71 replies to this topic

[rocketrick]

Blake, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on how the All-Star players are selected. I absolutely would abhor the fans selecting the last 7 players. That would cause several worthy players from quite possibly making the All-Start team. I would imagine many top players have a bonus in their contracts for making the All-Star team. I do agree that Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant should be the starting guards for the West All-Star team and I believe enough in the fans of the NBA to vote those two players as starters. For sure Lin would make the All-Star team every year if the fans chose the last 7 players. It's pretty certain that the coaches will select only one of Harden and Lin and it seems pretty clear to me which of those 2 will make the All-Star team (the one with the beard).

I meant to say That would cause several worthy players from quite possibly NOT making the All-Star tema.

[rocketrick]

I think a more apt comparison than LeBron/Wade is the Ellis/Curry tandem they had in Golden State for a while. Both great offensive players but not great defenders (though one of them is a ball hawk), and the narrative was that they didn't really work together very well. Now, on the surface that doesn't sound like a particularly promising analogue to have - after all, Ellis was shipped out of Golden State because it just wasn't working for them there. But the difference is both Harden and Lin are much more willing passers than Ellis, who tended to dominate the ball and take inefficient shots. Monta had a great shooter next to him in Curry that he didn't use enough. Harden has a poor shooter next to him right now in Lin, but he has shown he isn't afraid to use him. So provided Lin can make himself a more dangerous threat on the outside, I think they can avoid the same fate as the Warriors' duo.

ST

That sounds reasonable on the surface, and probably a more apt comparison at this point. However, neither Ellis or Curry is a pure PG in my opinion. Both tend to be more valuable to their teams for their shooting, rather than their passing, skills. Harden is far superior in my opinion as a SG that can create shots for his teammates but he is certainly not as elite a shooter at this point in his career as Ellis or Curry. None or exacty known for the defensive skills either. Lin is the most effective of the 4 on the defensive end and ball hawking skills.

[blakecouey]

If anyone would take just a minute and look at the 2012-13 statistics, I think it would become clear that Harden is getting a pass while Lin is being overly criticized.

Harden 43.1% FG 33.3% 3-Pt 5.2 Assists/39.0 minutes 3.8 Turnovers/39.0 minutes

Lin 40.7% FG 30.3% 3-Pt 6.0 Assists/32.7 minutes 2.8 Turnovers/32.7 minutes

Not only that, but Harden is not nearly as effective in running a fastbreak as Lin is. Oftentimes, Harden finishes at the goal from a pass from Lin or Parsons, et al.

I'm not certain how one would find the stats for each player when the other is on the bench or not dressed to play.It doesn't seem like there have been very many minutes where Lin is on the floor while Harden is on the bench whereas it is common knowledge Harden has significant minutes on the court with Lin on the bench.

It's very disturbing to me that there are a few people on these boards ready to toss Lin overboard and the season is only 1/4 of the way through. Plus the Rockets trade for Harden was AFTER all their pre-season games were played. Just exactly how many practices have the Rockets had since the start of the Season? Very few.

It's OK to be critical of Lin but don't just give Harden a pass when his shooting touch is certainly nothing to brag about at this point. Lin would have easily had another 5-6 assists in the Knicks game had the open shooters (otten it was Harden) made their shots.

The thread is about Lin, which is why Harden is getting a pass and not being talked about for his inability to keep the ball in our possession.

Blake, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on how the All-Star players are selected. I absolutely would abhor the fans selecting the last 7 players. That would cause several worthy players from quite possibly making the All-Start team. I would imagine many top players have a bonus in their contracts for making the All-Star team. I do agree that Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant should be the starting guards for the West All-Star team and I believe enough in the fans of the NBA to vote those two players as starters. For sure Lin would make the All-Star team every year if the fans chose the last 7 players. It's pretty certain that the coaches will select only one of Harden and Lin and it seems pretty clear to me which of those 2 will make the All-Star team (the one with the beard).

You really think those last two spots are going to totally overthrow the balance of who is and isn't deserving?
Right now, Nowitzski, Stoudemire, and Rose have almost 200k votes so far, and have played a total of ZERO minutes this year. Keep in mind this isn't the first time this has happened, as I believe Yao(and I'm sure others) have been voted in without playing as well.
I have no problem with the fans seeing who they want to see, but being an All-Star should mean you are the top of your game, and have nothing to do with popularity.
@RBF- I don't care who votes for who, whether it's Asian, African, American, or European. The only reason I said what I'd change about the process is because I was asked.

[rockets best fan]

rocketrick: j lin is not a defensive wizzard..........not even close. watch his defense against quick guards. it's not a pretty site. quick players give lin fits. his defense is average at best on a good day.
blakecouey: sorry all nba fans don't agree with you on who should and shouldn't be in the allstar game. sure I might pick a few different players if I was the only one voting, but I respect the right of other fans too. my comment was not to imply you may be bias it was to make the point that the game belongs to the fans whoever they may be. they pay the money. they should be able to see who they want for their money. its the 1 time a year they get input. don't begrudge them that.

[Alituro]

Rocketrick: Nice try on convincing us Harden should be scrutinized just as hard, but you conveniently left out one important statistic in your argument and that's PPG. So if Harden is averaging one more turnover per game than Lin, but puts up twelve more points, that 1 turnover costs us 3 points at worst but about 1 point on average. Lin averages more assists because he's the damn PG. What's worrisome is our SG is getting almost as much assists as our PG and that should not happen, and It's not because Harden's assist rate is particularly high for his position, but Lin's is way too low for a starting PG. You're argument is about as ludicrous as someone defending Chalmers by saying "Well Wade's not perfect either". You need to polish up on your straw man.

[SamC]

Lin averages more assists because he's the damn PG. What's worrisome is our SG is getting almost as much assists as our PG and that should not happen, and It's not because Harden's assist rate is particularly high for his position, but Lin's is way too low for a starting PG.

You do realize that Harden has the ball for most of the game, right? It's not even a 50/50 split. More like 65/35. Harden does a great job finding open guys but he's a shooter first, passer second. Also, Harden plays for most of the game.

Edit: Forgot to mention, everyone would have higher assist rates if Asik was able to finish at the rim.

[Alituro]

xsamc1: Yes I realize that, but I would venture to say that the difference between the usage of both players is directly related to Lin's dependability. If he were to be more consistent then those numbers would even out. We're trying to win, why should we spend 48 minutes coddling someone's inconsistencies when there's a player right next to him that's always ready to get it done? Have Lin try to catch fire with the second unit initially instead of holding Harden back for Lin's sake.

Oh and I agree about Asik, but looking at it, and you got to give it to him because of his huge elevation in usage (Most Improved Player anyone?) his adj. FG% is .486, which is right there with Duncan and Al Jefferson, and is pretty much par for the position which typically varies between .450 and .600. I've noticed the big fella going hard to the rim lately instead of the soft little layups. I think his biggest detriment down there is his inability to secure the ball on the entry passes, i.e. butterfingers.

[Sir Thursday]

Guys, if you're trying to adjust for the amount of time a player has the ball in his hands when talking about turnovers, then you should be looking at turnover rate, which calculates the percentage of possessions a player uses the ball which result in a turnover. Hoopdata is a good source for this statistic. Here are the turnover percentages for the Rockets so far this year:

• Omer Asik: 20%
• Cole Aldrich: 16.6%
• Jeremy Lin: 13.3%
• Toney Douglas: 12.9%
• James Harden: 12.4%
• Carlos Delfino: 11.8%
• Chandler Parsons: 10.5%
• Marcus Morris: 9%
• Patrick Patterson: 8.9%
• Terrence Jones: 6.7%
• Greg Smith: 6.1%

So on that basis, Lin turns the ball over slightly more than Harden. However, in any case I think the turnover question is irrelevant. Many very good PGs have high turnover rates (eg. Steve Nash has never had a season with <20% Turnover Rate), and I definitely remember reading a study which showed little to no correlation between the number of turnovers in a PG's first two seasons and long term success at the position.

ST

[Cooper]

Nash may have had 20%+ turnover but he also had double digit assists.However Lin and harden do well enough right now in the turn over area and should continue to get better.

[rocketrick]

The thread is about Lin, which is why Harden is getting a pass and not being talked about for his inability to keep the ball in our possession.

I absolutely get that this thread is about Jeremy Lin but I don't think that alone qualifies as a good enough reason to give Harden a pass because in this instance a few people are blasting Lin for his supposedly high turnover ratio and terrible shooting percentage.

I love Harden but I also like Lin very much and I am one of those who believe they can eventually figure it out and become one of those rare dynamic duo guards.

Still, if people are going to criticize Lin's game (supposedly too high turnover rate and too low shooting percentage), all I'm saying is those people should consider Harden's turnover rate and shooting percentage and when doing so realizing they are actually quite similar to Lin on a per minute basis.

I get it that there will always be Jeremy Lin detractors just like there were always Hakeem Olajuwon detractors. That comes with the territory. But don't disparage Lin by making false claims and exagerrating stats such as turnover ratio and shooting percentage. Just come out and say you absolutely hate Lin no matter what and you want __________________ to be the Rockets point guard.

[Alituro]

Who could possibly criticize a player who scores 33 points on 12 shots AND led the team in assists?! We're talking about a guy, Lin (on a good night for him) gets 18 points on 12 shots. They are not really even on the same planet talent-wise. But, I will hand it to Lin, he seems like he's building a head of steam and starting to figure out how to mesh with our new franchise cornerstone. He's been quite impressive this week, let's just hope he keeps it up. If he keeps it up, our team will be a force to reckon with real soon.

[blakecouey]

I absolutely get that this thread is about Jeremy Lin but I don't think that alone qualifies as a good enough reason to give Harden a pass because in this instance a few people are blasting Lin for his supposedly high turnover ratio and terrible shooting percentage.

I love Harden but I also like Lin very much and I am one of those who believe they can eventually figure it out and become one of those rare dynamic duo guards.

Still, if people are going to criticize Lin's game (supposedly too high turnover rate and too low shooting percentage), all I'm saying is those people should consider Harden's turnover rate and shooting percentage and when doing so realizing they are actually quite similar to Lin on a per minute basis.

I get it that there will always be Jeremy Lin detractors just like there were always Hakeem Olajuwon detractors. That comes with the territory. But don't disparage Lin by making false claims and exagerrating stats such as turnover ratio and shooting percentage. Just come out and say you absolutely hate Lin no matter what and you want __________________ to be the Rockets point guard.

There's no reason to attempt to put words into my mouth. At no point have I said I hate Lin, also I'd love for him to be our point guard(although I think we could find a better fit). I would like for him to improve, whether it's by becoming a more efficient scorer, passer, or overall facilitator.
A few questions I have for you, do you think Lin is fine the way he's been? Do you believe he's earned/earning his contract by his current play? Do you think Lin is better than Harden?(this is a real question, based on your prior responses it warrants asking).

[Drew in Abilene]

I don't want the Rockets to trade Lin this season. He and Harden have meshed well at times, and they're both relatively young with high ceilings. They aren't consistently good together yet, but that kind of chemistry can take time, especially for two players used to being fairly ball-dominant. They have proven that it is possible for them to both light it up and to do so efficiently. Both are good distributors, and I think both do a good job of making secondary/role players better. I feel like it would be too hasty to give up on this tandem at this point, and would like to see what they can do after spending a season and a training camp together. I think they can be something special.

[AlphaBeta]

geez, every time I read Red94 there seems to be some extra criticism or knocks on the team or Lin. Relax. It's a quarter of the way through. Since the acquisition of Harden, people have gone from not expecting much to playoffs or bust. Relax. None of you people seem to have any patience, particularly with Lin. The guy has barely played 2000 minutes and he should be traded right away? (facepalm) Here's a thought, give hime time to grow and develop, like any young player. How about 3 years? Is that too much to ask? Good grief. Same goes for the rest of the Rockets. Youngest team in the league will take time to mesh and gel. They'll be better next year and even better the year after. You can't do that with a revolving door of players. Everyone needs to relax and give this team a few years under their belt to gain experience and learn to play together and they might surprise you. One last thing, RELAX. Patience is a virtue none of you seem to have.

[Ostrow]

I don't want to beat a dead horse and say the same thing as everyone else has but... He is still really young. The team is just learning to play together. They are all really young. Additionally, the two biggest problems right now with Lin seem to be his turnovers and his shooting. Not turning the ball over comes with age. The more he plays on this level the less he'll turn the ball over. Shooting takes a lot of work to improve, but it can be done. Jason Kidd is the prime example. Now I've watching/played against this kid for years. He has gotten better every year. I believe that he will get better and we have to give him time. I'm not someone who is particularly loves Lin, but he deserves a chance.

[Mario Peña]

I am going to repeat what I wrote earlier in this thread and what the last few posters are trying to point out, give Lin time. Once again, some of you act like basketball fanatics on a message board with nothing else to write about but trading some Rocket or trading for some player we will never get. Give this team and Lin some time to make mistakes, correct them and develop. Just because we have had a revolving door doesn't mean it should continue. Now is the time to start aiming for stability, something I believe some of us Rocket fans have forgotten about. Seriously, this is Red94, aren't we smarter and more rationale than some of the trash you find on other basketball forums. I have not seen anyone pose one good reason as to why we should trade Jeremy Lin.

[iceman90]

Lin has all star potential. You cannot score 38 against the Spurs otherwise. Is he an all star now? Definitely not. Might he be an all star in the future? Maybe... or maybe not. But people who say that a 24 year old who has had awesome games against great teams does not have all star potential are deluding themselves.

Now let me clarify, I feel Lin has been playing badly with the exception of a few games. But, IMO this was as much to do as the coaching as well as his lack of a mid range jumper. Is he a good fit with Harden? Till the last 2 games definitely not. Its on him and the coaching staff to try to mesh both of them.

Give this team and Lin, in particular, time to make mistakes and learn from them.

[DaDakota]

Lin was signed as a marketing move while the Rockets rebuilt.

Then they got Harden - which changed everything.

While Lin is not as good as Lowry or Dragic, he is pretty decent.

No need to trade him, let him play out his time and let's see if his super intellect helps develop his jumpshot.

DD

[wintee]

I cannot believe how people dont see the talent and skills that j-lin have. YES, harden is a scoring machine, YES, asik is the defense guy, YES, J-LIN IS THE GUY THAT SET UP EVERYBODY FOR EASY ASSIST AND CAN LEAD THE TEAM IF HARDEN IS OUT. J-lin has done a very GREAT JOB with all the intangable for the Rockets. Its very hard to find a guy like J-lin , the Rockets thinks FARTER than some of you thinks. As far as J-lin games goes, he is doing a GREAT JOB. How many players breaking record out of college and breaking record as a starting in the NBA, a few ,and J-lin is one of em. Few more year, he will be a SUPERSTAR, I DONT CARE IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IT. how may years do you think Kobe, Durant , Melo or whoever become a superstar. YOU JUST SOUND LIKE ONE OF THEM COACHES THAT NEVER BELIEVE THAT J-LIN CANT MAKE IT TO THE NBA.

[wintee]

And one more thing, some of you here talking about turn over, do you watch the rockets game or just watch stats , or you guys just listen to other people advise? Most game harden and asik have more t.o than lin, and people still complain about lin t.o. IF YALL JUST J-LIN HATER, JUST SAY SO, basketball wise, i dont you know yall that SMART.