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@  Ostrow : (30 June 2013 - 05:07 AM) Looks like CP3 is telling people he is off the market. Think Morey still makes a pitch?
@  2016Champions : (22 June 2013 - 06:12 PM) While we're making changes, is it possible to add the option of spoiler tags?
@  2016Champions : (22 June 2013 - 06:12 PM) Oh I see, there's a time frame now.
@  2016Champions : (22 June 2013 - 06:08 PM) Why was the option of editing posts removed?
@  RollingWave : (19 June 2013 - 05:12 AM) so the head band is like a final power seal for Lebron, only open in absolute need
@  BenQueens : (19 June 2013 - 03:51 AM) Ray Allen, why not. This is going to be 5.2 intense seconds of ball.
@  BenQueens : (19 June 2013 - 03:39 AM) Holy crap, that Parker 3.
@  BenQueens : (19 June 2013 - 03:38 AM) Please let there be a game 7, and let this be the margin in the 4Q of 7. Awesome.
@  RollingWave : (19 June 2013 - 03:18 AM) oh my, this is an epic game .. one more run by Duncan should....
@  2016Champions : (17 June 2013 - 05:26 AM) I had a feeling Ginobili would regress to the mean.
@  Dan G : (17 June 2013 - 04:33 AM) Now I had no idea Ginobli was gonna pull a Wade and turn back the clock. I give Pop the majority of the credit for that.
@  Dan G : (17 June 2013 - 04:32 AM) I don't think it was too ballsy on San Antonio's part. With the way Splitter has been playing and since Miami has started Miller the last two games, I thought it was inevitable that Ginobli would start.
@  RollingWave : (17 June 2013 - 02:57 AM) I must say that both team had some serious ballsy lineup changes this series, Ginobilli start? and dominate?
@  2016Champions : (16 June 2013 - 09:26 PM) According to Dr. Klapper, treatment for Parker's hamstring will only last one half. Lateral movement and jumping will be a problem.
@  2016Champions : (16 June 2013 - 04:56 AM) Parker said Pop was very angry with him for the constant nagging insisting he can play, Pop really didn't want Parker to play. Just goes to show Pop knows best.
@  RollingWave : (16 June 2013 - 04:28 AM) Parker says his hamstring is almost shot , that would probably doom the Spurs if he can't play at least 80%
@  2016Champions : (15 June 2013 - 12:38 AM) Miami is 6-0 in playoffs following losses (outscoring opponents by 20.7 PPG in those games). They've won 12 straight games following losses.
@  2016Champions : (14 June 2013 - 04:50 PM) The Heat are notoriously slow starters. Once they get going it's like a snowball effect, they get more dangerous as they go along.
@  2016Champions : (14 June 2013 - 04:49 PM) My heart says SA, but my mind says MIA
@  rocketrick : (14 June 2013 - 11:06 AM) Anybody else going to San Antone for Game 5??

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On the Heat, Leonard, and McGrady


41 replies to this topic

#1 Red94

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    Posted 21 June 2013 - 12:18 PM

    New post: On the Heat, Leonard, and McGrady
    By: rahat huq

    • I’m so relieved that the Heat managed to hold on and win the title.  It means we’re spared a summer of trite platitudes reminding us of Lebron’s flaws.  I should also mention that I was amused by how what seemed like the entire internet (or at least my newsfeed on Facebook) picked the 4th quarter of Game 6 to triumphantly play the ‘Not Jordan’ card in all its effervescent profundity.  How’d that work out?
    • The most remarkable thing about Lebron isn’t his greatness or what he’s accomplished: it’s that he actually came into the league with these expectations thrust upon him.  Really, has there ever been anyone, in any field, that completely lived up to the hype?
    • Can we please give it a rest about the Kawhi Leonard blunder?  The Rockets obviously picked the wrong guy (having chosen Marcus Morris over him), but that’s never been in dispute.  The issue is that it doesn’t naturally follow, as most have assumed, that Leonard would have turned out the way that he has on any other team, particularly the Rockets.  Oh, he still would have been a better player than Marcus Morris - that doesn’t take much.  But it’s no secret that the Spurs place unique emphasis upon player development in ways that other organizations cannot afford.  Their young guys get the reps and are able to learn to play the game the right way and that in turn leads to results.  Which brings me to my next point…

     

    • The Spurs are amazing; Tony Parker is amazing; Pop is amazing; Duncan is amazing; Kawhi has arrived.  This is all irrefutable.  But can we stop evaluating everything in a vacuum?  The Spurs—and everything related to the Spurs—are the Spurs because everything fit into place perfectly in ways unprecedented in the modern era.  You had a transcendent #1 pick fall into the lap of an already tailor-made championship supporting cast.  From there, a legacy was spawned.  Everything must be viewed from within that prism and its corresponding effects.  Take Pop: he’s amazing, I get that.  I’m not disputing that.  But it really bugs me when he’s discussed as some sort of infallible God, unmatched by his peers.  He’s able to do things that no one else can because of that aforementioned infrastructure.  Take a minute to read the Grantland piece on Tracy McGrady from yesterday.  (I thought the premise was unfair, but I digress.)  In it, it’s mentioned that McGrady didn’t learn the right values because they weren’t taught/stressed by his coaches.  And that’s really the point here about Pop.  He’s able to demand the ideal because he has that cache; Duncan has his back and if Duncan has already bought in, nothing else matters.  No one in modern history, even Phil Jackson, has had that luxury.  Look at it this way: let’s say you want your kids to be perfectly healthy and great at school or whatever.  So the ideal way of ensuring that occurrence is outright restricting their sugar/junk intake, making them take piano lessons from age 5, etc al.  But if you live in reality, you know that’ll never work.  Why?  Because the kids will rebel and the bubble will burst.  So you know you have to take the moderate ground and pick your battles.  I compare that to Pop.  He’s able to demand the bubble ideal because Duncan bought in.  He’s able to scream at the likes of Ginobili and Parker for minor errors—and consequently also younger players—demanding perfection, because Duncan bought in.  There’s no risk of rebellion because Duncan bought in.  It’s literally Pop’s way or the highway and that breeds the ideal and execution of the ideal.  Rumor had it that during his stint with the Rockets, Tracy McGrady was often allowed to rest on the sidelines during practice.  He certainly rested on the defensive end during games.  Why was this allowed?  Because Jeff Van Gundy knew he had to pick his battles.  He didn’t have total rule and knew he’d completely lose McGrady if he didn’t tread carefully.  That’s also the case with every other coach in the NBA.
    • There will be discussion in the coming months of the merits of the efficiency approach (in eschewing midrange jumpshots.)  I think a few points are being missed, however.  That a team should prefer close and long doesn’t necessarily mean that its individual players should neglect the midrange aspect of their game.  And this statement is not inconsistent with the overarching philosophy.  Seek out shots from close and long, because they are mathematically preferable, but when they are taken away (as we saw last night), resort to taking what is given (the midrange).  Why is the argument sprouting up that these paint-packing schemes are debunking the philosophy?  That close-range shots are being taken away doesn’t somehow mean they’re not preferable.  They’re still preferred and should be sought out (along with 3 pointers.)  You just need to also be able to hit midrange jumpers.  To that point, I hope James Harden was watching last night.  Too often last season, he was bottled up when the outside stroke wasn’t falling and the gimmick moves to the hoop weren’t working.
    • The Heat are very beatable and that is encouraging.  But it depends on how they reload this summer.  As Chris Mannix mentioned last night, the Greg Oden situation will be an interesting one to watch.  But Dwyane Wade is clearly on his last legs and no longer invincible.
    • A final note: I felt a certain sadness last night, at the culmination, watching Tracy McGrady extend congratulations to Lebron James and Dwyane Wade.  They weren’t the extended exchanges that you saw James/Wade partake in with Tim Duncan or often see take place between opposing stars after a series finish.  You know, the ones where they hug it out and are still talking and you can see the mutual respect - the type that you would have once expected for a man of McGrady’s stature.  No, it was just a quick, fleeting acknowledgment, the kind you’d give to someone like Matt Bonner.  But that’ s essentially what/who McGrady has become.  Even worse, through this Finals and playoff run, he’s been a punchline, a spectacle.  Late in blowouts, I’ve cringed when the home crowd has cheered for him to get a hoop, as if in the same manner one would encourage their 5-year-old brother.  It wasn’t supposed to be this way.  At the least, shouldn’t he have gone out with the same dignity as other greying stars riding the bench in the Finals?  I don’t remember anyone laughing when Mitch Richmond played out the last few seconds of the Lakers’ first title clincher.  But that’s just how it is and I guess it makes sense.  T-Mac is still just 34, a shell of an NBA player, yet a man who once was considered the very best the entire league had to offer.  That striking juxtaposition is really all that’s needed to make sense of the jeers.


    #2 feelingsupersonic

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    Posted 21 June 2013 - 12:30 PM

    <br /><br /><p>The Beatles completely lived up to the hype in their field and then redefined the music world but yes finding indivividuals that live up to the hype is rare.</p>

    #3 bboley24

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      Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:15 PM

      My Tmac sentiments exactly.  Gotta be a way to get tmac on our roster when we make a run.  



      #4 John P

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        Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:20 PM



        On drafting Morris: mistakes happen. Didn't most teams in the league pass on Parker and Ginoboli too. Everyone has made mistakes (though there are a few really big stinkers like Portland choosing Oden over Durant).

        On the buy in...I don't think that it is just Duncan's buy in that does it. I think Pop won a championship...and then another...etc...and if you come and play for that coach you come in having to respect him to begin with.

        On TMac....I cna't say that it bothers me that much about TMac. There are lots of players in the NBA who have worked hard, gone through hard times, and didn't win a championship. TMac was given lots of physical ability and at least at times it appeared that he really didn't do enough to take it to the next level....or just keep basically healthy.

        I know there are some people whose bodies just break down over others....see Oden, Roy, or the entire old Portland franchise, but there were times that it just didn't seem that TMac was taking the tough road. I never saw the dedication or determination to play through pain/injuries. Not to say he was always faking it but he never seemed to be the guy who led by example. He was never a Duncan, Kobe, LeBron, Durant as a great player who also puts the work in and leads by example. He is more like a Melo or a Josh Smith...lots of physical gifts that serve him well but he doesn't seem to add that much extra to improve or keep his abilities from sliding

        Great game and series though.....but Danny Green was shown for what he is....a great shooter when open but worthless when covered....and Manu looks like he is done



        #5 2016Champions

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        Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:52 PM

        But it’s no secret that the Spurs place unique emphasis upon player development in ways that other organizations cannot afford. 

         

        The Rockets don't? 


        Debates are destructive as they present one-sided opinions and demolish reasoned arguments, whereas discussions are constructive and encourage the expression of opinion.

         

        Debate is the death of conversation.


        #6 cjuice28

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          Posted 21 June 2013 - 03:15 PM

          I agree the trite platitudes would be present, and they would be false. Lebron is the best player in the NBA and is quite capable. However, he is so smug and arrogant, I just can't enjoy his success, particularly when Duncan, who seems like a great dude, is on the other side.



          #7 Rahat Huq

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            Posted 21 June 2013 - 03:36 PM

            The Rockets don't? 

            There's a reason D-Mo couldn't get on the court before Morey had to basically just trade away the guys ahead of him to force it: McHale has to worry about his job and that means he has to worry about losing.  Pop plays young players whenever he wants. 



            #8 manmythlegend

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              Posted 21 June 2013 - 04:33 PM

              There's a reason D-Mo couldn't get on the court before Morey had to basically just trade away the guys ahead of him to force it: McHale has to worry about his job and that means he has to worry about losing.  Pop plays young players whenever he wants. 

               

              Yup. It's one thing to make decisions as a coach where you know you are untouchable. It's another to coach in a manner to keep your job.  

               

              It will be interesting to see how McHale is viewed if Howard signs with Houston.  The expectations and pressure will be far greater on him.  I don't believe he his a championship coach.



              #9 rocketrick

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                Posted 21 June 2013 - 04:45 PM

                I agree the trite platitudes would be present, and they would be false. Lebron is the best player in the NBA and is quite capable. However, he is so smug and arrogant, I just can't enjoy his success, particularly when Duncan, who seems like a great dude, is on the other side.

                I remember feeling the same way about Air Jordan and found myself always rooting for his opponent in the NBA Playoffs. Over time, you come to realize how rare a player of Air Jordan's stature is and I, for one, appreciate even more the obstacles Lebron has overcome and now at age 28, he is in position to accomplish even more than Jordan did. Will Lebron surpass Jordan? Only time will tell, but no doubt he is a rare player that at minimum has to be respected now.

                #10 rocketrick

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                  Posted 21 June 2013 - 04:49 PM

                  Yup. It's one thing to make decisions as a coach where you know you are untouchable. It's another to coach in a manner to keep your job.  
                   
                  It will be interesting to see how McHale is viewed if Howard signs with Houston.  The expectations and pressure will be far greater on him.  I don't believe he his a championship coach.

                  If Eric Spoelstra is able to earn the respect of all-time greats like Lebron, D-Wade, Ray Allen et al, then why can't Coach McHale especially with McHale's pedigree as a Champion? I have much more respect for Spoelstra now than I did in his early years.

                  #11 rocketrick

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                    Posted 21 June 2013 - 05:06 PM

                    On the buy in...I don't think that it is just Duncan's buy in that does it. I think Pop won a championship...and then another...etc...and if you come and play for that coach you come in having to respect him to begin with.

                    Popovich took over as Head Coach during the 1996-97 season while still acting as the GM for the Spurs at the time. They finished in the lottery that season, drafted Tim Duncan #1 and the rest is now history. So actually Popovich had not yet won an NBA Title when Duncan joined the team.

                    I totally agree with Rahat, that without Duncan (and the Admiral in those early years) buying in to Popovich's system, the Spurs as we know them today probably would not exist.

                    #12 rocketrick

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                      Posted 21 June 2013 - 05:12 PM

                      On TMac....I cna't say that it bothers me that much about TMac. There are lots of players in the NBA who have worked hard, gone through hard times, and didn't win a championship. TMac was given lots of physical ability and at least at times it appeared that he really didn't do enough to take it to the next level....or just keep basically healthy.

                      In my humble opinion, the reason TMac never succeeded in the NBA was precisely because he chose NOT to work hard in practice, in the offseason, etc. to find ways to improve his game and find ways to make his teammates better.

                      TMac probably had more talent and potential than just about anyone that has ever been in the NBA, yet his career is a testament that talent and potential alone does not make you a Champion.

                      #13 manmythlegend

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                        Posted 21 June 2013 - 05:19 PM

                        If Eric Spoelstra is able to earn the respect of all-time greats like Lebron, D-Wade, Ray Allen et al, then why can't Coach McHale especially with McHale's pedigree as a Champion? I have much more respect for Spoelstra now than I did in his early years.

                         

                        I'm not commenting on the players respecting McHale. I just don't believe him to be a great coach and view him on the same lines of Isiah Thomas as former great players who were mediocre head coaches at best.



                        #14 rocketrick

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                          Posted 21 June 2013 - 05:26 PM

                          I'm not commenting on the players respecting McHale. I just don't believe him to be a great coach and view him on the same lines of Isiah Thomas as former great players who were mediocre head coaches at best.

                          Great NBA Head Coaches always have the full respect of their players. I'm just saying Coach McHale has that potential, especially with his NBA Championship pedigree and his own individual story of hard work resulting in success.

                          #15 manmythlegend

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                            Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:50 PM

                            Great NBA Head Coaches always have the full respect of their players. I'm just saying Coach McHale has that potential, especially with his NBA Championship pedigree and his own individual story of hard work resulting in success.

                             

                            Lots of former great players are walking around with championship rings. Very few of them parlay that into a championship ring as a head coach, for whatever reason. Aside from Lenny Wilkens and Tommy Heinsohn, I can't think of another HoF player who won a championship as a head coach. 



                            #16 rocketrick

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                              Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:27 PM

                              Lots of former great players are walking around with championship rings. Very few of them parlay that into a championship ring as a head coach, for whatever reason. Aside from Lenny Wilkens and Tommy Heinsohn, I can't think of another HoF player who won a championship as a head coach. 

                              Tommy Heinsohn, Bill Russell, KC Jones, Bill Sharman are all NBA Hall of Fame Players who won NBA Titles as Head Coaches. Larry Bird probably could have if he had the desire. That's really why there aren't as many Hall of Fame Players who are successful Head Coaches, it's really because most of them don't have the desire to be a Head Coach and never even try.

                               

                              Phil Jackson was an average NBA Player who did play a 6th man role for a couple of seasons for the Knicks who parlayed his playing career into becoming the most successful NBA Coach of all time.



                              #17 rocketrick

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                                Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:30 PM

                                There are plenty of other NBA Players who have been successful NBA Head Coaches. Doc Rivers, Jerry Sloan, Don Nelson, Mark Jackson immediately come to mind. There have been a few failures but for the most part, the vast majority of NBA Players choose to not go into the coaching ranks after their playing career ends.



                                #18 cjuice28

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                                  Posted 21 June 2013 - 10:02 PM

                                  I remember feeling the same way about Air Jordan and found myself always rooting for his opponent in the NBA Playoffs. Over time, you come to realize how rare a player of Air Jordan's stature is and I, for one, appreciate even more the obstacles Lebron has overcome and now at age 28, he is in position to accomplish even more than Jordan did. Will Lebron surpass Jordan? Only time will tell, but no doubt he is a rare player that at minimum has to be respected now.

                                   

                                  That's exactly opposite of the point I'm advancing. It does not matter how many titles he wins, nor what his mainstream media reputation is, I will never like him or enjoy his success. I readily acknowledge he is a great player- he is the best player in the NBA now, and is one of the best ever. 

                                  His arrogance, which seems to extend beyond basketball, is unbearable. Maybe said a better way: I could imagine myself being friends with someone like Duncan; Lebron never.

                                   

                                  http://offthebench.n...ation-with-him/

                                   

                                  http://25.media.tumb...jlbgo1_1280.jpg



                                  #19 rocketrick

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                                    Posted 21 June 2013 - 10:17 PM

                                    There will always be Lebron haters. Only until he is gone from the game for awhile will some of those Lebron haters appreciate him for his accomplishments. I believe some of the arrogance you mention is due to all the negative press he's had to endure. Some see an air of confidence as outright arrogance. I felt the same way about Air Jordan at the time.



                                    #20 2016Champions

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                                    Posted 21 June 2013 - 10:30 PM

                                    There's a reason D-Mo couldn't get on the court before Morey had to basically just trade away the guys ahead of him to force it: McHale has to worry about his job and that means he has to worry about losing.  Pop plays young players whenever he wants. 

                                    There was a time when Popovich was notorious for not trusting his rookies. Between Manu Ginobili in 2002 and George Hill in 2008, Popovich used just one rookie of note--Beno Udrih in 2005.


                                    Debates are destructive as they present one-sided opinions and demolish reasoned arguments, whereas discussions are constructive and encourage the expression of opinion.

                                     

                                    Debate is the death of conversation.





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