficient and putting up bad stats and generally looking lost to harden and Howard that's totally different. Greg smith is a fringe bench player, it's generally accepted harden and Howard are star players.
  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago When did efficiency start to matter? I don't remember people complaining about Jordan, saying he is not efficient. Or Kobe when he was winning championships.
  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago


    17-11 is nothing to be ashamed of especially when their backcourt was Darius Morris and Andrew goudelouck. In Comparison to asik who you said did well with 12-11 seems a bit odd that Howard was so horrible. Also I'd be suprised if there was a star player that was more efficient in the playoffs compared to regular season

    It wasn't that harden was less efficient, it was he was horrible in efficiency.
  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago


    Don't put words in my mouth. Howard lead Rafer Alston to the finals. Harden was the difference in the WCF the prior year.

    Many people believe harden folding in the finals last year caused the thunder to lose 4-1 and I'm not putting words in your mouth. These are your words, they can't survive the pressure cooker of the playoffs which are the real test of a player by your standards. Not being mean or insulting but you are being rather hypercritical.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago Harden was pretty awful in the finals, but unlike some I don't judge based off of one series. Some look at Lin's playoffs and think scrub. Some look at Harden in the finals and think choker. But I look at the whole picture.
  • Knickabokkaz says 1 YEAR ago

    simply put, for anyone to judge anyones performance for the first time being in the playoffs is just not even fair. Parsons was the only bright spot. Smith shouldnt even be mentioned. There's a huge difference when you just look at points, i look at points, fg%, efg% turnovers assists, for a SG and for Harden, even though he average 26pts/ 4.5 asissts, 6.5 rebounds doesnt mean he had a great playoffs, his fg% was 34.1% (which is horrible) efg% 45.7% (which is bad for someone who always has the ball) and 4.5 turnovers a game. i'll say it again, just because you shoot alot and you score alot doesnt mean you did the team any good. he averaged 19 shots per game. consider that factor. name one other SUPERSTAR that shoots 34.1% in a playoff series.

  • RocketMansinceStevieFrance says 1 YEAR ago

    I am new on this site obviously, just trying to get my foot in the door. Hopefully people like everything I say and if not I am sorry.. Smith looked very sloppy during the playoffs but it seemed due to the lack of experience. I seen that game in person and felt that he needed to improve his hands around the basket alot better with Harden and everyone else driving and dishing around the rim. Missed a bunch of easy points because of that, even Asik struggled with that throughout the year. But in my mind Smith is all raw talent and can really be a big asset for this team if he continues to improve.

  • Cooper says 1 YEAR ago

    Howard was shut down by the spurs and Harden had the worst shot efficiency of his career and by Steven's standards, they couldn't handle the pressure cooker of the playoffs.


    17-11 is nothing to be ashamed of especially when their backcourt was Darius Morris and Andrew goudelouck. In Comparison to asik who you said did well with 12-11 seems a bit odd that Howard was so horrible. Also I'd be suprised if there was a star player that was more efficient in the playoffs compared to regular season
  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago


    Howard was shut down by the spurs and Harden had the worst shot efficiency of his career and by Steven's standards, they couldn't handle the pressure cooker of the playoffs.


    Don't put words in my mouth. Howard lead Rafer Alston to the finals. Harden was the difference in the WCF the prior year.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago Most players play worse in the playoffs due to tougher opponents and better coaching/more time to prepare.
  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago

    Howard got 17-11 with 2 blocks per game not sure how that's cracking? 26-5-7 from harden, even Beverly is hard to compare to smiths performance which is partially on mchale and the basic lack of a legit starting pf .

    Howard was shut down by the spurs and Harden had the worst shot efficiency of his career and by Steven's standards, they couldn't handle the pressure cooker of the playoffs.

  • Cooper says 1 YEAR ago


    He was also a raw sophomore playing against a much better team. The tony parkers and Danny Greens would be non-existent if the world was ran by you steven. You can't expect everyone to be perfect. Also by your standers if we judge everyone by the playoffs like you then the only reasonable thing to do would be trade everyone on the roster except Parsons and asik because Harden, Howard, Lin, Beverley, and Smith all cracked in the last playoff season. Am I correct?

    Howard got 17-11 with 2 blocks per game not sure how that's cracking? 26-5-7 from harden, even Beverly is hard to compare to smiths performance which is partially on mchale and the basic lack of a legit starting pf .
  • Losthief says 1 YEAR ago

    smith didn't do bad cause of a lack of athleticism....it was the lack of skills/jumpshot that restricted his effectiveness, athleticism he has in spades, defensive awareness/spacing and offensive variety he does not.

  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago

    Regular season stats are accumulated with little pressure. Under the pressure cooker of the postseason, when the cream rises to the top, Greg Smith cracked, failed, flunked, etc... When watching the games against a decent top 10-PF and an above average defensive C, he was clearly out classed. No stats can make up for his lack of athletism against the best of the best. When the rotation shrinks in the playoffs, Greg Smith can't hack it.

    He was also a raw sophomore playing against a much better team. The tony parkers and Danny Greens would be non-existent if the world was ran by you steven. You can't expect everyone to be perfect. Also by your standers if we judge everyone by the playoffs like you then the only reasonable thing to do would be trade everyone on the roster except Parsons and asik because Harden, Howard, Lin, Beverley, and Smith all cracked in the last playoff season. Am I correct?

  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    He looked raw last year, no doubt about that. I'll have to see a lot of improvement this year, but I'm not ready to write him off just yet. I think he can still be a capable backup big.

  • Cooper says 1 YEAR ago Greg smith is a decent backup but was obviously overwhelmed in the playoffs and really shouldn't have been in the postion to have to play significant minutes in the playoffs.
  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago


    When someone performs well, you refuse to acknowledge it and when someone gives you the slightest reasons in the smallest of sample sizes, you crucify them on biased opinions. Why?


    Regular season stats are accumulated with little pressure. Under the pressure cooker of the postseason, when the cream rises to the top, Greg Smith cracked, failed, flunked, etc... When watching the games against a decent top 10-PF and an above average defensive C, he was clearly out classed. No stats can make up for his lack of athletism against the best of the best. When the rotation shrinks in the playoffs, Greg Smith can't hack it.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    Come on guys. Let's not gang up on Steven. He's entitled to his opinion.

  • Knickabokkaz says 1 YEAR ago

    When someone performs well, you refuse to acknowledge it and when someone gives you the slightest reasons in the smallest of sample sizes, you crucify them on biased opinions. Why?


    Crickets...
  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago


    Yea against the sorry teams against the eastern conference. Regular season stats can be padded against the likes of the Bobcats, Hornets, Cavs and the like. Once he played against decent competition on a regular basis like the playoffs, he was shown to be the weakest link on the team. During the deciding game his -17 in 7 minutes, was the difference between going to and winning game 7 and losing at home. OKC showed he is too small to battle at C, and to unathletic to play the 4.

    When someone performs well, you refuse to acknowledge it and when someone gives you the slightest reasons in the smallest of sample sizes, you crucify them on biased opinions. Why?
  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago

    Smith was actually one of the most efficient players in the league, but we love you steven like the rambling bum. You might not stop talking, you might not make any sense but you're a character and we love you for it. Now back to the topic.


    Yea against the sorry teams against the eastern conference. Regular season stats can be padded against the likes of the Bobcats, Hornets, Cavs and the like. Once he played against decent competition on a regular basis like the playoffs, he was shown to be the weakest link on the team. During the deciding game his -17 in 7 minutes, was the difference between going to and winning game 7 and losing at home. OKC showed he is too small to battle at C, and to unathletic to play the 4.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    While Lin is quick and fast, sometimes he slows down like most starters, whereas Beverley is super energetic all the time and people let that cloud their "eye test" into thinking Lin is slow and Bev is fast, irregardless of the veracity of that statement. That's why stats are important, IMO. There are so many variables that we don't think about when we make snap judgments about players that sometimes stats make us reevaluate our "scouting" standards, so to speak.

  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago


    Every one wants to pick one or the other but having both Beverly and Lin puts the Rockets in a perfect position. They can either be the small ball team with Beverly or they can be the slower pace type team with Lin running the show. With both of these guys playing at their best the Rockets are a very dangerous team.

    Good statement, but Lin is faster down court and a big part of their fast pace, fast break game. Beverley is faster laterally.
  • RocketMansinceStevieFrance says 1 YEAR ago

    Every one wants to pick one or the other but having both Beverly and Lin puts the Rockets in a perfect position. They can either be the small ball team with Beverly or they can be the slower pace type team with Lin running the show. With both of these guys playing at their best the Rockets are a very dangerous team.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    This obsession you have with Lin frankly scares me a little, Steven. You constantly bring up Lin when Lin isn't even mentioned. We were having a conversation about Mchale and you wanted to take a shot at Lin thus turning this board into a Lin debate. Please stop, Steven. It does nobody any good.

    You noticed that too?

  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago


    As long as he benches Smith and Lin, he will have a good year.

    Smith was actually one of the most efficient players in the league, but we love you steven like the rambling bum. You might not stop talking, you might not make any sense but you're a character and we love you for it. Now back to the topic.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    As long as he benches Smith and Lin, he will have a good year.

    This obsession you have with Lin frankly scares me a little, Steven. You constantly bring up Lin when Lin isn't even mentioned. We were having a conversation about Mchale and you wanted to take a shot at Lin thus turning this board into a Lin debate. Please stop, Steven. It does nobody any good.

  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago


    He did okay last year. We will see how he does with championship expectations.


    As long as he benches Smith and Lin, he will have a good year.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago He did okay last year. We will see how he does with championship expectations.
  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago

    Yeah. A little bit. Lol

    Mchale was actually a fairly good coach. He had a completely new roster filled with youngsters and unlike most coaches who make the players fit their style, he made a style to fit his players. He's a defense first coach, but he knew that wouldn't work but he had a bunch of youngsters so he ran a fast pace, fast offense game and got us into the playoffs.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago Yeah. A little bit. Lol
  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    But I don't think Mchale is that smart

    Are you trolling? Lol.

    McHale did it a lot the 2nd half of the season.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    Lin doesn't need to come off the bench to play with the second unit. Watch at how Spoelstra rotates Wade and Lebron.


    But I don't think Mchale is that smart
  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Lin doesn't need to come off the bench to play with the second unit. Watch at how Spoelstra rotates Wade and Lebron.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    Good point thejohnnygold.

    I actually think that because we don't have that explosive sixth man (Jack, Ginobili, Crawford, etc...) that it would benefit the team greatly for Lin to come off the bench but play in crucial moments as well. He can play backup PG/SG and then close out the game if the game's close or let Bev close it out if we're blowing the other team out.

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    Looks like I have missed all the fun stuff. :D

    Let's try to not resort to name-calling. That doesn't do anything to enhance any discussion.

    If someone posts an opinion that you don't like remember this: Your response is your responsibility. You choose how you react.

    If a post is indeed trolling then trust that the majority of us realize that as well. There is no need to point it out. There is no need to respond at all. Let their words speak for themselves. The silence will be the greatest indictment.

    As far as trolling goes...It's such a gray area and what is abhorrent to one is agreeable to another. I would say if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck....then it probably is; however, I'm not here to decipher every post as trolling or not. I leave that to you all to recognize if a post is worth responding to or to just let it go.

    A thoughtful and respectful statement will garner thoughtful and respectful responses. The opposite will generally hold true as well. Seeing what reactions we attract can be a mirror to ourselves.

    Remember, if we all thought, felt, and expressed ourselves the same this forum would be incredibly boring. It's not a problem to disagree, but let us all try to remember that Red94 prefers to keep a higher standard. I don't think I need to point out that all of this quibbling does not exactly measure up.

    One last thing--I am happy to have so many new members joining in the discussions! We do take the idea of keeping the respectfulness and content of these forums at a higher standard. While most all of us will slip from time to time due to our emotional connection with the subject matter let's all do our best to make this the premier Rockets discussion forum. We're hear to discuss and read about the Rockets--no more, no less.

    Getting back to the topic...I think it's great that we have two PG's who are capable of contributing, in different ways, to the greatness of our team. How they split the minutes is of no concern to me as long as the team benefits. I think McHale will find a way to get both of them on the court as much as possible and each should be better than last year--which is a great thought. One of them is going to run our second unit--which should be fairly strong--and that means last year's achilles heel will be a strength.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    This is rather unproductive.

    But entertaining.

  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago

    This is rather unproductive.

  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago

    Protect myself? From what? a ban? for anyone that reads my post, I try to express my opinions in a logical sensible manner. For me to say your basketball IQ has to be low is simply being honest. Sorry if you can't except it but that's your problem.

    Why don't you leave what you say the first time on the screen so that the admin's can read it? And Trolls are people who pop up out of the blue, wearing their other team's gear who only come on other teams sites to provoke an agrument. I have been reading Red94 since Rahat was the only writer. Stewie was a troll. I come on here everyday to have an honest discussion about a team I have loved since they were on HSE. I'm sorry if you can't engage into a cival conversation without calling people trolls and haters. I have used facts to base my opinions on. We can have honest debates and walk away disagreeing.

    I'm sorry for wanting my PG to be better then below average, for wanting someone who actually has a chance to be great. Overachievers are great as role players giving 10-15 minutes off the bench, and with Lin's contract he would be overpaid to do that. That is why the sooner he is shipped off the better for the Rockets.
  • Knickabokkaz says 1 YEAR ago


    Except he didn't take your advice. First he called me a "hater", then in order to protect his ass before the administrators saw edited his message to just say "Fine". Perfect example of a Linsantiac.


    Protect myself? From what? a ban? for anyone that reads my post, I try to express my opinions in a logical sensible manner. For me to say your basketball IQ has to be low is simply being honest. Sorry if you can't except it but that's your problem.
  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago

    Everyone just spread the love and get back on the topic please.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    Except he didn't take your advice. First he called me a "hater", then in order to protect his ass before the administrators saw edited his message to just say "Fine". Perfect example of a Linsantiac.

    "Hater" is just a bad term, even if you use it correctly. It has developed a negative connotation in society today and makes the person who uses the term sound immature and childish. I believe that Heat bandwagoners are to blame. But, it's not nice to call people "Linsantiacs", or is it? I've never heard that term before.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Ok. I wasn't singling anybody out. I was just saying that if you feel somebody is "trolling" you, it's best just to ignore them. I hope I don't get in trouble for that.

    Good point. Well played ;)

  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago


    Ok. I wasn't singling anybody out. I was just saying that if you feel somebody is "trolling" you, it's best just to ignore them. I hope I don't get in trouble for that.


    Except he didn't take your advice. First he called me a "hater", then in order to protect his ass before the administrators saw edited his message to just say "Fine". Perfect example of a Linsantiac.
  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    I think this is good advice, but be careful, FSS threatened me with a suspension for basically saying the same thing.

    Ok. I wasn't singling anybody out. I was just saying that if you feel somebody is "trolling" you, it's best just to ignore them. I hope I don't get in trouble for that.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I know it's hard sometimes, but it's better just to let it go. Trolls only win if you give them the reaction they so desperately crave.

    I think this is good advice, but be careful, FSS threatened me with a suspension for basically saying the same thing.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    Fine

    I know it's hard sometimes, but it's better just to let it go. Trolls only win if you give them the reaction they so desperately crave.

  • Knickabokkaz says 1 YEAR ago


    I agree. Instead of voicing his opinion about you out loud, he should just keep quiet. This board should be civil at all times.


    Fine
  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    I would like to thank you for admitting that you have lost the debate on Jeremy Lin. People only start the mudslinging and personal attacks once they have lost the debate. Just because I don't wear a Lin-17 jersey, has no relevance on my basketball IQ. It's shameful how when presented facts you have to personally attack my IQ.

    I agree. Instead of voicing his opinion about you out loud, he should just keep quiet. This board should be civil at all times.

  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago


    Your basketball IQ isn't very high is it Steven.


    I would like to thank you for admitting that you have lost the debate on Jeremy Lin. People only start the mudslinging and personal attacks once they have lost the debate. Just because I don't wear a Lin-17 jersey, has no relevance on my basketball IQ. It's shameful how when presented facts you have to personally attack my IQ.
  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago

    But I thought Canaan was the second coming of Magic Johnson......

    He's been reborn.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    But I thought Canaan was the second coming of Magic Johnson......

  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago

    I guess looks can be deceiving :/

    That's why no matter how much people want to trade lin, we can't because we have no one to replace him.

  • Knickabokkaz says 1 YEAR ago

    But he looks energetic, so he must be good.....

    Lol

    I guess looks can be deceiving :/
  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago But he looks energetic, so he must be good.....

    Lol
  • Knickabokkaz says 1 YEAR ago

    This isn't to degrade Beverley, I like him, I love his energy, but can we stop the "outstanding playoffs" rumor that he supposedly had?

    He had a decent OFFENSIVE series against a Backup PG in Reggie Jackson. DEFENSIVELY he was horrible against yet again, against a Backup PG in Reggie Jackson.

    These are the 5 games head to head, both as starting PG's:

    4qro.png

    mfov.png

  • Buckko says 1 YEAR ago

    Oh knee slapper.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    Your basketball IQ isn't very high is it Steven.


    Lol
  • Knickabokkaz says 1 YEAR ago Your basketball IQ isn't very high is it Steven.
  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago When he was starting in the postseason the Rockets won until Lin decided to come off the bench.
  • Knickabokkaz says 1 YEAR ago People aren't considering the facts of what it takes to be a starting Pg compared to an energy guy. Beverley plays pesky D and makes hustle plays such as a tremendous block shot. Looks great in highlights but other then that, he has plenty of deficiencies as well for a STARTING PG ROLE. When your a backup PG and you have the role of putting pressure on a ball handler, being a guy willing to take chances, hustling, gambling on plays.. All things Beverley does EXTREMELY WELL... BUT

    It's totally different from being a STARTING PG, which carries the RESPONSIBILTY of:
    Running the Team
    Staying out of foul trouble.
    Creating shots for your teammates and yourself.
    Being an extension of the Coach.
    Making sure the team is run at a certain pace.
    Emphasizing where teammates are suppose to be ON OFFENSE AND DEFENSE.
    Being a LEADER.
    Understanding defenses and how to exploit them.
    Getting your teammates back in transition defense and making sure they know their defensive assignments.

    Beverley no matter how many bright spots he's had, how many highlight plays he's had. He is not ready for ALL of those responsibilities.

    Lin has already done this, whether you hate him or not, he's already proven this in the 4 games Harden was out. During Linsanity when Melo, Amare were out and his starting lineup was Lin, Landry Fields, Billy Walker, Jared Jeffries, and Tyson Chandler. Not to mention they had the #1 Defense with that lineup in that stretch of games.

    I'll give Patrick Beverley a solid A for WHAT HIS ROLE IS FOR THIS TEAM, as a STARTING PG, it's a TOTALLY different game.
  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    2 things. His Grade should be an A....
    And key statement: "He is the best point guard on Houston’s current roster, and that’s nothing to be sad or disappointed about"

    agreed and welcome to the forum :rolleyes:

  • HoopsReportCard says 1 YEAR ago

    2 things. His Grade should be an A....
    And key statement: "He is the best point guard on Houston’s current roster, and that’s nothing to be sad or disappointed about"

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    the reason I love what bev bring to the table.......image this ........bev, harden, parsons, t-jones, howard. that's a really nice defensive lineup and you still can bring asik in for t-jones for more height. some think this lineup will be challenged when it comes to scoring I don't. however one thing that must happen before we can ever be considered championship contenders is we must learn how to stop the other team from scoring and this lineup might be our answer.

  • feelingsupersonic says 1 YEAR ago Come to think of it if Beverly is a starter with a rotation that includes Harden, Howard, Asik, Parsons, a three point specialist, another guard plus one of the three young power forwards then if Beverley averages 10 ppg, 6apg and 5 rpg in old fashion stats then the Rockets have to be happy with that. What he brings that can't be accounted for is that thing that Simmons calls Irrational Confidence Guy plus what he does energywise on the defensive end could really be part of the Rockets identity defensively.
  • feelingsupersonic says 1 YEAR ago

    Hard to discuss Beverley without discussing Lin. But onto Beverley, I'd say his ceiling is 15 points / 5 assists / 4 rebounds.That's with 33-36 minutes as a starter.

    Fair enough. Well I say if you can get that from Beverley with the core of Harden and Howard with Parsons and Asik as the secondary players the Rockets can trade Lin at some point. I agree with Kevin Pelton that Morey always has a couple cards he is ready to play. From ESPN's Future Power rankings:

    Houston also benefits from the front office's ability to find unheralded talent. The Rockets signed both Patrick Beverley and Greg Smith for the minimum and developed them into contributors, making Jeremy Lin and a pile of big men drafted in the first round (Terrence Jones, Donatas Motiejunas and Thomas Robinson) potentially available for trades. -Kevin Pelton
  • huitlacoche says 1 YEAR ago

    I believe his ceiling is a 20/8/4 guy on 50% shooting. I would call that an all-star. Not a superstar, but an all-star. That's best case scenario for me. Realistically I think he's a 17/7/3 guy on 45% shooting at his peak.

    20/8/4 on 50% shooting?

    delusional much?

  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    Hard to discuss Beverley without discussing Lin. But onto Beverley, I'd say his ceiling is 15 points / 5 assists / 4 rebounds.That's with 33-36 minutes as a starter.

  • feelingsupersonic says 1 YEAR ago Isn't this a Beverley thread?
  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    I believe his ceiling is a 20/8/4 guy on 50% shooting. I would call that an all-star. Not a superstar, but an all-star. That's best case scenario for me. Realistically I think he's a 17/7/3 guy on 45% shooting at his peak.

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    I agree with your point that either way we will be fine. It will be interesting to see how Lin turns out. Obviously, he isn't going to be a star in this league. He also won't be the worst PG either--somewhere in the middle is his destiny. It's just which part of that middle....? You say lower part...I say upper part. Either way, he seems to be a good guy and I wish him the best.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    At least he's persistent.

    GfW0P.png.gif

    like a steady stream of water wearing down a rock :lol:

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    At least he's persistent.

    GfW0P.png.gif

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    Agree. Without Harden we probably would not have made the playoffs.

    JG I think where we disagree is imo not every player who puts up decent looking stats is a good player to me. lin has decent stats, but giving his responsibilities and moneyto a more skilled player is a better option than waiting for and hoping he figures out the game. according to how much waiting will cost the team on lin, 20 mil (16.6 cap hit) is a lot to spend for a player who may or may not get better. as I said before if the rockets get howard we can hide lin in the rotation and make up for his lack of skill. I've even started to lean to the opinion that we might hold lin's contract until both he and parsons come due and use lin's money to keep parsons. either way the rockets can both survive with lin and without. I don't view him as a core piece on this team.

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    Agree. Without Harden we probably would not have made the playoffs.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    I do believe if we had not acquired harden lin's numbers would have been up across the board..............well all except the win category. :lol:

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    What if I said that if Harden had not shown up this year, Lin would have averaged 24 points, 9 assists, 4 rebounds and 2 steals per game? Sound crazy? It might be--there's too many factors to be sure...still, if you replace Lin's usage rate of 20 with Harden's 29 (roughly 50% increase) I think we can extrapolate fairly that his stats would all increase across the board.

    Here are Jeremy's stats from the 4 games Harden did not play in: (points, assists, rebounds, steals, and opponent)

    38 7 3 2 (SAS)
    14 7 2 2 (LAC)
    19 11 3 0 (ORL)
    15 3 0 0 (LAC)
    _________
    96 28 8 4 (total)
    _________
    24 7 2 1 (avg)

    That's a solid average (despite the small sample) when playing three of your four games against the Spurs and Clips. It probably means nothing, but I think there is a bit of credence to the notion that Harden and Lin side by side hinders Lin's game. I think most of us expect them to work this out over the Summer....we'll see. That 15 and 3 against the Clippers was awful :(

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    I think you're exaggerating the risks and playing down the reward lol

    We have all seen Lin's ceiling, and I'd say that's a pretty good reward for the very little risk.

    I disagree........we have different opinions of his ceiling

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I think you're exaggerating the risks and playing down the reward lol

    We have all seen Lin's ceiling, and I'd say that's a pretty good reward for the very little risk.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    RBF,

    Look at it this way, Lin's per 36 stats after the All-Star break were 17 points and 7 assists. What if he does that for an entire season? Don't you think we would get more in return for him if we trade him then rather than now?

    There's no need to rush. Think about it from a risk vs reward standpoint.

    hmmmm.......risk and reward.

    THE RISK= 1.watching his contract become an anvil around the rockets necks for the next 2 years. 2. risk that he will never become more than he is now or may actually decline in play. 3. risk that he might become a distraction as bev slowly eats away at his minutes. .............no the risk aren't that great. however let view the reward

    REWARD= 1.he may blossom into a decent PG(because anything above that is unrealistic)............not all that great for 20 milover the next 2 seasons. I know only 16.6 is on the cap, but the man will make 20 mil

    when building a championship team sometimes it become necessary to trim the fat. lin's contract is fat (IMO) I'm not saying he is useless as a player, just that based on his contract and production our money can be better spent. I'm not afraid lin will go somewhere else and blossom into a star. I don't believe he has that kind of ceiling. linsanity was a fluke. all of the reasons lin went undrafted have reared their ugly heads. the guy still is good enough to be in the league, but not among the elite. if the rockets decide to ride lin's contract out it won't be a disaster. if they build up other areas it's possible to cover lin up. however why should we need to cover up a player making 20 over the next 2 years? there is no way for you to explain to me that at this point his contract is a good one

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    RBF,

    Look at it this way, Lin's per 36 stats after the All-Star break were 17 points and 7 assists. What if he does that for an entire season? Don't you think we would get more in return for him if we trade him then rather than now?

    There's no need to rush. Think about it from a risk vs reward standpoint.

  • thenit says 1 YEAR ago

    Yea I agree, I actually think Lin will be easier to move in year 3 rather then year 2.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    @RBF

    "you should give more weight to the he's a rookie argument. some players are just late bloomers. they can still be useful, it just takes them longer and they need more development. bev is one of these type of players. that's why he needed to ply his trade in Russia. not every player will take off soaring right from the beginning."

    Shouldn't this apply somewhat to Lin? We have different opinions on his overall value and skills, and we know where we stand on this. I just don't think his contract is so bad that it hinders us at the moment, even if we keep Lin and he falters, he is a trade chip due to his off field cash potential and an expiring contract for a team if he doesn't develop as I hope he might.

    In regards of Knicks I don't think we can really make a trade with them since the luxury tax will be too big for them and that was the reason they let him go. Phoenix poses an interesting trade, but you are getting the same production with just slightly less cap hit. Dragic is a better fit than Lin with Harden but I have hard time believing that Houston or the Suns would do the proposed trade.

    I think we keep Lin and Bev they bring different skillset and I actually think they complement each other well, so Mchale can go with the hot hand or the game situation during the game. Or if Bev outplays Lin during the pre season, we can make a switch. Lin will still hold about the same tradevalue next summer as a expiring contract even if he falters, and there will be teams willing to take that contract just for the expiring and the extra money it will bring in for that season just to get the extra income whether he develops or not to take that chance.


    my earlier statement could apply to lin. however I doubt it. I just don't see the upside there.....to many fatal things to overcome in his game. I know we don't agree on him, but he may get marginally better.however I don't see much more improvement over and above what he is now. that's just how I feel about him

    as for the proposed trades..........basically I was just tossing out a few possibility to show lin is not impossible to move should the rockets elect to move him.

  • quatin says 1 YEAR ago

    It's too early to make a call on Beverly. He brings a lot of energy, but how long can he sustain it? There's so many high energy players that come in the draft every year and find that they can't sustain that level like they could in college.

    I would like to see him play more minutes, so we can see how he matches up against other guards and how other teams adjust for him. He doesn't have a lot of assists, but that could be due to him being new to the system and just starting to see more minutes. However, he will get into foul trouble with all the reaches and "happy hands" he does. We need a couple of solid PGs behind him.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    This isn't really saying much but some people here might appreciate any news they can get:

    Q: Is Sergio Llull going to come over?

    DM: It was great that Les Alexander gave us money to buy 2nd round pick a few years back to get him. Now the rules have changed so teams can't do that as much. He is #1 guard in Spain. Was MVP in one of the Euro cups recently. He is for sure an NBA ready guy. He won't come over this offseason but maybe the following one as his buyout gets lower. Now with Lin and Beverly it would be unlikely he'd play right now anyway. It's kind of admirable, he really wants to win a title in Europe and he was close this year. Before he comes over, he sort of wants to win big for Real Madrid's team because they brought him along this far in his career.

    --SOURCE

    I think we bring in Llull next off season so we won't need Beverley anymore.

  • thenit says 1 YEAR ago

    @RBF

    "you should give more weight to the he's a rookie argument. some players are just late bloomers. they can still be useful, it just takes them longer and they need more development. bev is one of these type of players. that's why he needed to ply his trade in Russia. not every player will take off soaring right from the beginning."

    Shouldn't this apply somewhat to Lin? We have different opinions on his overall value and skills, and we know where we stand on this. I just don't think his contract is so bad that it hinders us at the moment, even if we keep Lin and he falters, he is a trade chip due to his off field cash potential and an expiring contract for a team if he doesn't develop as I hope he might.

    In regards of Knicks I don't think we can really make a trade with them since the luxury tax will be too big for them and that was the reason they let him go. Phoenix poses an interesting trade, but you are getting the same production with just slightly less cap hit. Dragic is a better fit than Lin with Harden but I have hard time believing that Houston or the Suns would do the proposed trade.

    I think we keep Lin and Bev they bring different skillset and I actually think they complement each other well, so Mchale can go with the hot hand or the game situation during the game. Or if Bev outplays Lin during the pre season, we can make a switch. Lin will still hold about the same tradevalue next summer as a expiring contract even if he falters, and there will be teams willing to take that contract just for the expiring and the extra money it will bring in for that season just to get the extra income whether he develops or not to take that chance.


  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    These are interesting proposals--the Lakers option is the only one I think has any chance of materializing--it makes some sense. I don't think Milwaukee gives us Henson. I still can't imagine Phoenix making that trade. Statistically speaking, Lin and Dragic had nearly identical seasons with Dragic netting one extra assist per game and nearly 1 extra point per game (looking at per 36 numbers). I would agree that, as of now, Dragic would probably be the better fit next to Harden....Still, it's a really close call--one that makes me disinclined to give up T-Rob for what is almost an even swap at PG. I mean, if Dragic is so much better than Lin why would Phoenix let him go?

    phoenix would let him go because they don't have a dam thing to go with him :lol:by the time they are able to build something he may not be their best option by then. it would take them being proactive. I know they don't have a history of that, but just tossing the idea out there.

    in the last post I forgot to address NY...........the only thing I like they have is shumpert and I doubt they want to move him, but might be willing if we toss in t-rob in the deal

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    These are interesting proposals--the Lakers option is the only one I think has any chance of materializing--it makes some sense. I don't think Milwaukee gives us Henson. I still can't imagine Phoenix making that trade. Statistically speaking, Lin and Dragic had nearly identical seasons with Dragic netting one extra assist per game and nearly 1 extra point per game (looking at per 36 numbers). I would agree that, as of now, Dragic would probably be the better fit next to Harden....Still, it's a really close call--one that makes me disinclined to give up T-Rob for what is almost an even swap at PG. I mean, if Dragic is so much better than Lin why would Phoenix let him go?

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    I'm not so sure about that Phoenix trade proposal you got there....I'm sure the Knicks would take him in a trade, but what do they have that we want? Novak? They would want to dump salary in any trade. I imagine they would try something like Felton, Novak, and Q. Richardson. No thanks.

    I'm curious why you think Phoenix would trade Dragic and Marcus Morris (two players they sought out) for Lin and T-Rob...I can't see the logic there. I'm not sure why Houston would make that trade either...

    The Bucks are a possibility...they have some good pieces, but what would they give us for Lin? Not the one we would want (Larry Sanders)...Besides, they still have Ellis to play PG.

    I put question marks by the Lakers, Kings, and Magic because they have serviceable PG's and would only be looking for significant upgrades or cheap alternatives--I don't think Lin matches that criteria. I do think Lin would appeal to LA in regards to $$$ and global appeal.

    with phoenix we get a better PG. phoenix isn't going any where next year and they know it. t-rob can be the young prospect along with gortat and lin they can attempt to start building around. I really don't want mm back but just through him in to balance the deal. the trade works for both teams. unless of course you don't believe dragic is better than lin. we dump some salary to a team that can afford it and get us a better PG.....they get a young core to start building around.

    if we deal with the bucks it's going to be more salary dump for us morethan anything because I don't want Jennings or ellis. however we might be able to get Henson away form them along with some draft picks for future team building.

    the lakers are much more likely. if we move lin to them in a D-12 sign and trade. lin's salary removal finishes the path to howard money wise and gives the lakers someone nash can groom to take over once he leaves. it's not like the lakers have a lot of choice if howard elects to leave. at that point it's either lin or nothing.......I'm pretty sure they would take lin over nothing. besides d'tonie likes lin and would probably be pushing for his acquisition. this trade gives us D-12 and about 5 mil remaining in cap room to sign additional players. we could then be free to pursue Bledsoe for t-rob+ draft pick deal or could look at someone like reddick

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    you forget one thing.....last year he was a rookie to the nba. believing his pesky defense is not affecting the game simply is not giving the man his proper credit (IMO). bev plays outstanding defense....yes he does need to refine his game so that he commits less fouls, but he was a rookie. I expect he will be under better control this coming year. and yes I believe the rockets could get a late 2nd rounder for bev if they elected to move him. especially in a draft like this years.

    JG I agree. all of those teams dallas, Utah, lakers, kings and magic will be looking for PGs. however their are othersthey may view lin with value. for example the bucks if they are unable to match Jennings offer sheet. Detroit if calderon goes somewhere else is another one. how about this trade...lin and t-rob to phoenix for dragic and marcus morris?i'm sure the knicks would welcome him back if they could get him.................so it's not like there are no options should the rocketselect to move him.

    I'm not so sure about that Phoenix trade proposal you got there....I'm sure the Knicks would take him in a trade, but what do they have that we want? Novak? They would want to dump salary in any trade. I imagine they would try something like Felton, Novak, and Q. Richardson. No thanks.

    I'm curious why you think Phoenix would trade Dragic and Marcus Morris (two players they sought out) for Lin and T-Rob...I can't see the logic there. I'm not sure why Houston would make that trade either...

    The Bucks are a possibility...they have some good pieces, but what would they give us for Lin? Not the one we would want (Larry Sanders)...Besides, they still have Ellis to play PG.

    I put question marks by the Lakers, Kings, and Magic because they have serviceable PG's and would only be looking for significant upgrades or cheap alternatives--I don't think Lin matches that criteria. I do think Lin would appeal to LA in regards to $$$ and global appeal.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    Didn't forget - just don't give as much weigh to the "he's a rookie" argument. Of course it's a learning process, but most of these guys have been playing like competition since HS. I understand he was new to the league - but he had plenty of time to adjust in the first few weeks, let alone the past few months. Plus, it's not like we play the most difficult offense or defense in the world.

    I agree with 2016 - trade him after a little more time showcasing, and we could get a late 1st. Not yet, but almost there.

    you should give more weight to the he's a rookie argument. some players are just late bloomers. they can still be useful, it just takes them longer and they need more development. bev is one of these type of players. that's why he needed to ply his trade in Russia. not every player will take off soaring right from the beginning.

  • Freebird says 1 YEAR ago

    you forget one thing.....last year he was a rookie to the nba. believing his pesky defense is not affecting the game simply is not giving the man his proper credit (IMO). bev plays outstanding defense....yes he does need to refine his game so that he commits less fouls, but he was a rookie. I expect he will be under better control this coming year. and yes I believe the rockets could get a late 2nd rounder for bev if they elected to move him. especially in a draft like this years.

    JG I agree. all of those teams dallas, Utah, lakers, kings and magic will be looking for PGs. however their are othersthey may view lin with value. for example the bucks if they are unable to match Jennings offer sheet. Detroit if calderon goes somewhere else is another one. how about this trade...lin and t-rob to phoenix for dragic and marcus morris?i'm sure the knicks would welcome him back if they could get him.................so it's not like there are no options should the rocketselect to move him.

    Didn't forget - just don't give as much weigh to the "he's a rookie" argument. Of course it's a learning process, but most of these guys have been playing like competition since HS. I understand he was new to the league - but he had plenty of time to adjust in the first few weeks, let alone the past few months. Plus, it's not like we play the most difficult offense or defense in the world.

    I agree with 2016 - trade him after a little more time showcasing, and we could get a late 1st. Not yet, but almost there.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    ^Wow - that's quite ambitious.

    Bev has the motor thing going, but he still plays like a rookie - not enough offensive confidence, and over-eager to impress. His peskiness is not really good defense - it's just an annoyance. He takes more risks than he should, and his transition D was terrible - instead of getting back to defend, he always crashed for the offensive rebound. Not a terrible thing, but gutsy - you miss the board, they get a layup more often than not.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Bev. He translated his game quickly, and flat-out played better than Douglas. He deserved his minutes, and filled in adequately for Lin after the injury. He fouled a bit too often for my taste, but hopefully a year's seasoning will help with that.

    JG - not sure the Kings and Magic are looking for PGs, what with Isaiah and Nelson, respectively. Agree with the rest, though.

    you forget one thing.....last year he was a rookie to the nba. believing his pesky defense is not affecting the game simply is not giving the man his proper credit (IMO). bev plays outstanding defense....yes he does need to refine his game so that he commits less fouls, but he was a rookie. I expect he will be under better control this coming year. and yes I believe the rockets could get a late 2nd rounder for bev if they elected to move him. especially in a draft like this years.

    JG I agree. all of those teams dallas, Utah, lakers, kings and magic will be looking for PGs. however their are othersthey may view lin with value. for example the bucks if they are unable to match Jennings offer sheet. Detroit if calderon goes somewhere else is another one. how about this trade...lin and t-rob to phoenix for dragic and marcus morris?i'm sure the knicks would welcome him back if they could get him.................so it's not like there are no options should the rocketselect to move him.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I mean before his contract year ends, which means Bev still has another year to impress other GM's which I think he will. I do agree with your current assessment though.

  • Freebird says 1 YEAR ago

    ^Wow - that's quite ambitious.

    Bev has the motor thing going, but he still plays like a rookie - not enough offensive confidence, and over-eager to impress. His peskiness is not really good defense - it's just an annoyance. He takes more risks than he should, and his transition D was terrible - instead of getting back to defend, he always crashed for the offensive rebound. Not a terrible thing, but gutsy - you miss the board, they get a layup more often than not.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Bev. He translated his game quickly, and flat-out played better than Douglas. He deserved his minutes, and filled in adequately for Lin after the injury. He fouled a bit too often for my taste, but hopefully a year's seasoning will help with that.

    JG - not sure the Kings and Magic are looking for PGs, what with Isaiah and Nelson, respectively. Agree with the rest, though.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I think he could get a 1st round pick for Bev.

    edit: I mean before his contract year ends, which means Bev still has another year to impress other GM's which I think he will.

  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    We're forgetting the Demand side of this equation. It must be considered when assessing Lin's (or Bev's) value. Currently, there are not very many teams looking for starting PG's. I think I can list them off the top of my head: Lakers (?), Mavs, Jazz, Kings (?), Magic (?)....that's about it. Everyone else has an established PG or a young, high draft pick.

    Lin's value in this type of market is going to be relatively low after factoring in his performance vs. salary. If we are looking at this economically it doesn't make any sense to move Lin unless one of the above teams (that would value him higher) is interested. From a basketball perspective, I think it is apparent he is still developing so his value will increase over time (my opinion, of course).

    Regarding Bev, demand for a pesky, defensive PG that makes few mistakes, has leadership qualities and is happy to come off the bench while being paid less than $1M should be relatively high. If Morey did pull the trigger, I think we would get a decent haul for him. From the basketball perspective, I think this indicates we should keep him as having two solid PG's is always a good thing--just look at the injury list from this year.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    Your yourself said we might only get a 2nd round pick in return for him. How much lower can it get? A 3rd round pick? I'll take that chance :P

    :lol:I agree it is low, but any lower and we won't be able to get a big mac and fries or even a happy meal :lol:in which case we will be forced to ride it out for the next 2 years. that's something I wouldn't be willing to do if I was in morey's shoes.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Your yourself said we might only get a 2nd round pick in return for him. How much lower can it get? A 3rd round pick? I'll take that chance :P

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    That doesn't make any sense if you're trying to follow my logic. Selling Lin now would be selling low...

    if his value is low as you put it. then you accept the fact he is average to below average? or his value would be high huh? all the more reason he should be moved now so it doesn't drop any lower

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    That doesn't make any sense if you're trying to follow my logic. Selling Lin now would be selling low...

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    McHale isn't the GM, Morey is, and Morey traded players Adelman liked so I don't think he will change his tune for McHale. The only person who can stop Morey is Leslie Alexander.

    I'm not saying Bev will get traded, all I'm saying is that Morey likes to buy low and sell high (Aaron Brooks and Kyle Lowry are the two who first come to mind) so I'm not crossing off the possibility.

    then also don't take for granted lin is safe either

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    McHale isn't the GM, Morey is, and Morey traded players Adelman liked so I don't think he will change his tune for McHale. The only person who can stop Morey is Leslie Alexander.

    I'm not saying Bev will get traded, all I'm saying is that Morey likes to buy low and sell high (Aaron Brooks and Kyle Lowry are the two who first come to mind) so I'm not crossing off the possibility.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    I think the whole league is really noticing Beverley, I won't be surprised if he gets traded before the last year of his contract like Aaron Brooks did if Morey thinks he can get back more than he's worth.

    I doubt bev is going anywhere. more like lin. McHale clearly favors bev over lin

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I think the whole league is really noticing Beverley, I won't be surprised if he gets traded before the last year of his contract like Aaron Brooks did if Morey thinks he can get back more than he's worth.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    Bev is under contract through the 2014-15 season, just like Lin. It is absolutely fair to compare the bang you get for the buck. Similar impact, similar age (and thus similar upside), both under contract for the same amount of time, yet one guy costs 10 times more than the other.

    totally agree. lin is overpaid for the production he provides. bev is the better player long term to me. however when you take the contracts into consideration.....bev is a facial slam dunk :lol:

  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago Lin and Bev do not have similar impact because they have dissimilar games. They have two different skills sets and bring different things to the table.

    Bev is a busy-body both offensively and defensively; good at both, great at neither. He's more of a small combo guard. He doesn't necessarily look to create for others and often seeks his own offense first. Case in point: His last two games vs OKC, he had 22 shots and 1 assist. One assist playing nearly 75 minutes in that Rockets offense as a guard is hard to do.
  • huitlacoche says 1 YEAR ago

    Also, Bev is not on a rookie scale contract since he was never a first round pick. He was signed here as a free agent. The Rockets had the choice of giving him anything from an unguaranteed one year minimum all the way to a guaranteed maximum, or anything in between.

  • huitlacoche says 1 YEAR ago

    Bev is under contract through the 2014-15 season, just like Lin. It is absolutely fair to compare the bang you get for the buck. Similar impact, similar age (and thus similar upside), both under contract for the same amount of time, yet one guy costs 10 times more than the other.

  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Well you also have to consider that Bev is still on his rookie contract so comparing contracts is unfair. I bet Bev will get a similar contract to Lin's when it's time to resign him. Out of the 2 pg's I prefer Lin because of the upside, but hopefully Lin doesn't turn out to be injury prone otherwise I will have to eat my words.

  • huitlacoche says 1 YEAR ago

    Agree that Bev and Lin have similar impact. Both are about the same age so both have time to improve. I think both of them are best suited as backups on a contending team.

    But then when you consider that Lin's cap hit next season will be 10 times bigger than Bev's...rut roh.

  • Cooper says 1 YEAR ago When Bradley started after the rondo injury he was generally terrible especially on offense but he let that affect his defense as well.
  • thejohnnygold says 1 YEAR ago

    Bradley is a PG. He is one of many NBA talents that have used the Univ. of Texas basketball program as a springboard to the NBA while contributing next to nothing while they were here at UT. I have sworn never to root for any of these players during their NBA careers and will be sure to hurl at least one expletive at them any time I see them playing. Cory Joseph in San Antonio, Daniel Gibson, & Tristan Thompson also are on this list. They exploited UT. At least Durant and Aldridge played like NBA talents while they were here. Sorry, players like them anger me. Myck Kabongo is next up. Another player that was supposed to be amazing, did nothing, will still get drafted and go on to play in the NBA. Grrrrrrrrr. :angry:

  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago LeBron is a PG. he runs the team.
  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    Call him whatever you want but he defends the 1 more than another other position. When you got guys like Lebron who's practically playing 5 positions while he's on the floor in terms of how he plays the game, position labels become pretty pointless.

  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago Bradley is not a PG. He can't dribble let alone run an offense.
  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I think there are only 2 ELITE defenders at the pg position, and by elite I mean they could probably be in the DPoY conversation one day if they're starters on a top defensive team. Those two PG defenders are Avery Bradley and Eric Bledsoe, and alot of that has to do with their size and ability guard multiple positions on switches.

    I think Westbrook has that size, quickness, and athlecism too but he doesn't have the defensive focus those guys have yet. He has that defensive potential though and I'm guessing that potential is the reason why Presti chose Westbrook over Harden.

    If Beverley was just a little bit bigger I would say he has that potential too. Call me crazy but I think Lin has even more defensive potential than Beverley does because of his size. I'm not saying Lin is a better defender than Beverley yet, but if I had to choose Beverley or Lin to switch onto a SG or SF I would choose Lin. I bet we will see Lin play minutes at the 2 next season whenever Harden rests or we go small with Harden at the 3.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago Avery Bradley is an ELITE defender as a PG
  • 2016Champions says 1 YEAR ago

    I think Beverley's defense is very pleasing to the eye, he's so tenacious, but I don't see him stopping anyone or creating a ton of turnovers. Overall his defense is probably just above average to good, but not great.

  • thenit says 1 YEAR ago

    We all have biases in our life, whether we want to admit it or not.

    I agree that steals are deceptive. Westbrook had 15 points in the first half and Bev drew 2 fouls in the first 3 minutes. After that Lin took a charge and drew a foul on Westbrook and he sat a lot on the first Q. But in the 2nd Q he scored I believe 11 points on Bev.

    Don't get me wrong Bev did a decent job and its hard to guard Westbrook.

    However you are right though, I haven't really considered which PG's are elite defenders, because there aren't really any but a boat load of great offensive PG's. So let me rephrase it that until proven Bev can't be regarded as an elite stopper until he does it against regular starters, but he is on an awful good start and looks to have a potential to be great in that department. ATM he is just very good :)

  • Alituro says 1 YEAR ago

    Also I may add that I'm a little biased towards Bev, because my Dad is Arkansas alumni and I was weened on Joe Kleine, Alvin Robertson and Darrell Walker. Lifelong Razorback fan here, so pardon my bias.

  • Alituro says 1 YEAR ago

    I agree that he is Very Good Defensively, but its hard to say with a straight face that he might be one of the best points on that aspect of the game. I think what he meant by that comment is that he never really had to guard an elite guard for extended period of time or consecutive games coming of the bench and during the playoffs Westbrook had his number until he got hurt. He is very good but we are kind of overrating him ATM IMO.

    im

    I agree on your previous post that he is a better fit with Harden and can also mask some of Harden D deficiences. I gave him an A- so im not underrating him either.

    I see your point with your first statement, but standing back and looking at mine, which PGs in the league would one call an "elite defender"? The nature of the position isinherently offensive, and the elite players at that position are considered so because of PPG and APG, mostly with steals as the only defensive stat to really gauge them by, which is a false stat because it is indicative of gambles rather than playing good D. I don't even think Westbrook "had his number", you could clearly tell that Russ was bothered by Bev's defense before the injury. So, who are the best defensive PGs in the league? Because I honestly can't answer that.

  • thenit says 1 YEAR ago

    The Westbrook injury has absolutely NOTHING to do with anybody praising Bev's defense. His impact on the games was stated pretty clearly in the post, and passes eye tests.

    I agree that he is Very Good Defensively, but its hard to say with a straight face that he might be one of the best points on that aspect of the game. I think what he meant by that comment is that he never really had to guard an elite guard for extended period of time or consecutive games coming of the bench and during the playoffs Westbrook had his number until he got hurt. He is very good but we are kind of overrating him ATM IMO.

    im

    I agree on your previous post that he is a better fit with Harden and can also mask some of Harden D deficiences. I gave him an A- so im not underrating him either.

  • Richards says 1 YEAR ago

    Grading was wrong. Bev was given same grade as Asik. That is B+.

    Bev is a good spark off the bench with good defensive skill.

    So far, he was inconsistent, commit too many unnecessary fouls and that could be a bad spell if he starts or plays more minutes.

    In last game against OKC, his total assist is zero. I like him a lot and he will definitely improve.

    But again, giving him same grade as Asik ain't right.

  • Alituro says 1 YEAR ago

    I like Beverley, I think his defense is overrated at the moment due to the Westbrook injury, but I will give him aB+ as well.

    Good hustle guy

    The Westbrook injury has absolutely NOTHING to do with anybody praising Bev's defense. His impact on the games was stated pretty clearly in the post, and passes eye tests.

  • dream7 says 1 YEAR ago

    I like Beverley, I think his defense is overrated at the moment due to the Westbrook injury, but I will give him aB+ as well.

    Good hustle guy

  • Alituro says 1 YEAR ago

    Good post. I'd probably give him an A-, as I value his terrific defense more than I can criticize his mistakes on offense, sort of like the opposite of Harden. I think the assessment that he's the best PG on our roster is correct. That is not saying he's a better player than Lin, but fits his role better as Lin is at his best in a SG type role. At the beginning of the season my biggest concern on this team was that our only true point was Douglas, and that's not taking anyone very far. Watching Bev come on the floor that first time and play the way he did with his tenacious D (and perfect shooting) was a breath of fresh air. I agree he has some work to do particularly on his decision making on offense, but for someone who joined the team mid season he did as well or better than expected. I bump him up to a A- mainly because you can point to more than a handful of games this season where his defensive heroics and energy late in games were the difference between a W and a L. Even if he is offensively challenged, he may be the best if not one of the best defensive points in the league and can bring even the best guards down to his offensive level with his D. He is a game changing presence that I hope we keep around for a while.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    Based on Beverly's performance in playoffs, I think B+ is enough. His energetic and fearlessness is a plus. But I found he was overaggressive too much to get unnecessary fouls and mistakes. And based on his performance on regular season, his grade is C. He played 42 games with almost 20 minutes each game but only got 5 points. That's terrible. He was not consistent in regular season too. One game could be good, other games no score at all. Playoff is important but it doesn't mean he can maitain that in the whole season. I think next season Mchale can put Lin and him to start together. They played well together. Beverly is not a good general floor and didn't make the team better in the whole season. He needs to improve a lot too. And also harden should not be the PG.

    welcome to the forum. :rolleyes:is your picture of an egg? you gonna hatch out later maybe? :lol:just kidding around. now to the point you were pretty harsh on bev. you have a right to your opinion, but I saw a better player than you did base on your comment. you think lin and bev can start together? I don't agree with that at all. what are you going to do with harden?.....parsons?

  • rocketsfan says 1 YEAR ago Based on Beverly's performance in playoffs, I think B+ is enough. His energetic and fearlessness is a plus. But I found he was overaggressive too much to get unnecessary fouls and mistakes. And based on his performance on regular season, his grade is C. He played 42 games with almost 20 minutes each game but only got 5 points. That's terrible. He was not consistent in regular season too. One game could be good, other games no score at all. Playoff is important but it doesn't mean he can maitain that in the whole season. I think next season Mchale can put Lin and him to start together. They played well together. Beverly is not a good general floor and didn't make the team better in the whole season. He needs to improve a lot too. And also harden should not be the PG.
  • Steven says 1 YEAR ago Best PG on the team. Should start. Solid A.
  • manmythlegend says 1 YEAR ago

    B+

    Solid, unexpected production from a mid-season pickup. The description in the original post of "He’s a role player who maximizes his production within Houston’s demands" is spot on:His skill-set is a better fit with the current system and roster in Houston.

    Should he start next season, it will be interesting to see if he can develop into more of a playmaker via the assist, especially if upgrades are made at PF/C. He recorded one assist total in Games 5 and 6 against OKC while taking 22 shots in 72 combined minutes of play.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    That being said, based on what I expected him to do when he first got here, I'd give him an A.

  • timetodienow1234567 says 1 YEAR ago

    Maybe, it's just me, but I don't see a point guard when I see Beverley play. I see a less talented version of Avery Bradley. Sure, he can shoot that 3 pointer, but he's not good enough to be a starting point guard in the league. Just with my eye test, I don't see someone with good court vision. But, maybe that's fine if Harden's going to be our point guard. I agree he's a pretty decent fit for our team since Harden is our point guard a good chunk of the time, but I don't see starter potential.

  • rockets best fan says 1 YEAR ago

    totally agree. I also believe he is the best PG we have at the moment. very few PG's play pesky defense like him. you know your playing defense when you are starting to irritate the apposing player. I have seem several point guards become irritated with bev guarding them. my grade for the year A- ........based on what was expected of him anything less is unfair IMO

  • ale11 says 1 YEAR ago

    Awesome finding by Morey. Beverley represents the "never quit" philosophy. B+ seems accurate to me (as always, considering many factors like his team-friendly contract).

  • thenit says 1 YEAR ago

    Also I would give him an A-

  • thenit says 1 YEAR ago

    Great post.

    I agree with the grade since he "earned" his PT with his work and effort. However I wouldn't agree with the statement that he is the best PG in our roster. I think its more like to be determined. Its realistic to believe he might be superior and a better fit than Lin, but until the sample size and playing against starters regularly, it will be hard to say. I would say ATM they are 1A and 1B with different skillset that will almost depend on more matchup to succeed.

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