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Yao Ming - Part 3

#1 User is offline   RedNinetyFour 

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    Posted 10 July 2011 - 09:58 PM

    In eight seasons with the Houston Rockets, Yao Ming averaged 19 points and 9.2 rebounds per game.  The 7'6 center shot 52% from the field and a sparkling 83% from the free throw line.  The first overall pick in the 2002 NBA Draft, Yao made eight All-Star game appearances and was an All-NBA selection five times.  He earned over $93million in salaries over the course of his career.


    What's most striking in reflecting back upon Yao's career is the good health he enjoyed in his first three seasons: the giant only missed a total of two games in those years at the time assuaging fears that a man his size could not endure the pounding of the NBA game.  The rejoicing was premature.  Yao went on to play more than 60 games only once in the next six years.


    Was Yao Ming's career a failure?  The bar is high for first overall selections and Yao's Rockets only passed the first round once during his time with the team.  Having said that, he will go down as the greatest 'giant' in the league's history, proving far more productive than any other man over 7'4 to have played the sport.


    Was Yao the right pick?  While he certainly fared better than Duke's Jay Williams--the man many believed in 2002 should have been the first overall selection--few would argue against Amare Stoudemire's body of success.  While Stoudemire himself has never been considered a true 'superstar', the power forward was vastly more productive than Yao over the course of his career.

    What's forgotten are the expectations Yao carried upon entering the league.  While taken with the first pick, he was not selected as a 'franchise savior.'  In those days, the Rockets belonged to Steve Francis and Cuttino Mobley and it was believed by many that if the core could remain healthy--Francis had missed the majority of the previous season--the team was already on track for the playoffs <em>without Yao. </em>Yao was picked to simply complement - to stretch the floor for the guards with his soft shooting range.  At the time, it was thought that anything more would be gravy.  Yao was picked to be, not the cornerstone, but one of many pieces to a developing championship core.  (The team at the time had huge hopes for <a title="the late Eddie Griffin" href="http://www.red94.net/houston-rockets-eddie-griffin/516/">the late Eddie Griffin</a>.)


    But Yao turned out to be far better than advertised--showing off an NBA-level postgame--and from there, our expectations became warped.  No one thought in '02 that he'd be virtually unguardable inside against single coverage. When we saw it, we wanted more.  We demanded more and he couldn't deliver.


    Yao was a conundrum.  He was the league's single most unstoppable force.  When receiving the ball in the paint, it was almost an automatic hoop.  Yet at the same time, he was so easily neutralized.  Simply putting a 6'8, athletic power forward in front of his body would force the Rockets to completely take Yao out of the game.  He would obliterate Dwight Howard head to head, but the likes of Al Harrington and Boris Diaw rendered him useless.


    <a title="Like former teammate Tracy McGrady" href="http://www.red94.net/houston-rockets-tracy-mcgrady-5/1108/">Like former teammate Tracy McGrady</a>, Yao's career ultimately boils down to a case of 'too litte, too late.'  By the time Rockets management surrounded him with a capable supporting cast, his body had failed him.  In the '05 and '07 playoffs, with stars healthy, Houston relied on the likes of Ryan Bowen, David Wesley, and Luther Head to play major roles.  Had the team had even one of Aaron Brooks, Carl Landry, or Luis Scola--Daryl Morey signature acquisitions--one could see those teams easily advancing to the Finals.


    The plan after surgery was to team Yao with a new star and retool the franchise with Yao still as its centerpiece but with a more balanced roster.  The team struck out last summer and Yao got hurt once again.  He has now announced his retirement.


    Questions abound: might Yao have stayed healthy had he not faced the demands of playing basketball year-round?  The NBA was taxing enough on his 7'5 frame - we forget that due to his national obligations, his body never got a break.  But to that question, and many more, we will never know the answer.  What is clear though is that his jersey will likely hang from the rafters at Toyota Center, the #11 never to be worn again.  As one of the greatest ambassadors this sport has ever seen, his case for the Hall will be made.  Despite not having brought success, Yao will be remembered as this franchise's third greatest center.


    The page is now turned for the Rockets, a divorce from an era.  McGrady is gone, and now, so is Yao, with that faintest of hopes for a return completely smothered.  They will pick up the pieces, as they have been doing, and continue the quest for a new star and a new block upon which to build.  One thing is for certain: whoever he is, whoever our new savior may be, he will not be nearly as unique a figure as was Yao Ming.

    <a href="http://www.red94.net/yao-ming-part-3/7093/"></a></p>
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    #2 Guest_KingJosh_*

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    Posted 11 July 2011 - 02:03 AM

    Rahat do you really think Stoudemire was the correct choice over yao? Even today I would still have taken yao 9 times out of ten, even with the power of hindsight.

    Amare has a current career average of 22/9, 4 pts better than yao - yet he is half the defensive presence of yao. His team's success has always been accompanined by 1st tier talent (Nash, J.johnson, Marion etc) and has had injury problems of his own. This year we saw amare attempt to lead his team by his own and only barely squeak into the playoffs in a piss weak Eastern confrence. There is denying that he is NOT a superstar. However when healthy, yao definitely WAS a superstar. 22 and 10 while anchoring a top 5 defence? Prime yao was a top 10 player, and a center at that.

    Scoring PF with no defence are a dime-a-dozen these days, hell the rockets aqcuired one for v.span. Give me 7 years of a transcendnet superstar center anyday.
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    #3 Guest_Rh rivera_*

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    Posted 11 July 2011 - 04:55 AM

    View PostKingJosh, on 11 July 2011 - 02:03 AM, said:

    Rahat do you really think Stoudemire was the correct choice over yao? Even today I would still have taken yao 9 times out of ten, even with the power of hindsight.

    Amare has a current career average of 22/9, 4 pts better than yao - yet he is half the defensive presence of yao. His team's success has always been accompanined by 1st tier talent (Nash, J.johnson, Marion etc) and has had injury problems of his own. This year we saw amare attempt to lead his team by his own and only barely squeak into the playoffs in a piss weak Eastern confrence. There is denying that he is NOT a superstar. However when healthy, yao definitely WAS a superstar. 22 and 10 while anchoring a top 5 defence? Prime yao was a top 10 player, and a center at that.

    Scoring PF with no defence are a dime-a-dozen these days, hell the rockets aqcuired one for v.span. Give me 7 years of a transcendnet superstar center anyday.


    this is nonsense. he played in 60 games only ONCE in the past 6 seasons. Amare has been one of the best 3 or 4 players in the NBA at his position, and has only missed one season because of injury. Also Amare will play for 5 or more seasons more.
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    #4 User is offline   Rahat Huq 

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      Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:04 AM

      Hmm - good debate.

      When healthy, I think you could make an argument for either guy. Yao anchored some of the best defenses in the NBA. At the same time, he's easily taken out of ballgames by fronting defenses. You can't take Amare Stoudemire out of a ballgame. (His WCF against the Spurs in '05 was historic.)

      Not taking out health, it's not even a debate. Amare stayed on the court; Yao could't.
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      #5 Guest_inpropagation_*

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      Posted 11 July 2011 - 08:32 AM

      View PostRahat Huq, on 11 July 2011 - 06:04 AM, said:

      You can't take Amare Stoudemire out of a ballgame.





      ummmm




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      #6 Guest_Cuttino M._*

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      Posted 11 July 2011 - 08:40 AM

      View PostRh rivera, on 11 July 2011 - 04:55 AM, said:

      this is nonsense. he played in 60 games only ONCE in the past 6 seasons. Amare has been one of the best 3 or 4 players in the NBA at his position, and has only missed one season because of injury. Also Amare will play for 5 or more seasons more.

      I wouldn't call it nonsense (except the part about Amare being a dime-a-dozen PF.. Amare, esp pre-microfracture, was a Force of Nature) considering fact that Amare no longer plays for the team that drafted him because of injury history, ie, uninsurable, potentially catastrophic knee and eye injury risk and gambling a max contract on such risk.

      Quality starting centers, as the Chuckwagon Experience shows us, are hard to find.
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      #7 Guest_Cuttino M._*

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      Posted 11 July 2011 - 08:50 AM

      View Postinpropagation, on 11 July 2011 - 08:32 AM, said:

      ummmm


      hee hee hee... you gotta love the Chuckwagon (just not starting at C).
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      #8 User is offline   Rahat Huq 

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        Posted 12 July 2011 - 12:30 AM

        View Postinpropagation, on 11 July 2011 - 08:32 AM, said:

        ummmm





        I knew someone was going to bring this up. Chuck Hayes' dominance of Amare is an anomaly. Just like Vernon Maxwell's dominance of Michael Jordan. Almost every guy has the one guy who gives him fits.

        There were numerous people who could take Yao out of a game.
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        #9 Guest_inpropagation_*

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        Posted 12 July 2011 - 05:54 AM

        on that note, I believe it
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        #10 Guest_wtflife_*

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        Posted 12 July 2011 - 11:47 PM

        I would say that Amare and Tmac probably beat Dallas. I loved Yao he was so unique, but the fact that Carlos Boozer could front him and basically remove him as an offensive presence really says what you need to know.

        I think Yao got everything out of his NBA career there was for him to get out of. He became more than he should have been through hard work, and perfection of various techniques. Amare is a far greater talent than Yao that has never put the effort in to become what he could. If Amare works hard stays healthy and he and Melo can take the Knicks to the finals of the eastern conference then he is the better choice, but that is far from guaranteed.

        I only require them to get to the eastern finals, because sadly I believe the NBA is no longer competitive for the next 3 seasons whenever they may happen. Until Wade is crucially injured I think the Heat will win title after title. They are a healthy Mike Miller or one other free agent away from walking through the league. Hoping I am wrong, but sad to think it is so.
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        #11 Guest_ripandrup_*

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        Posted 13 July 2011 - 12:34 AM

        If Boris Diaw "neutralized" Yao by fronting him, didn't any number of PFs "neutralize" Amare by scoring on him at will? Amare's turn against Tim Duncan in the '05 WCF was transcendent, but Duncan gave it right back to him (27 and 14 for Timmy in the series). By your logic, they both should have sat on the bench.

        Bottom line: if we re-did the draft, I'd take Amare over Yao. If the draft came with magic pills to keep everyone healthy, I'd still take Amare over Yao because, like the other commenter said, pre-microfracture Amare was a force of nature in a way that Yao never was (or even could be. There's a chance Amare could've fixed his defense, there's really no chance that Yao could've fixed his pick and roll coverage, for example.) But your continuted undervaluation of Yao says more about your beta male psychodramas than it does about Yao's performance on the court.

        Yao against Al Harrington: http://bkref.com/tiny/hJPZP

        Yao against Boris Diaw: http://bkref.com/tiny/moDlR

        Yao against Memo Okur: http://bkref.com/tiny/tVHgg
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        #12 Guest_hi_*

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        Posted 13 July 2011 - 06:57 AM

        If you are to just compare skills I'd say it's equal with Yao Ming winning on defense and Amare winning on more flexible offense.

        If you want to take everything into account and compare how much each player does to their organization, then to re-do the draft I'd take Yao for sure.. Amare was just as injury-prone as Yao upto last season. When he finally got healthy, he almost immediately left the suns leaving them nothing. Yao Ming also brought tons of money and fans into the rockets organization, something that Amare can never do.

        Bottom Line - Money is important, and you never want to get LeBron-ed.
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        #13 Guest_Lyfestyle_*

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        Posted 13 July 2011 - 01:14 PM

        I think the defensive comparison is less obvious, given that Yao was (mostly) coached by JVG and A'mare was (mostly) coached by D'Antoni. It's an apples and oranges comparison. You say Yao's was a top-5 defense, but it was also a horrific, awful offense. The reverse was true of A'mare's teams.

        No clear-thinking person would take 9 years with 1 playoff series win followed by a retirement over the numerous successes that A'mare's had and will continue to have for the next 5-6 years.
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        #14 User is offline   Stephen 

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          Posted 13 July 2011 - 04:18 PM

          There was no Yao-Amare debate at the time.
          Amare was not picked second,he was the SIXTH big man taken in the Draft,behind Nene among others.
          It's rather like debating whether the Rockets should have taken Luther Head or Monta Ellis.
          My what if is what if the Rockets had insisted on including Varejao(at time still unsigned 2 Rd pick by Orlando)in the trade. Having Varejao to spell Yao and Howard would have been huge and when Howard went out at end of season,Varejao could have stepped in at PF instead of Ryan Bowen. Personally,I believe w/Varejao the Rockets beat Dallas and much of subsequent Rocket history changes for the better.

          Would Amare have been the current Amare if drafted #1,out of High School,onto a Steve Francis led team?
          Would Les have signed JVG w/out the money Yao was pouring in to Rocket coffers? W/a core of Francis,Mobley and Amare,all fairly young,would Les have gone for a coach better know for teaching,perhaps a college coach over JVG(and less expensive as well).

          Assuming JVG was hired,in JVG's first season Amare was injured in Phoenix and missed 19 games. Just what kind of an impression would that make on JVG.(Factor in in the outstanding 7 SECONDS OR LESS book on the Suns there are multiple statements on the Sun's dissatisfaction w/Amare's rehab efforts.) That would have been a toxic brew w/JVG disliking Francis,Amare's desire for fame clashing w/Francis' attitude on Rockets being his and then the coaching staff wondering if Amare was disciplined enough to play in NBA.
          Meanwhile Yao goes to GS-a wet dream for GS ownership considering their market-and after backing up Dampier for a yr becomes GS Center. W/the Chinese income GS may well keep Arenas,doesn't need to trade Jamison and has an offensive fantasy feast in Arenas,Jason Richardson,Jamison and Yao.
          McGrady likely ends up being traded to GS as Orlando's Otis Smith(basketball knowledge behind Magic's Hockey GM)has deep ties to Arenas and McGrady,Yao and Jamison form the core of GS going forward.
          This means the Rockets are continuing forward w/a Francis,Mobley,Amare core for next few yrs as JVG and his players increasingly butt heads.After a couple of First Rd flameouts,the Rockets see Amare blow out his knee and are left facing serious questions about their future direction.

          Rahat,
          Yoa was mainly "taken" out of games by fronting. However,that rarely happened when McGrady was on the floor,as McGrady would drive to hoop and pass to Yao who would have his defender behind him. It worked extremely well when Aaron Brooks was the PG-which was more of a reflection of how poor Brooks was at feeding the post than Yao's inability to dominate.

          W/Yoa it's easy to forget how little top competition he had faced before coming to Rockets. While he had the fundamentals down pat,the experience of playing top competition was missing. Then when he came to Rockets the offense flowed thru first Francis,then McGrady. It wasn't until Yao's fourth yr that JVG asked McGrady to defer to Yao. Than we saw what Yao had become,an MVP-type,dominating player. If,if,if...if JVG had been retained and Yao had stayed healthy,Yao would have put up some pretty big numbers.
          When Adelman came in,he wanted to spread the offense around,open up the court for other players and move Yao out of low post.But at end of close games,Adelman went to Yao down low and that's where Rick wanted the ball to go.

          BTW,if you can,watch some of the Rockets/Suns games. There's a trend of Amare starting strong and being completely invisible as game goes on. Almost like he's been taken out of games ;)
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          #15 Guest_Cuttino M._*

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          Posted 13 July 2011 - 09:09 PM

          And let's look at the flip-side of this scenario as well... Even though Yao couldn't make it to half-court in 7 seconds or less, don't you think he gets that Suns team over the hump against the Spurs for a championship or 2? Slide Matrix to the 4, all sorts of athleticism and shooters on the wings, pound it down low with Yao when the game slows (something tells me Nash could get the ball to Yao, fronting defenders or not). How does anyone stop that?

          Yes, Amare is a force of nature--a human YouTube dunk machine--but Yao changes the game, opens things up for his teammates, forces defenses to change their strategy. ALL YOU NEED FOR Amare IS AN A-MINUS POST DEFENDER; Yao REQUIRES A TEAM DEFENSIVE STRATEGY! Who stops Yao 1-on-1? Rockets should've been able to exploit the fronter.

          Maybe you take Amare over Yao with their injury histories, but on the court, it's Yao, no question. If we had 2-3 years of a healthy Yao on the current Rockets team, this is not even a conversation. Amare:Yao::Dominique:Bird. Ergo, Yao > Amare
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          #16 User is offline   Stephen 

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            Posted 14 July 2011 - 02:06 AM

            We tend to overlook Morey had kicked the tires w/Amare several times and ultimately turned down a deadline deal as he didn't want to commit long-term to Amare at max level.(Esp w/Amare being uninsurable thru League Insurance w/Eye issue,as well as knees.)
            So in the revisionist Amare history,he prob gets traded to NY instead of McGrady,who likely wouldn't have been traded to Houston.
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