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@  slick shoes : (04 May 2016 - 03:07 PM) I'm really enjoying the fact that we have only interviewed one coaching prospect and he would rather coach the 2nd worst team in the NBA than us.
@  thenit : (28 April 2016 - 06:27 PM) Harden is the best offensive player but the best overall was Klay last night
@  majik19 : (28 April 2016 - 04:25 AM) klay thompson is the best player on the floor. hard to win when Harden isn't the best.
@  majik19 : (28 April 2016 - 04:19 AM) GS is better at hitting bad/covered shots than anyone on our team is at hitting open shots.
@  majik19 : (28 April 2016 - 04:16 AM) that was embarassing. 4 offensive rebounds. 2 missed 3s by Ariza and 2 missed 3s by Beverley.
@  Cooper : (28 April 2016 - 03:24 AM) this team is depressing
@  majik19 : (28 April 2016 - 03:01 AM) Ariza is a complete negative on the floor. he can't hit a shot or fight through/around a screen to save his life
@  majik19 : (28 April 2016 - 02:54 AM) everyone but james harden is terrible right now
@  thejohnnygold : (27 April 2016 - 08:49 PM) I think Walton is going to be a solid hire for somebody. I wouldn't mind if it were for us.
@  slick shoes : (27 April 2016 - 06:15 PM) I'd like to see them take it full circle and hire Walton. I don't know if he's the right buy for their young core currently, but maybe 2-3 years from now.
@  thejohnnygold : (27 April 2016 - 05:24 PM) Knowing LA, they will do something that leaves us all scratching our heads.
@  slick shoes : (27 April 2016 - 04:56 PM) While I do favor JVG, I hope that we also kick the tires on a few other guys as well.
@  thejohnnygold : (27 April 2016 - 01:34 PM) If you mean JVG--no, I'm not worried. :)
@  slick shoes : (27 April 2016 - 12:32 PM) Is it just me or is the Lakers firing Scott a bit worrisome for our coaching search?
@  DenverRocket : (27 April 2016 - 12:02 AM) Seems like Parsons is already trying to recruit Dwight to the Mavs ;-)
@  DenverRocket : (26 April 2016 - 05:51 AM) I love KD even more after his post-match response to that Cuban comment: "He's a idiot!" :)
@  slick shoes : (26 April 2016 - 03:01 AM) Why give Westbrook bulletin board material in a closeout game?
@  Mario Peña : (26 April 2016 - 02:28 AM) That insult Cuban hurled at Westbrook was classic big mouth Cuban. It gave Wedtbrook some fuel no doubt.
@  Mario Peña : (25 April 2016 - 02:40 AM) I can't stand the Warriors but I hate to see great players fall prey to injuries. Seems like Steph could be done till next season which is unfortunate since he does play on one team I root for, Team USA.
@  majik19 : (24 April 2016 - 10:02 PM) down by 23 points and we have McDaniels AND Brewer in. WTF?

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Will James Harden mature?


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#1 Red94

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    Posted 23 July 2014 - 01:06 PM

    New post: Will James Harden mature?
    By: rahat huq

    I was watching some old Youtube clips of Steve Francis this past weekend and reflecting back on that dark era in Rockets history.  When he came in, that rookie year, he was just an absolute sensation, viewed as almost a new-age Isiah Thomas.  He couldn't handle a zone defense or run a fastbreak* to save his life, but we ignored that - he was breaking ankles and making posters, a walking triple-double with one of the most exciting games in the league.  We ignored his flaws assuming he'd mature.  As he had never actually played point guard, it was reasonable to assume he'd learn the position with time.

    *Someone always expresses bewilderment upon my making this statement, citing Francis' catalog of open-court slams.  What I mean when I say Francis couldn't run the fastbreak is that he didn't run it in the role of a point guard.  If he was alone, he'd take it in for the slam, which is fine, but if there were any defenders back, his natural inclination was to go to the wings rather than keeping the ball in the middle of the floor as a point guard is taught to do.  This is why it was oh so ironic when he basically described himself as a shooting guard in one of his more infamous quotes, regarding what the team should do with the #1 pick, saying, "With Lamar running the break, and me and Cuttino on the wings, it's over."

    But of course, he didn't learn the position or improve.  He eventually was traded for Tracy McGrady while he actually still held value.  The Magic let him play the way he wanted, and his numbers improved, but when they too cut back his role, again his game couldn't adapt.  Steve just wasn't a point guard and didn't know how to be one.  If he wasn't the focal point of the offense, he couldn't really bring much to the team.  (I've made the comparison to Jeremy Lin many times previously).

    This brings me to James Harden.  He's one of the three or four best scorers in basketball, so good that he basically was able to single-handedly assure a playoff berth in the loaded Western Conference.  But will he ever bend his back on defense?  Will he stop pouting and be a leader? We made excuses for Harden too, like we did for Francis.  2013 was his first as a go-to option, he didn't have the energy to play both ends.  But then after getting Dwight, things didn't improve.  His effort levels improved over the season, before reaching ridiculous lows in the playoffs against Portland.  Not giving effort defensively in the postseason is unforgivable.

    Harden will be turning 25 this season.  I pointed out recently that 25 was the age at which Tracy McGrady was last considered a true superstar, deeming it a reminder of how short opportunities can last.  Many of you rushed to Harden's defense, pointing out McGrady's reliance on athleticism, completely missing my point.  What I'm trying to say is that windows are often shorter than they seem; anything can happen, for any reason, not just injury.  The Wolves didn't think Stephon Marbury and Kevin Garnett would clash; the Magic probably didn't see Shaq leaving Penny behind.  Things happen.

    As acknowledged, James Harden's game will age gracefully.  But will he ever "get it" during Dwight's prime?  It's tempting to say Harden's just 25, giving us a 7-year window, but we actually have a team right now, due to Howard, that can contend.  This team would undoubtedly be better if it weren't getting a complete '0' defensively from one of its wing slots; Howard won't always be around.  I hope Harden gains some urgency before that window slams shut.  The Rockets can't control free agency, but they can help themselves in other ways.

     


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    #2 timetodienow1234567

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    Posted 23 July 2014 - 02:31 PM

    Age gracefully? How so? His entire game is based off of athleticism getting to the rim. If he loses a step he's a backup. He does have a good shot but not good enough to be a star without that insane drive and kick game.

    Everything else I agree with .
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    Why so Serious? :D


    #3 Johnny Rocket

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      Posted 23 July 2014 - 02:50 PM



      Lets assume that the Harden's defensive does not improve significantly this year. Let's also assume that the Rox win 55 games and get bounced during the 2nd round. Under those circumstances, do you begin to entertain trades for Harden? If it is all about winning championships, when do you know that you'll never win one with his defensive liabilities?


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      #4 txtdo1411

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      Posted 23 July 2014 - 03:24 PM

      Age gracefully? How so? His entire game is based off of athleticism getting to the rim. If he loses a step he's a backup. He does have a good shot but not good enough to be a star without that insane drive and kick game.

      Everything else I agree with .

       

      I completely disagree on his game being based on athleticism. His offensive game is all based on positioning, and rarely does he use his athleticism to gain an upper edge. It is more fakes, using his body to shield defenders, euro-step etc. He is strong for his size, but outside of that, I wouldn't consider him an elite athlete (well at least among NBA players). 

       

      I agree with you agreeing with everything else said haha. I do expect him to continue to mature, but it could just be the optimist in me. He is such a skilled player, and has games where he puts in the effort on both sides of the court (ex. 2nd Pacers game & Game 6 of the Portland series). If he can put it together, he would be a legitimate competitor for the MVP award. It just depends on him mentally maturing. I think Dwight has really matured in the last couple years, and I hope he can be a mentor to James. At the end of the day though it all depends on if Harden himself has the desire to be a champion, or if he's satisfied just being a great scorer in the league. 


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      #5 Freebird

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      Posted 23 July 2014 - 03:56 PM

      The Rox *have* helped themselves in other ways.  Notably, getting a wing that will play defense.  Love Chandler, but he saw the money Harden got coming here, and saw what defense Harden had to play to get said money.  His course shifted to focus on offense because of this.  Having a wing that plays D will hopefully mesh with D12, and perhaps 'learn' Harden a bit.  Having 3 defensive minded players on the court might change his focus a bit.


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      #6 thejohnnygold

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      Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:36 PM

      I'm not overly concerned about this article....I'm mostly an optimist and I like to think that Harden is going to show improvement in this area--I could be wrong....

       

      As for Parsons, does anyone remember the Cuban remarks shortly after signing him?  He said that he "polled" players around the league and many said Parsons was one of the toughest defenders they faced.  So, where is the disconnect?  Are we not seeing it?  Is Cuban "spinning" his overpay to the public?


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      #7 slick shoes

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      Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:43 PM

      I'm not overly concerned about this article....I'm mostly an optimist and I like to think that Harden is going to show improvement in this area--I could be wrong....

       

      As for Parsons, does anyone remember the Cuban remarks shortly after signing him?  He said that he "polled" players around the league and many said Parsons was one of the toughest defenders they faced.  So, where is the disconnect?  Are we not seeing it?  Is Cuban "spinning" his overpay to the public?

       

      What players were polled? How many were polled? It would be easy for him to spin his results to convey his move as brilliance.


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      when you win two games in a row that's called a winning streak.

      trickin' six digits on kicks and still holdin'.

      #8 thejohnnygold

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      Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:55 PM

      What players were polled? How many were polled? It would be easy for him to spin his results to convey his move as brilliance.

       

      Here's the quote:

       

       

       

      "He's a willing defender," Cuban said. "One of the reasons I went after him, one of the things I did, I went and talked to all of the scorers that I know and I asked who defended them the best and list the top three, and Chandler was on the list a few times. He's not a shutdown defender, but he's a work-hard defender. He's an irritant.

       

       

      Yeah....it does sound a bit like spin-doctoring to me.


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      #9 QNoir

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        Posted 23 July 2014 - 07:45 PM

        Will he mature into a superstar that receives the bulk of the credit for a title-worthy team? I don't see it happening. But sure, I think he'll mature into a player that can follow a great system, whenever a coach comes along to implement it.


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        #10 edrozora

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          Posted 23 July 2014 - 09:03 PM



          Good article Rahat, but the quote you attributed to Francis about Lamar Odom was actually made by Cuttino Mobley...

          source: http://www.clutchcit...trade_for_odom/


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          #11 Buckko

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            Posted 23 July 2014 - 09:59 PM

            Age gracefully? How so? His entire game is based off of athleticism getting to the rim. If he loses a step he's a backup. He does have a good shot but not good enough to be a star without that insane drive and kick game.

            Everything else I agree with .

            You just described Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook, not harden.

            Edited by Buckko, 23 July 2014 - 09:59 PM.

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            #12 majik19

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              Posted 23 July 2014 - 10:06 PM

              While everyone sours on Harden, just wanted to show this graphic from an ESPN Insider article that's actually about Kevin Love:

               

              pelton_bestscorers.jpg

               

              Yeah - Harden is not only a great scorer, he's elite and at the top of the class behind Durant and Lebron. Let's not forget that - any scenarios that involve trading Harden mean we are trading a guy that essentially can't be replaced on the offensive end. 


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              #13 thenit

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                Posted 23 July 2014 - 11:10 PM

                No one has ever argued that he can't score. He is one of the best and efficient scorer in the nba. It's that in order to win we will have to see growth on the other side of he he court. Like Rahat mentioned Dwight's prime is limited and I'm doubtful that harden will figure it out in that timespan until it's too late within that time frame. I can't think of a nba championship team who won it, with their best player not playing at least respectable D. I hope I am wrong but my argument is that you see other young star players who at least gives an effort and therefore I believe they have better chance of winning a championship later on.
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                #14 RudyT1995

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                  Posted 24 July 2014 - 01:09 AM

                  Age gracefully? How so? His entire game is based off of athleticism getting to the rim. If he loses a step he's a backup. He does have a good shot but not good enough to be a star without that insane drive and kick game.

                   

                  It's funny that the big knock on Harden coming out of ASU was that he didn't have elite athleticism.  

                   

                  From what I've seen, Harden gets to the rim mostly on change of direction and upper body strength.  He doesn't explode past defenders like Rose, Westbrook, a young Iverson, etc.  He kind of bullies his way through traffic or freezes defenders with his euro step.  

                   

                  He's also a crafty ball handler.  He often uses an array of crossovers and hesitation dribbles to wrong foot his defender.  

                   

                  Harden is essentially Manu if Manu was a lazy defender.  Manu was consistently elite until 32 or 33.  I would expect Harden's game to age the same way.


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                  #15 Red94

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                    Posted 24 July 2014 - 01:09 AM



                    on athleticism - i compare harden to a paul pierce and carmelo anthony type. he'll age like fine wine, maybe even get better. he uses that beer belly of his to throw his defender off.

                    as for trading him, no - you just have to build around him and the more i think about it, ariza for parsons is a step in that direction. he's simply far too gifted offensively to ever trade away just because of defense.


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                    #16 timetodienow1234567

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                    Posted 24 July 2014 - 01:16 AM

                    He's not explosive athletically, but he uses his quickness to get tonsured on the floor before the defenders. I don't think he's unathletic. I just think it manifests in quickness rather than jumping .
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                    Why so Serious? :D


                    #17 Mario Peña

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                    Posted 24 July 2014 - 02:14 AM

                    on athleticism - i compare harden to a paul pierce and carmelo anthony type. he'll age like fine wine, maybe even get better. he uses that beer belly of his to throw his defender off.

                    as for trading him, no - you just have to build around him and the more i think about it, ariza for parsons is a step in that direction. he's simply far too gifted offensively to ever trade away just because of defense.

                     

                     

                    Beer belly, hah!

                     

                    In reference to your comparison I agree the Paul Pierce comparison is a good one. To me Harden's game is a combination of timing and seeing what is happening on the floor before other players do and the quick mental process he goes through to change direction is elite and that goes back to reading his defender and his help. I still think the rest of the Rockets have been trying to catch up to James' passing ability and hopefully he and Howard experience a jump in their chemistry this season. Harden plays chess when most guys are playing checkers.

                     

                    Agreed, you never trade Harden. He is an elite player that scores and creates for teammates. I have been watching a lot of games from this past season and it's evident he really puts an effort into getting teammates easy buckets maybe to the point of where he was forcing it. I am hoping with defensive improvement that the Rockets league worst turnover differential will turn around dramatically with a decrease in total turnovers as well. Harden should improve there and now that he is flanked by Beverley and Ariza maybe good defense will turn into some easy offense.


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                    I can't stand the Warriors!

                    #18 Johnny Rocket

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                      Posted 24 July 2014 - 04:11 AM

                      I basically agree with Rahat and Feeling Supersonic about why you never trade a guy like Harden.  Let me play devil's advocate, though. Has there ever been an NBA champion in which the focal point of the team--"the star"--was really bad at defense?  Jordan, Dream, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron--all excellent defensive players.   Sure, some of those guys (especially Shaq) didn't give a 100 percent every night on the defensive end, but they all played good to great defense in key games and in the playoffs.  Am I missing somebody?  Will a Rocket's championship be unprecedented in that respect?


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                      #19 Buckko

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                        Posted 24 July 2014 - 04:43 AM

                        I'm curious, can anybody pull up any defensive stats for Harden post ASB, because that's when he looked like he seriously pick his game up on that side of the floor before crashing and burning in the playoffs.


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                        #20 RudyT1995

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                          Posted 24 July 2014 - 04:58 AM

                          Let me play devil's advocate, though. Has there ever been an NBA champion in which the focal point of the team--"the star"--was really bad at defense?  

                           

                          Plenty of championship teams were led by average one-on-one defenders.  Magic, Bird, Isiah Thomas, Chauncey Billups, Dwyane Wade, and Dirk were all somewhere between below average to average one-on-one.  They played good team defense though.  They knew how to communicate and at least they played hard.  

                           

                          Harden kind of stands out because he doesn't always play hard on defense, doesn't communicate, and sometimes looks flat out lost.


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