67 replies to this topic

[Chai]

Until he can get his team a playoff spot. I'll maintain my stance that he's nothing more than a stat padding star rather than an all star. I'm not saying he's a bad player. In fact, I agree that if he's your second option, your team would be amazing. But I don't imagine Howard came to Houston to become a 3rd option on offense

[Buckko]

It all has to do with team play, not a solo player Chai. The only time the T-Wolves have a big win is when Love has an ungodly good game. Everyone else on that team is just mediocre.

 

The problem about Love and the rockets though is you would have a big 3 where 2/3 of it play terrible defense while the Miami big 3 all can play great D. It just wouldn't be a great combination, we're already #2 in offense so there is only so much that can improve us on that end but weakening our D further won't help us at all. 

[thejohnnygold]

Love's defense has improved and any publicly available metric reflects that.

 

Basketball-reference.com

 

82games.com

 

mysynergysports.com

 

Now, I haven't watched much Minnesota basketball this season so perhaps those stats are masking something and don't reflect what is really happening on the court.  With that in mind, here is Minnesota's SB Nation fan forum....quite similar to ours, actually.  LINK

 

They have posts boasting of the greatness of Love side by side with posts about needing to trade him.  (sound familiar?)  If anything were a valid reason to get Love in Rocket Red it's his passing.  According to this statistical analysis, Love is the 2nd best passing non-guard in the league behind only Lebron James.  The article goes on to note that his teammates convert on only 48% of his assist opportunities--which they imply is low, but I have no barometer for this.

 

Either way, Love's long been known as a great passer and defenses would have a tough time doubling him with Dwight on the other side.  There's a reason Nik Pekovic averages 18 points a game and it's not his post moves.  Dwight would feast.

 

A closing thought on the matter.  Given that we have so many defensive deficiencies and there is no guarantee they will get resolved why not add Love and simply create an offensive juggernaut?  (For the record, I am just playing Devil's Advocate here.  I like T-Jones and would be averse to trading away our depth for Love.  I would understand if Morey did it, but I'm happy with Jones.)

[Chai]

I would disagree that everyone else on that team is mediocore. Pekovic is a solid if unspectacular starting centre. Martin while aging is still a dangerous threat from beyond the arc. Rubio can't shoot, but his defense is above average and he's still a gifted passer. Corey Brewer is your standard 3 and D wing.

 

Maybe it's just me but I really don't see how Minnesota cannot get above .500. On paper, one would assume that they'd at least be better than the Denver Nuggets and on par with the Mavs.

 

Also... with Love's passing, I don't think Love will be as great as a passer in the Rockets system. Rick Adelman employs a motion offense where it emphasizes passing from the bigs (Webber, Divac, Miller). I have no doubt that Love is a great passer, but it wouldn't be fully utilized in our current iso-Harden, post up Dwight, and PnR system.

[redfaithful]

It could result from coach Adelman's system. It's a good system for an open game, so when it clicks his teams roll to big victories. However, if the defense takes away enough (as happens towards the end of close games), it totally fails. That's why Minnesota has large margin wins and low margin losses, with the bottom line being under .500.

[Buckko]

Love's defense has improved and any publicly available metric reflects that.

 

Basketball-reference.com

 

82games.com

 

mysynergysports.com

 

Now, I haven't watched much Minnesota basketball this season so perhaps those stats are masking something and don't reflect what is really happening on the court.  With that in mind, here is Minnesota's SB Nation fan forum....quite similar to ours, actually.  LINK

 

They have posts boasting of the greatness of Love side by side with posts about needing to trade him.  (sound familiar?)  If anything were a valid reason to get Love in Rocket Red it's his passing.  According to this statistical analysis, Love is the 2nd best passing non-guard in the league behind only Lebron James.  The article goes on to note that his teammates convert on only 48% of his assist opportunities--which they imply is low, but I have no barometer for this.

 

Either way, Love's long been known as a great passer and defenses would have a tough time doubling him with Dwight on the other side.  There's a reason Nik Pekovic averages 18 points a game and it's not his post moves.  Dwight would feast.

 

A closing thought on the matter.  Given that we have so many defensive deficiencies and there is no guarantee they will get resolved why not add Love and simply create an offensive juggernaut?  (For the record, I am just playing Devil's Advocate here.  I like T-Jones and would be averse to trading away our depth for Love.  I would understand if Morey did it, but I'm happy with Jones.)

Offensive juggernauts fail in the playoffs, there as been only one team to win a championship in the last decade with a D outside the top 10.

[thejohnnygold]

@Chai--Adelman's system requires skilled passers--it does not make good passers out of just anybody.  Love's interior passing and inside-out passing would be an improvement.  Love can also be the point man on pick n rolls--he is excellent at that according to mysynergy.

 

@Buccko--I know this all too well.  However, I don't think any of those teams have had an "eraser" like Dwight roaming the middle.  Plus, as my previous post noted--Love is actually playing defense now which means our front court would be solid.

 

Also, I will repeat that I do not want this--just playing Devil's Advocate.  I still contend that the only move we should make (if any) would be for an elite passing PG.  Other than that we should ride the horses we've got.

[Chai]

JG. Allow me to clear up what I said. I do believe Love is a skilled passer, but he wouldn't be properly utilized in the Rocket's system that relies on penetration from our attack guards.

[Buckko]

Even though this is off topic, we still have to mentio about how to get an elite passing and jump shooting PG who can mesh well with ball dominant harden but I did like the last game where harden didn't seem to force anything and there was much better ball movement with multiplayers controlling it.

[thejohnnygold]

JG. Allow me to clear up what I said. I do believe Love is a skilled passer, but he wouldn't be properly utilized in the Rocket's system that relies on penetration from our attack guards.

 

 

Even though this is off topic, we still have to mentio about how to get an elite passing and jump shooting PG who can mesh well with ball dominant harden but I did like the last game where harden didn't seem to force anything and there was much better ball movement with multiplayers controlling it.

 

This presumes that the Rockets and the Coaching Staff would stubbornly refuse to adapt to the talent they have--which as McHale has both said, and shown, they would adapt.

 

As far as ball-dominance goes--I don't buy it.  I don't view Harden as the megalomaniac some seem to.  In Harden's last season in OKC (his most efficient) he played the majority of his minutes alongside Westbrook and Durant--Yes, he spent some time leading the second unit, but compared to the rest it is a fraction of how much he played with Westbrook/Durant. (LINK).

 

We all know Harden's stats from that season were excellent, but his sixth man role was slightly exaggerated.  Check the minutes.  He played 31.4 mpg.  A similar amount to what Lin does as our "sixth man".  It doesn't mean reserve player.  It means reserve leader as well as part time in the starting unit.

 

The point is I disagree with any assertion that Harden cannot co-exist with another ball-dominant guard.  My assertion, which is backed up by the stats and the eye test, is that he is even more efficient and has the energy to play a little tougher on D when paired with a guard like this.

 

Now, some will counter that he has acquired a taste for being the "alpha".  Maybe.  Maybe not.  I think he would welcome an elite passing PG with open arms as it frees him of the burden of making the offense go while diverting some defensive attention from him.

 

Bonus feature: now we have someone who can get Howard the ball properly and can set up our 3 pt. shooters properly.  It's not that I dislike Lin or Beverley.  It is just my view on what this team would benefit from most as far as upgrades go.  Now, acquiring one is a whole different story.

 

I'll probably get killed for this suggestion, but Steve Blake is a FA after this season.  I've always been a fan of his game, and I think he would fit beautifully within this group.

 

In 2015, Rondo (which still makes me cringe to consider, but it keeps making more and more sense) is a free agent as well as Dragic (player option).  At this point, Lin is off the books (of course he may have developed to a point we want to keep him).

 

My preference would be John Wall, but the Wizards wisely locked him up through 2018.  Same with Chris Paul.  No way they trade those guys.

 

Greivis Vasquez could be let go after this season, or would be available after 2015.  I'm not sold on him as I just haven't seen him play that much, but he did rack up a ton of assists last season in New Orleans. 

 

The bottom line is you are right that acquiring a player like this is not easy.  Andre Miller has been brought up multiple times as a possibility to fill this role.  That doesn't excite me very much.

 

Getting back to Kevin Love--I would prefer we didn't trade for him; although, Rockets Best Fan made a compelling trade proposal the other day that wasn't too shabby.  My only concern is we lose some depth--especially at point guard.  Still, with Love in the fold we could dredge up a pg from somewhere that would make this work.

 

Beverley, Harden, Parsons, Love, and Dwight Howard.  That's practically 3/5 of the West Starting All-Star Team (if Blake Griffin wasn't more marketable than Love).  Go check out the shot charts.  Love and Parsons can play on the right side (where they dominate) inside/out while Howard and Harden take the left side inside/out with Bev/whoever up top.  The defense simply cannot cheat and if they do they will regret it.

 

Nothing against Terrence Jones, but if you can push that trade through I think you do it.  One drawback is the cupboard might be a little bare once everyone's contract expires as we gave up quite a few draft picks in the process.  Worry about that while you're shining your championship trophies

[timetodienow1234567]

LMA deserves to start over both Griffin and Love

[thejohnnygold]

LMA deserves to start over both Griffin and Love

 

That's fair.  Can't argue one bit.

[RudyT1995]

LMA deserves to start over both Griffin and Love

 

Yes, if ASG starters were based on on-court performance alone.  

Edited by RudyT1995, 14 January 2014 - 10:27 PM.

[Losthief]

@ jg, good posts, very informative and tks for the links

 

As for the defensive weakness of the Houston Rockets, one of our biggest weaknesses is defensive rebounding. KLove would help that, bottom line. Also he would just be tjones 2.0 minus the blocks (which make tjones get out of postion and lead to fouls honestly at this point as he learns how to play TEAM defence versus one on one.). KLove grabs more boards and actually shoots from the outside extremely well and is more athletic than most think. He also weighs enough to guard true pf in the post.

 

As for JLin versus rubio, if you've watched the wolves, or even read much about them, rubio's biggest weakness is an inability to finish at the rim, not his outside shooting. Anyone on our roster really good at finishing at the rim that plays point guard? Thats why Minny would be interested in Lin.

 

I agree, it is a steep price to pay, but KLove is 25 years old, tjones is 22 years old, if your telling me tjones is 100% going to be at Klove's level in 3 years, then don't do it, but I would still contend even with that low probability playing out, over the course of the next 10 years (aka Harden and Howard's prime) Klove would outperform tjones (especially in the next 3-5 years that Howard will be dominant). Thats why I would make the trade.

 

Also @ jg, I think a outside point guard we could look at for at least the backup spot (behind either bevelry or lin (whomever we keep out of the two) is jameer nelson. He's due 8 mil next year, but its non-guareenteed and I have a hard time believing Orlando picks that up. So if he gets cut/waived he could be a guy we get for 20 min a game who knows how to play with Howard and ball dominant wings (vince carter and hedu). I wouldn't mind picking him up as a back-up pg. Also I like him alot more than Vasquez. Vasquez is too slow laterally, which I think is part of Harden's definsive problems too, you put those two guys together I think it might get ugly.

Edited by Losthief, 15 January 2014 - 03:55 AM.

[Cooper]

Someone who could backup both 2/3 spots seems like the most pressing need to me. Garcia and brewer can't get it done. Pg Is something to address when lins contract is up(keep him/let him go/trade whatever) and 2015 is also probably the last time we have meaningful cap space if they want to make a significant roster change without relinquishing major assets.

[Chai]

I think my general take is that if TJones can develop and provide you even 60% of what KLove does, around 12 points, 8 boards, 1.5 blocks, while expanding his range and playing team defense as well as acting as a weak side shot blocker, I would not pursue Love.

 

With Harden, Dwight already on the books, and Parsons likely getting around 10mil a year, you're paying around 40 mil for 3 starters already. Love would command another 17-18 mil a year. As JG pointed out, we'll be extremely thin in other positions... and we don't have a LeBron James that can play 1-5 to cover those weaknesses. As many have mentioned, I would much rather sign a capable 3 and D player like Sefolosha (I don't think Thunder have the cap space to extend him).

[Buckko]

If we get a pass first PG, he has to be a great jumpshooter or it kills all offensive spacing. Ex.1 Rubio   Ex.2 Boston's offensive rating actually improved when rondo tore his ACL.  Same thing with Wall until he develops his 3pt shot.

 

We also can't rush this subject, low post passing is a lost art and our players need time to try and give them a chance to develop it before shaking things up. 

[Incubus2803]

i havent been reading the threads, but i think this would do it

 

http://espn.go.com/n...tradeId=lpcyhdj

 

who says no to that?  Boston gets the big man they want, dump some salary and make themselves worse for this coming draft (they couldnt muster any points with that lineup).  boston gets a 2-way wing player and youth/potential.

 

we would obviously have to give up first round pick(s) as well.  not to mention we have several 2nd round picks to offer

[Incubus2803]

also, sure we would go over the cap after signing parsons this summer, but alexander isnt afraid to pay to field a winner.  and that roster is something worth paying for.  besides that, casspi, garcia and brooks all have options for future years.  bev and smith have multiple years left.  and morey is king of digging up bargains.  not to mention that roster would make us a destination for the veteran ring-chasers that flock to contenders.

[thejohnnygold]

If we get a pass first PG, he has to be a great jumpshooter or it kills all offensive spacing. Ex.1 Rubio   Ex.2 Boston's offensive rating actually improved when rondo tore his ACL.  Same thing with Wall until he develops his 3pt shot.

 

We also can't rush this subject, low post passing is a lost art and our players need time to try and give them a chance to develop it before shaking things up. 

 

I disagree that they have to be a "great jumpshooter"--just reliable.  Avery Johnson, Jason Kidd, and Derek Fisher were all reliable--not great.

 

John Wall (who is pretty much out of the conversation anyways as Washington is not letting go of him) is currently shooting 31.3% from long range--not great, but given everything else it's enough and he is likely to continue improving.

 

Everyone seems to have forgotten that Rondo was aware of his shooting woes and had been steadily improving his shot.  I recall him making quite a few good shots before he got injured--including some clutch ones.  From NBA.com: His Shot Charts.  You can see his improvement from one season to the next.  Here is his last season:

 

 

He is a pretty solid shooter from 20' and his range is expanding.  I also believe our "system" would suit him quite well.  Freestyle offense is his bread and butter.  He will be surrounded by scorers and finishers.  I think the offense will be fine, plus he adds the benefit of high-end defense on the perimeter.  I think our turnovers would decrease, our net defense will increase, and our net offense will become more efficient due to the good looks he can create for everyone.

 

He is a bit like Russell Westbrook.  By that I mean he bends defenses.  It's not Westbrook's stellar shooting that makes him so devastating--it's his ability to force defenders to get out of position and then make the right pass.  Actually, in this regard he may be better than Westbrook.

 

It's all speculation until we see them on the court together and that won't be anytime soon (if ever)--it's more the idea of a player like that than Rondo himself.

 

As for developing our own guys--I agree that this is entirely possible and I did allude to that earlier.  Lin could certainly reach a serviceable level in this regard--I don't think he has it in him to reach that elite tier, but he doesn't need to for us to succeed.

 

Getting back to Love again--a player like him can generate a similar effect if (IF!) we were to run the offense through him in a high post/low post way.  I always expected Gasol and Howard to work well in this way, but it never really seemed to happen.  With cutters, spot-up shooters, and finishers all around plus his own efficiency in the post I think our offense could perform quite well.