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@  Mario Peña : (11 October 2016 - 01:41 PM) FANTASY BASKETBALL NOTICE: The league is now full. Thanks to everyone who joined good luck and be on the look out for an invitation email from Blake.
@  thejohnnygold : (06 October 2016 - 10:35 PM) FANTASY BASKETBALL NOTICE: anyone who wants to join the Red94 League please visit the Fantasy Basketball section and let us know ASAP. Thanks!
@  slick shoes : (05 October 2016 - 12:22 PM) Just nice to see some semblance of an offensive scheme. Also seems like the players are actually having fun again.
@  Jatman20 : (05 October 2016 - 01:58 AM) Looks like Brewer has worked on his 3-point shooting. Giving credit where credit is due.
@  bboley24 : (02 October 2016 - 03:48 AM) What can I say? Don't need no stiiiiiinking stats.
@  DenverRocket : (26 September 2016 - 06:29 PM) Looks like bboley was correct all the way back on May 26th: http://www.espn.com/...houston-rockets
@  slick shoes : (26 September 2016 - 06:03 PM) Remember when everyone was elated that Chris Bosh was on the verge of signing without Houston? Dodged a bullet on that one.
@  thejohnnygold : (23 September 2016 - 03:02 PM) @Slick Shoes - I don't think so....I may have had him bundled in a trade scenario or two back when Phoenix had ALL the PG's.
@  slick shoes : (22 September 2016 - 08:53 PM) I'm liking the trade with Beasley for Tyler Ennis. JG, weren't you advocating drafting him a year or two ago?
@  thejohnnygold : (17 September 2016 - 03:38 PM) I think they will eventually settle on a good deal, but it will likely have early team options to protect against his chronic injury problems.
@  slick shoes : (16 September 2016 - 02:47 PM) If no one else is making any offers, why would we exceed the minimum? Is it that he/his agent think his value is higher than the market dictates?
@  thejohnnygold : (16 September 2016 - 01:08 PM) Yup. The last sentence of that article says it all. "All deals get done in the 11th hour".
@  DenverRocket : (15 September 2016 - 06:16 PM) The latest on D-Mo http://www.espn.com/...rockets-lagging
@  slick shoes : (29 August 2016 - 11:42 AM) At some point they've got to start trading SOME of these picks for veteran players...
@  thejohnnygold : (26 August 2016 - 10:03 PM) Call me crazy, but I'd rather have Kendall Marshall than 2 2nd rounders.
@  slick shoes : (26 August 2016 - 08:30 PM) the 76's trade for another center? im assuming they were really after the two 2nd rounders...
@  thejohnnygold : (07 August 2016 - 07:16 PM) Nope, but there is some raw talent to work with there. He is years away...
@  majik19 : (06 August 2016 - 11:53 PM) well it doesn't look like Zhou Qi is NBA-ready
@  thejohnnygold : (25 July 2016 - 04:26 PM) I think I am going to like Bobby Brown...that is within the confines of our current strategy which is score, score, SCORE!
@  slick shoes : (22 July 2016 - 08:02 PM) The "super team" Knicks? lol

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Why not James Harden as the point guard?


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#1 Red94

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    Posted 05 April 2016 - 12:58 AM

    New post: Why not James Harden as the point guard?
    By: Rahat Huq

    The Rockets have featured lineups with James Harden as the point guard, in spurts, but I, and others, have scoffed at the suggestion of making a full-time positional change.  In a recent outing, with K.J. McDaniels covering the other team's point man, and the Rockets surging with Harden at the '1', I began to wonder, inquiring on Twitter, "why not?"

     

    The two most obvious points against are that a) Harden would be completely incapable of guarding the other team's point guard and b) having to bring the ball up would tire him out.  The obvious rebuttal to point 'a', as exhibited when Harden has played the spot situationally, is to have Ariza (or his successor) guard the point guard with Harden guarding the lesser of the two wings.  The rebuttal to point 'b', however, is particularly significant.

     

    Heading into an offseason in which the team most likely will be completely blown up, we've learned a lot this year, with relevance as to how this team should be shaped in its next iteration.  Based on his comments (i.e. "that he wanted Morey to get him help, to get him a point guard"), and based on the results of last season, the natural conclusion was that the team needed to acquire a primary ball-handler to assume playmaking duties, reducing the load on Harden in moving him off the ball.  He'd become more efficient, etc., etc.  A Ty Lawson disaster later, it became obvious that Harden cannot co-exist with another ball dominant guard.  One might argue that Lawson is flawed data due to his own shortcomings this season, but I'd counter that more than just the results, the observed interpersonal dynamics are significantly instructive.  Lawson wasn't just bad - he'd almost never even get the ball when paired with Harden, essentially serving as a glorified spot-up shooter, the same way Jeremy Lin, another attacking guard (who has done well this season when playing his natural role), did during his time with the team.

     

    Upon Lawson's departure, the prevailing assumption became, or has become, that the ideal point guard would be someone who could bring the ball up, hit open 3's, and defend at a high level.  The obvious dilemma presented is that not many players of this description exist.  Patrick Beverley is knocking down 3's at a much improved clip, but despite his reputation, he's just simply not a good defender anymore.

     

    So the question becomes, why does this ideal counterpart need to bring the ball up?  You're essentially limiting an already limited pool, just to have a player dribble the ball up past midcourt and hand the ball off to Harden to initiate the attack.  And as I noted the other day (strangely, to the indignation of some followers), unlike Kobe, Jordan, and McGrady, his superstar shooting guard predecessors, Harden seems to want to bring the ball up the court himself a significant amount of the time.  That observation isn't a knock on Harden - it's a realization in assessing his qualities.  If Harden himself wants to bring the ball up, doesn't that work to dispel the initial assumption that a roster must be constructed to relieve him of such an obligation?

     

    Now of course there is the rebuttal that there is a great distinction between a player bringing the ball up a majority of the time, and having to bring it up all of the time.  But I'd argue, if James Harden wants to win big, and wants the team to surround him with the pieces to do it, he's going to have to make some kind of sacrifice.  He either allows the team to get a real point guard, and allows the real point guard to be an actual point guard, in contrast to the Ty Lawson fiasco, or he makes the physical sacrifice required in expending the energy to play the position himself.  Otherwise, we are left with the alternative we've seen during Harden's entire tenure here, with misplaced fits or journeymen/over-the-hill role players filling the position, leading to an overall talent deficit.

     

    If you played an actual shooting guard next to Harden, someone who actually shot spot-up 3's in his natural role, you could unlock the potential of this offense.  And while those players don't grow on trees either, the aforementioned positional change would at least expand the field of potential Harden counterparts, allowing for the possibility.  One reader recently suggested pursuing Bradley Beal with a max offer.  While its almost unfathomable that Washington would let Beal walk, a Harden-Beal-McDaniels perimeter trio is an intriguing example of the dynamics I've sought to describe.  Understand, I'm not advocating making Harden a point guard.  But with so few plausible options, I'm open to entertaining the discussion.


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    #2 Jatman20

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      Posted 05 April 2016 - 01:54 AM

      Towards the end of Harden's first season I mentioned playing a shooting guard next to him (Harden) or a guy with a shooting guard mentality in a point guards body. I suggested Jason Terry or Marcus Thornton when they were still with the Nets. A 30 y/o Jet would have been a perfect fit next to Harden.
      I don't believe Thornton was doing a bad job. His defense is suspect; but can/could catch fire in the playoffs still.....much like his final days with the Kings. I suggested Anthony Morrow at that time. The Thunder picked him up later. Glad Morey passed on Morrow, because his defense is more suspect than Thornton's. I can't remember who else I mentioned ; but I have asked for tall point guards for a while.

      Beverley has been in my dog house for all last season and most of this one. I am a strong believer that Beverley is highly over-rated defensively as a point guard. In searching for a replacement I found out that few point guards play defense in the NBA. The ones that do play defense aren't going anywhere. The Lawson experiment showed me you just can't put any player at the point. The point guard has got to play well enough defense to help mask Harden's defense....or lack there of at times. Most recently I wanted the Rockets to some how snag Avery Bradley from the Celtics at the trading deadline. No luck there. Bradley's defense on Curry helped Boston beat the Warriors in Oakland recently.

      I remember the days during Lin's first year when he averaged 6.1 assists per game and people were excited in the hope that Lin could develop into a great point guard in the NBA. People tend to overlook Harden's achievements in that department. Most point guards in the NBA have played the position all their lives. Harden has only been playing the point in this manner since coming to Houston. He can get better. Add a Durant, Horford, Beal with Ariza, Beasley, Bev, Capela, D-Mo, Harrell, ?KJ?......Harden could average 9+ asts a game. PnR or PnPop all over the place.

      *side note: Sergio Llull plays that role while playing for Real Madrid. Rudy Fernandez tends to be the main ball handler......if you look at usage and mins of both players.

      Edited by Jatman20, 05 April 2016 - 01:59 AM.

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      #3 Jatman20

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        Posted 05 April 2016 - 02:18 AM

        Looked up Rudy just now. His usage is down to 17.....was 31 a few months ago.
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        #4 majik19

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          Posted 05 April 2016 - 02:38 AM

          Sergio Llull may be a great fit if he'd ever come over. 

           

          Bradley Beal is a nice pipe dream, except he's never healthy and his defense never came along.

           

          What about Evan Turner as a low cost option? Aaron Afflalo (little old, but may fit). Courtney Lee for a reunion? 

           

          I actually think Mike Conley would be a pretty good fit, but will cost too much.

           

          Or maybe go a little bigger with a Kent Bazemore or Allen Crabbe?

           

          Of course, none of these guys are superstars, but that may work as second guards. Or hell, maybe KJ will develop some offensive acumen in the offseason. Morey saw something in him to give him 4 mil/yr. 


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          #5 Cooper

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            Posted 05 April 2016 - 04:00 AM

            Id really like Bazemore. Barnes intrigues me but he'd surely be a max guy albeit a fairly low max since he's coming off a rookie deal. We have a decent amount to spend just depends on if they want to spend big on a Guard or C/Pf or spread it out more.


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            #6 thejohnnygold

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            Posted 05 April 2016 - 03:35 PM

            I feel like this is already the case.  James Harden is the point guard of this team.  The point guard's duty is to run the offense, not be a courier delivering the ball from one end of the floor to the other.

             

            Before I begin, I will agree that Harden can improve on these things...However:lol: I am very concerned about his PG abilities.  His turnover rate is very high.  I think his passing accuracy and precision are lower than needed.  I think that because he is a shoot-first player a lot of guys start looking for rebounds/getting into position/etc. and then he throws a pass that no one ever receives (turnovers!).  He forces things.  Doesn't seem to understand how to cultivate team morale.  Oh, and he's too tired to do that and play defense.

             

            (I'd love to hear a conversation between Harden and Chris Paul with Harden leading off with that, "can't play defense because I work too hard on offense" stuff.  My guess is Paul would stare blankly at James, sneer a little in disgust, and then walk away shaking his head.  In his mind, Chris would be thinking, "Well then, either pass the ball or get in better shape...all you're doing is making excuses...and worse yet, the coaches and your teammates are letting you get away with it.  Don't you remember when you came into this league and I told you about hard work?  Obviously, you don't.....)

             

            I'd argue we are better off running 10 straight Dwight post-ups on offense and playing 5-5 on defense than 10 straight Harden iso's and then 4-5 on defense.  (Better yet, insert D-Mo in place of Dwight.)

             

            This isn't all James' fault.  The entire team--coaches, players, trainers...everyone.

             

            Now, as for finding a solid running mate next to him...I like Beverley.  Yes, his defensive rep is over-stated, but he hustles 100% of the time and his rebounding alone is worth leaving him out there.  It's not the volume....it's the timing.  How many times does he get a crucial rebound in crunch time?  I don't know, but it seems like a lot.

             

            Beal's shins and high price tag will wind up being a bad deal.  Ask New Orleans if they got their money's worth from Eric Gordon.  I think we can shore up the SF position (Barnes!) and either continue running with Beverley, or pick up a Dellavedova/Chalmers/Nelson type.

             

            Heck, throw KJ on the PG.  He's quick enough.  McDaniels, Harden, Barnes, Motie, and Capela sounds like fun to me.  For small ball, just remove one of the bigs, plug in Beverley at point and slide everyone up one.   :)


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            #7 Rahat Huq

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              Posted 05 April 2016 - 10:45 PM

              Beal's shins and high price tag will wind up being a bad deal.  Ask New Orleans if they got their money's worth from Eric Gordon.  I think we can shore up the SF position (Barnes!) and either continue running with Beverley, or pick up a Dellavedova/Chalmers/Nelson type.

               

              JG: I thought you were the reader I was citing regarding Beal!  

               

              Majik: Everyone brings up Mike Conley as a supposed fit, but why would the same thing not happen for him?  


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              #8 clydesmoustache

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                Posted 06 April 2016 - 05:51 AM

                JG: I thought you were the reader I was citing regarding Beal!

                Majik: Everyone brings up Mike Conley as a supposed fit, but why would the same thing not happen for him?


                Also Conley isn't a great shooter from 3. We need someone that will be above average from there.
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                #9 slick shoes

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                Posted 06 April 2016 - 12:24 PM

                Conley is also being held together by duct tape and chewing gum. 


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                when you win two games in a row that's called a winning streak.

                trickin' six digits on kicks and still holdin'.

                #10 thejohnnygold

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                Posted 06 April 2016 - 02:04 PM

                JG: I thought you were the reader I was citing regarding Beal!  

                 

                Majik: Everyone brings up Mike Conley as a supposed fit, but why would the same thing not happen for him?  

                 

                It could have been....I go back and forth on him.  He is an elite shooter when healthy and picturing him next to Harden is easy to do.  The reality is that, more often than not, the only time we'd see him next to Harden is on the bench. :lol:  He is going to miss 20-30 games per season.  On top of that, I don't think he can give us starters minutes anymore...and he's only 22!  Given the nature of the injuries, I think it will only get worse.  For max money...that's a bad deal.

                 

                These days, I'm all aboard the Harrison Barnes train.

                 

                Of course, this is all moot knowing that Morey is going to roll out the red carpet for Durant this Summer.  Maybe it will happen....every year we talk ourselves into why player X will want to come here.  This Summer, it will be Harden and Beasley's friendship with KD, his ties to UT, and whatever coach we hire that will (allegedly) lure him to us.


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                #11 majik19

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                  Posted 06 April 2016 - 05:00 PM

                  JG: I thought you were the reader I was citing regarding Beal!  

                   

                  Majik: Everyone brings up Mike Conley as a supposed fit, but why would the same thing not happen for him?  

                   

                  It's certainly possible that Conley would have the same impact as Lawson. 

                   

                  As a 3PT Shooter, just for reference, Conley and Beverley have roughly the same 3PT% for their careers. 

                   

                  I was surprised to see that Conley's USG rate is actually higher than Lawson's (this year excluded for Lawson). I had the perception that Conley played more off the ball, since Gasol does a lot of facilitating from the high post in the Grizzly offense. But also, I'm wondering if there is more to just the metric because Pat Beverley's USG rate is actually around 15% (compared to ~20% for Lawson and about ~22% for Conley). You would think the gap would be bigger... 

                   

                  I also wanted to take a look at defense - Conley has the reputation of being a good defender (but note that he's also on a defensive-oriented team in the Grizzlies). NBA Defensive Real Plus-Minus disagrees. Conley rates at -.88, 29th in the league. Beverley, for comparison, is at 0.64, 8th in the league. Conley barely outranked Beverley last year, Conley at -.26 and Bev at -.30.

                   

                  It seems the stats disagree with my eye-test. I don't know if I trust Defensive Real Plus-Minus (while it rates Rubio as the best PG defender, which is defensible, it rates Curry as the 3rd best), but it is disconcerting to see Conley so far down the list. So I rescind my comment - I don't think Conley would be a good fit next to Harden. 


                  Edited by majik19, 06 April 2016 - 05:00 PM.

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                  #12 clydesmoustache

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                    Posted 06 April 2016 - 10:14 PM



                    As a 3PT Shooter, just for reference, Conley and Beverley have roughly the same 3PT% for their careers.


                    Whoops I was looking at playoff 3pt% which is surprisingly woeful.
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                    #13 txtdo1411

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                    Posted 06 April 2016 - 10:22 PM

                    I actually like KJ in there next to Harden. He is an absolute beast on the defensive end. He is like a bigger, quicker Pat Bev without the 3 point shot. Obviously on offense he would somewhat be a liability, but at least he can finish around the rim and his shot is starting to somewhat look better. I don't know, it could be the biggest disaster ever, but I really want him to get his fair shot. Every time he comes into the game, I feel like the defense instantly changes, because he is a perimeter defender that can actually stay in front of his man. Probably the only perimeter player on the roster that can consistently stay in front of his man (you could probably include Ariza here as well, but I'm not so sure anymore).

                     

                    Outside of my pipe dream of running a backcourt of Harden-McDaniels, Bev is really a great fit with Harden. He isn't the best defender at his position anymore, but he is still serviceable on that end, and has been a pretty dang good 3 pt shooter this season. I don't see us making a huge upgrade in terms of "fit" next to Harden. My biggest grip with Beverely is his lack of ability to pass to a big man on the block. He struggles so much with these. Given how little we post up our bigs though, it isn't the biggest of issues. 


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                    #14 isaacjunk

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                      Posted 08 April 2016 - 09:52 AM

                      I agree Beverley's D is not the same---must be injury-related?  He's only 27 for chrissakes...


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                      #15 Willk

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                        Posted 08 April 2016 - 01:13 PM

                        I agree Beverley's D is not the same---must be injury-related? He's only 27 for chrissakes...

                        I think PBev's biggest value during his first 1.5 years was his ability to harass the other PG for the entire length of the court, thus the nickname Mr 94 feet. The extra 4 seconds it took for the other team to get into their sets really helped their defense. I'm guessing the coaches asked him to stop. I doubt Beverley did it on his own.
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                        #16 thenit

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                          Posted 09 April 2016 - 05:37 PM

                          I think PBev's biggest value during his first 1.5 years was his ability to harass the other PG for the entire length of the court, thus the nickname Mr 94 feet. The extra 4 seconds it took for the other team to get into their sets really helped their defense. I'm guessing the coaches asked him to stop. I doubt Beverley did it on his own.

                           

                          I don't think it was a team decision. It just not doable when you play the minutes he does now. The first 1.5 years he was the backup to Lin, and he could go full out in those 15-20 minutes a game. Also since his injury he seems to have lost a step and having more trouble keeping up. He is still an ok defender but he doesn't bring much today. Another problem is also with more film, his value on D also becomes less effective.


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                          #17 BallSoHarden

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                            Posted 09 April 2016 - 08:01 PM

                            This reminds me of the "How do you build a team around James Harden?" thread a while back, where Harden was compared to LeBron (our primary ball handler, passer, shot taker, etc.). Like LeBron often does, it's been a popular opinion on this site that Harden should actually guard PF at the end of games. A player who lines up at PG on offense and PF on defense, gives a team a lot of freedom on the other players they decide to play with him. Which brings us to how the direction the game is going, POSITIONLESS basketball with all players dabbling in a little bit of everything. I don't think it matters if you name Harden "the PG," as long as the other players play well off of him and all 5 coexist. LeBron's teams are at their best with a secondary playmaker who can create after his initial motion & pass without controlling the ball extended time (Wade), just like how Parsons could "create" off of Harden (shoot or pump fake and drive). We've discovered that pairing a ball dominant PG next to Harden isn't going to work. We need a wing(s) who can shoot the 3, play defense, and attack off the initial pass from Harden and keep a play alive, without requiring the ball themselves. Players I'd be interested in joining the Rockets through FA (other than Durant and Horford of course) are:

                            1st tier:

                            Barnes ®

                            Fournier ®

                            Beal ®

                            Deng

                             

                            2nd tier:

                            Bazemore

                            Batum

                            Dellavedova ®

                            Ryan Anderson

                            Afflalo

                            Teletovic

                            Crabbe ®

                            Ross ®

                             

                            I also think we need a backup PG who does control the ball and be the primary creator when Harden is not playing though. Look at what Pablo Prigioni did for us in the playoffs, he came in and ran an offense controlling the ball and making smart floor general decisions. We need someone who has experience but is not too old yet to run our 2nd unit when Harden sits. The 2 FAs I can think of are an Aaron Brooks return or a chance on Greivis Vasquez. Or if Sergio Llull ever comes over seas.


                            Edited by BallSoHarden, 09 April 2016 - 08:06 PM.

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                            #18 clydesmoustache

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                              Posted 10 April 2016 - 09:03 AM

                              Jimmy Butler might be available with all that is happening in Chicago. He would be a nice wing next to Harden but would you do the trade if you needed to include Harden?
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                              #19 slick shoes

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                              Posted 10 April 2016 - 04:06 PM

                              Jimmy Butler might be available with all that is happening in Chicago. He would be a nice wing next to Harden but would you do the trade if you needed to include Harden?

                               

                              I would trade Butler for Harden straight up TODAY. Where do I sign?


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                              when you win two games in a row that's called a winning streak.

                              trickin' six digits on kicks and still holdin'.

                              #20 clydesmoustache

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                                Posted 22 April 2016 - 12:01 AM

                                I would trade Butler for Harden straight up TODAY. Where do I sign?

                                Maybe we can package him with Brewer. A Gator reunion with Noah.
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